the trouble with granny

[lidldarling]

Sorry, am reposting this from teenagers, DN is coming back tomorrow and I still feel angry.

I've posted quite a lot about our situation. 18 months ago, DP's DN came to live with us permanently. He has been brought up by his granny (DP's mum) since his parents died when he was a little baby. She is a very lax parent and he was getting quite wild, dreadful behaviour at school etc. He is 14.

In the 18 months he has been with us he has improved dramatically and is now doing well at school, very well sometimes. He is occasionally rude but it's less and less often now, I am firm in stating it's not on and he is usually sweet as anything afterwards (his version of an apology, which is fine by me).

The is one situation when it all goes terribly wrong and that's when granny visits, it seems having me, his current 'mother' and granny, who has brought him up, together in the same room makes him behave terribly. Granny came to visit yesterday and he was just jaw-droppingly rude from the moment she arrived to the moment she left. Mimicking my voice, swearing, saying I was an idiot, commenting on every single thing I said as being stupid, saying I was racist, snobbish, etc. He also told granny to shut up.

He plays us off against each other, telling granny he has an awful time with us and is never ever happy, never does anything nice. For example, granny will talk to me and say, is DN ok, he seems very unhappy and I'll really? We've just made a curry from scratch and went to the beach with DS stopping off at the shops to get ice cream for pudding and talked about stuff, did he not mention that? Maybe he feels liking me is a betrayal of granny (subconsciously) or maybe he feels the need to make it awful when she's here so as not to give the game away. I don't know.

However, it was so awful yesterday I feel I have to deal with it as it has happened every single time we are together.

I was going to tell him that due to his choices in his behaviour he must either talk about it, apologise or in some way acknowledge it, move forward and strive for it not to happen again or, if he cannot do that, I will have to ask Granny to meet him elsewhere as I will not have such behaviour in my house. This will means realistically Granny won't be able to see DS who is also her grandchild. I would of course talk to granny about it - she will understand as she wants to resolve this although utterly clueless about how to deal with him.

Or should I just tell him his behaviour was hugely out of order and move on, as granny only visits rarely anyway.

It was an awful visit and I'm seething now, which is always a bad time take action and a good time to post on here

[Elderberries]

Well it's difficult. But yes don't do anything while you are seething. Poor kid. Perhaps a councillor for him? He needs to talk some stuff out but perhaps with someone else.

[Elderberries]

Also think this might get more useful responses in 'relationships'?

[TeWihara]

I think you may have hit family therapy point OP, granny is always a big sticking point for everything in your posts about DN and it sound like he needs outside help to get past it now.

[TeWihara]

As a sidenote I am so please to hear about all the progress he has been making! It all sounds very positive.

[lidldarling]

Thanks Elder, maybe will repost in Rel.
Tihara, thanks, he is doing great. We have just moved and got him into a really great school which has a reputation for its pastoral care and who took him out of catchment because they recognised he needed help. DP also just says ignore granny, there's nothing to be done. But I just can't bear sitting through these awful visits (DP is not there, always working) when DN seems to punish me for something. Is it better to let him get on with it, or not ever tolerate such disrespect. I really don't know.

[ChitChatFlyingby]

I've read a few of your threads since before you took DN to live with you, and I must say I really, really admire you!

The problem with granny is that she has NEVER been able to deal with your DN, has she?! Given how much progress you have made with your DN, I suspect you would actually be taking a step back if you let granny see him without you present. It may feel as though no progress is made when she visits, but I'll bet he turns into the nice DN a lot faster now than he did in her earlier visits. Little by (frustratingly) little it will get better.

I do, however, think granny needs to keep her mouth shut with regard to DN's happiness when he can overhear. Let her save it for a phone call later if need be. She shouldn't be doing or saying ANYTHING to give credence to DN's playing up.

[breatheslowly]

Is there no time when your DP could be present (and perhaps you could be elsewhere)?

I would go for the first option and try to think of a way for your DS to see his granny without DN. I would be very concerned about the impact of this behaviour on your DS. I don't know how old he is, but it can't be either pleasant for him to see and he can't be given the impression that it is acceptable to treat people in this way.

[lidldarling]

Thanks chitchat and breathe

well, DP is always working upstairs, pops in and out, so he had lunch with us but avoids all the sitting around talking etc. He's so exasperated with his mother. I like my MIL, she is kind and intelligent but when it comes to DN, utterly spineless. She won't go further than the mildest rebuke, she just gets upset. As soon as granny leaves DN starts being super nice, as if to apologise.

DN knows very well I will not have DS hearing anyone speak to his mother disrespectfully and generally he doesn't. He's usually fine when granny isn't here. This incident was a conversation when he scorned everything I said, but on this occasion i don't think it would have been perceived by DS as particularly negative.

DN refuses counseling, MIL and I have had one session. DN's new school has brilliant services in place, so hopefully they will help.

He comes back today (I sent him back with granny for a few days). I think I might talk about it briefly and ask him to explain why he chooses to be so rude when granny is there, explain she won't be able to come if he can't acknowledge the problem and emphasise that it is his choice if she can come or not). He starts his new school in a couple of days, so that'll be a major hurdle to get him over.

[bejeezus]

obviously my experience is on a different level altogether, but maybe relevant;

my dd is fecking awful when she is with me AND my mum. ( ive raised my dd and she is only 7yo, but she has spent a lot of time with my parents). my mum is much laxer with her. And i think she is confused by the diffrent boundaries when we are together. she knows how she should behave with me. She knows how she should behave with granny. She doesnt know how to behave when we are all together

[FetchezLaVache]

You're doing an amazing job and FWIW I think the way you plan to handle it is perfect. That way, it gets discussed calmly but very much with the emphasis on him to acknowledge what he's doing and correct his behaviour. If he can be respectful to you when Granny's not there, he can be respectful when she is, simple as that!

I assume you've already done this, but can you take MIL to one side or talk to her over the phone and ask her to trust you that DN is happy and to back you up if he complains to her that he's not? What's he like when he gets back from a few days at her house?

[lidldarling]

Thanks bejeezus, I think confusion over boundaries is a very good way of putting it. It would be unusual if he wasn't confused I suppose, as we are the opposite to granny.

Thanks Fetchez! I do think we've come a long way. And I've got very high hopes for his new school, because previously that's always been the weakest link in our life together.

I talk to granny but she seems so overwhelmed by it all. I think also that I tend to tell her off a bit. It's just she does such stupid things that I don't want repeated, so I have to say, can you please not blah blah because etc. etc. and increasingly she avoids talking to me, or texts because she thinks I'll try and make her be a way she isn't. I tried to talk to her when she was here, and said please don't worry, he's fine, he's happy here, he just wants to make it difficult to justify him always telling you we're awful and he's miserable, but she sort of made a face because she thinks he will hear us talking about him.

[OTheHugeManatee]

It sounds like your DN is really confused about how to behave when you're all there. If he was used to having no boundaries at all with granny, but has become used to having firm boundaries with you, then with both you and granny in the same room he must be completely at sea as to which set of behaviour is relevant.

I'm not minimising the impact this has on all of you or how frustrating it must be, but just wanted to suggest you bear in mind that it could be quite overwhelming for him, particularly with an early history of attachment problems (parents dying when he was very young), and not totally a rational choice as such to behave like that.

[lidldarling]

Manatee yes, I think it must be very difficult for him but I try to hold him to the same standards of behaviour anyway, although I am understanding when he doesn't achieve them. Granny sees him as special because he lost his parents and doesn't think he should be treated as a 'normal' child. She may also feel very guilty, because of the circumstances of his mother's death. I've tried to explain to her that this will make him feel different, which is not good.

It's also true that he is a hormonal 14 year old, and would behave badly anyway .

[blondie80]

Maybe your DN would chat to a childline counsellor? He can do it by phone or through a 1-2-1 online chat?

[WilsonFrickett]

I remember you posting before, I'm so pleased that things are generally going well for your family.

The thing that jumps into my head is 'he's trying to show the Granny that he's still loyal to her, rather than to you.' That and general boundary stuff, and probably testing you to see what you'll do.

I think DH needs to get more involved when he sees Granny. I'm tempted to say let him have that time unsupervised time but actually I think that will make things worse. So I'd remove yourself from the situation. Get DH to go off on a walk or the cinema or something with them and cut yourself some slack for a wee while. See what happens.

[lidldarling]

THanks Wilson, good-thinking, yes, I think loyalty to granny is a factor. Also, he wants to prove to her how awful we are, since much of their relationship these days is based on him making her feel guilty. They have long telephone conversations, sometimes several every evening, which she would much rather not have but he won't let her hang up. I think if all was jolly here he would undermine their relationship. I've asked granny to deal with the phone calls, in a 'i love you but I don't want to spend hours on the phone' kind of way but she will not hear of it, she says she will never reject him.

DP will not do things like go out for a walk with them etc. He has to work (very unusual job, he has to be at his desk) and I'm always looking after DS so 'around'.

THis is helping though. Very positive comments. Thanks all.

[SusanneLinder]

Op-you are doing a fabby job, and although this is annoying you,look on the positives that you have done.

Granny didn't manage his behaviour, and you and your DH took over and have made a confused little (now bigger) boy make huge progress. It must feel to him that he kind of doesnt belong anywhere.His parents died,then his Granny couldnt cope and now he is with you.It may feel like he doesn't have anyone to call his "own" if you understand, even though you are all blood relatives.

Personally I would tell Granny to ask about him when he isn't there, and just try and enjoy the visit. Granny is probably on a huge guilt trip too as she was unable to manage him, and feels bad that you and your DHhad to take him in.And your DN is playing on that.

Re his behaviour-I would quietly say "I am not going to listen to you when you are speaking to me/us like that.Please leave the room until you can speak to us in an acceptable manner"

And yes-he is a hormonal teenager that probably hates the world anyway :o. But you don't need to put up with it.

I still think you are doing fabby though. :)

[lidldarling]

Thanks susanne, very kind of you to say so. It doesn't always feel like it!