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To want to flounce my current church...

(123 Posts)
trustissues75 Mon 04-Feb-13 03:55:03

and to point out to them that praying for LGBT couples be denied marriage like everyone else and that they should be happy with civil unions is akin to telling African Americans in the 50's to be happy they got their own water fountain?

And also want to tell them what a pile of fucking hypocrits they are?

trustissues75 Mon 04-Feb-13 08:28:51

And also..I guess Rosa Parks should have been glad that she at least had a designated seat on the bus? Or that there were at least schools for blacks? of hell...damned ungrateful people...we let them live on our plantation for free damnit!!!!

Why should people who are 'different' have less civil liberties than the next person? Why are people so threatened by it? What IS the threat?

It's bollocks.

marriedinwhite Mon 04-Feb-13 08:31:08

Soo pleased we have an enlightened lady priest. I would be looking for a new church too. A church should be liberal enough to allow the congretation, its community, to review the facts and reach its own decision. Thankfully my church looks at the scriptures and deduces they were written at a point in time where all the variables were different than today and accepts the fact that mankind has built up a wealth of knowledge since both creation and Christ.

Jesus would have denied nobody. God made us all. Neither would want another human being to be denied the rights available to all the others.

I find it interesting, in my experience, that the more liberal and intellectually searching views tend to prevail where the worship is traditional (higher Anglican) than where the worshsip is more relaxed and modern (evangelical/pentecostal). That provides and interesting comparison and paradox ime. Where it seems more informal, there is an assumption the underlying values are more liberal. They aren't but the charisma seems to sweep people along rather than the facts or the opportunity for intellectual debate where the views of all are considered and valued.

GinAndSlimlinePlease Mon 04-Feb-13 08:33:36

gosh, I totally agree with you op and ohfunny.

I've just joined a new church and they are taking an anti gay marriage p.o.v. It makes me see red. It isn't at all in line with the teachings of the gospels about love. it makes the church seem bigoted. In fact, it is bigoted.

Luckily so far it's been confined to one prayer angry and some leaflets. which my dh stopped me from binning/tearing down

What makes me angry is that the church buildings are used by lots of non Christian. They are getting entirely the wrong message about christianity.

I think I might email the priest.

firesidechat Mon 04-Feb-13 08:39:09

As a christian I do have mixed feelings about this.

However pretty sure that you can't compare marriage to stoning. Marriage between a man and a woman has been the norm and the law in this country for centuries. It's not just a religous matter and it's not only religous people who have some concerns. It is a big change and not everyone is going to welcome it with open arms. In lots of cases I'm sure it's not triggered by homophobia either.

I also think some churches may be worried that they will have to marry homosexuals against their conscience.

Don't think this issue is as simple as some people would like it to be.

marriedinwhite Mon 04-Feb-13 08:43:04

Churches will not be obliged to conduct gay marriages. I prefer to think of it as conducting marriage between two people who love each other - I don't recall dh and I being referred to as heterosexuals when we married.

trustissues75 Mon 04-Feb-13 08:44:09

Fireside

I realise that to some it is a big change and understand that some churches are not going to want to be forced to marry LGBT couples...and I fully support their right to do that because it is their right to not have their beliefs infringed upon (though you could start to argue that if that's allowed for churches then Drs should be allowed to refuse patients based on sexual orientation etc etc and the whole thing unravels out of control)

However, I do not support the Churches in thinking they have a God given right to force their personal and collective beliefs on others. Who the HELL do they think they are?

I don't believe it is a simple issue....

I want to move churches - I feel this congregation is hypocritical - 'we love you, as long as you are like us and think exactly like us'....can't abide it.

I live in Leicester....anyone know of a good church with a good active children's ministry?

JakeBullet Mon 04-Feb-13 08:48:24

YANBU at all trust.

Our priest spoke about this yesterday but it was obvious that he felt uncomfortable about doing so. He said about three times that he would welcome anyone who felt unhappy about the church's stance to come and meet him for a private talk. After his homily he spent about a minute just with his head bowed in prayer....he obviously does not feel its right and nor do I. I am in the Catholic Church though which is about 100 years behind everyone else.hmm.

I am not gay but I have friends who are both in and out of the church. The ones out of the church frankly couldn't care less what the church thinks but I worry far more about my gay friends IN the church. Our priest says love should be celebrated in all it's forms and he doesn't care if that's gay or heterosexual love. However he also has to toe the Vatican line etc so it's a hard line for him to cross.

I don't agree with the church, I did not sign the letters to the coalition which the local Bishop has prepared and I will be talking to one of the priest about this.

firesidechat Mon 04-Feb-13 08:53:22

I want to move churches - I feel this congregation is hypocritical - 'we love you, as long as you are like us and think exactly like us'....can't abide it.

trustissues75 - this is one of the reasons that I don't belong to a church anymore. I ended up feeling that I and my family just didn't fit in anymore. That and total burnout too.

My general experience is that C of E churches are more tolerant of different opinions, but even that varies.

beals692 Mon 04-Feb-13 08:54:56

"Has anyone seen that clip of the minister who stands and makes a speech denouncing gay marriage and then stops half way through to say he has the wrong notes and what he just read was a speech about the need to continue black/white segregation? It's brilliant. Must find link..."

I think this is the one you mean:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49QFe9qomC4

MaryBS Mon 04-Feb-13 08:58:49

YANBU. There is a church local to me in our diocese that I avoid. Last year a friend who goes to that church circulated a link on FB for a petition against LGBT marriage, on the recommendation of that church. The same church that was horrible to me and my autistic son AND rejected my attempts at Christian mediation. Its never just the one issue they are judgemental on.

Thankfully my own church is a lot more tolerant (even if some of the congregation aren't).

trustissues75 Mon 04-Feb-13 09:05:32

fireside

I'm sorry you've not been able to find a church in line with your values. It's frustrating.

Going back to your original post - you mention about others outside of the church being opposed to it too..on what grounds? How does it threaten marriage between a man and a woman? I've actually heard people BLAME the LGBT community for ruining marriage already...but how? How are they accountable for that? Since when did a couple's responsibility to each other and their relationship have anything to do with anyone else's sexual orientation and their right to be who they were born as with all the civil liberties of anyone else? I know my marriage didn't break down because of the gay couples a passed down town - no, that was because I married a personal with huge character and personality flaws and because of my own failings not to spot the signs/ignore them just so I could live the fairytale. My marriage failed because I didn't understand love.

There have been a lot of things in hour history that we've had difficulty abandoning just because of dogma, not because of rational thought - allowing women to vote? read even? It is still a widely held belief amongst many people that women who were raped must have been asking for it (I think the conviction rates for rapists actually brought to trial says it all) but just because it is a widely held belief, should we not challenge it? Isn't it a violation of civil liberties to rape someone?

You could try the Unitarian church, there's one in Leicester, I used to go to the one in Hinckley.
Look them up, I can't do a link as on phone smile

trustissues75 Mon 04-Feb-13 09:13:38

Oh Belas!! Thank you for finding and posting that link. I actually cried. How do I get that man over here to set up a church in Leicester. That's exactly how I felt and thought when my pastor broke into fervent prayer...I felt I was transported to 1950's America and was witnessing an argument against African American's being treated equally...to me it's exactly the same argument.

trustissues75 Mon 04-Feb-13 09:14:59

Beals...sorry...not Belas....my typing is terrible this morning...must get some tea.

Monster...I've been looking into the Unitarian church and thought I might try out the one in Leicester next weekend. Do you still live in the Hinckley area?

trustissues75 Mon 04-Feb-13 09:16:39

Oh and the person that asked...it's Living Rock Church. I really thought it was a good place to be...but as someone else said...it's rarely just this one issue and much of it is veiled...I wonder if I stayed longer if I would slowly start to see the signs of the whole men being in charge and women should be barefoot and tied on a rope between the kitchen and the bedroom attitude?

Maryz Mon 04-Feb-13 09:18:51

That is a great speech beals.

It's interesting that the audience obviously had no idea what he was getting at - either that or they agreed with the first part of the speech and were flabbergasted by his ending. There was a rather bemused silence when he finished.

mrsjay Mon 04-Feb-13 09:19:43

Im not really religious well not at all ,but yanbu how can a church preach about tolerance and loving 1 another blah blah, but deny people a marraige, I guess it is all about a man and woman procreating isn't it ? but come on churches like the rest of the world need to evolve and move on,

weblette Mon 04-Feb-13 09:19:50

I found this article both interesting and heartening.

OP YANBU

No I live in Northampton now and we don't have a proper Unitarian church here so I moved to church of England.
They are very welcoming and their views are not so old fashioned.

ReallyTired Mon 04-Feb-13 09:24:16

I am sorry that you are having problems with your church. It is hard to leave a church and it does feel like leaving your family. I think you need to pray and think what God wants you to do.

I left a church because the priest refused to baptise my daughter inspite of us having a 90% church attendence. She put all kinds of stupid obsticles to make infant baptism impossible for those who didn't meet the criteria for her middle class social club. Ie. She wanted us to attend to baptism classes, a service of thanks giving, have a visit from someone from the church. Dd missed the service of thanksgiving because of diahorrea and vomiting. She was only newly potty trained and I felt it was inappriopiate to take a two year old with diahorrea to church. We were told that we would have to wait 3 months and attend the baptism classes again.

The awful woman refused to say prayers for a 30 year old man with anorexia who have had a heart attack because she felt that anorexia was self inflicted. The man had two small children who potentially faced losing their Daddy. Having pychiartic problems did not fit in with nice nominal christianity.

We made the decision to change church and it was the best thing we did. No church is perfect and if you want a church with good youth work then you may have to roll up your sleaves and set up a youth group. It typically takes six months to settle into a church. I have to admit that leaving my old church does feel like a brevement as I miss my friends.

BalloonSlayer Mon 04-Feb-13 09:25:22

"I don't recall dh and I being referred to as heterosexuals when we married."

- no but you were referred to as "This man and this woman" which is exactly the issue the priests are talking about.

I am not sure why I seem to be arguing the point away from the OP. because I do hope gay people do become able to get married in Church. It's just that I understand that some priests can feel that marriage is between a man and a woman without being homophobes.

firesidechat Mon 04-Feb-13 09:26:57

I don't actually know the precise reasons why some people struggle with this and you've made me want to discuss it with my friends now. It could be a general feeling that society is breaking down and that there need to be strong foundations in place that don't change. Marriage in this country has always been between a man and a woman and sometimes big changes are scary. Not saying that I agree or disagree with this because I'm a bit confused myself.

This issue seems to be taking up alot of time and energy and I can't help feeling that this country has greater problems that affect a larger percentage of people than gay marriage does. I also realise that for homosexuals who want to get married this is the most important issue in their lives and really matters to them.

As to not going to church, this is a deliberate policy rather than a problem with finding somewhere. Lots and lots of my christian friends have done the same thing. Have you read "So you don't want to go to church anymore" by Jake Colsen. I would highly recommend it.

trustissues75 Mon 04-Feb-13 09:33:39

Needles

To go back to your question - as a Christian have I not read Genesis regarding man and wife becoming one flesh - I take it you're referring to Genesis 2:24?

What exactly is one flesh? What does the Bible mean by this? Could it also mean that generally when men and women have intercourse they often produce one flesh....a combination of them both? And how does this verse denounce homosexuality? I see no adjunct to say that no other union of any type is allowed...perhaps the one flesh meant that the union of sexual love is very different from parental/child love - given that it is mentioned that a separation from parent is a natural progression towards a sexual union.

What does Jesus say about homosexuality? Do you know? I'm interested in your thoughts?

JakeBullet Mon 04-Feb-13 09:38:04

There is also the issue that Genesis is largely a myth written down by the people of the Exodus time of the Bible. Or am I wrongconfused ?

I can sort of see that marriage was always about the procreation of children but I still feel that love is love and should be celebrated.

IThinkOfHappyWhenIThinkOfYou Mon 04-Feb-13 09:40:04

I can understand that some priests and laity believe that sacramental marriage should be between one man and one woman to the exclusion of all others etc. However, the bill is not about an idealised state of marriage, it is about the treatment of civil marriage in law.

I would estimate that my priest has spoken out about gay marriage around 30 times in the last two years. He has not mentioned divorce, adultery or contraception once in the same period yet these are all things that, according to Catholic doctrine, threaten the idealised state of marriage. I can only conclude that it is much easier to condemn 'them' rather than his divorced/living in sin, contraception using adulterous congregation.

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