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to not want school to teach my kids how to speak in the way the teachers wants?

(710 Posts)
bellabreeze Tue 02-Oct-12 20:41:00

Having irish accents the teacher of some of my kids has told me they would do little speech classes so they speak different.. its not the accent but its things like saying 'ting' not 'thing' and dat not that and stuff like that really.. I think.. I don't think it is important enough to waste time doing? But maybe I am wrong?

habbibu Tue 02-Oct-12 22:09:19

Frankly, the spelling argument holds very little water for English English speakers. You'd have a load of missing "r"s if that were the case...

habbibu Tue 02-Oct-12 22:09:51

I mean most English English speakers. West Country people are a notable exception.

Floggingmolly Tue 02-Oct-12 22:11:24

Why should they be supported in that, LRD? I mentioned up thread, I grew up in Dublin and elocution lessons were a fairly standard part of the literacy programme.
In Dublin, spouting ting and dat is like wearing concrete boots; you won't actually get very far. Anyone with any ambition learns to lose it fast. That's just the way it is.

ZZZenAgain Tue 02-Oct-12 22:11:24

standard English is not about pronunciation. It is the national norm in terms of grammar, vocabulary and spelling. So UK standard English is not entirely the same as American standard English and within the standard there are registers of varying degrees of formality. How someone pronounces the language is not IMO a factor in determining whether they are using standard English. You can say dink instead of think in a sentence which is constructed grammatically in a manner which reflects the norms of standard English.

Through-out the UK people use standard English and pronounce the words they use very differently to people in other parts of the country and even across classes. We all know that. I see no difficulty at all in allowing OP's dc to continue speaking as they do. If they choose to modify their language production to fit in with their local environment, that is one thing but for the teacher to take them aside in order for them to be taught to do so seems to me inappropriate.

habbibu Tue 02-Oct-12 22:11:30

"English is a quirky language and not altogether logical, so while I can see the logic in the argument that if long 'a' and short 'a' are considered correct in standard English(and just regional variation), then 'th' as 'd' ought to be, but it just isn't."

Pronunciation isn't part of standard English, just vocab, grammar and syntax.

habbibu Tue 02-Oct-12 22:12:52

ZZZen - never mind UK and US - English standard English isn't the same as Scottish Standard English!

ZZZenAgain Tue 02-Oct-12 22:13:04

whether people will be judged for saying "dink" instead of "think" and held back in their careers or life plans because of this, I couldn't say but accent generally plays a huge role in British life.

tittytittyhanghang Tue 02-Oct-12 22:14:59

There are no "proper" accents.

There are different accents.

Exactly. Im Scottish, as is ds, and have distinct Scottish accents/dialect/prounounciations. If we moved down to England and a teacher insisted that my ds prounounce words the 'english' way rather than the Scottish way (for no other reason than it was considered more 'proper') then i'd be livid.

floggin - because it is fairly old-fashioned, and a bit, well, absurd, to object to regional accents. I thought it had gone out in the 1970s, TBH.

I've really noticed how saying 'ting' harmed Dara O'Brien's career, too.

I lost my accent (not Irish) and I do feel strongly about it. There's no need. It's counter-productive in terms of actual learning.

ZZZenAgain Tue 02-Oct-12 22:15:23

you are probably right habbibu, I don't know much about that.

Floggingmolly Tue 02-Oct-12 22:18:26

Dara O'Brian has a classic Dublin 4 (posh) accent, known as the Southside whistle smile. Inner city Dublin it's not.

So what?

habbibu Tue 02-Oct-12 22:19:35

Not huge differences, ZZZen, but some grammatical differences, e.g., My hair needs cut, my car needs washed, plus some vocabulary differences, such as uplift, outwith, furth. Used to have some good discussions with first year undergrads about this, as it's a good introduction to varying standards.

Given Scotland and England weren't even the same country until 1603, it's not too surprising!

habbibu Tue 02-Oct-12 22:20:47

He still says dat and ting, Flogging, which is what the OP was complaining about...

habbibu Tue 02-Oct-12 22:21:48

YY, LRD, but it's quite an eye opener to first year students...

I would be so sad to see those aspects of a Irish accent (try saying that ten times fast) disappear.

People work hard to keep languages like Welsh and Scots Gaelic alive - why not accents?

habbibu - oh, sorry, I didn't intend that as information to you (!). I know you know, I was just emphasizing.

I'm still fascinated by it all.

Floggingmolly Tue 02-Oct-12 22:25:38

So what?
Well, nothing really, I suppose. But, have you ever heard an Irish traveller accent? It's... different.

Yes, I've heard it. My dad's family speak it. smile

Wolfiefan Tue 02-Oct-12 22:26:23

I love accents and dialects. They make language more interesting. We need older students to be aware of non standard forms though. I taught in an area where to call someone tight meant unfair. Where I grew up it was vvvvvvv rude and would probably result in you being punched! Other places use the word to describe being drunk.
We need to be able to be understood (when necessary) by people outside our own peer/regional group.

Floggingmolly Tue 02-Oct-12 22:26:36

Oh, sorry blush

If they can spell all these words correctly, I fail to see what the teacher's issue is. Why don't you ask her?

floggin - no worries! grin There's no reason you'd know and I do see where you're coming from. It's just, I lost my own accent (not that one!) when I was 5, because my parents moved, and I do think it is probably not great. I think a good teacher should be able to explain phonics in any accent.

It is sadly, quite understandable that later on, some people will want to change their accents. I wish they didn't have to at all, but I do think it should happen later on, not when these kids are learning, because it must be so confusing.

bellabreeze Tue 02-Oct-12 22:31:22

I did speak to her, basically the way she was describing the 'issue' was as if they have a speech impediment. When I was at school I am pretty sure I had the types of classes she described because when I was very young I had a problem saying 'R', I said it as a 'W' sound but the classes helped me very quickly. It made sense to help me with that but I know this isn't them saying things wrong, it is just their dialect

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