AIBU to wonder how she is even pregnant???

(58 Posts)
TheSecondComing Thu 10-Jan-13 17:00:52

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

I won't clink because it's the Daily Fail but a decision would have to be made about her capacity to consent. Lots of people with LD have sexual relationships and certainly have capacity to consent.

Theicingontop Thu 10-Jan-13 17:05:13

She has a significant learning disability, she's not incapable of sexual thoughts and feelings. Jesus.

ouryve Thu 10-Jan-13 17:06:20

I'm sure she got pregnant the same as anyone else.

TheSecondComing Thu 10-Jan-13 17:07:38

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

She is pregant. The pregnancy is high risk for her because of her sickle cell. The issue is does she have the mental capacity to understand the risk to herself and make a decision whether or not to continue her pregnancy. A psychiatrist gave evidence that she does have that capacity.

If she is competant to make a decision about accepting the risk of continuing with the pregnancy then, in my view, the court was right to respect her autonomy and not to order an abortion.

What anyone should do is put the title in Google and click on other links, probably from the Telegraph or Guardian, to get a better explanantion of what is happening.

You have assumed that the woman didn't understand the implications of a sexualrelationship.

It is stated in other reports that the woman doesn't want a termination, but the doctors wanted to force one.

"Severe LD's" can mean different things, so it is right that the court decides this and not a medical team.

What do you want? The institutions opening again, so "they" are away, behind walls?

TheSecondComing Thu 10-Jan-13 17:12:18

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HyvaPaiva Thu 10-Jan-13 17:12:20

Now you're asking 'how is this woman's pregnancy anyone's business?' You didn't ask that in the OP. You said 'how is she even pregnant'. Maybe responses would have been different if you'd asked your new question.

If she has a severe enough learning disability to not be able to consent for herself whether she can have an abortion how can she be deemed able to consent to sex

Two very different issues, from an ethical POV.

She has been found to not lack "Capacity".

mrsmalcolmreynolds Thu 10-Jan-13 17:13:48

Not sure where the OP got the idea that she doesn't necessarily understand conception (couldn't spot this in the article which I forced myself to read) and there appears to be absolutely no suggestion of rape.

Wholeheartedly echo what MrsTerryPratchett and theicingontop said. People with learning disabilities of any level do not need to be infantilised on top of everything else.

CheCazzo Thu 10-Jan-13 17:14:03

What do you want? The institutions opening again, so "they" are away, behind walls?

Where does the OP say or imply any such thing? Jesus - is this another subject that cannot even be raised on MN without incurring the wrath of a certain section of the membership?

www.telegraph.co.uk › News › UK News › Law and Order

www.independent.co.uk › News › UK › Home News

It is in the news as it is of interest, how "Capacity" is judged and the judgements from the High Court on ethical issues.

TheSecondComing Thu 10-Jan-13 17:17:29

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Theicingontop Thu 10-Jan-13 17:17:35

There would presumably be no court case if she wasn't sickle cell. I don't know why you're questioning how she got pregnant in the first place. There's absolutely no mention of her not being able to engage in, or understand the implications of sex.

Where does the OP say or imply any such thing

The OP asked "how she was even pregnant", or "who impregnated someone who doesn't understand conception".

Having a "learning imparement" doesn'tmean that you cannot live a full life.

I wonder how some of the JK guests could ever be pregnant, but not women who have LD's, tbh.

I am of the "certain section" who has two DD's with LD's (one who has a good career), so the opening tone, was offensive, like it or not.

Capacity is 'task specific' - it is entirely possible for a person to have consensual sex, but lack the capacity to understand the risks to their health wrt to a pregnancy continuing. Or what caring for a baby/child involves.

Phew, difficult. Just because she has the capacity to consent to sex doesn't mean that she understands what the implications of having a very sick baby are though.

Surely it's a scale?

mrsmalcolmreynolds Thu 10-Jan-13 17:22:03

Isn't the point though that she does (in the Court's view) have the necessary capacity to consent (or not) to an abortion, and therefore cannot be forced to have one without her consent? She is mentioned as not having the capacity to represent herself in the legal proceedings, but that is a very different thing.

TheSecondComing Thu 10-Jan-13 17:23:34

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

The Court has held that she has the Capacity to consent to or refuse an abortion. The Doctors are concerned about the risk to her of continuing the pregnancy and want her to have an abortion but the Court has refused to order one saying she has the right to choose.

I am trying to work out why a sexual relationship is the business of the courts

It isn't,the medical team treating her want her to have a termination, looking at this from a "Medical" POV, as opposed to "Social".

They have their job to do, their ethical committee, may have wanted this passed to the High Court, which takes these decisions weekly, you just don't hear about it.

When people are deemed as "Vulnerable" then decisions around sex, contraception and termination has to be handled by those looking after them.

To b eon the safe side, when there is not cleat policy, it goes to committes, which can then pass it higher.

Unless you work in Social Care you probably are less aware of this.

There are cases where the court rules that contraception can be forced, this has just not been looked at sooner.

Contraception has a faliure rate though, so then it moves on to the next stage, termination.

Then if all continues, Child Protection decides who will care for the Baby.

TheSecondComing Thu 10-Jan-13 17:29:22

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

hackmum Thu 10-Jan-13 17:38:14

Laurie: "Just because she has the capacity to consent to sex doesn't mean that she understands what the implications of having a very sick baby are though."

It's not about having a very sick baby. The doctors are concerned that her own life is at risk if she carries the pregnancy to term. The question therefore is whether she can fully understand this or whether they have to make a decision to abort on her behalf. Obviously none of us have ever met this woman so have no idea what her mental capacity is and whether or not she is capable of understanding the risk to her own life.

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