Mass Immigration, scare mongering??

(317 Posts)
Flickstix Thu 24-Jan-13 10:09:24

Am I being unreasonable to think it is a problem or am I just falling prey to media propaganda? The whole EU debate seems to have highlighted it but I would like to understand it better.

RichManPoorManBeggarmanThief Thu 24-Jan-13 11:12:18

These days though, we are just as able to go to theirs (or any other EU country).

But do you want to? That's the question because no-one I know is harbouring any ambitions to move to Romania. Open borders only work when there are no benefits and complete fluidity of the labour market (e.g. regardless of any other consideration, everyone follows the money so the labour market balances out- if there are too many people in one location, wages fall, and people go to where there is a labour shortage and wages are higher). In reality, this will never happen for a number of "real life" factors.

jojane Thu 24-Jan-13 11:13:26

The problem is we can't go to any other country in the eu and straight away be housed, given free healthcare and money to live on without first having paid something into the system. Immigration works if there are people going in AND out of the country at similar rates.
Also hand in hand with this is that job are bein outsourced to china and India reducing the amount of low level jobs available, job that school leavers traditionally took before working their way up, call centres an production etc.

Flickstix Thu 24-Jan-13 11:13:52

The thing is if you are a working immigrant you will be paying national insurance, therefore you are fully entitled to healthcare, and rightly so, but why is there an increasing deficit in the NHS?

There is nothing wrong with wanting to make a better life for yourself and your family, I would move Heaven and Earth for my children, but perhaps the EU should be concentrating it's powers on making Romania, Bulgaria etc better places to live so people wouldn't feel the need to escape.

CaroleService Thu 24-Jan-13 11:15:29

In pure numbers terms, I don't think so - if every town in Britain acquired a percentage of the incoming workers, that is. The problems recently discussed in the media seem to arise because a significant number of immigrants are drawn to one small area, because of seasonal work associated with it (Boston = agriculture), which mean that services in that area are swamped whereas 30 miles away there is no impact at all.

Flickstix Thu 24-Jan-13 11:16:09

jojane - The problem is we can't go to any other country in the eu and straight away be housed, given free healthcare and money to live on without first having paid something into the system.

But surely you can? Why does it work that way for Britain and no other EU country, I thought the whole idea was that we are governed by the same rules?

Flickstix Thu 24-Jan-13 11:17:50

Do you think the arrival of immigrants from Romania & Bulgaria en masse will create tensions between them and the established Polish?

RichManPoorManBeggarmanThief Thu 24-Jan-13 11:18:22

The problem is that the Uk actually needs to reduce its population, not increase it because we are not suddenly going to produce a million jobs out of our backsides. The UK is a declining economy (stagnating, best case) with no global competitive advantage in anything other than financial markets, due in part to a fluke of time zones. That's the reality. There is no point hoping that suddenly we're going to become like China, because it wont happen.

Immmigration in the 90's early noughties was absorbed because we were riding the back of the Asian Tiger, but now the Asian Tiger is no longer offering freebies

elizaregina Thu 24-Jan-13 11:18:47

Not every single person that does work here though does pay NI.
One problem house we had they were working at the local car wash place cash in hand - it was all connected to the landlords where they lived.

I can see how someone who lives elesewhere in my town wouldnt see there is a problem, where I live is very dense housing, my road has a real mix on it - always has.....we walk into town etc ....I can see how someone who lives in more spacious housing on the edge, perhaps drives more, deosnt use our town which is noitourisly ugly - uses some nicer towns near by, hasnt had to use the hospital and sends children to private schools, wouldnt neccasily be aware of the problems in other parts,

however that could also mean the problems our town faces are soley on our road and maybe one or two others and therefore - a problem for us - but not neccasrily in the bigger picture.

RichManPoorManBeggarmanThief Thu 24-Jan-13 11:19:29

I thought the whole idea was that we are governed by the same rules?

Well that's the theory, but how it works is that the EU makes a ruling, the UK follows it, and everyone else does what they like

Flickstix Thu 24-Jan-13 11:20:29

I'm really surprised Cameron hasn't addressed mass immigration....

alemci Thu 24-Jan-13 11:21:13

Yes but drive around any housing estate where I live and most of the residents are not British so they are being housed. My mother met someone who worked for a local borough in housing and she told my mum that the directive was to give newcomers housing priority. An almost sticking up 2 fingers attitude to all those people languishing on the waiting list for many years who are probably paying council tax.

Where my DC went to primary school used to be mainly British. Now when I went to work on the tube the majority of mums or dads taking to children to the school were non British and they have had to extend the school. a few years ago it wasn't full.

I have no problem with individuals and I don't hate anyone but there are just too many people coming not just from Eastern Europe but going to say Holland first then rolling up here when they get kicked out for not working etc.

I do think it depends where you live. In say Devon or Cornwall or West country (DS lives there) it isn't so obvious.

MummytoKatie Thu 24-Jan-13 11:21:29

I think that "Scary immigrants come to the UK and take all our benefits and housing whilst being generally scary" is an excellent way of selling newspapers.

That doesn't mean at there are not problems but it does mean we need to be careful taking things at face value.

For example of the two people who first replied to the OP one commented on the problems of lots of young single men coming whilst the other expressed concern about the impact on labour wards. These two things can't simultaneously be true so there is some press manipulation in there.

As a country one of our biggest problems is the aging population. It really is a ticking time bomb as people are living so much longer whilst people are having less and less babies. Mass working immigration is wonderful for dealing with this problem - tax payers able to start immediately - none of the whole having to educate them to the age of 18 first lark that you would have if people just had more babies - they just turn up and start paying.

Obviously if immigrants are coming and just claiming benefits then that wouldn't happen but I'm not convinced that is true. After all we also hear a lot of stories about immigrants "stealing" our jobs so they again this is a contradiction.

Overall though I don't think that Big Dave is a person who is particularly bothered about being nice to poor Romanians - if we are staying in Europe and allowing this level of immigration and not limiting benefit access then it is because he thinks doing so will maximise his chances of re-election. His best way to do this is to do what is best for the economy.

I wouldn't trust him as far as I can throw him to do the "right thing" for anyone other than himself and his little gang of pals and for that reason strangely enough I sort of trust him!

elizaregina Thu 24-Jan-13 11:21:50

Flick

its not a level playing field - you simply get more money here.

As someone said you dont see a great flow of people going to poland or bulgaria.

This is one of the problems - everyone seems to know exaclty what you get here - and we all know we have been extremly good to our immigrants with interpreters - housing etc....however its not so clear what we could get should we go elsewhere, in terms of helping us to assimilate into another country.

I want to know - I want to move!

FlipFlopFloss Thu 24-Jan-13 11:24:48

I am totally ignorant about immigration tbh.

I wonder if its all propoganda and can people really just come to the UK and get housed and benefits?? Really?? Is it that simple??

I was out of work for a while last year and had to jump through hoops to claim job seekers allowance - which by the time I qualified for it, had found another job. But the amount of paperwork and checks they did on me (I was born in the UK to UK born parents and grandparents etc etc). I read the sensational headlines and used to think OMG thats disgusting - but since my jobseekers claim I wonder how true it can be. If me a UK born citizen who has always worked and paid tax can struggle to get a benefit then surely someone from Bulgaria/Poland (elsewhere from EU) cannot just rock up and say yeah - child benefit and a house please????

If this is the case and people can get benefits for just being here (before finding employment) can anyone tell me where else in the world or the EU me and my family can go and expect the same treatment on arrival?

If everywhere offers the same then I suppose its fair enough - but what is it about the UK that makes it so favourable??

These are genuine questions I would like helpmin understanding.

elizaregina Thu 24-Jan-13 11:26:35

"For example of the two people who first replied to the OP one commented on the problems of lots of young single men coming whilst the other expressed concern about the impact on labour wards. These two things can't simultaneously be true so there is some press manipulation in there."

I am commenting personally on where I live and the problems we have had to encounter on our street - the anti social problems have been mainly coming from young men with a few girls there but mostly men.

That is the housing on offer where I live, ie lodgers in rooms,

elsewhere in the town - more families live - the women in the families are having babies.

Not everyone is reading the papers to get an idea of whats happening,

Some people are living and breathing the negative aspects of this every single day.

MrsDeVere Thu 24-Jan-13 11:27:15

People have been terrified of 'mass immigration' for decades.

Why do we think that this time it we really will sink into the sea?

I live in an inner city with high rates of immigration. My borough tends to attract those from the working classes and first generation immigrants.

I am white working class on a low income. I also work in the public sector. So according to Griffin et al I am the very person who should be angry/worried/pissed off/marginalised etc.

Well I am not. My life is not made worse by the fact I live among poor immigrants anymore than it is made better by my proximity to the pretty, villagey, middle class enclave up the road.

They both bring their advantages and disadvantages. Both groups can suck the life out of any resource going or they can lend new skills and experiences.

The things that worry me about new immigrants are the same things that worry me about people in general:

Homophobia
Sexism and sexual harassment
Child abuse and neglect.

There is no doubt that some people take a while to assimilate to a new culture and want to hide behind what they say are cultural practices.

FGM
Physical punishment
Domestic Violence
Stigma attached to disability

for example.

But we have laws and education and immigrants are subject to the same criminal laws as natives.

There will be no mass immigration. No more than when the BNP sent round leaflets stating as FACT that 80,000 turkish muslims of working age were about to descend on us.

The government are trying to get people back on side. They are using this to scare people into voting for them.

I am aware that my views are unlikely to be popular. But then I am sick of wankers like Griffin claiming he represents me.

Portofino Thu 24-Jan-13 11:31:15

You cannot just turn up and be given benefits/free housing even as an EU citizen. There are restrictions in place here Also, If you move country as an existing benefit claimant, it is your country of origin that pays the benefits. You can normally do so for up to 3 months.

manicbmc Thu 24-Jan-13 11:31:22

What MrsDeVere said pretty much word for word.

mrsjay Thu 24-Jan-13 11:32:27

The government are trying to get people back on side. They are using this to scare people into voting for them.

I am aware that my views are unlikely to be popular. But then I am sick of wankers like Griffin claiming he represents me.

I am with you all the way Mrs DV before griffin it was the national front spouting the same shite to the same scared people,

manicbmc Thu 24-Jan-13 11:34:26

Some of the comments on this thread could have come straight out of the 50s hmm

photographerlady Thu 24-Jan-13 11:37:31

In being an immigrant to the UK I can say in my eyes its not a one size immigration issue. I have lived here 12 years, with 3 different visas. Each of these cost me over 1K each and I have no access to benefits or public funds. I went to school here and paid a pretty penny for it, I worked here as a highly skilled worker and married here after a 6 year relationship with am adorable little stocky English chap. The immigration system here has treated me fairly, I've worked and paid taxes every month I have been here and passed my Life in Britain test and other visa requirements as an Non EU immigrant. I wish it was easier in some aspects but rules are rules.

elizaregina Thu 24-Jan-13 11:39:24

our government is NOT chasing other countries for money spent by thier nationals in our NHS. FACT.

what makes you think its any better at chasing them for benefits.

Other countries however are very good at chasing us.

Our country is drowing in an in effcient bearucratic nightmare.

We are not good at record keeping.

On radio four this morning there was talk of a box of about 20 thousand I think they said - details of visa applications!

This box has been moved from Croyden to Sheffield, and someone happened to come across it.

One Man has been waiting for 10 years to have his wife with him!

dreamingofsun Thu 24-Jan-13 11:44:30

onemorechap - i don't understand how you think housing is a 'preceived' problem. 2 bed flats start at 150k where we live. How on earth can someone on an average salary afford to buy that?

Bakingnovice Thu 24-Jan-13 11:49:11

It's the children and the exploited I worry about. My town attracts many many immigrants and many houses have been bought by big landlords and house multiple European families. When taking my dd to preschool I see many school age children stood outside shops or playing outside. Not all of them are allocated a school place. One lady I spoke to said her son wasn't attending school as it was too far and she wanted to wait for the oversubscribed school which was closer, or would like a council taxi for her dc. The children don't look well fed, or cared for. My dc school has many new children and there is a violence issue but mainly because these children are displaced, unable to communicate, make friends, discuss their fears. Also, landlords are housing multiple families and lets not even start on the exploitation of young women. I am all for immigration, but we need to limit this so that we can properly provide for and care for those that do come. The anti social behaviour is also an issue.

The young people tend to skip school and stay out on the street late. Having worked with Europeans in my voluntary role I personally feel that those who come here for work and education tend to settle better. It's the poor lower class groups who seem to wander from city to city looking for seasonal cash in hand jobs who settle badly. Also in my area there is a huge problem with racism as many of the new Europeans, especially those from Lithuania/Romania/Poland tend to view the generations old Asians who have been here for years and years as racially inferior. I have personally witnessed a polish man push an elderly Asian guy out of the way in a the queue and racially abused him. Sadly many of the European and former soviet nations are not as tolerant as we are.

I wish there was more we could do but we can't.

alemci Thu 24-Jan-13 11:52:09

About 15 years' ago my mother worked as a teacher in the local borough I mentioned earlier. She worked as a teacher supporting primary school children who needed help in English who were immigrants. She did some home visits. Most of them lived in social housing and she commented on how nice the houses were with brand new carpets etc. These parents were not working.

Meanwhile my DH and I were struggling with 2 young children with one on the way and he earned slightly too much to receive any benefits, our mortgage was going up and we were really struggling. Our house was not very nice and we couldn't afford to do anything to it.

Before letting anyone else in, I would love the government to see who is here. Who was living in the allocated housing and if it is being sublet which I believe it often is. Who is working and paying taxes rather than cash in hand etc. Who is on benefits and not tried to get a job.

Can't see it happening but I wish we could learn the truth. I know it is not all bad but I think the indigenous working population have been treated badly by successive governments.

Also often immigrants bring their own families and elderly in so they still need to be cared for and then the immigrants will become old and need care so I am not convinced about this ageing population argument.

Also if the indigenous working population cannot get affordable housing then they will not have big families as they don't get any help.

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