To be infuriated with Keith Vaz on the grooming of girls by Asian men

(250 Posts)
mumzy Wed 09-May-12 09:47:19

Just heard Keith Vaz on Today discussing this and being in total denial about the reality that in northern british cities and towns the street grooming of girls is disproportionatly done by Asian men and the majority of victims are white girls. His stance is it's the BNP making it out to be Asian men abusing white girls rather than accept the figues which show this crime is disproprtinately being committed by Asian men. Until those in positions ie police, social services, child protection stop being in denial this sort of thing will continue as these men will think no one will stop them.This has being going on for decades, I went to school in a northern city 20 years ago and knew of girls from chaotic backgrounds skipping classes to meet up with there much older and often married Asian boyfriends and often they'd be asked to bring a friend along for their mates. They'd be plied with alcohol and inevitably end up having sex some got pregnant. Is this a racist problem ? I think so and I speak as some one who is British but not white. There will always be people from every race who will think people of other races are inferior to them and will not flinch from abusing those who are not the same race as them. I also don't agree with the opinion of some such as Lee Jasper who say black people can't be racist I've had racist abuse during my lifetime from people who are white, black and other ethnicities. People like Keith Vaz who automatically blame the BNP do a lot of harm as it stops people discussing this publically in case they are seen as racist. This means in reality it doesn't get discussed rationally and openly so the abuse continues and the issue goes underground fuelling the support for extremist groups such as the BNP.

lolaflores Wed 09-May-12 09:55:32

I think the research done on this is that most white on street groomers work alone and Asian groomers tend to work in groups. There in is the difference, it is a crime reflecting cultural difference if anything. Most Asian girls are in much more strictly controlled houses, though abuse happens within those homes too, perhaps we are less aware of due to under reporting.
This is a very trick area and the BNP muddy the waters with their foul attitudes.
As for Keith Vaz. Man is a colossal arsehole. For it was he that encouraged Russell "I love sex me" Brand to speak as an expert witness to the committee thingy. Keith Vaz is an appalling self promoter and deserved to be drop kicked out of politics after all his previous carry on.

lolaflores Wed 09-May-12 09:58:09

Honour killings I believe are specific to Asian families. I don;t know what the equivalant is within a non Asian situation. The result of DV or abuse? I am not sure how to measure it against anything I know about. But essentially it is asian male violence of asian females and within a family setting.

auntmargaret Wed 09-May-12 10:03:35

YANBU. DP and I were discussing this very issue last night. It's ridiculous that people are so scared of being labelled racist that they won't apply common sense. It's the same as anecdotal evidence from teachers that girls from Asian families disappear from school aged 13-17 and no one makes any enquiries due to fears of being labelled racist or not culturally sensitive. We are failing these children due to a lack of will to deal with unpleasant facts.

OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos Wed 09-May-12 10:03:40

I don't see what difference it makes if the crime is committed by Asian men. A crime is a crime and if these men seem to target a particular group of women than its no different to car theifs targeting Ford owners or burglars targeting five bedroomed houses.

Just deal with the crime in accordance with the law of the land and stop wasting time worrying about the reasons for it. If these criminals knew they had a high chance of getting caught and being severely punished, they would be less likely to do it.

lolaflores Wed 09-May-12 10:06:22

You must understand the reasons for crime, because if you don't you will never get to the root of it and eradicate it. Prison is not the only answer. Tough sentences are not effective enough tools, society should have other responses to crime to make sure there is less re offending. Also, if it highlights an at risk group, make them safe and less vulnerable is another way of preventing this happenign

TalHotBlond Wed 09-May-12 10:07:23

YANBU. Everybody can be as tactful and politically correct about it as they like but this is happening and pussy footing around it is making things easier do the perpetrators.

lolaflores Wed 09-May-12 10:07:54

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

bigjoeent Wed 09-May-12 10:12:00

It feels like cultural "sensitivities" are trumping safeguarding children in a number of instances. This seems to be a way that a minority of men from a particular background are behaving, it should be understood, stopped and people prosecuted.

I worry that what I have just written could be taken out of context, but just because I have said it doesn't mean that I consider all Asian men to be involved in this or that white men are not also predators, they just do it in a different way.

MrGin Wed 09-May-12 10:12:26

Firstly, I'd say the police failed massively here. They didn't believe the first girl who went to them and it took ( I think ) a year or so before a second victim came forward and they eventually took it forward. The police spokesman said they were ' learning '.

In a case like this I think you need to be very careful about how you frame it, especially if there are racial tensions bubbling away.

The point was made on R4 last night that the kind of places that vulnerable young women hang out in / at late at night are places run by Asian men. Late night eateries, convenience stores etc. I'm sure there are a whole host of contextualized factors ( if that makes sense )

I agree with lolaflores. There is an at risk group here, make them safe and less vulnerable. Who was supposed to be looking after these youngsters ? But then we hear of the horrific stories of how some people are treated in 'care'.

sad

lolaflores Wed 09-May-12 10:14:33

There is also alot of blame the parents going on, but to listen to one of the parents he felt totally helpless to do anything to stop his daughter wanting to be around these places and naturally wanting the money, booze food or whatever else was on offer. I don't know if he went ot police or not, but there was little if anythign he could do without kidnapping her. Then he would have been in trouble.

TroublesomeEx Wed 09-May-12 10:14:35

I suppose it depends.

Is it that these men are working in opportunistic groups and it is just a coincidence that the girls they are grooming are white - e.g. Asian girls are kept on a tighter leash so they are less likely to be out there to be groomed by strangers.

Or whether white girls are deliberately being targeted - e.g. white girls are dirty and deserve it.

Outraged they profile all crimes and criminals though. It helps to target support, education and resources effectively. Obviously, sometimes they get it wrong, or apply it too heavy handedly, but in theory, it is the way to go.

MrsHeffley Wed 09-May-12 10:14:43

YANBU dp and I said exactly the same.

OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos Wed 09-May-12 10:14:44

Of course violence is nothing like burglary, I never said it was. I was talking about targets for the crime, not the crime itself, which you would see if you read my post properly.

I don't think race has to come into it. You can look at the reasons for the crime without it being about race, because it's not about race it's about attitudes.

TroublesomeEx Wed 09-May-12 10:19:17

Race does have to come into it if it is relevant.

Sometimes those attitudes are race related.

There was a young lad who was murdered 18 years ago whose family didn't get justice because of race related attitudes.

CrunchyFrog Wed 09-May-12 10:21:00

The BNP are making it very hard to have a rational conversation about it, because everyone is so eager to distance themselves from them.

lolaflores Wed 09-May-12 10:21:01

freddos you pretty much did. No difference from targetting a certain group of women than targetting Ford owners or owners of five bedroom houses.
Please differentiate between objects and human beings please. The crime carried out on a group of women because of their vulnerability is much different from crime carried out on inanimate objects. Not the same in any way.

lolaflores Wed 09-May-12 10:22:06

Perhaps race and ethnicity are being confused?

RumbleGreen Wed 09-May-12 10:22:31

I think it is a combination of things such as those men seeing white girls as easy game deserving of even less respect than they give the average woman. And also because of those girls background they had easier access to them, they are from broken homes where they can stay out and about for however long and no one really cares.

It's easier to control someone and do what you want if there is no one is interested in their welfare.

TroublesomeEx Wed 09-May-12 10:22:58

crunchyfrog that is true.

MrGin Wed 09-May-12 10:23:12

Interesting Guardian article

"The former head of Barnardo's has said that grooming of teenage girls for sex in the north of England appears to be "overwhelmingly" carried out by men of Pakistani and Afghan origin and urged and investigation into the issue."

Sidge Wed 09-May-12 10:27:27

I think the authorities are much more aware of these race-linked gang groomers than they used to be.

I saw an excellent documentary on Ch4 some months ago, focusing on the police team around ?Bradford I think it was, who were devoted solely to investigating and monitoring these sorts of crimes.

They worked closely with the local community groups, including men's groups, teen groups and religious groups, to encourage vigilance and reporting. All those interviewed said whilst not a racist crime, it was a crime involving race as Asian men were more likely (in that area) to be committing these sorts of crimes.

It was very interesting.

KatieScarlett2833 Wed 09-May-12 10:31:30

I saw this and shuddered because something similar was happening to DD when she was 13/14. We stopped it in its tracks with a lot of police, social services, voluntary agencies and family support. It could just as easily have been my child. The men involved were white, not that it matters.

MrsMicawber Wed 09-May-12 10:31:44

There was a piece in the Metro this morning from a Muslim group calling for community leaders to address the issue.

Yes, it is a problem with men of certain ethnicities and the core underlying attitudes that allow the crimes to be rationalised is what needs to be dealt with, by people those men respect.

CrunchyFrog Wed 09-May-12 10:31:58

I'd be interested to look at the attitudes.

Our lovely porn culture teaches of us that women are permanently available for sex. The media is full of (white) women flashing their tits and bits, having themselves mutilated surgically, spending £££ on making themselves look attractive to men.

If you live in a culture that does not intrinsically value women, but expects them to maintain a level of purity and modesty - how must the culture here make women appear?

It does not excuse the actions of the rapists, but the combination of women feeling like they "need" a man to have a meaningful existence plus the sexualisation of very young teens must have contributed to the girls vulnerability. (flattered by the initial attention, getting trapped in the cycle)

These rapists must have totally dehumanised their victims. There was a representative from the community speaking on the radio who said that the "older generation" felt that the victims were "asking for it." Rape culture writ large.

I've heard similar sentiments from members of the BNP before, this is just a good opportunity to exercise their race hate. They'll get back to women hating soon enough.

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