To think DD aged 16 isn't going to have any income when she leaves school because she doesn't fit neatly into one of the boxes?

(97 Posts)
MarthaEntwhistle Wed 09-Jan-13 00:13:29

DD will leave school in the summer. She doesn't want to do 6th form/college. She's clever but not academic. Instead she wants to work in an outdoor adventure centre - she sees this as a future career, not just a bit of fun -and has some voluntary work lined up at a local centre, but it seems they can't offer her a job until she's 18 as she'll be supervising chilldren so needs to be 18 for that. They don't do appenticeships.

So it looks like DD will be doing outdoorsy voluntary work until she's 18. There's no colleges near us that do any outdoor adventure BTECs or anything else remotely interesting to her.

A friend told me that my DD won't be allowed to "just do voluntary" as she has to be in some sort of education. Not sure how she'll be found out, perhaps the undercover zipwire police will spot her

I am concerned about her having no income as she's not conforming by staying on in education and I'm finding it hard to get any information about what entitlements she'll have, to benefits, if any. Bit of a worry really and school/careers haven't been that helpful - just wanting to pigeon hole her into 6th form or college which she has no interest in.

AIBU to hope there's someone around who knows about this stuff?

Montybojangles Sat 23-Feb-13 11:13:42

reviewing.co.uk/careers.htm

Might be something useful here.

outdooradventurer Sat 23-Feb-13 11:05:06

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Yfronts Thu 10-Jan-13 21:06:16

Most of the out door ed people I know are from teaching backgrounds.

Yfronts Thu 10-Jan-13 21:04:53

I think she needs to get a qualification under her belt - BTEC in tourism or sport. She can volunteer during her hols.

quoteunquote Thu 10-Jan-13 19:52:20

Has she done her NICAS qualifications yet?

If not get started, you can work your way through the books quite fast, depending how much time you put in, she will need them.

flow4 Thu 10-Jan-13 19:47:52

Thanks Erik smile It sounds like it's going to be unenforceable because no-one actually knows what the rules are...

ErikNorseman Thu 10-Jan-13 19:39:49

Me. I heard it from a post 16 intensive education support worker.

flow4 Thu 10-Jan-13 19:33:55

Who was it who said (upstream) that they'd heard these new regulations weren't going to be enforced? I'm not surprised!

juule Thu 10-Jan-13 18:02:10

flow4 it's not a HE license, it's the work permit that the LA issues if a school-aged child wants to work. Looking at it the wording is ambiguous. I took it that only being allowed to work 2 hours on a school day was a restriction for all children and took it to apply to my HE children during term-time. Perhaps I was wrong. I never had cause to query/challenge it as they were employed outside school hours.

mrsjay Thu 10-Jan-13 17:14:38

im in scotland though so maybe it has come in here before the rest of the country my dd left school 2 years ago

mrsjay Thu 10-Jan-13 17:13:53

"From the summer of 2013, a young person must do some part-time education or training until they’re 17."

our school area has had this for 2 years a friend of dd went back to school as he had left to get a job then was fired so went back to school until he was 17

flow4 Thu 10-Jan-13 17:12:01

I think it's a question of terminology, Holly. The fact is, a young person in y11 now cannot (legally) leave school this year and just volunteer - they must participate in some learning/training.

"Raising the participation age (RPA) does not mean young people must stay in school; they will able to choose one of the following options post-16:

- full-time education, such as school, college or home education
- an apprenticeship
- part-time education or training if they are employed, self-employed or volunteering full-time (which is defined as 20 hours or more a week)".

So if the OP's DD was working or volunteering for 20+ hours/week, she could just do a part-time course - she wouldn't have to study full-time.

But it's clear as mud hmm - the DfE guidance for participation seems to directly contradict the DfE guidance for employment!

The full DfE guidance about participation in education is here.

HollyBerryBush Thu 10-Jan-13 16:56:14

A person begins to be of compulsory school age on the prescribed day which either falls on or follows a person's fifth birthday. The prescribed days are currently 31st August, 31st December and 31st March, ie the term following the person's fifth birthday. A person ceases to be of compulsory school age on the school leaving date in the academic year in which they turns 16. The school leaving date is currently set as the last Friday in June. Raising the participation age (RPA, as set out in Chapter 1 of the Education and Skills Act 2008) does not affect the compulsory school age. However, its effect is that a person who ceased to be of compulsory school age but has not yet reached the age of 18 (or attained a level 3 qualification), is under a duty to participate in education or training. Source: DfE lawyers 2011-10-17

from the DofEducation site

[[www.education.gov.uk/vocabularies/educationtermsandtags/1840 ]]

I don't know how many limes I've linked to the DofE. The school leaving age has NOT been raised.

flow4 Thu 10-Jan-13 16:46:05

juule, the bit I'm looking at is on page 6 of this DfE guidance

"In the restrictions outlined above there are
references to the school day and any day on
which the child has to go to school. In the case
of a restriction which relates to the school day
or a day on which the child has to go to school
the Act does not deal with the position of home
educated children..."

I don't know about HE licences, but your suggestion sounds plausible... I think they're making it up as they go along! hmm

Socy Thu 10-Jan-13 13:35:42

Your daughter can do an Adventure Sports BTEC. Even if your local college doesn't offer one other colleges offer accommodation from 16 for those living too far away to travel - Reaseheath in Cheshire is one but there will be others. The BTEC includes work experience as part of the course and this can lead to permanent work in the future, or there is still the option of university either straight from college or at a future date.

Whether or not your daughter is allowed to work/volunteer if she can be persuaded to take further qualifications to enable her to go to uni at some point if she chooses to this would give her the widest choice of career options. And doing a BTEC in Adventure Sports doesn't restrict you to studying Adventure Sports at uni, provided you get good enough grades you can do a more academic degree too.

juule Thu 10-Jan-13 13:24:31

Really Flow? I'll have another look.
Maybe it's something to do with local authority licensing. My HE children's licenses only authorise the same hours for term time as school ed children. I'll be checking over them again too smile

exbrummie Thu 10-Jan-13 13:22:18

This is all so confusing.DS leaves school this summer and even the school don't seem to know what the new rules are.
When I asked at his last parents evening I got a vague"oh I'm not sure"
If the teachers don't know what hope is there!

flow4 Thu 10-Jan-13 13:10:28

Actually juule, the DfE guidance seems to say the rules do NOT apply to home ed kids. I agree it's confusing!

juule Thu 10-Jan-13 08:02:35

Rubygates the "school day" employment rules apply to home-ed children the same as school ed children.

Child performers need performance licenses. Info here

juule Thu 10-Jan-13 07:55:18

According to this

Op's dd could do volunteering as being her staying in education if she did more than 20 hours a week.

"part-time education or training or volunteering more than 20 hours a week"

RubyGates Thu 10-Jan-13 07:48:19

That's interesting flow4, how would that work for home-ed teenagers who don't have "normal school hours" or stage-school children who are contracted for matinee performances I wonder?

juule Thu 10-Jan-13 07:47:35

This is a bit confusing.

The school leaving age hasn't been amended but the following has been added:

"From the summer of 2013, a young person must do some part-time education or training until they’re 17."

Does that mean that from the old school leaving age a person can still work up to 40 hours as long as they are they are doing some part-time ed or training?

flow4 Wed 09-Jan-13 23:38:49

Also just to say that the laws relating to employing school-age children are tight (i.e. including your DD, since the school leaving age is rising). Sch-age children can't be employed for more than 2 hours on a school day, and work can't be during school hours. This includes unpaid/voluntary work for any profit-making business or trade, and even (say) in a charity shop. So although your DD has sorted out some voluntary work, this can't be within normal school hours, because any company breaking the rules risks court and a fine of £1000 (or up to £20,000 if they breach H&S requirements for young people).

Full DfE info here.

RubyGates Wed 09-Jan-13 11:52:38

I don't think the learning has to be in an institution as such,
would something like this be suitable?
adlhomestudy.co.uk/

whiteflame Wed 09-Jan-13 11:21:13

Besides reading on here, I'm not overly informed on the school leaver changes. So ignore me if I'm wrong, but isn't 16-18 year olds "just doing voluntary work" exactly one of the scenarios that the new rules are trying to avoid?

She should be in some kind of education, I would tell her to get on with some qualifications. There's plenty of time for pursuing voluntary work/outdoors career once she has her A levels or equivalent. And if (more likely when) she discovers she needs the qualifications, they will be harder to go back and get. So why not do them while she has the chance?

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