To think that if we charged for schooling here

(146 Posts)
kim147 Wed 10-Oct-12 23:04:11

Children's attitudes towards education would be a whole lot better.
It's not going to happen but I have had a really shit day with a bunch of children who really do not behave and totally screw up the education of those children who want to learn.

The shooting of the teenage activist by the Taliban has really upset me. She values education and almost gave her life for it. I have been to countries where children walk miles to get to school. Those whose parents sacrifice loads to get their child to school because they value education.

Yet over here, we have children who quite frankly don't care. I know they have issues at home which they bring to school. But all they do is affect those children who want to learn.

I know the advantages of free education. That is so important. But at what price does free education come?

MoreBeta Thu 11-Oct-12 07:28:22

TYPO: 'the other 50% who are less academically able'

Sirzy Thu 11-Oct-12 07:28:30

I don't think it's the teachers fault, I think it's the systems fault which doesn't allow for the time and resources needed to working with and help children (and their families) who are struggling with school for whatever reason.

I don't know, my dd has been in a private school where parents payer a LOT for their education (dd was on bursary as I worked there) and the behaviour was awful to be honest. I was kicked in the face there!

I do see where your coming from though. I worked in various schools and the quiet kids do miss out. I've had children tell me what's the point of trying as x will only spoil it anyway.

AuntieStella Thu 11-Oct-12 07:29:29

Mall Yousafzai is campaigning for a free education to be available to boys and girls.

We have had this for our young people (a state school system available to all, a legal obligation for all to be educated whether is state school or not). It is curious to cite her actions in an argument to curtail free education as that is so different to everything she stands for.

Reducing access to education is a highly retrograde step.

WofflingOn Thu 11-Oct-12 07:33:07

I think education should be free right the way through to degree level.
But I also think that the sanctions for being intentionally disruptive, for being rude and aggressive to staff and peers, for refusing to engage in your own learning should be very rigorous.
That is outside of any SN remit, just the bulk of low-level cocky and PITA children.

Vagaceratops Thu 11-Oct-12 07:34:12

It's not always the teacher's fault that a student can't access the curriculum. Sometimes the child is completely out of place in mainstream and can't access any curriculum without 1-1 support - lack of this is nothing to do with teachers who have a whole class of children to teach

This is where we are with my DS. Although we are lucky enough that he has 1:1 and has a teacher who realises that although he might not be able to access the same curriculum as all the other pupils, he can access on on his own level if things are adjusted accordingly.

Not all pupils who cannot do the work that the other children can do need to be in other settings. Its called inclusion.

Vagaceratops Thu 11-Oct-12 07:35:00

But Woffling - what about all those children who have not been given a diagnosis?

WofflingOn Thu 11-Oct-12 07:38:26

That's where unpicking the root of why they are being disruptive comes in, and that takes experience. There are a lot of un-dx SN in schools, and a lot will never get a dx but have traits that can also be supported with similar methods.
But there are a huge number of over-entitled, argumentative and disruptive children that just like making their own choices and not complying because they feel they don't have to. And they piss everyone off, their peers, their teacher and the MDS.

morebeta the problem with your comment is less academically able does not mean disruptive. If anything from my experience the disruptive children I have dealt with have been very clever.

According to your statement my quiet dd who tries really hard and has no behavioural problems at all but has a processing disorder should come second in her choice of school because she struggles she should be dumped with the disruptive kids?

If anything my dds school choice is even more important. A clever child will do well at MOST places. My dd will need the right setting in order to achieve her best.

MoreBeta Thu 11-Oct-12 08:13:38

Whistling - disruptive children would be excluded from your DDs school.

She would be educated in a school/class that went at her pace and with the help she needs. Absolutely nobody gets dumped. We need to see all children getting the chance to achieve their potential.

The bottom line in my DCs school is no one has the right to disrupt anyone elses education.

Acumens100 Thu 11-Oct-12 08:16:12

The life expectancy of people in Brazil in 68. PUT THAT CHAIR DOWN. You're such a spacker don't you feel ashamed. The square of the hypotenuse is equal to the sum of the squares of the other two sides. Lezzer! Lezzer! Now, what I want...Keep going Carl... is, Facts. Teach...BE QUIET! these boys and girls... nothing but Facts. (Oh the irony)

I would rather have had the money to be honest.

domesticgodless Thu 11-Oct-12 08:20:28

kim I really sympathise with you. I do not know how teachers, particularly in deprived areas, handle their jobs. They seem to be expected to be a mixture of counsellor, child psychologist, social worker and policeman on top of their actual job which is hard enough.

I do think abuse, neglect and a culture of contempt for education (which is rife at all levels in the UK) affect children's behaviour in class directly.

How would it work though? Round here we are in catchment for three best schools in Borough. They are very over subscribed. If the top fifty percent got preference my dd would get the fourth school which has really poor teaching and facilities.

Dd is intellectually very clever but has a block between head and paper. Dd needs to go to either one of the schools as their s e n facilities are the best.

ghoulelocks Thu 11-Oct-12 08:40:00

I think some people here have a rose-tinted few of why children act up. From experience I'd say that the majority of children acting up do not have issues accessing the curriculum (though they probably will by high school). Those acting up because they can't access the curriculum are normally the easy quick-fix solution, get them the work/ support they need and the problem is at least greatly reduced.I don't think people often imagine how far some children go, there's this view that a 7/8 year can never be too hard to handle. If they've brought matches/ small weapons in from home they are. If they smash up offices deliberately they are. Even restraining a large 8 year old from hurting others whilst they do everything they can to attack you isn't easy at all. This is often the bit other children don't witness as they've been removed from the room or the rest of the class has been removed. I've even seen police (struggle) to restrain a 9 yr old throwing chairs at them (not called by school btw but by the social worker who had been trying to remove them for an hour). Yes this kids you see later with teacher pussy-fotting around them seem to do anything they want it class, but frankly often even the teacher is intimidated and has little back up.

In many cases the schools do everything humanly possible to deal with these children (huge resources say on creating a work-environment for them for example and providing adults). And in doing everything possible for a handful has a knock on effect for another 29, whether it's a slower pace of learning or missing out on certain activities or resources, or being hit and intimidated where they should feel safe. At my pretty average primary we, like others, try to move earth and water to meet the needs of difficult pupils with everything from buying in therapy, resources, individual planning of work, funding 1:1 adult time to altered timetables.

I don't think charging is the way forward, I'd hate to see a child loose out for want of money/ parents that didn't care to fund them BUT I would support a more zero-tolerance approach in primary with exclusion becoming acceptable again. There's a line where impacting so heavily on others that they either can't learn or have anxiety difficulties etc should result in removal, regardless of the issues. Funding (what funding...) could be diverted to pupil referral units.

Vagndidit Thu 11-Oct-12 08:44:25

Private schools have the potential of harbouring just as many hellcats as state ones, the only difference is that they can more easily exclude students and weed-out the baddies. State schools have no choice but to keep and educate them. Although there are also many private schools that will put up with anything for the benefit of a paying customer fee-paying parent.

Sadly, unless you can sort out the parents these negative attitudes toward education are unlikely to change, no matter how hard teachers try am an ex-teacher so I feel your pain

kim147 Thu 11-Oct-12 08:58:10

Of course I know I'm being unreasonable.

I just feel so sorry for those children who want to learn. I do also understand that some children have major issues which they bring to class.

ReallyTired Thu 11-Oct-12 09:00:50

In many third world countries there are huge classes of children and no behaviourial problems. This is party because

a) There is the cane
b) Children know that if they don't go to school they will be living on the streets. (Ie. no welfare)
c) Schools can exclude easily.

Sixty years ago the UK was in the same position.

A local academy has managed to dramatically improve results by keeping distruptive children down a year. At the end of year 7 and 8 children are marked on their behaviour. Children whose behavior and attitude is deemed inadequate are kept down a year. Low achieving children who behave well are allowed to progress. I don't know what the school does about the fact that these children do their GCSEs later. I imagine they end up doing BTEC or NVQ.

I don't want exclusion to be easy at any stage of education. Many children who are disruptive have unmet special needs. I would like more resources in primary to help these children. Prehaps they need some kind of councelling or time out of the classroom to address special needs. Ds primary school has employed a teacher specifically to do this.

I watched a couple of worlds strictest parents were tearaway teens go to a strict family abroad In schools in Holland/Sweden ECT.

The teens there were gobsmacked as to why these teens didn't want to try hard and get a good education.

I wonder why the difference as they are not deprived countries?

I do think that the children in those countries are better catered for in the education system imo.

Children who are not academically at the top are given vocational training and courses, I know in the school on the program the children were running a real hotel open to public with those not academic learning to be chefs, run the hotel and such.

MoreBeta Thu 11-Oct-12 09:22:52

I bet the 10% of must disruptive children were excluded and put in special schools and the 15% SEN children were given special support they need in separate classrooms, and the remaining 75% of children were streamed according to ability - the impact would be a dramatic improvement in teacher and pupil output/experience/enjoyment.

I also bet that if we did that as an experiment for 1 year no one would want to go back to the situation we have now.

MoreBeta Thu 11-Oct-12 09:23:47

In practice, what I suggest above is what my DCs school do. It works.

The thing is privates can pick and choose. I've seen three asked to leave.
My sen child doesn't need to be taught in a different classroom. I would hate for her to be, she's not disruptive, she's bright she just needs things explained in a different way sometimes. Don't all children learn differently? Visual/hands on/ verbal learners. A TA could do that while sat at a table with them.

When my dd was in a private class her learning was disrupted rather than the other way round.

AThingInYourLife Thu 11-Oct-12 09:36:28

People have a strange attitude to violence by children/teenagers.

There is a general acceptance of the idea that none of us should accept violence, or the threat if violence in our homes, on the streets, in our workplaces.

And yet it is regularly argued on here that violence by children (which seems to include everyone under the age of 18) is not their fault, and therefore must be endured by their victims.

When you have had to explain to a teenager who has been hospitalised in an attack by a classmate that she will have to face her attacker every day at school because the exclusion was overturned on appeal, you know you are failing to provide the minimum protection a child should expect from their school.

Whatever the complex reasons for one adolescent being so dangerous to her peers, failing to keep 29 other pupils safe is not justifiable.

They have a right to go to school without fear of GBH.

choccyp1g Thu 11-Oct-12 09:39:37

MoreBeta, surely your DCs school is just doing the easy bit, teaching the 75%.

Some other school has to cope with the rest, unless yours has separate provision for them.

Goldidi Thu 11-Oct-12 09:47:11

I would love to be able to remove the disruptive children from my classroom more easily so I could focus on the pupils who really do want to learn. I wouldn't want to see all children with SN put into separate classrooms though, they are generally not the pupils I have difficulties with on a day to day basis, they have specific needs which have to be addressed but that is far easier than dealing with the fights and bitchiness that come from some of the pupils without SN.

I do feel very sorry for primary children/teachers especially where they have to put up with the disruptive behaviour of a few pupils all day every day. At least in secondary I can have a nightmare class (or a class with a significant minority of disruptive pupils) for an hour but then I change classes and deal with different children (possibly with a different set of disruptions). The kids get a break too as they are in different groups for different subjects in most schools.

Goldidi Thu 11-Oct-12 09:51:45

I completely agree with you there Thing. I was assaulted by a 15yo pupil in a previous school, his exclusion was overturned on appeal dispite having a class full of witnesses to the assault, and I was expected to still teach him for 4 hours per week. Luckily my head of department was more reasonable than senior management and moved that child out of my class into his own.

Pupils in that situation are still expected to see their attacker on a daily basis, and regularly spend 3 or 4 hours a day in the same classes. It's not an acceptable situation.

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