no matter what cannot believe in god

[plugplant]

Have tried reading the bible, am now reading the Quran. I dislike the part in the heifer 228 ..' wives have rights corresponding to those which the husbands have...but men have a rank above them'.

Likewise there are plenty written in the bible that get me angry, surely that bit where the daughters supposedly get their father drunk to have their way with him is false? It was written and recorded by a man and would be biased. More likely incest committed by the father that got his daughters pregnant.

The commentaries in the bible and quran talk about hell and damnation for the nonbelievers. Yet what about good people who don't share the same religion?

I do believe there is some super force (don't like the term god because it conotates some bearded man on a throne in the sky!) who created everything but that humans have been deliberately designed not to fully understand how.

A little christian boy told his mum he felt sorry for my son because he doesn't believe in Jesus! But was Jesus really an incredible faith healer who could cure at a touch? The Quran teaches Jesus as filled with the holy spirit and was another messenger and Mary was not impregnated by God!

Who is right? Surely as many wars have religious origins people have been dealt with a bad hand? Islam means peace and christianity extols forgiveness yet both are guilty of terrible atrocities.

I am so confused. How does anyone get past all this to have a strong faith?

[squeakytoy]

you are confused??? I just read your post.

You either believe, or you dont believe. You cant force yourself to believe.

[12ylnon]

humanism.org.uk/
www.secularism.org.uk/
Let me point you in the direction of these two excellent organisations.
There is nothing wrong with not having a faith. Or having a faith and not being sure how to 'label' it. Your son should certainly not feel ashamed by not believing in a god either- the BHA have a wonderful slogan- Good Without God.

[plugplant]

It is impossible for me to believe what is supposedly the word of god as it is clearly very biased against women and nothing has been written or recorded by women. May be the staunchest believers have not actually read the bible or quran but act and behave and accept their lot for cultural reasons.

[OovoofWelcome]

Would you trust medical advice from centuries ago? If not, why not? Eye of newt anyone? Or would you rather have a paracetamol?

Religion is a set of out-dated ideologies that reflects the time in which it was written. You don't have to try to believe any of it!

Goodness, kindness, morality, charity, courage, generosity.....are all available to you in abundance, right now. You don't have to have a religion to strive to be a good person.

[AMumInScotland]

I think you have to separate out the fact of believing in a God (or gods) from believing every word of what people have written about that God in times past. The Bible was written by people to describe their experience of God. Their view of the world and the ways they explained things don't match very well with things that we now know and believe, and you either have to accept that or tie yourself in knots trying to believe both what the Bible says and what real life and your own brain tell you.

If you can read it thinking "What were these people's lives like and why did they think God wanted that?" then you can take some useful messages out of it.

Or, you can decide you don't believe it, and don't let it worry you. Most sensible people understand that you can be a good person without a religious faith, or a bad person with one.

[12ylnon]

Well i think you've answered your own question there plugplant !
I too have these problems with most religions. I also, like robot need hard evidence before i believe something. I'm happy with not having a faith, i have good morals and live a good and happy life. I can honestly say that faith would add nothing to it!

[ChickensHaveNoEyebrows]

You don't have to believe anything about anything. I'm not sure why you feel that you should?

[chrismissymoomoomee]

If you don't believe then you don't believe, a strong faith not something you can talk yourself into.

[AMumInScotland]

At the time when the Bible was written (which is actually a long period of time, it's a collection of separate books), the people who were religious leaders and who wrote things down were men. So, yes they were biased, and described things from their own point of view.

The staunchest believers will have read it, and will either take the time to interpret it rather than assume it is all literally true and correct and the only things which God wanted to get across. Or, as you say, accept their place in a patriarchal system without argument.

But I'm not sure why you want to have a faith in anything like Christianity or Islam if you have read their central books and decided you seriously disagree with them? There are other faith systems if you have a belief in "something" - try searching for the Belief-O-Matic if you want to find out which ones have most in common with your own beliefs. It also brings up atheism and humanism as matches depending on what you say to various questions, treating them as equally valid choices.

[OxfordBags]

I don't understand why you seem to be searching for a faith to believe in when you can't 'make' yourself believe in any of them or agree with what they say, OP. No-one has to believe anything and, IMHO, it's odd and unnecessary in today's modern society to still believe in invisible men who live in the sky.

The things written in the Bible and Qur'an are irrevelant, pointless and even dangerous for today's world. They were written millennia ago, specifically for their geographically-specific societies, based on their fairy stories and crude, limited understandings of how the world worked, and rules that made sense for how things were, ie banning eating pork and shellfish because, due to being in hot regions, those would quickly become pretty dodgy to stomach. They were also written by ordinary men, not special people through whom a supernatural entity was speaking, and reflect their biases, prejudices, agendas, beliefs and also the agendas that the people in charge insisted they promoted.

The good stuff you could take from religious books, like 'thou shalt not kill', is all stuff that you do not need to have a shred of religious belief to work out for yourself. Religion is entirely unnecessary for developing and having morality and being good. Indeed, I personally believe that it hinders moral development, as it teaches children to learn to be good because they fear punishment and want to please, instead of working out morality for its own sake, and can also be immoral, like misogyny and homophobia being promoted in the name of religion, etc.

[PostBellumBugsy]

I'm even more confused! Surely, if you believe in a superforce that created everything, then surely you believe in a god/goddess/deity? You just don't like that term.

[plugplant]

When I have travelled I have seen how religion inspires and transforms peoples lives. If there was no such thing as god how come the majority of the world's population believes?

The richness and hope it gives people around the world is awe inspiring. The asthetic side, sense of tradition and the way the rites of passage are celebrated gives meaning to peoples lives.

I used to think all the incredible works of art that has been inspired by religion was done by artists and craftsman because of their great faith. The reality is the only organisations who could afford to commission these works of art were the wealthy churches!

[AMumInScotland]

So, you believe that there is a supernatural force which created humanity, and which prompts people to feel religious belief, but that the main religions are not accurate reflections of what that force/being/whatever is like?

Have you looked at religions like Buddhism or Hinduism if you have discounted the Abrahamic religions (ie Islam/Judaism/Christianity which are all interconnected)

[PostBellumBugsy]

Alot of the major religions start the indoctrination process from birth. You are required to go through rituals from an early age & attend religious gatherings - so many people have to opt out, rather than choose a religion to believe in.

In years gone by the major faiths did not permit dissent - you only have to look at the many holy wars to see that this is the case. Not believing was not an option.

Also, in the past, humans had a need to explain what seemed to be unexplainable, so religion or superstition were used. As science has advanced many of the "unexplainables" have been explained, so religion is gradually becoming less important for many people.

I would say humans are amazing and can have incredible power to inspire and transform lives. Humans can be full of richness and hope and are incredibly creative through many mediums including art & craft. I'm not sure any of it is due to religion - more a human interpretation of the beliefs of their time.

[ethelb]

you think it is unreasonsable so why are you posting in aibu?

[badtime]

plugplant, have you also seen how religious oppresses people, and inspires violence?

Religions have built up over time, from the original nature worship (Yhwh/Jehovah/the Judeo-Christian god was originally a storm god, Allah a rain god) to the complex ritualised ideologies we are familiar with. People believe, because they have been brought up to believe, as their ancestors have been for thousands of years.

[niminypiminy]

That's only partly true, plugplant. The church has commissioned some amazing works of art, but it would be wrong to say that they only have a religious theme because the church was paying. The paintings of Fra Angelico, or Botticelli, or the music of Bach (to give only three examples) came out of their deep faith. Plenty of writers, artists, musicians, architects and so on have made both religious and secular art. It would be wrong to assume that their religious art was all made with cynical motives.

You are right that faith is transforming and inspiring. It inspires people to do amazing things - most of which will never be known to history because they are small acts of selflessness and sacrifice and compassion which come as they live out the message of their faith. Faith can transfigure lives in extraordinary ways - by making it richer, and more meaningful, by tranforming our sense it its purpose.

Faith is not the same thing as dogma, or even doctrine. Its centre is a relationship with the living God (however you name or understand him/her), and living out that relationship through prayer, worship, your everyday life. For religions of the book, such as Christianity, Judaism and Islam, study if scripture is also important, because scriptures contain God's revelation to us through the medium of human history, culture, language and thought. They need to be understood in that way in order to be properly and prayerfully understood.

You don't have to have faith to live a satisfactory life. No question about that. But if you are feeling that the material world is not all there is, that there's a greater something that gives meaning and purpose to it all, that the wonder and mystery of the world point to a something else, that pain and suffering and cruelty are beyond our human powers to mend - then you are reaching out towards the living God, because he is reaching out to you.

[Nancy66]

any 'hope' religion gives people is a false one.

[FlaminNoraImPregnantPanda]

I am so confused. How does anyone get past all this to have a strong faith?

I can only answer this from my perspective as a Christian with a strong faith. It seems to me that you are looking into yourself to find faith/belief. You are trying to use your knowledge and understanding of the bible/koran to get you there. This will never work. If you genuinely want to find faith, you have to surrender and look to God. Put the books to one side and start praying. Talk to God, ask Him into your life and when you do, don't forget to listen too. Jesus promised that when you knock on the door, it will be opened.

If you open you heart and soul in this way and make a connection with God, the words in the books fade into insignificance. You will find you don't need to know the answers to everything, you can relax and trust that He knows and He will guide you down the right path.

[plugplant]

This might sound strange but I remember looking at the skull of a rabbit and marvelling at the intricacy of how the jaw bones interact. I am absolutely fascinated by the pictures of how a fetus develops in the womb.

The sheer awe in the workings of the human body or even in the stars at night. I do not believe science has the answers to all. Especially consciousness and the intangibles: emotion, feeling, touch etc. With science things are dissected to the component parts and analysed microscopically without needing the wider picture.

I would like to have faith that is not out of date and irrelevent to today or gender biased or homophobic or misogynistic or power hungry.

If there was to be a new Messiah today they would need to be female, use twitter, have a facebook account, be on MN, and tv/radio.

But even then I am not someone who blindly follows the latest in trends or whatever else.

I have met people who say they were spoken to by god. If you have a questioning mind does that mean you are never going to believe them?

[niminypiminy]

I would like to have faith that is not out of date and irrelevent to today or gender biased or homophobic or misogynistic or power hungry.

Me too. I say that as a Christian with a strong faith.

If there was to be a new Messiah today they would need to be female, use twitter, have a facebook account, be on MN, and tv/radio.

Who can say what a new messiah might look like? Certainly no one in Israel was expecting the messiah to be the son of a carpenter from a backwater in Galilee.

If you have a questioning mind does that mean you are never going to believe them?

Well you might try asking yourself if they are generally trustworthy people who normally speak the truth. If they are, then you have grounds for believing that they are speaking the truth about this.

[plugplant]

The thing is, I have guided myself over the years, I try to be kind (sometimes get taken advantage of), but there are certain things I would be hard pressed to do: kill, have an affair, steal etc but to me they are common sense and not driven because of my religion.

I tried to develop a connection with god through the 'miracle' of meeting my dh and having my dc. I am really grateful to what I have in life and now fearful of it being taken away by disease and damnation and punishment because I cannot believe.

Oh dear may be it is time for me to put the books away.

[PostBellumBugsy]

You can believe in the awe and amazingness of the universe without having to follow a particular faith.

I am blown away by rainbows, unusual cloud formations, the incredible detail on tiny flowers & the diversity of the world around us - but I don't feel the need to believe in a deity.

Religions can only function as long as there are people who believe in them. There are many, many religions that are no longer followed - does that mean those gods no longer exist or weren't real?

Our world and the universe around us will continue to be amazing, as will the species that inhabit the earth, including humans. There are lots of good people who do believe in the god of their religion, but that doesn't mean they are right or that their god is real.

[niminypiminy]

Plugplant, I don't know where you are, whether you are in the UK, but have you tried actually going to church? While there are a few churches who preach that unbelievers will go to hell, most churches have a much more generous view. You sound as if you have a view of what religion is like (and I can only speak for Christianity here) that is completely out of kilter with what actually goes on.

The reason you feel that killing, having affairs, stealing and so on are wrong is because we are all inheritors of the Judeo-Christian moral code. They feel like common sense because they are part of our culture. But the Ancient Greeks, for example, wouldn't have seen our ideas as 'common sense' at all -- they would have seemed quite weird.