They're coming into our country and they don't even have to register to claim benefits now

(455 Posts)
bupcakesandcunting Thu 24-Mar-11 09:28:01

Not the words of me but of Alf Garnett my mother.

I feel that she has reached the pinnacle of twattery. AIBU to tell her to shut the fuck up with this? Honestly, it makes me so fucking angry, especially when it is punctuated with "I read it in the newspaper", like that makes it definitely true.
angry

I have told members of my family that come out with crap like that (not that bad but along those sort of lines) that unless they want me to cut them out of mine and my DS's life, they will STFU in my presence. Seems to have worked

FabbyChic Thu 24-Mar-11 09:32:32

What if it is true, why should anybody be able to come to the UK and be able to claim benefits when they have not contributed to the system? Why should anybody get free health care when they have never lived here or tried to integrate into our society?

I'm sick of this free for all, it doesn't happen in Australia if you want to go there you need finances to be able to support yourself.

There are far too many freeloaders coming into the UK and reaping the rewards of our free for all state.

LadyThumb Thu 24-Mar-11 09:34:25

Well said, Fabbychic !!

I am going to be a freeloader (fingers crossed) in about three months fabby. Me and DD are coming back to the UK to live. We will be accessing the NHS and education.

spatchcock Thu 24-Mar-11 09:36:36

Fabby - yes, well we know about Australia's track record with refugees, don't we? I know where I'd rather live.

Seabright Thu 24-Mar-11 09:39:01

But it isn't true FC, how can it be?

How can it be true that you don't have to register anywhere in order to be given benefits? Does someone stand on the street just handing out cash to random strangers? No.

EU citizens can come and go freely in all EU countries. Which means UK residents have the same rights in EU countries as EU citizens have here.

Other nationalities need visas.

suburbophobe Thu 24-Mar-11 09:39:18

Hear, hear, spatchcock!

bupcakesandcunting Thu 24-Mar-11 09:39:20

Oh Fabby, please bugger off. Typical Fabby response, that. hmm

Hammy02 Thu 24-Mar-11 09:39:26

I agree with Fabbychic. You should be able to prove you can support yourself before you can come into this country. I never claimed benefits until the age of 35 but I'm not entitled to JSA as DP works so to me it is outrageous that anyone can claim when they haven't paid a penny into our system.

vj32 Thu 24-Mar-11 09:39:49

NHS etc is not about who has 'paid in'. It is about preventing extreme poverty and illness. Lots of people get loads of help who have never worked a day in their life. I would personally prefer to deport all the people who just live off of benefits as a lifestyle choice for no reason to make way for foreigners who want to make a life for themselves and their families in Britain and work.

bupcakesandcunting Thu 24-Mar-11 09:41:39

Oh and LOL at the Australia remark. Typical bigot doesn't know their modern history. We had a whale of a time in Australia at the expense of the aborigines.

bupcakesandcunting Thu 24-Mar-11 09:42:17

The story isn't even true so can Nick Griffin's handmaidens wind their necks in, please? Ta.

DuelingFanjo Thu 24-Mar-11 09:43:17

tell her this joke and see how it goes down:

A banker, a Daily Mail reader and a benefit claimant are sitting at a table sharing 12 biscuits. The banker takes 11 and says to the Daily Mail reader: "Watch out for the benefit claimant, he wants your biscuit"

what bupcakes said at 09.42.... never thought I'd say that one

ZillionChocolate Thu 24-Mar-11 09:44:21

Lets stop children from accessing free education and the NHS shall we? Most of them have never worked a day in their lives.

Bucharest Thu 24-Mar-11 09:44:38

Roffling at Nick Griffin's handmaidens.

Bupcakes, you're lucky. My Mum cuts the articles out and sends them to me. grin

well until just a few years ago there were more British people working illegally in Australia than any other nationality - having outstayed their visa, or working on a holiday visa.........

My children have never paid a penny into the state, but they get free health care, the get free schooling, my god what is the world coming to.

Oh - and yes - apart from EU citizens who as has been pointed out have the same rights as we do if we go ad live elsewhere in the EU many immigrants aren't allowed to claim any type of benefit, not evening tax credits if they're working. This changes once they get indefinite leave to remain............but I'm not sure how you can argue against someone having leave to remain being allowed to claim benefits if needs be given they are legally permanent residents of the UK by that stage.

Annpan88 Thu 24-Mar-11 09:46:08

I think its sad when people don't want to help people Who weren't lucky enough (and really it is just about luck) to be born in a country with health and education benefits. And there are plenty of people from this country who take the piss.

ROFL at not being entitled to JSA when you have a working partner. How dreadful that you are expected to support your own family when you're earning enough to do so hmm

bupcakesandcunting Thu 24-Mar-11 09:48:58

I have tried, and failed, to explain the workings of inter-EU immigration to my mother a million and one times and about how it is NOT responsible for the breakdown of society. She glazes over, mostly.

I think she just wants it to be like Midsomer Murders with no brown people or Poles hmm

E320 Thu 24-Mar-11 09:51:43

Er, I don't think you could come to Germany, even if an EU citizen, and expect to collect benefits automatically. If you have paid into the system, what you get is at subsistance level, nothing more.

The only exception to the benefits rule really comes with aslyum seekers who are told where they have to live (or locked up in detention centres), if they know anyone in the UK already at all they wont be given housing - they'll be expecte to stay with that person they know, and are given money that equates to an amount 25% lower than IS/JSA and are not ALLOWED to work while they are waiting for a decision on whether they are to be granted refugee status. Regardless of how many years that decision takes, Quite often these are skilled, hard working people, who after months, or even years of not working then find it even harder to find a job because of a lack of work history/experience.

happystory Thu 24-Mar-11 09:53:16

Got to be time for this again

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ue8GOry52xo

ObscureReference Thu 24-Mar-11 09:53:21

Thank you Baroque for giving a more measured response than I have managed to write in my head a million times since I read what Fabby wrote.

For perspective, An Aussie who comes here (a friend of mine) is not allowed to claim ANYTHING. Despite the fact that all three of her children are British citizens, one having been born here. In fact, she is not even allowed the child benefit. She is allowed NOTHING from the government. Yet she is 'allowed' to pay taxes from working.

I really hate the ignorant assumptions that these people are coming from overseas and claiming benefits. YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO! It is quite hard to get into the country, despite what people think. And there are people who come from the EU that can do as a British person could, and yet, a person country that has the same QUEEN has to jump through hoops. Ha!

wonkeydonkies Thu 24-Mar-11 09:53:33

everyone is entitled to an opinion, even if they are over the age of 55!

wind your neck in OP, not everyone wants everything handed out for free to all and sundry

that's the point wonkey it's NOT handed out for free to all and sundry hmm

Saltatrix Thu 24-Mar-11 09:55:23

They say that like British-born people don't also take full advantage (and obviously the group that take advantage of benefits the most would be British simple numbers) of the system without contributing as well. Just your standard ignorance and selective blindness when 'their own' do it but come down like a hammer when someone 'different' benefits.

NHS is there to save and better lives not to provide services only to people who pay, unless you would like to try the American health system I am pretty sure most people would not like that.

spatchcock Thu 24-Mar-11 09:55:58

wonkey - so who are these 'all and sundry' people who are given benefits? That sounds a bit DM to be honest. Did you read what Baroque wrote?

DuelingFanjo Thu 24-Mar-11 09:56:16
pookamoo Thu 24-Mar-11 09:56:19

Show her this grin

RunsWithScissors Thu 24-Mar-11 09:56:55

Um, unless you are an asylum seeker or have an EU passport you DO need to prove you can support yourself. The number of hoops you need to jump through to become resident in the uk, and the amount if money you have to pay (eg. Spouse visa is £700, only lasts two years and you cannot receive benefits while in this visa. After that a settlement visa is £900. then another £750 a year later if you want citizenship). You must provide bank statements, pay slips and evidence of payment of taxes if you are in employment. You are subjected to a criminal background check and have to be issued and ID card (the ones that regular uk residents said no way to), so your photo and fingerprints are on file.

Winds me up when people go on about "they come over here..." When I mention the process i had to go through, I've had people people (ahem, yes you FIL) say"oh, but it shouldn't apply to YOU!"
You see, I'm a from one of the commonwealth countries, speak English as my first language etc. So I must be acceptable.

I agree no one should be able to show up and immediately get benefits etc (asylum seekers aside). But this doesn't happen! I think for a lot of people it's thinly veiled racism.

MsFaithless Thu 24-Mar-11 09:57:00

Given that benefits are much more generous in some other EU countries why are all the 'freeloaders' coming here then? hmm

Fabby - I'm very interested in your point could you please link to some evidence/protocols (not the DM) of how to claim copious benefits in this country when you're not a UK national? Failing that some verified figures of how much per year is spent by the NHS treating foreign nationals after the cost of recharge to their country of origin has been taken in to account. Genuine question. Suspect I won't get an answer.

Bupcakes - are you my sister? My mum Alf Garnett insists they get grants to buy themselves cars along with all the free cash too, oh how I laugh grin

RunsWithScissors Thu 24-Mar-11 09:58:22

Oh I forgot... YANBU!
wish I had the guts to say the same ;-)

ObscureReference Thu 24-Mar-11 09:59:39

runwithscissors EXACTLY! That is the situation my friend is in!

bupcakesandcunting Thu 24-Mar-11 09:59:40

"wind your neck in OP, not everyone wants everything handed out for free to all and sundry"

Shut. Up.

Read a bit. And I don't mean the Daily Mail. HTH.

MsFaithless our mothers must be one and the same! She said last week she saw some "illegal asylum seekers" (she hasn't grasped the difference between asylum seekers/illegal immigrants/EU Nationals who are entitled to be here) in B&Q, paying for wallpaper paste with council vouchers.

What the actual fuck?

Yes EU citizens can travel to find employment and claim any benefits that they are entitled to whilst there. But the problem is that alot of the countries that were allowed to join the EU do not have the same system in place as the UK or the employment. So the movement of people that in theory should have taken place, did not.

Many posters on MN do not want to acknowledge the real unemployment that exsists around the country and immigration impacts on this further. The immigrants do not work any harder or for less by the way, that has been fabricated. I live amongst people who have never worked but are actively seeking work, the work is not there. The amount of people living off benefits as a lifestyle choice is small.

There are immigrants who know that they only have to work here for a year and then can have a better standard of living, living off benefits than they can in their own country. There have been people from other countries saying that they are happy to even be in our prison system than live where they are. Debate is needed not just calling people bigots. I have been shocked by the call from some on here for those on low wages not to reproduce and claim any benefits because afterall we can solve a population problem with immigration.

TattyDevine Thu 24-Mar-11 10:00:55

Hopefully also everyone is aware that assylum seekers are not allowed legally to work therefore the benefits they receive pending their application is to keep them alive and not a lot more.

Immigrants cannot get benefits straightaway. When I first migrated here and got my further leave to remain and then indefinite leave to remain, I had no recourse to public funds emblazoned all over it.

bupcakesandcunting Thu 24-Mar-11 10:01:04

" I think for a lot of people it's thinly veiled racism."

<nods until neck aches>

bibbitybobbityhat Thu 24-Mar-11 10:02:12

Oh don't you just love it when you start to notice that you disagree with almost everything a particular poster says on here, and you think to yourself "cor that person seems a bit of an arse but I wonder if I am being uncharitable thinking that?" - and then they go and post something which definitively proves them to be a complete and utter arse and you thus have the green light to blithely ignore every last word they post from now on.

Very satisfying. Nice and tidy.

cushionyet Thu 24-Mar-11 10:02:22

I've long since given up trying to argue against and reason with people who've been utterly convinced that:

1) Immigrants are 'swarming' into the country literally by their thousands, like a frightening and unstoppable immigranty flood.

and

2) That said swarmy immigrants are taking advantage of the UK by any/ all of the following- claiming benefits without contributing anything first/ refusing to get paid employment/ refusing to integrate with native British people/ slowly and sneakily trying to enofrce their dirty foreign 'values' upon us... ad infinitum.

May I recommend this book in relation to this subject matter:

The End of Tolerance: Racism in 21st Century Britain by Arun Kundnani.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/End-Tolerance-Racism-Century-Britain/dp/0745326455/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300960321&sr=8-1

It was honestly a life-changing read. It's the most balanced, well-researched and (most importantly) accessible piece of research I've ever come across. It's so good in fact, that it changed some of my partner's more... 'sensationalism proclaiming' friends, which I NEVER thought possible.

OP, it may not change your mother's mind, but I've found it particularly useful to arm myself with lots arguments to launch against the tirade of ignorance spouted by people who are simply unable to research this matter properly for themselves.

MsFaithless Thu 24-Mar-11 10:04:01

RunsWithScissors so true. My friend is in your situation and hears the 'it doesn't apply to you' thing all the time. Figures because she's white and english is her first language people just don't see it as the same thing. Thinly veiled racism indeed.

Spent thousands on visas and interviews with the home office over the years too.

Oh and her passport was stamped with ' No recourse to public funds'. Perhaps that's code for please come collect your free cash? hmm

ShirleyKnot Thu 24-Mar-11 10:04:03

I heard that all them immigrants actually get given money (from my tax what I pay) when they arrive at Gatwick. There's a man there who gives them all £5,000.00 just for coming here and then they get a book on how to steal all the jobs from the indiginous population and also how to get a council mansion for them and their children.

It makes me sick.

Gottakeepchanging Thu 24-Mar-11 10:04:39

My mil and fill have a house in Spain. They go on and on about immigration into the uk (polish) but when I pointed out that it is no different they just couldn't see it. I also said the btw all the polish I know work several jobs and pay tax whereas they don't in Spain (other than rate type property tax) but are quite happy to go on and on about how great the healthcare and leisure centres in Spain are but think the polish should be in the uk.

They really really don't see it

esselle Thu 24-Mar-11 10:05:37

So how do 'they' claim all these benefits then? I am Australian and lived in London for 10yrs. I had an ancestory visa as my Grandfather was born there. I worked and paid my taxes and NI the whole time I was there. I married Dh who is a Brit and had DD while I lived there. I could not claim any benefits at all. No child benefit, tax credits, nothing. Dh could claim them though.

I am in no way anti-immigration, i am from an immigrant background. But knee jerk reaction from either side do not help. I am for raising living standards across the whole of the EU because the amount of unemployment amongst the young people who are training for work and already skilled is so sad. Over populating some countries is not the answer.

Gottakeepchanging Thu 24-Mar-11 10:06:15

Whoops they think the polish shouldn't be in the uk

I think this says everything I want to say.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEE0UmFWUeo

ShirleyKnot Thu 24-Mar-11 10:06:32

Oh and Fabbychic said "*What if it is true*, why should anybody be able to come to the UK and be able to claim benefits when they have not contributed to the system?"

WHAT IF IT IS TRUE that Paul McCartney died in 1967 or something and that bloke who we think is Paul McCartney is actually not him, but someone who had cosmetic surgery to look a bit like him, and he is stealing the breath from our babies in the night? WHAT IF that were happening.

That would be bad.

madamimadam Thu 24-Mar-11 10:06:49

Bupcakes, 'Nick Griffins' handmaidens' made me PMSL. (Bet it won't be long before it's an MN name, though sad)

Fabby and LadyThumb. You do know that what you're saying has no actual basis in fact don't you? But then, why let the facts get in the way of good old-fashioned prejudice...

Prejudice that's stoked by the press, imo. Did anyone else see Richard Peppiatt's resignation letter? I thought it gave a pretty accurate summary of how similar stories come to appear in the press in the first place:

www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/mar/04/daily-star-reporter-letter-full

Esselle- the can claim as EU citizens, you are not from the EU.

oh I know the real unemployement that exists around the country - I live in one of the highest areas of unemployment in the southern half of the UK.

RunWithScissors - thankfully exH (and I - but I'm British I was just returning home) came to the UK before they changed it all. We paid the equivalent of 2yrs of our wages in the country we were the living in for his visa, subjected to a interview at the British High Commission by the nastiest man I have ever met <<<<<<shudders and admits it may just have been her hormones as I was 3 months pregnant at that point>>>>>>, and then had an agonising wait while we waited to find out whether they'd let him come with me. If they'd have said no, as they did to many at that time, we'd have been screwed, because I was British (And relations with the UK were pretty bad at that point in Zimbabwe) they had refused to renew my visa (despite the fact I had a job) and was on a one month "rolling" visa which I had to have stamped at the immigration office. They had set a final date in the April when I HAD to leave by.

Anyhow, once we'd paid out all the money his indefinite leave to remain was free 1yr later once he'd submitted all his papers to the immigration people. He looked at citizenship a few years ago but as you say the costs were astronomical ad simply out of our reach despite us both working at the time.

vickibee Thu 24-Mar-11 10:07:56

I work for a Construction Company and we employ two joiners from Lithuania, they are hard working and will work Sats & Sundays when UK workers refuse. They live in meagre bedsits in an undesirable area even though they earn good £ and sen most of it home for thie families. It is strange that they can claim CB when their kids live overseas but other than that they don't claim and pay tax etc..

MsFaithless Thu 24-Mar-11 10:08:26

bupcakes arf at 'illegal asylum seekers'. Can't count how many times I've had that argument...

Britain is awash with them in their free cars, expensive medical conditions, 10 kids each and sense of entitlement apparently.

I do sometimes wonder wish if I was adopted.

cushionyet Thu 24-Mar-11 10:09:00
mummyosaurus Thu 24-Mar-11 10:09:22

A few years ago my MIL was very concerned when a family originating from Nigeria bought the house next to her. She thought they'd fill the roof with relatives and cook curry 24 hours a day, and various other ideas she'd got from being a lifelong Daily mail reader ??? (Such stupid things I had to hide my laughing).

Anyway they moved in and a nicer family you could not meet, absolutely lovely neighbours. Always doing things for her, very considerate and quiet, well behaved kids, hard working and so on.

It was very satisfying to watch her eat those words, and if she ever makes odd comments I only have to remind her about the neighbours...

Hope your mum gets a similar "life lesson" soon.

Joolyjoolyjoo Thu 24-Mar-11 10:10:16

(I just wanted to say I liked the joke about the banker! grin)

hahahaha Jazz just watched your link grin

oh yes the illegal asylum seekers irks me too - you can't by definition be an illegal asylum seeker, as if you're an asylum seeker you have an official legal status hmm

Vickibee- they also weigh up what they can achieve with their wages in their own country. I know of people fron the EU who have worked hard here and bought property from where they are from. Compare that to not even being able to get on the property ladder here. Why should people not have to work a seven day week and spend time with their children?. My husband often spent a weekend in a bedsit as do lots of men, whilst providing for their family but we could not have bought with our money what many can from EU poorer countries.

tryingtoleave Thu 24-Mar-11 10:14:40

I think it is unreasonable to tell anyone to STFU, just because you think your opinions are more righteous than their's. Engage in debate, maybe you will convince them, maybe not...

A friends mum came to pick up my friend, as her car had broken down outside our house, we invited her and her husband in for a cup of tea. She walked around our 3 bed end of terrace and eventually exclaimed:

"It is so easy for you foreigners to come to Britain, and make a new life for yourselves on us".

I dont think I have ever been so offended in my entire life (until then).

I came to London as a student, paid insane tuition fees, lived in a room in a warehouse. Moved to another run-down area to live in a house share, without a bathroom (outdoors toilet, and a shower for all to use in me and my dhs bedroom), had a part time job stacking shelves in the library, and doing evening shifts in a pub. He worked morning and evening shifts in the pub, silver service through an agency serving breakfasts in hotels AND studied computing.

We had no access to anything, other than the NHS. No benefits. We both had to manage to carve out a life in a foreign country, where everything worked differently to how things were at home.

Fast forward a few years, we have managed to start our own business, employ people and pay salaries, pay taxes, after working really hard to get there, and then some silly bint comes and judge us, looking at our house and say:

"It is so easy for you foreigners to come to Britain, and make a new life for yourselves on us".

Yeah right.

There is nothing to say to such ignorance, as they will not be able to understand.

Tatty - that's true - and that decision can takes months or even years to come through. And they don't even get "full" benefits as those on JSA or IS do.

bupcakesandcunting Thu 24-Mar-11 10:17:14

I love you Shirls, you fahking caaaaah.

"Oh don't you just love it when you start to notice that you disagree with almost everything a particular poster says on here, and you think to yourself "cor that person seems a bit of an arse but I wonder if I am being uncharitable thinking that?" - and then they go and post something which definitively proves them to be a complete and utter arse and you thus have the green light to blithely ignore every last word they post from now on."

<nods until head falls off neck>

I'm looking at YOU, FabbyChic.

OliPolly Thu 24-Mar-11 10:17:50

I have been on the receiving end of 'they came here to get our jobs'!

DH and I came to the UK in 2001 and worked our butts off to get a decent education. He was a journalist and I was an insurance professional but when we got here, we worked in nursing homes and cleaned toilets at industrial sites whilst we were sorting out our immigration papers. We lived in a shappy bedsit and never claimed a single penny from the state. DS was born 2 years later and we had an even worse time. I went back to work in a nursing home when DS was 4 weeks old to make ends meet.

Things have since changed. I managed to get a job in insurance and worked my way up. DH started working for a security firm and eventually set up his own company which now employs 16 Brits! We can afford for me to be a SAHM at the moment whilst I wait to go to Uni in Sept. Our children are at a lovely prep school and we own our house.We have never claimed for any benefit or tax credits except the weekly child benefit.

The UK has been extremely kind to us. It has provided us with a safe haven but we have equally worked hard - embracing and appreciating the opportunities that are in here.

Of course there are some who take the micky, but to paint everyone with the same brush is ignorance on so many levels.

OP - YANBU

<<PS - I have always wondered if Nick Griffin will allow my doctor brother to treat his children? >>

bupcakesandcunting Thu 24-Mar-11 10:20:51

"It is so easy for you foreigners to come to Britain, and make a new life for yourselves on us".

Why did you not smack her teeth into her colon?

baroque, I think it should be compulsory viewing by all.

ShirleyKnot Thu 24-Mar-11 10:21:01

I love you too buppy. Yeah, that sort of love. The dirty sort.

AlpinePony Thu 24-Mar-11 10:21:28

If it's not true, why don't you take a look at the Health (I think it was) board from last week about a mn'ers aunt flying in from Bangladesh with TB. I don't think she was coming here for the weather.

AlpinePony Thu 24-Mar-11 10:21:53

I'm not saying it's "always true", but there is evidence on mn alone.

Quint - my exIL's (who I still get on with very well) have had the same they came here with nothing -

SIl1 and her DH, came to the UK (with their 2 young children) , she was on a student visa training to be a nurse, her DH was on a work visa in transport. They managed to both get work visas when she finished her training, he went on to set up his own company (courier/transport), and after managing a care home for a while my SIL has recently set up her own business - and they have also, now got their citizenship. they lived in a lovely house, in a lovely area, with all the mod cons and have worked for every tiny little of it.

SIL2 and her DH came (childess) to the UK, also on work visa (now citizens). He is a pharmacy manager and she has recently done (another! - she already had a string of them, and post grads) degree to work in family support. They too live in a lovely house, with their 2 children that they've had since they've been here.

They have worked their bloody arses off to get where they are now and it most certainly wasn't handed to them on a plate!

bupcakesandcunting Thu 24-Mar-11 10:23:49

"<<PS - I have always wondered if Nick Griffin will allow my doctor brother to treat his children? >>"

I remember watching a "documentary" about the appalling wives of BNP members. One was heavily pregnant and refused to have a non-British midwife deliver her baby.

I sincerley hope that should she have a heart attack/stroke/life-threatening injury, that any non-British doctor leaves her to get on with it. Ignorant, thick, fucking skank.

bupcakes, because I am polite, and I did not want to embarrass my friend any further. smile

But I did say to her "oh, I think it is a lot easier for a Brit to make it in Britain, at least they know how things work here better than most foreigners, and they dont have any language difficulties either".

She did make a catbum face at that.....

OliPolly Thu 24-Mar-11 10:24:46

Baroque - we Zimbabwean are hardworkers!

I think STFU is an entirely reasonable response to someone talking out of their arse actually

bupcakesandcunting Thu 24-Mar-11 10:25:41

"If it's not true, why don't you take a look at the Health (I think it was) board from last week about a mn'ers aunt flying in from Bangladesh with TB. I don't think she was coming here for the weather."

For NHS care or private? Link to thread please. I would like some context.

Snobear4000 Thu 24-Mar-11 10:26:21

My experience is that the Daily Mail types who think they know anything about these sponging immigrants, usually live in areas that are almost completely white, in Fenland villages or the Isle Of Wight or wherever.

I am an immigrant. I was not allowed to claim any benefits for the duration of my first visa and also whilst on an indefinite leave to remain visa. I never have claimed benefits even though I have been a UK citizen now for many years.

Close friends who have emigrated from a country that does not allow dual citizenship, are on indefinite leave, but are not UK citizens. They have children (UK citizens) and jobs here, pay taxes, contribute. However they are not entitled to any tax relief, childcare vouchers, anything. Far from coming over here and going on to benefits, they contribute more to the UK economy by way of being barred from getting the tax relief that UK citizens are entitled to.

OP's mum is speaking out of her arse. As is fabbychic, who no doubt comes from North Queensland where they still have one bar for whites and another for Aboriginies in some of the pubs.

ShirleyKnot Thu 24-Mar-11 10:26:31

Alpine - link please?

Cannot bear looking through that board, it's all vagina migranes and nit breast checks over there.

MsFaithless Thu 24-Mar-11 10:29:19

AP - a MN thread is not 'evidence', it's anecdote at best if I'm being generous, or a bored troll if I'm not.

I dunno if they're not coming here to take our jobs they're here to take our benefits. Bloody fickle furriners should make their minds up wink

Alpine - my exFIL came to the UK just under 2yrs ago - for a 6 month visit. The night before he was due to fly over here he was involved in a car crash. Had a pretty nasty head wound. Thankfully most superficial, but given that the flight was less than 12 hours later flying was out of the question even though he was stiched up and sent home.

He flew here a week later, but was having sight and balance problems. (almost certainly as a result of the accident). He saw many doctors, and consultants while he was here............paid for by his children. I think he had one free bit of medical care when they took him to A&E as they were concerned for him. I think (but am not certain) that emergency treatment is free for anyone. but everything else has to be paid for - unless you're from a country which has a bi-lateral healthcare agreement with the UK.

bupcakesandcunting Thu 24-Mar-11 10:32:42

ROAR at MsFaithless benefits/jobs indecision grin

I called my mum on that once when she was moaning that my deadbeat brother couldn't get a job after he finished college (strange that my two cousins managed) because of "all der powles tacking teh jobz" I was like "yeah yeah, last week they were taking all the benefits, which is it" She glazed over.

AND THEY STEAL ARE WIMMIN.

haha OliPolly - I know - with a few exceptions to the rule (there's always a few aren't there grin - it was certainly a trait I found while out there.

Ciske Thu 24-Mar-11 10:34:29

My friend is from Venezuela and had to sign a form promising she would not claim benefits in the UK before she was allowed to stay. She is married to a Brit and has a child here, but trust me, there were no state hand outs and she has to work for every penny she gets. I'm an EU immigrant and I'm entitled to the same in the UK as I would be in my own country. Just like British people the other way around.

The Daily Mail and its stupid anecdotes are to blame for a lot of unnecessary hostility and misunderstanding.

bupcakes............well that bit is true.........an immigrant (though he wasn't whe I married him) stole me..........(still not sure whether that was a good thing or a bad thing given that we're now getting divorced grin)

Snobear4000 Thu 24-Mar-11 10:35:47

Heh heh I stole one ov your wimmin.

But alot of those coming here are doing so that they can 'take advantage' (i mean that in a possitive way) of opportunities and/or education. Some peoples point is that there should not be a lack of the same opportunities in any country in the EU and if there is then we should be looking to put an end to that. Unless there is the same opportunity how can there be a fairness? because if a job is taken then that is one less, but if the equivalent job exsists in another country then that gives the youth of the UK and the EU,hope. It must be a terrible position to be in to have to leave your family and children, as i see some of the people not from the UK, i work with, having to do. There's more than one point of view to why immigration is not the ideal way to proceed.

ConfessionsOfAnAchingFanjo Thu 24-Mar-11 10:38:24

I'm not allowed any benefits. Had to jump through hoops of fire to be allowed to come into this country. I am allowed to work and pay taxes. My DH is allowed to claim child benefit for our half British child (not me mind, has to be DH). Any health care I recieve here on the NHS is only because Britain has a recipricol <sp?> agreement with my home country meaning Brits get healthcare there.
Will be jumping through more hoops of fire in a few months to be allowed to continue staying here.

May I point out my first (and only) language is English and the head of state of my home country is HRM Elizabeth II.

As someone else has already pointed out. Britain is part of the EU. people from other EU countries may come and go around the EU at will as may Brits.

Yes it is annoying when people start banging on about these things without really knowing what they are talking about. And yes you do have to register at the JC for benefits. But really these conversations are just tedious anyway.

Oh and I did register, when I had my biometrics taken back home, came into the country and had my passport stamped.

cookcleanerchaufferetc Thu 24-Mar-11 10:42:00

There are too many immigrants here ..... Our country is becoming too over populated and we can't afford the cost or the space. Too many immigrants do get benefits as they claim them illegally.

What I hate though is people who are here illegally go on to break the law and don't get deported because a) there is no room at the detention centre so they are asked to come back the next day to get on a plane to go home (of course they are never seen again) or b) it is against their human rights or c) preach about how wonderful their country is and want to have sharia law here (please go back home).

Multiculturalism has failed in this country and we are sinking .....

I do however feel for immigrants who come over to work hard, integrate into British life and make a positive contribution without sending child benefit back to their kids in Poland.

nomoreheels Thu 24-Mar-11 10:42:01

I have worked with asylum seekers for 8 years. I can assure you that they do not have an easy life. A person's situation is slightly better (if you can call it that) when you first claim, because at least you're receiving weekly cash (approx £38/week for a single person) from the post office.

You do get somewhere to live - but this is normally council or (verging on) slum landlord type property that no one else wants to live in. Many people I met suffered regular abuse or violent attacks from locals who were threatened by them being there.

I worked in a drop in advice and people came in every day to ask for help with rat infestations, no heating in winter, no locks on doors, broken windows, mould on walls. Trying to get reasonable repairs done was a nightmare.

If your claim was refused but there was no safe passage of return to your home country, or if you submitted a fresh claim, your only option is to live on Section 4 support which is a £35/week voucher only which can be used in a number of shops. No cash for even a bus fare - you're expected to walk everywhere, even if you're a single parent with a baby. The standard of accommodation for Section 4 was also generally worse.

You could apply for the right to work if you hadn't had an initial decision on your first claim after a year, but a) most people were refused before then and b) trying to apply for it was a very slow and laborious process. I only knew of one client who got it successfully.

It is a very complex system and there are many more examples and rules I could cite, but the main thing to remember is that most people are fleeing torture and persecution because of their political beliefs/gender/sexuality/ethnic group/religion. Those who come with agents are sometimes abused on the trip here and most have no idea where they are headed. The agent controls everything, from the passports to the border control interview. Once they are through the agent usually dumps them at a police station with no information.

Yes, there are of course some who claim asylum who are actually here for economic reasons, but most of the people I worked with this was absolutely not the case, and their lives here were very hard. They did not want to leave their country, were hugely homesick, but feared for their lives.

Even if they were granted status, this was just the start of another set of problems, because unless they spoke good English (and it's worth pointing out that free ESOL classes for asylum seekers were mainly scrapped) most were often pushed into any manual type job that didn't require language skills by the Jobcentre.

Fair enough, it's important to work and integrate into society, and I realise that we cannot subsidise them taking the time to study, but just illustrating the point that it's not exactly a life of luxury and delight.

LDNmummy Thu 24-Mar-11 10:45:27

Fabby et al it doesn't work that way. When you read about things like that it is scaremongering. Yes there are a few places in the system where changes need to be made in terms of immigration, but overall, the percentage of people who are able to get undue benefits and the like is much smaller than you would think. In fact, I know and have seen plenty of MN threads to the effect of people who are 'from' this country actually being the one's who scam the system. You know, like those who pretend they don't have a partner living with them and claim all sorts of free housing and benefits.

The kind of living standard refugees and foreigners who come here seeking asylum have to endure is further below the poverty line than most people assume. Unless you have citizenship or leave to remain in this country, you are not entitled to any of the standard benefits to begin with.

The people who are entitled, are people from other parts of the EU from what I understand. Please correct me if I am wrong.

bupcakesandcunting Thu 24-Mar-11 10:48:02

I've said this on a similar thread before but I have all but given up on trying to correct my mother in her wrong, wrong ways. Instead now, I make up fantastical tales of what "immigrunts" get up to including;

"They're bringing in a new strain of AIDS with them that can be caught when you handle money touched by them" (she turned green at this one)

"They're being given benefits NOT to work"

"Super Mosque with a million seats being built, it will be like Wembley for Islam, only loads bigger. They are making white men on minimum wage build it and they HAVE to observe Ramadam and fast but still work on the building, whilst starving"

"Mohammed al-Fayed will be King of England by 2018"

Proof that bigots are gullible morons.

thank you nomoreheels for that insight - I've been looking for the current amount they get but unable to find it.

"Too many immigrants do get benefits as they claim them illegally. "

would you like me to do some links for your of British people claiming benefits illegaly - there's not shortage of them, a quick google and you'll find 1000's of new stories about British born people fraudulently claiming........

bupcakesandcunting Thu 24-Mar-11 10:49:38

"Multiculturalism has failed in this country and we are sinking ....."

Really? I wish someone had told me earlier. And my Italian paternal family who have lived here since the 1940s seem to have done VERY well not at the expense of Billy Englander hmm

does anyone remember that episode of Secret Millionaire a few years ago. The bloke had really twisted views on asylum seekers and immigrants, and then he volunteered in a hostel type place (can't remember exact details) where aslyum seekers and refugees were living. He met one particular man who was (irrc) an accountant, but because he hadn't been allowed to work while waiting for his decision had been unable to find work.

He had a total transformation of his views and ended up giving this particular bloke a job <<<<<<<I still well up at it - it was so lovely seeing this complete bigot opening his eyes to the reality>>>

TandB Thu 24-Mar-11 10:52:06

Ooh. Can I play the "what if" game too?

What if Captain Jack Sparrow walks in through the door of this Costa right now, snogs my face off and whisks me away down the Thames on a pirate ship.

[waits]

Saltatrix Thu 24-Mar-11 10:52:15

Sounds like Daily Mail headlines to me

oh yes - that bloody multiculturalism

<<<<<<<<<<ignores half forrin children and fabulous forrin, but now resident in the UK exIL's>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

nomoreheels Thu 24-Mar-11 10:53:18

This is a great resource for myth busting re: asylum seekers

www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/practice/basics/truth.htm

ShirleyKnot Thu 24-Mar-11 10:53:27

Them bloody muslamics and their Saskia law.

What if



I win the lottery on Saturday grin

Op: I feel nothing but pity for you - a grown woman attacking her own mother on a website open to the world. If you were my daughter I'd disown you.

wayjay - thanks nomoreheels - they didn't update their information o there for AGES (I used to use it regularly) so I'd given up going, did pop back last year but their "myths" bit was a bit shit compared to what it used to be, I can see now they've improved it again

<<<<<<<<<re-adds the bookmark>>>>>>>>>

nomoreheels- no decent person could ever argue with asylum seeking. It would be to the UK's shame if we are not polilitically as a country making sure that we are not adding to any injustice there and i would include trading fairly as well, as well as allowing entry. I think that it should be included in the curiculum the difference between forms of immigration and asylum seeking. My own teenager (with SN and limited understanding) only really took an interest when the girl on X factor was due to be deported, but speaks more sense than alot of the adults on the subject.

ShirleyKnot Thu 24-Mar-11 10:55:14

kungfu - if that happens - which it just fucking well might do, I hope you will tell him where to go - the answer is BACK HOME! Sod Off Johnny Dep you fucking IMMIGRANT.

OliPolly Thu 24-Mar-11 10:55:18

Immigration is a cycle. A few years ago, you could come from anywhere and apply to train to be a nurse and ypu would be guaranteed a job in the NHS or wherever. The law changed - I think in 2002/3 to that you needed to have been in the UK for at least 3 years to train.

I know loads of people who have trained to be nurses who are now going to Australia because Australia needs nurses.

No doubt Australia wuill shut doors when they have enough and UK will open doors again when the need arises.

Its a cycle of life.

nomoreheels Thu 24-Mar-11 10:55:21

Baroque, yes I saw that! He was helping out at Refugee Action in Birmingham I believe, and other related charities.

It just goes to show that once you actually get to know someone, it can change your views.

bupcakesandcunting Thu 24-Mar-11 10:56:18

"Op: I feel nothing but pity for you - a grown woman attacking her own mother on a website open to the world. If you were my daughter I'd disown you."

I wish she would, TBH.

ShirleyKnot Thu 24-Mar-11 10:56:18

HAHA! Buppy, darling - you got the pity post. sad

Save your pity carmen for those who are too thick to see beyond the end of their own nose. <hums>

oh don't worry carmina - no need to feel pity for those of us who have "attacked" our family on here. Most of us do it with good reason and really couldn't give 2 hoots about it. I don't need pity - I've pretty much cut contact with my famil and my life is so much better.

Blood is thicker than water you numpties

LDNmummy Thu 24-Mar-11 10:58:27

This says it all for me: www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx6lupC6WyE

grin

ShirleyKnot Thu 24-Mar-11 10:58:45

and thickness is in the eye of the beholder.

OliPolly Thu 24-Mar-11 10:58:50

If it weren't for immigration - half the English cricket team wouldnt exist! grin

that was it nomoreheels - I LOVED that episode seeing him change his views once he saw the facts and the reality, and how well they seemed to get on once he employed the bloke.

OliPolly - that's very true about the immigration being a cycle. Though I'm concerned about the recent decision to send back all those Zimbabweans with things as they are now sad

bupcakesandcunting Thu 24-Mar-11 10:59:58

I need the pity.

Actually, I've changed my mind. I think that MN should DELETE all posts where the OP is attacking their mother/father/MIL/FIL/DH/neighbour's dog.

<watches Mumsnet disappear into the ether>

LDNmummy Thu 24-Mar-11 11:00:20

And I would disown bigot family members. The OP is venting about an attitude she doesn't like that is coming from her mother. I have seen much worse on MN.

TotemPole Thu 24-Mar-11 11:00:34

"Super Mosque with a million seats being built, it will be like Wembley for Islam, only loads bigger. They are making white men on minimum wage build it and they HAVE to observe Ramadam and fast but still work on the building, whilst starving"

"Mohammed al-Fayed will be King of England by 2018"

bupcakes, those made me LOL! grin

HAHA OliPolly - that's very true about the cricket - lots of Zimbo's in there grin

bupcakesandcunting Thu 24-Mar-11 11:01:48

Actually, my mother married and went on to reproduce with a forriner.

<own brain pops>

I suppose that Italian is the acceptable face of immigration. They can do spag' bol' and stuff. Instead of doing curry 24 hours and filling the roof with relatives.

Portofino Thu 24-Mar-11 11:01:49

I an EU Immigrant and proud! I claim my child benefit with impunity grin

<<hands 50% of wages to Belgian govt>>

chicaguapa Thu 24-Mar-11 11:02:13

I find it's usually the older generation that have this attitude, the same generation that thinks it's ok to move to the Costa del Sol to live out their retirement, not learn a single word of Spanish and use the healthcare system in Spain without having contributed a penny (or cent or peseta) their whole lives and expect to be cared for when they have an age-related illness. hmm

<<<<<<<<hands bupcakes the invite to the \link{http://thekimchallenge.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/pity-party.jpg\pity party>>>>>>>>>>> grin

bollox fucked it up pitty party

spatchcock Thu 24-Mar-11 11:04:46

LDNmummy shock

That is amazing.

OliPolly Thu 24-Mar-11 11:04:54

I am a proud Zimbo-Brit too Baroque grin

Who knows if Prince Harry marries Chelsy Davy - all Zimbos will go to the wedding and serve sadza!

Sorry OP - it seems me and Baroque are now having our own conversation. I am still on your side smile

bupcakesandcunting Thu 24-Mar-11 11:05:13

Who else is coming to this pity party? I hope there are no foreigners going... [wunk]

LDNMummy PMSL @ "muslamic law" HAHAHA

melikalikimaka Thu 24-Mar-11 11:08:00

Thought this 'new coalition government' was going to do something about this?

FabbyChic - Immigrants can't claim any benefits for at least the first two years - (under the shortest visa, it can be much longer if at all) - not even child benefit, can't have their names on forms for council housing, and are likely be charged for health care privately unless in certain circumstances (I became pregnant in my first year and was given private payment forms for the medical care after hospital treatment for hyperemesis. Thankful, due to an agreement with the US and the specific visa I was on, I could sign up after much paperwork as an NHS patient for the hospital during the pregnancy, but not the other benefits typically given at pregnancy such as dental or eye care).

And I did have to prove my income and ability to provide for myself before I could have either my marriage or indefinite leave to remain visas. I had to give a pile of bank statements, letters from employers, and had to have it all looked over with a fine tooth comb (while paying a few hundred quid for the priviledge of having someone look over the paperwork regardless of the outcome) on top of having my marriage questioned and looked at under a magnifying glass. Immigrating here is not easy - it's an expensive, somewhat degrading process (particularly for Citizenship, it's easily a grand to go through that whole process).

ShirleyKnot Thu 24-Mar-11 11:09:07

yy chica.

I know a couple who moved over to Spain a few years ago. She's very ill and has had exceptional healthcare over there. Now that the economy over there has gone down the pan, they are struggling - I think when they went obviously the exchange rate was better and the food was cheaper etc etc. And of course they weren't having to pay rates or owt like that. They are utterly skint now and have decided that the only option left open to them now if to come back to the UK and go on benefits.

This is HONESTLY the truth. I'm not sure what part of this I'm meant to be cross about.

ConfessionsOfAnAchingFanjo Thu 24-Mar-11 11:09:10

Realise I got my rantypants on. Wasn't ranting at you Bupcakes as I did actually get what your OP was saying (that your Mum is a right dafty). Once I started typing that red mist came down.

I do wonder what BNP types make of us colonial types coming back to Blightly, with our undiluted blood and funny accents.

MsFaithless Thu 24-Mar-11 11:10:52

Chica my mother has a penchant for moving to various foreign countries to work because the money is better and she doesn't have to pay UK tax.

Economic migrant much?

Apparently it's different

She'd never marry a furriner though bupcakes grin

You can tell we have fun at family parties... Yes the whole family share her views too. Sigh.

coccyx Thu 24-Mar-11 11:10:56

Plenty of people who are born here who contribute nothing and never will and they can still claim numerous benefits

nomoreheels Thu 24-Mar-11 11:11:32

BTW I am Canadian and also came here on an ancestry visa. I didn't have to line up a job before I arrived, but as others have said you have zero recourse to public funds for 4 years apart from the NHS. Oh, and bizarrely I was allowed to vote since I was Commonwealth.

Even after getting ILR in 2003 I have never claimed a penny for anything else in the 12 years I've been here, apart from a tiny bit of SSP in the last few months, and now SMP and CB come June.

Sadza and Castle grin

I think the Castle would be infinitely better than the wha was it Colmobard 57 (ir was it 37, or 47?) and another really cheap one that tasted like vinegar

<<<<<<<<ignores the fact that we're hijacking the thread>>>>>>>>>

melikalikimaka Thu 24-Mar-11 11:12:04

True coccyx, we have already enough to cope with.

reelingintheyears Thu 24-Mar-11 11:14:03

My SIL and family live in Australia and got citizenship there recently.....

DNs FB has currently got a load of racist remarks that are really offensive about 'fucking immigrants' etc

'dirty worm ridden black c**ts' .

'They should be put on a boat and sent back to their war torn countries'.

I deleted SIL last year after a similar outburst.

They are so thick they don't seem to realise that THEY are immigrants.
I think i'll stay in England.

sprogger Thu 24-Mar-11 11:14:46

I will never understand why people believe "muliculturalism has failed and we are sinking." Sinking? Ethnic minorities make up eight percent of the population. EIGHT PERCENT.

*I know this cos I am an immigrant and after registering to spend many years paying taxes and NI without recourse to public funds, I took your damned citizenship test.

I also steals your menz.

MsFaithless Thu 24-Mar-11 11:15:21

<shows Brit passport at door and joins pity party>

<gets dissapointed about lack of criticism for slagging racist mother off on t'internet>

<slinks in to corner with drink and pretends to text>

sprogger - I am in awe of anyone who has taken and passed the citizenship test - I've been on numerous threads here on MN (and other forum) where the sample test has been done for fun by British people, born and bred in here.........and most of them failed grin

reelingintheyears Thu 24-Mar-11 11:16:18

BTW i know this because SIL is still on DPs FB and DNs posts came up on hers as she had commented so DP checked it out and was shock

DC are appalled.

LDNmummy Thu 24-Mar-11 11:18:02

Well I'm off to eat the homemade Ethiopian food my lovely Ethiopian friend went through pains to make and get to me as I have been craving it. There are definitely some imports that come with immigration I cannot live without smile

And judging from my group of friends which includes German, Spanish, Polish, Ethiopian, Zimbabwean, Turkish, Egyptian, Tunisian, Jamaican, Colombian, Sudanese, Arabic, Lithuanian, Japanese, Morrocan and me (mixed heritage) etc... Multiculturalism has not failed, there is something else missing, and that is education.

TandB Thu 24-Mar-11 11:18:48

My gran used to go off on one along the lines of OP's mum. She hated being reminded that she was the daughter of a Latvian immigrant.

Sorry all. I am not completely English. Guess I wont be invited to the party.

Never mind. I am sure I will be sailing off into the sunset with jonny deep by then. Off to someone else's country to steal their jobs.

LDNmummy Thu 24-Mar-11 11:19:28

Oh, almost forgot Indian and Pakistani. Probably a few more in there but cannot remember right now.

Op: ask yourself this - do benefit claiming immigrants give a flying fuck about me? - would any of them care if I dropped dead tomorrow? so why am I putting their feelings before those of my own mother?

Of course you can put your mother right on these issues - but to take the piss out of her on an Internet forum is pretty low.
It's disrespectful to say the least.

bupcakesandcunting Thu 24-Mar-11 11:20:20

I love multiculturalimsismmism.

It gave us:

kebabs
pizza
curry

What's not to like?! <not being entirely serious>

manfromCUK Thu 24-Mar-11 11:20:41

I have wondered about this stuff for ages. On the one hand, it appears to me that half the claims in the press are a load of RRRRs - it seems they are according to this
tabloid-watch.blogspot.com/2009/10/how-pcc-doesnt-work.html

On the other hand, the record of governments and civil servants in telling the truth about who's been paid what (often in error) isn't exactly outstanding.

ShirleyKnot Thu 24-Mar-11 11:21:37

Bloody hell. Get over yourself carmina.

Snobear4000 Thu 24-Mar-11 11:22:00

Carmina seems to have had a Daily Mail OD. Someone call an ambulance.

erm Carmina, bupcakes is not the ops real name. I doubt her mother knows. And we dont know either of them, so really, it is irrelevant.

MsFaithless Thu 24-Mar-11 11:23:56

Woken up with a touch of worthyness today carmina?

foreverondiet Thu 24-Mar-11 11:25:02

I know someone with an EU passport, has never lived or worked in the EU (has dual nationality) has been living here for 5 years claiming benefits, and has not intention of working. He'd leave if the benefits were withdrawn. And no other EU countries have tighter restrictions about who can claim benefits.

Sorry OP but your mum is right.

"do benefit claiming immigrants give a flying fuck about me"

well despite the fact that we're divorcing I'm prettty sure while exH was unemployed earlier this year and last year that if I'd dropped dead he would have given a flying fuck......

Kungfupanda - I handed out the invites - you can come to the pity party as well - it's ok we don't discriminate here (and besides I have half forrin chidren - one with a "made in Zimbabwe tag" on his arse wink)

sprogger Thu 24-Mar-11 11:25:58

Well, I'm feeling quite warmly towards the OP.

My PILs also give me the "Oh, but you're different," line. I think they honestly believe I am some sort of exceptional immigrant.

MsFaithless Thu 24-Mar-11 11:26:03

Oh and I fully intend to tell my mother I've been laughing at her racist weirdness on the internet, she'll laugh at me for being an oversensitive lefty.

Does that make it even?

Doubt the benefit claiming immigrants will give a flying fuck.

TandB Thu 24-Mar-11 11:26:37

[ponders]

Regarding blood being thicker than water. Can anyone explain why this is actually apparently a good thing?

What actual purpose does it serve? I mean, obviously for keeping your heart pumping you probably want the slightly thicker blood. I don't suppose water would do much good. But under what circumstances would you actually try to inject yourself with water? I am sure the are other things that you could use.

I can't really think of any circumstances where I might think 'ooh, better use blood as it is thicker'. Except for a thick liquid competition obviously. In which case I would probably use treacle.

So why does no one ever say treacle is thicker than blood.

"do benefit claiming people give a flying fuck about me"

no they dont Carmina, I betcha!

TandB Thu 24-Mar-11 11:29:26

Thank you Baroque!

ShirleyKnot Thu 24-Mar-11 11:29:38

Blood being thicker than water is ACTUALLY a bastardised way of talking about the "purity" of blood.

So it's really bad actually.

MsFaithless Thu 24-Mar-11 11:30:38

Asprin and warfarin thin the blood.

Does that make the takers of said drugs less related or important?

Or does gunky thick stroke inducing blood make you more related to your family?

So many questions...

<confused>

TandB Thu 24-Mar-11 11:31:24

[looks blankly at ShirleyKnot]

So what about the treacle?

TandB Thu 24-Mar-11 11:32:34

And where does blue blood come into it?

sprogger Thu 24-Mar-11 11:32:36

I like treacle.

SenoritaViva Thu 24-Mar-11 11:33:39

Sorry if someone else has already asked this (got to get to work). But if you don't have to register to get benefits then how the hell do you get them?!

"do benefit claiming people give a flying fuck about me"- no of course they dont hmm cos people on benefits never train to be; nurses, paramedics, police, army personal, HCA's, counsellors, or do voluntary jobs etc, and neither do immigrants hmm

TandB Thu 24-Mar-11 11:35:55

Senorita. They get given to you out of the money raised from fining those who are rude to relatives on anonymous forums. The Rude Police come and collect it and give it to the more deserving.

VajazzHands Thu 24-Mar-11 11:36:13

FabbyChic Thu 24-Mar-11 09:32:32

What if it is true, why should anybody be able to come to the UK and be able to claim benefits when they have not contributed to the system? Why should anybody get free health care when they have never lived here or tried to integrate into our society?I'm sick of this free for all, it doesn't happen in Australia if you want to go there you need finances to be able to support yourself.There are far too many freeloaders coming into the UK and reaping the rewards of our free for all state.

There are far too many freeloaders already liviing in the UK (and british) and reaping the rewards of our free for all state.

fixed it for you.

love,
an immigrant

ps please shut up. As stupid is often contagious

Keep up Senorita, you get handed a whole pile of used notes as you enter the country. Either at Gatwick or under a lorry in Dover.
My Dsis was a nasty racist, that changed when a very lovely Indian doctor saved my DN life. The tragedy of it all, the Dr is the only 'nice' Indian she's ever met. To save myself having another brain bleed, we avoid the topic of race.

ShirleyKnot Thu 24-Mar-11 11:36:54

Blue blood is from all the ink the kings used to drink.

Are you thick?

TandB Thu 24-Mar-11 11:38:41

Definitely thicker than water.

[proud]

'blood is thicker than water' Means you should put the needs and feelings of your family before complete strangers.

And I know it's anonymous on here but the sentiment is the same ( or should be )

Maybe as a mother I find it hard to understand why daughters would take this approach - I hope I mean more to my kids than MN thread material.

Anyway - I'll leave you to it - have fun.

SenoritaViva Thu 24-Mar-11 11:41:13

Yes, I am indeed slow. Worse still, I am slow and married to an 'immigrant' (despite being a British passport holder BEFORE I met him).

ShirleyKnot Thu 24-Mar-11 11:41:16

I feel sorry for you and you should TAKE A BLOODY GOOD LOOK AT YOURSELF.

SenoritaViva Thu 24-Mar-11 11:41:43

KungFu grin

prettybird Thu 24-Mar-11 11:44:05

Can I join the party too? I might be disqualified though 'cos shock I was born in South Africa and came here as an immigrant age 3.

My dad had to pay his own way through medical school and prove he was indeed married to my mum (who was able to get a British passport 'cos she happened to have been born here purely because her father was working here during the war) before he (and my brother and I) could be naturalised after the requisite number of years.

My brother (also born abroad) could marry a foreigner (and indeed, has) and bring her in - but I couldn't, 'cos I wasn't born in the UK hmm ....just as well dh is Scottish thru' and thru' then! grin

I'm white though - does that make a difference? hmm (as an aside: just what category do I put myself under in the Census White - "Mongrel" ?wink)

TandB Thu 24-Mar-11 11:45:04

But why does it mean that? How oes the viscosity of a bodily fluid equate to a moral responsibility to prioritise your relatives?

[really wants to know]

TandB Thu 24-Mar-11 11:47:37

My great grandmother had to pay a fee tobe naturalised after she married a Latvian. Even though she was British. She didn't mind paying the fee but by all accounts she nearly went into orbit when she had to swear allegiance to the queen. She was very patriotic and took it as a personal insult.

carminaburana- perhaps put the needs of your family first but not their feelings and yes you can tell someone, even your own mother, that they are wrong, if they are spouting hatred and intolerance.

bupcakesandcunting Thu 24-Mar-11 11:52:34

'blood is thicker than water' Means you should put the needs and feelings of your family before complete strangers'

So I should place my mother's "need" to be a racist over the needs of...who exactly? Whose needs am I putting before hers by challenging her wrong, wrong views? hmm I will challenge racial intolerance whoever it comes from or else that just makes me a hypocrite if I accept it from family but not from strangers. I find your whole argument on this weird, to be honest.

oh yeah - and did I mention - when I came back t the UK, after 2 1/2yrs living and work abroad, having never paid a penny in UK tax - I was 4 months pregnant, so I launched staright into NHS useage, uncompliated pregnancy but then had a CS (they cost lots of money), and then DS1 was at the doctors regularly with chest infections................oops wink (oh and I'm on benefits now shock

with regards to blood being thicker than water, well I've come to the conclusion that most of my family either have water running round their veins, or very thin blood (or my closest friends have super thick blood)........

Prettybird - yes you may join the party as well. The only people that are excluded are ignorant bigots, racists, holier than thou types...........if you get my drift wink

slug Thu 24-Mar-11 11:58:52

Another forriner.

Like so many others, when I came to the UK I worked in the pre minimum wage, dead end job part of the economy. It's teeming with overqualified, bloody hard working people. The reasons the "immigrants are taking our jobs" is because none of the Brits will do them. To be honest, I never found it difficult to get work. I just had to be prepared to get up early, turn up on time and not piss about on the job. I had a job interview two days ago. They were stunned at the variety of jobs I had done, so I explained to them the reality of having no recourse to benefits. You just do whatever you can to keep body and soul together.

And like so many white immigrants, I agree, there's a lot of veiled racism out there. I'm not obviously an immigrant until I open my mouth. wink

shmoz Thu 24-Mar-11 12:02:34

Baroque can I join please.
My credentials:

I have been 'stolen' by Polish man (not Mr Sheen, too much facial hair).
Said Polish man has never claimed UK benefits
I have DS who is half Polish.

but...

I am (whispers) Welsh.

oooooo now smoz - Welsh, well I'll have to check to see if you're eligible wink I'll get back to you in a few years after I've made DS3 lunch grin

bupcakesandcunting Thu 24-Mar-11 12:05:24

shmoz get out of this thread, stinking it right up with your leeks and kasanka wink

TandB Thu 24-Mar-11 12:05:31

What if one relative has thicker blood than another? Do you have to stick a pin in them to find out whose needs to prioritise?

shmoz Thu 24-Mar-11 12:07:35

I'll bring some welsh cakes if that helps. sad

<lurks>

TotemPole Thu 24-Mar-11 12:10:11

I am (whispers) Welsh.

That's worse. I hope you've had the decency to stay in Wales, where you belong. <sticking out tongue smiley>

oh okay then - just don't go stealing our men or jobs ok wink

<<<<<<scoffs welsh cakes>>>>

bupcakesandcunting Thu 24-Mar-11 12:12:46

Ooh I do love a welsh cake

Op; of course you challenge it - but you do it face to face in RL - what was the point of this thread? To get other people to join in the attack? And it's ironic in the extreme that in your attempt at love and understanding you want to tell your mum to STFU and think she's reached the pinnacle of twattery.
Where are you learning your love & tolerance from? Robert Mugabes 10 tips for a harmonious life?

sorry bupcakes - I finished them all grin

expatinscotland Thu 24-Mar-11 12:19:12

Walks in . . . Oh, another benefits thread . . . walks back out.

actually going back to the blood/water thing...........I much prefer water to blood anyhow wink

no no no expat - it's ok you can stay - come and join our pity party grin (tis actually an immigration thread not a benefits one wink)

bupcakesandcunting Thu 24-Mar-11 12:24:35

carmina, as I said further up thread, I HAVE challenged directly and have tried to explain why she is wrong.

The point of this thread was to ask if I am BU to tell her to shut up when she starts spouting her hate-spew. I don't know if you missed that bit of my opening post?

I don't want "love and understanding" I'm not John bloody Lennon. Just a bit of regard for the truth would be nice. And since she is spouting this shit in front of my kid I think I am right to be pissed off with it.

Oh and yeah comparing me to a genocidal despot because I don't like racist chit-chat under my roof? Get some perspective, you strange person.

and carmina - stick this in your pipe and smoke it, I have ranted about all of my family on here. I had (maybe still have....) an informant following me on here, someone either in, or very close to my family that passes on what I say.

I DON'T CARE

<<<<<<<is trying desperately hard to seen the similarities between Mugabe and bupcakes>>>>>>>

Nope sorry I'm really really struggling with that one.

EldritchCleavage Thu 24-Mar-11 12:27:52

There is another side to the immigration issue but not the one Fabby thinks.

The vast majority of those working here illegally will have a British boss/gang master and the profits of their underpaid labour will probably be lining the pockets of British companies and individuals (witness the scandal in London of contract cleaners at the House of Commons not paid a living or even the minimum wage once agency fees are deducted. Our own Parliament colludes with this).

Plenty of British companies and people are happy to use immigration to try and drive down wages, health and safety standards and working conditions-I think some would be happier if this country treated its labour force the way they do in undemocratic third world countries.

Plenty of employers seem to be happy with a workforce they can insult, shout at and generally treat like dirt instead of British born and raised citizens who would be unlikely to tolerate it.

So if life is so hard for ordinary working people and unskilled jobs so scarce, why are the handmaidens of Nick Griffin so angry with immigrants and not the people who really brought this situation about and proft from it?

The only answer I can come up with is it is more important to some to be racist and have someone to hate and look down on than actually have to think and do something to bring about reform.

Stop hating and join a trade union.

TotemPole Thu 24-Mar-11 12:28:25

I just watched that EDL video. grin

LOL @ the muslamic ray guns.

ShirleyKnot Thu 24-Mar-11 12:29:24

Robert Mugabe is well 2008.

Also, don't you think that bringing Robert Mugabe into this particular thread was a bit of a cunty thing to do?

I do. I think that was a shitty thing to do and you should have a really good look at yourself.

EldritchCleavage Thu 24-Mar-11 12:30:10

I am now imagining a Spartacus scenario where sundry Mumsnetters defend Bupcakes by standing up ddeclaring "^I^ am Robert Mugabe".

I've met Mugabe (and shook his hand) if that counts?????? (it was before he totally lost the plot)

Indeed. Blorry forriners. My DH is one, though I forgive him for it, just about. Being an out-of-EU forriner, he's not allowed any benefits except the NHS. So he's had to actually get a job and work hard and, get this, pay loads and loads of taxes that lazy-arsed Brits* use to live on benefits.

* disclaimer - I am only talking about the ones who genuinely are lazy, not people on benefits out of genuine need. I know the responses such comments can get around here! wink

TotemPole Thu 24-Mar-11 12:33:22

Do you remember that tragic case a few years back of the immigrant cockle pickers drowning?

Annie - can I, as a benefits claimant, thank your DH for working hard and paying taxes to support me while I'm "here".

Totem - I do and while nothing of that magnitude has happened since \linkhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-11619733\\potential situations like it still exist}

Lavitabellissima Thu 24-Mar-11 12:37:41

Sil in law moved here from Italy a year ago to start her own business, she applied for Child benefit for her only child. She has still not received a penny even though she applied 12 months ago, we've chased it and been told to call back at the end of April confused
I gave birth in November and received CB in December.

TotemPole Thu 24-Mar-11 12:41:10

Baroque, that's awful. sad

TotemPole Thu 24-Mar-11 12:46:03

After the gangmasters had deducted "debts" from their pay packets they were left with only £1 to live on per week.

It's shocking. You can't live off £1 a week anywhere in the UK.

bupcakesandcunting Thu 24-Mar-11 12:54:56

I actually feel more sorry for the poor people who come here thinking it will solve all their problems, believing that we are a tolerant and safe country.

Last year, not far from where I live, a Polish truck driver was beaten to death in the cab of his truck. He left his homeland for that?

this report is about child trafficking to the UK for labour purpose - but does also mention adults as well

Explotation of foreign workers to is alive and sadly well in the UK, often you only hear about the women trafficked and forced into the sex industry - but the problem is much deeper than that. And many of them will come to the UK as "legal" immigrant (I use the word loosely as their exploitation will have started before they even apply for a visa or get a ticket here)

absolutely bupcakes - it much be an awful shock to come here thinking that they can build a future here and to find such prejudice and mistrust,

DuelingFanjo Thu 24-Mar-11 13:18:39

"Many posters on MN do not want to acknowledge the real unemployment that exsists around the country and immigration impacts on this further. The immigrants do not work any harder or for less by the way, that has been fabricated. I live amongst people who have never worked but are actively seeking work, the work is not there. The amount of people living off benefits as a lifestyle choice is small. "

depends where you are. Where I live there are Poles living 10 to a house working at the chicken factory because no one here wants to give up their benefits to work with poultry carcases.

round here they tend to take the temp, or seasonal jobs - the types which many people on benefits (espciall those with chidlren) are reluctant to take - with good reason - it can leave you really really srewed!

RobF Thu 24-Mar-11 13:24:08

I cannot blame people for being angry with the amount of immigration NL allowed into this country. It really hasn't any positive effect on the lives of indigenous Brits, except for those that are already wealthy, it has just made things harder for hard-working people that just want to get on. It is hard for parents to know that the world is a harsher place for their children than it was for them. Wages are far lower than they were a generation ago but the cost of living is far higher. I know I will NEVER vote for Labour again, they completely betrayed the very people the party was set up to represent.

I don't blame immigrants for coming here though, I would do the same in their position. I blame the scumbag politicians that allowed it to happen.

mamushi Thu 24-Mar-11 13:30:33

My DH is Polish and i now have loads of Polish friends, singles an families, and none of them i know claim any benefits at all! Rather they all work hard in factories and warehouses doing long hours an using that money to suport their families an kids - AND NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT IT! Damned grateful to have jobs in the first place!

You'll get a few bad eggs in every basket but overall - BUT much better work ethic than many brit young men in the same postition.

At the warehouse where DH works they often use agency workers to fill gaps in labour force - many times he has seen polish lads come in an work their socks off an get given permanaent jobs.

And many many times he has seen young brit lads (not all - but a lot) come in, late every day for first week, or off sick after one day, or turning up drunk or hungover, or working so slowly its hardly worth being there!!!! True

What are these firms supposed to do - employ these idiots just because they are British!

Portofino Thu 24-Mar-11 13:33:30

"Where I live there are Poles living 10 to a house working at the chicken factory because no one here wants to give up their benefits to work with poultry carcases." I guess it depends what wages that factory pays though.

If I was going to be no better off for working a long shift doing something very unpleasant, I'd take the benefits too. Imho - it is the system that is wrong. The tax/benefits system is so bloody complicated it disincentivises people to take "any job". As baroque says above <<waves>> there is plenty of seasonal work available - but if you are going to get into schtuck with your child tax credits/housing benefit etc etc, well you are not going to bother are you? The immigrants of course aren't affected by this. So you could have swathes of people working at least some of the time if the system was simpler.

VajazzHands Thu 24-Mar-11 13:33:31

robf, you know that the british occasionally move abroad too right? That on this planet people may be born in one place and that moving to another isn't that big a deal. You are not required, nor shoudl you be blocked from moving from the place you were randomly born.

Do people forget that the British move abroad or because they are British are they actually improving the countries they go to? Is that the way some people genuinely see it?

bupcakesandcunting Thu 24-Mar-11 13:35:54

"indigenous Brits"

Indigenous Brits is a bloody misnomer. We're made of all sorts of races. Nords, Germanic, Romans... hmm

LDNmummy Thu 24-Mar-11 13:36:06

"It really hasn't any positive effect on the lives of indigenous Brits"

Sorry what was that again? Indigenous Brits?

Please explain what that is because i have never come across one in my life and have lived in Britain 20 years.

"It really hasn't any positive effect on the lives of indigenous Brits"

Really? You're sure about that? No indigenous Brit (I'm presuming you mean white hmm), has even hd any benefit from a foreigner.................

wow - where do these people live for that to have happened? (oh I get it - our'e talking about the 5 million + British expats living overseas...............)

nomoreheels Thu 24-Mar-11 13:38:29

There was a great documentary on a few months ago challenging the myths re: migrant EU workers. Basically virtually none of the Brits on benefits who were given trial runs at said jobs (asparagus harvesting, veg packing) did very well or were interested in the work. Some didn't even turn up.

I think one bloke did ok in the veg packing after a very shaky start, and applied for a position, but was told there wasn't anything going at the time. (I wonder if they didn't like his attitude - he was very begrudging about being there in the first place - so fair enough.)

Obviously it was only a small section of society, but interesting nevertheless.

LDNmummy Thu 24-Mar-11 13:40:22

I watched that too nomoreheels, was very apalling.

OliPolly Thu 24-Mar-11 13:41:04

Serious question:

I know a few people who are here 'illegally' because they are failed asylum seekers who cannot be deported back to Zimbabwe for obvious reasons. They are not on benefits and are not in social housing. They then work with forged documents. Their salaries have tax and NI contributions deducted. Where is the money going? They can never claim for tax credit or child benefit. They can vote though hmm How is this person the same as someone who has never worked?

I'm just think of me personally in terms of forriners

Local corner shop - open 7-11pm 365 days of the year - owned by foreigners (hehe OluPolly - this'll make you laugh - they're Zimbabweans grin)
exSIL's, DH - phramacy mangager, a mine of wonderful information for me personally when it comes to over the counter medications, and I'm sure in his job he's helped many people
Most of the GP#s at my doctors surgery - foreign
my best friend - of (recent) Irish descent
plus a multiude of other foreign workers who have at one point or other been of use to me

Oli - did you not see the recent decision? They've decided that failed asylum seekers can be sent back to Zimbabwe sad - apparently (despite continued violence since the last elections, and now talk of more elections another increase) that it's safe enough for them to go back.

for Oli personally I think they're talking crap - they basically sayin if they have Zanu-PF connections they'll be fine. Yeah right tell that to my exFIL who was beaten up very badly a couple of years ago, and continues to suffer harassment. Not only was he a known Zanu-PF supporter, he was an active member.........but they got wind of the fact that he has family in the UK, and that most of his family (including 5 out of his 6 children) were MDC supporters and that was enough fuel for them.

nomoreheels Thu 24-Mar-11 13:49:14

Olipolly, I have seen similar cases from time to time. Like anywhere in the world, for the right price it's possible to get forged passports, apply for NI numbers and work. However, it's hugely risky & they would need to stay off the radar - get caught and you face a major prison sentence, and deportation afterwards.

The tax money would just go into the pot and be used as normal I would have thought.

Not sure what your last question is though? Maybe I'm just not understanding it.

OliPolly Thu 24-Mar-11 13:49:52

Yeah, I heard about the decision but hadn't realised that they have started reinforcing it. Not a good idea with elections looming.

I find that some people are really surprised that foreigners know a thing or two. Someone asked me in 2002 if I had ever come across a computer? hmm Must have thought that I had just come out of a cave in my loinskin grin

Best one was ' So, how did you get here then?'

DH response - 'By plane - did you think I walked?'

marmaladetwatkins Thu 24-Mar-11 13:52:42

For me:

My dad or else I wouldn't be here wink

The lovely, lovely Ugandan doctor who helped my DS when he was nine months old and really sick with norovirus and severly dehydrated. This doctor sat and syringe-fed my son with 50ml of Diorolyte for 2 hours and calmed me and DH right down. One of the nicest doctors I have ever met.

Luis the Portuguese waiter in our local Pizz Express for giving me nice pizza.

(BTW, 'tis I, Bupcakes, with a new name!)

haha at the computer thing - I used to head off to an internet cafe in Harare to access the internet, sadly the school only got it's brand new spaking music and computer building (compete with lots of computers and internet connection) set up after I left working there grin.

I had exH shipped over in a container of tobacco wink

got to ask your DH isn't.........Churchill,, St Georges, or Peterhouse or similar stock is he, arch rivals of those we were wink

OliPolly Thu 24-Mar-11 13:57:28

Baroque - we need a proper chat - such a small world! What school was it? I went to Mabelreign Girls High

<<have said way too much on here, may have to namechange grin>>

OliPolly Thu 24-Mar-11 13:58:45

He was at Prince Edward!

hehe - I worked at PE for quite a while, got married in the school chapel there then went and worked as a TA at the international school (that was possibly the worst work related choice I have ever made............)

RobF Thu 24-Mar-11 13:59:52

"robf, you know that the british occasionally move abroad too right? That on this planet people may be born in one place and that moving to another isn't that big a deal. You are not required, nor shoudl you be blocked from moving from the place you were randomly born."
How was I "randomly" born here. I was born here because my parents were British. If my parents were not British and I was born in another country, I would not be the same person i am today.

"Do people forget that the British move abroad or because they are British are they actually improving the countries they go to? Is that the way some people genuinely see it?"
I don't think British people emigrate en masse to countries with higher standards of living than Britain and are happy to do lowly paid jobs because that money will go a lot further in Britain.

British people who emigrate are much more likely to be highly skilled than immigrants who come here, most of whom are only semi-skilled or unskilled.

And I do consider myself an indigenous Brit. I don't know of any foreign ancestry. I hate the whole "we are all the children immigrants" bullshit, because it's clear double standards from the liberal left, they will not apply the same rules to any of their "pets" such as the Palestinians, native Americans, Aborigines, Maori etc. Those people are all the children of immigrants too.

iskra Thu 24-Mar-11 13:59:54

My dad was a political refugee in the 70s. And he's a white doctor who's worked for the NHS for 30 plus years. Look forward to seeing the BNP sending him home.

OMG!!!! He's a Tiger grin I married an Old Hararian shock! <<<<<<<<wonders how old Oli's DH is and whether he was at the school when I was working there>>>>>>>>

fark me - it'sa bloody small world, it really is - I have to go out now to toddlers - but I'll be back later grin

"we'll keep the torch ablaze"

OliPolly Thu 24-Mar-11 14:03:42

juicy Baroque! He is 36 and I am in my early 30s wink

marmaladetwatkins Thu 24-Mar-11 14:08:19

"British people who emigrate are much more likely to be highly skilled than immigrants who come here, most of whom are only semi-skilled or unskilled."

Oh yeah, right. Like the octogenarian brigade on the Costas. The only skill they're taking to Spain is tea-drinking and draughts-playing skills hmm

"And I do consider myself an indigenous Brit. I don't know of any foreign ancestry"

Maybe no foreign ancestry from your recent descendants but it is FACT that indigenous Brits stopped existing bloody hundreds of years ago when they were practically wiped out by the invading Romans/Visigoths/Normans/Vikings. Or are you seriously telling me that your family is descended from one of the few English tribes who survived the rape and pillage of this land?

iskra Thu 24-Mar-11 14:10:06

There was a great programme several years ago called "100% English" or something like that, where various racists had their global DNA tested. NONE of them was 100% British, or even 100% northern European.

ShirleyKnot Thu 24-Mar-11 14:11:16

1) maramalade - stop it and go back to your usual name now please. ThanksVeryMuch

2) RonF you are silly. Everyone has foreign ancestory.

OliPolly Thu 24-Mar-11 14:11:31

Well I am glad the whole of UK is not like Midsomer wink

BulletWithAName Thu 24-Mar-11 14:12:13

If you're an immigrant (EU, non- EU, whatever) who comes here to work and better your life- then great, please come here and share your skills and boost the economy.

If you're just a free-loader (EU benefit tourist, I know that non EU residents and asylum seekers can't claim benefits before someone says that), then you shouldn't be allowed to remain here! What is so wrong about that?!

I say this as the grandaughter of non-EU immigrants, and my father (non-white) feels the same.

marmaladetwatkins Thu 24-Mar-11 14:16:08

Shirley lay off the cider now, please. Your spelling is all over the gaff and your ppsting on wrong threads and just being a general ball ache. Go and sober up somewhere quiet kfanksbye.

RonF (will call you Ron from now on if you don't mind) if you are claiming to be pure English then you should really get in touch with Nick Griffin. He has a house made of diamonds and gold with your name on it. You are his Messiah.

Jackin Thu 24-Mar-11 14:20:19

OK everyone.......... "He's not the messiah he's a very silly boy"

Jackin Thu 24-Mar-11 14:22:10

Oh is the deal with midsomer that there is only whites there? Never watched it.

ShirleyKnot Thu 24-Mar-11 14:23:06

God, I would totally love to be pissed. I have just eaten a baguette made of brie though. I've been on some right good threads today. I've done licky mooncup stuff, period cakes, ferry jackets, whispering in kitchens, i-pod, I called him RonF on purpose. Shut up.

TotemPole Thu 24-Mar-11 14:24:01

What about people who come here and work and send/spend the money in different countries? What are your opinions on that?

Many from the poorer countries send money home to their families. Plenty of Aussies & Kiwis get a 2 year working visa, save up, then use this for funding trips round Europe and Asia. I remember an ex saved £10,000 and promptly took that off to Europe to spend.

I know Brits work e.g. building sites in Dubai/Germany and send the money home to their families.

But I wonder if more is sent out of the country than sent back. Does if affect the economy that much?

Jackin Thu 24-Mar-11 14:24:48

licky mooncup? grin

marmaladetwatkins Thu 24-Mar-11 14:26:01

The actual baguette was made of brie? That's amazing. I would like one made of stilton.

Link to period cakes please, you pissed-up old soak.

ShirleyKnot Thu 24-Mar-11 14:26:40

Yes. Can you have a bit of the oral (receiving) when you've got your mooncup in? I said "fucking hell" but others seemed ok with it.

Oh and brushing teeth in shower/hot water thread as well. That one is well shock

Jackin Thu 24-Mar-11 14:26:42

shock

ShirleyKnot Thu 24-Mar-11 14:27:55

It's in _chat and it's called something like "My DH wants to buy my DD a big old tampon cake"

Look for it yourself you lazy cow.

ShirleyKnot Thu 24-Mar-11 14:28:35

Jackin - I KNOW! HOT WATER TEETH BRUSHING!!!

prettybird Thu 24-Mar-11 14:30:05

Well, my dad contributed 30 years of skilled work to the NHS as a doctor, having come to this country and funded his own way through medical school.

Bullet must be pretty unique: I know of no-one who is 100% pure "British" (what does that mean anyway: the Britons were one small tribe, what about the Celts?). Even my dh, who doesn't know of any "foreign" blood in his lineage, acknowledges that there probably is. Given that he is Scottish for many generations back, where else does the olive skin and black eyes come from? hmm (our theory is a ship-wrecked Spaniard from the Armada wink).

My own lineage is: part English, part German, part Swedish, part Irish, part french Huguenot, part Danish, part Australian, part South African - but I only know that becasue someone has done one side of the paternal family tree back to 1500 and I know a few generations back on the maternal side.

Even the Royal family are not "indigenous British" grin

prettybird Thu 24-Mar-11 14:31:06

SOrry - not Bullet, RonF blush

ha ha ha - only on MN would I be pulled up for not using the de rigueur dictator

marmaladetwatkins Thu 24-Mar-11 14:34:59

Shirley is part labrador.

Not for using the wrong dictator, just for using a dictator at all in the context you used it. I thought you were leaving this thread anyway, carmina? It's like having a big black raincloud of fucking DOOM with you hovering about.

Jackin Thu 24-Mar-11 14:38:19

My fil is spanish and arrived in britain in the 60's. He got a job waiting and worked his way up to owning his own 4 star restaurant before retiring. He has employed many people who have paid tax etc. So overall I think we as a country are much better with him than without. People need to get a proper grip.

Oh and Shirly brushing teeth in the shower is unhygenic! smile

Jackin Thu 24-Mar-11 14:42:51

Oh look at this! For the 'Handmaidens' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QAvkFS_cgk

VajazzHands Thu 24-Mar-11 15:04:15

British people who emigrate are much more likely to be highly skilled than immigrants who come here, most of whom are only semi-skilled or unskilled.

loaf OF BALLS. And Id like to see where you get that info.

As for all the unskilled foreigners over here.. Tell that to my entire local doctors surgery.

VajazzHands Thu 24-Mar-11 15:06:27

BTW

I didn't get my job because I worked for less than my british counterparts who applied.

I got it because i was the best one for the job and when they called my previous employers they realised I worked damn hard.

Now who would you hire?

marmaladetwatkins Thu 24-Mar-11 15:09:17

Despite your rightness, Vajazzhands, I am roaring at "loaf of balls"

Mmmmmm, a delicious loaf of balls wink

And the answer to your question to Ron is that he would still hire Billy Englander because he is an indiginous Brit. Ha hah ha ha ha ha ha ha.

OliPolly Thu 24-Mar-11 15:09:21

yep.

Job advertised, Me respond, 10 people interviewed , Me get job, Happy Days smile

TandB Thu 24-Mar-11 15:14:04

RonF - don't be daft. If you DNA test the entire country I defy you to find anyone without "foreign ancestry".

marmaladetwatkins Thu 24-Mar-11 15:16:41

Loving how everyone is calling him RonF now all because of Shirley's pissed-up typing skillz.

ShirleyKnot Thu 24-Mar-11 15:18:14

I'm not pissed. Hoenst.

I just did a big hysterical SNORT followed by eyes spurting at Loaf Of Balls and now pronounce that to be my favourite thing today.

TotemPole Thu 24-Mar-11 15:23:59

Despite your rightness, Vajazzhands, I am roaring at "loaf of balls"

grin I looked at the keyboard and finally realised what they meant to type. At first I thought it was just a phrase I'd never heard before. blush

Frizzbonce Thu 24-Mar-11 15:34:26

Immigration is good for our economy.

The NHS couldn't function without its migrant workforce. It is good for the elderly in care homes who are nursed by immigrant workers. It is good for taxpayers who benefit from lower costs to public services. It is good for employers in low-wage industries like fruit-picking and food packing. It is good for shoppers to whom it delivers low prices. It is good for the economy since immigration adds £6bn a year to British economic output; officials statistics show that immigration boosted our economy by £1,650 per head over the past decade. It keeps inflation and interest rates down.

Despite all the truculent rhetoric about immigrants “stealing our jobs” the unpalatable truth is that they do the low-status jobs which many Britons turn down, preferring a life of idleness on benefits. Sainsburys told a House of Lords committee on immigration recently that the strong work ethic which motivates many foreign-born workers often rubs off on the British-born staff with whom they work. Many immigrants, like those who run the night desk in our hotels, are far more talented and highly-educated than many of those who do most of the complaining.

The notion that we are being “swamped” with immigrants is bogus. It is true that 5.6m people have come into the UK since 1997. But 5.5m Britons have gone abroad, many of them to live in other parts of the EU. The idea that our housing and social services cannot cope is therefore a nonsense.

None of this suits popular mythology. Immigrants are spongers on our benefits system, it says, when in fact 97 per cent have jobs. Another myth is that immigrants are responsible for increased crime. But again, despite the glee with which the media highlights Somali muggers, Rumanian beggars and Moldovian prostitutes, a wide-ranging study from the Association of Chief Police Officers on crime levels among eastern European immigrants reveals that offending rates among Polish, Slovak, Lithuanian, Romanian and Bulgarian incomers are pretty much in line with the rest of the population. Another myth bites the dust.

And yet if you tell anyone that they are speaking about immigrants in EXACTLY the same way as Hitler spoke of the Jews in the 1930s - ie as subhumans they would be shocked and offended.

Oli!!! My exH is also 36 they must have been at school together! shock!

AbsDuCroissant Thu 24-Mar-11 15:39:00

I know someone who can trace her lineage back to the 15 Century, all the people from the same village/near surrounds in Norfolk.

I feel though, that they may have involved some horses at some point through lack of people, for variety. And possibly a cow (she looked like a horse and was a complete cow).

Anyways, I arrived as a teenage immigrant many moons ago, paid for my own education (still paying for it actually) and am now a productive, stupid amount of tax paying member of society.

But I can't wait to leave.

alemci Thu 24-Mar-11 15:41:31

I am sure many immigrants coming here have been beneficial. my grandparents were immigrants.

However I think far too many people have come here in the last few years and we haven't got the infrastructure for so many people. We are a small island.

also it depends where you live. sometimes when i go to certain towns locally it is like being in another country.

Some of them do need housing because they have children so they jump the queue which stops someone who is indigenous who may have been on the list for a long time acquiring a home.

Most people i converse with have a similar outlook on the situation so I know it is not just me.

FanjoForTheMammaries Thu 24-Mar-11 15:41:43

This thread reminds me of the woman I overheard on the bus saying how awful it was that 'illegal immigrants get so many benefits' I don't think she thought that one through.

AbsDuCroissant Thu 24-Mar-11 15:47:17

I was secretly hoping that the BNP would win the last election and send me back to the old country with £50k in my back pocket. It would have been wonderful, or just a refund of all the tax I've paid over the years. I would have been happy with that. But no, they didn't. Because they are morons

RobF Thu 24-Mar-11 16:11:07

" It is good for taxpayers who benefit from lower costs to public services. It is good for employers in low-wage industries like fruit-picking and food packing."
What about employees in low-wage industries? There's a lot more employees than there are employers!

"Despite all the truculent rhetoric about immigrants “stealing our jobs” the unpalatable truth is that they do the low-status jobs which many Britons turn down, preferring a life of idleness on benefits."
Many Britons turn the jobs down because the pay is too low and the working conditions terrible. Mass immigration has caused this. If employers had to employ British people they would be forced to pay a decent wage and offer conditions that employees found to be acceptable, or the work simply wouldn't get done.

"Sainsburys told a House of Lords committee on immigration recently that the strong work ethic which motivates many foreign-born workers often rubs off on the British-born staff with whom they work. Many immigrants, like those who run the night desk in our hotels, are far more talented and highly-educated than many of those who do most of the complaining."
20 years ago you didn't have people with degrees working for minimum wage on a hotel desk overnight. If you think it is a good thing that that is the case today, I don't know what to say. "Strong Work Ethic" is one thing, I'm sure a lot of slaves had a strong work ethic. It is not always a good thing, if it means people being happy to work for low wages.

So many of the advances that the trade union movement worked and fought for for over a century have been washed away in a few short years. It's especially disgusting that so much of the so-called "left" has been complicit in allowing this to happen.

AbsDuCroissant Thu 24-Mar-11 16:19:48

Not all immigrants (comme moi) work in low paid, low skilled jobs. There are tons and tons of immigrants who are highly skilled and provide great benefit to the UK in terms of industry.

e.g. friend who was working in Academia in Artificial Intelligence and was nearly poached by NASA. Me - I get contacted at least once a week by recruiters offering me interviews for positions, as there is a major shortage of people with my skills in my area. Controversial, I know, but if you go onto the trading floor or pretty much any department of any Investment Bank, 50% or more of the people working there are not British. It's actually quite rare to find someone working in financial services (outside of the FSA) who is British, as the individuals who are skilled enough and motivated enough are all foreign. For e.g. my DP's department has 1 English person (subtly moved on because he was useless), 1 Polish person, 1 Lebanese person, 1 French person, 1 Hungarian person, 1 Indian person. I my department of 20 people, there's only 3 people who are English born and bred (and two of those are the PAs).

last time I checked pharmacy managers didn't earn a low wage grin

ShirleyKnot Thu 24-Mar-11 16:23:02

Loaf of Balls

Saltatrix Thu 24-Mar-11 16:25:23

Research from the National Institute of Economic and Social research found that 17 percent of economic growth between 2004 and 2005 was a result of immigration.

Migrants are net contributors to the public purse and therefore subsidise services for UK born residents. Immigrants paid £41.2 billion in tax during 2003-4, according to IPPR.

Any reduction in student visas would devastate higher and further education. Students from overseas contribute at least £3.74 billion annually to UK universities and add £1 billion in GDP. Border and Immigration Minister Phil Woolas said that overseas students are worth £8.5 billion to the UK economy.

The public sector could not function without immigration: a third of doctors and dentists qualified abroad, according to Migration Watch.

47% of nurses in the UK are immigrants good luck running the NHS without that

AbsDuCroissant Thu 24-Mar-11 16:26:46

And, the Economist did a big special on immigration a couple of years ago, in terms of economic benefits:
even if low skilled, immigrants are effectively much cheaper for a country, as most arrive as young adults. This is the cheapest time, in terms of government spending. Children are expensive - lots of medical treatment required, education. Older people are expensive - lots of medical treatment
immigrants are more willing to move to areas where workers are needed (whereas the local population will have ties to a particular area - family etc. and therefore less likely to move, even if there are jobs elsewhere)
immigrants are more likely to retrain to fill skills gaps than local populations

marmaladetwatkins Thu 24-Mar-11 16:27:50

Ron you're talking shit, mate.

THIS "Many Britons turn the jobs down because the pay is too low and the working conditions terrible." got me chuckling, I must admit. I'm certain that the reason that career doleys refuse to work is because the working conditions do not meet some stringent criteria which means that they would actually have to get their pudgy little mitts dirty.

AbsDuCroissant Thu 24-Mar-11 16:28:24

And if wages are too low - it's hardly the fault of immigrants. As far as i'm aware, and this may have changed, but isn't the minimum wage set by the government?

Anyone else wondering which planet Nick Griffin RobF is on?

What Phil Woolas would that be?
The one who was kicked out of the Labour party last year for gross misconduct?

marmaladetwatkins Thu 24-Mar-11 16:30:54

I've had my suspicions about Ron since he said "the liberal left"

Classic Griffin.

AbsDuCroissant Thu 24-Mar-11 16:31:02

I love how he's trying to argue that having a strong work ethic is a bad thing.

That takes quite a level of stupidity

twatkins... it's the indigenous crap that made me wonder

BooyHoo Thu 24-Mar-11 16:32:33

"Oh don't you just love it when you start to notice that you disagree with almost everything a particular poster says on here, and you think to yourself "cor that person seems a bit of an arse but I wonder if I am being uncharitable thinking that?" - and then they go and post something which definitively proves them to be a complete and utter arse and you thus have the green light to blithely ignore every last word they post from now on."

totally agree. and i knew before even clicking on the thread that a certain poster would have one of their spectacularly ignorant posts lined up.

VajazzHands Thu 24-Mar-11 16:33:56

Loaf of balls. yes just what i meant to say.

its um a what people who are "down with the kids" say here in essex. so there

blush

constantly feeding the baby and typing one fingerdly

Vajazz... is that loaf of balls to be served with onion gravy?

marmaladetwatkins Thu 24-Mar-11 16:35:18

You and your strong work ethic. Who are you kidding? What you want is no work ethic. No work ethic will sort this country out. No work ethic and indigenous Brits who will not work for under £20 per hour in the most luxurious of surroundings.

Heh heh.

RobF Thu 24-Mar-11 16:37:00

"And if wages are too low - it's hardly the fault of immigrants. As far as i'm aware, and this may have changed, but isn't the minimum wage set by the government."

It is, but other than that, wages are set by employers. The greater the supply of workers, the lower the wages.

There are far more people working for low wages today than there ever was prior to the minimum wage being introduced. Jobs that fairly recently paid enough for a person to raise a family, get a mortgage with, now pay barely enough for a single person to get by.

Is a strong work ethic a good thing? Yes, but not when employers can take advantage of it by expecting workers to work hard in arduous jobs for only minimum wage. So many jobs pay minimum wage today.

I am no fan of the liberal-left. I don't think they give a shit about normal working-class people any more than the Tories do. At least the Tories are honest about it. I resent the Guardianistas for taking over the Labour party and leading it down the sorry path it has been headed down since John Smith died in 1994 (and to an extent, since the 1980s).

vj32 Thu 24-Mar-11 16:37:02

This is not totally relevant but anyway. According to the BNP website a while ago:
Immigration is destroying Welsh culture!

Why?
Because all the non-European (read non-white) immigration into Britain is pushing more poor indigenous English people into Wales resulting in Welsh culture being over-run and overpowered by the English.

Not sure where the Welsh are going according to that logic. Ireland maybe? The sea? I laughed so much about that one. Some of the stuff on the website is hilarious if you are in the right mood because it is just SO ridiculous. Sad that people believe it though.

VajazzHands Thu 24-Mar-11 16:38:54
capricorn76 Thu 24-Mar-11 16:38:58

'Many Britons turn the jobs down because the pay is too low and the working conditions terrible. Mass immigration has caused this'

Sorry RobF but you are talking bollocks and are big businesses favourite type of person because you will turn a blind eye to what's really making things hard for all Britain’s and fall for their divide and conquer tactics which they used to distract people like you from the truth whilst robbing you blind.

Immigrants have not caused terrible working conditions and low wages. Many large companies are still posting record profits and have been every year for the last decade yet the average worker has not seen record pay increases and has actually seen their wages drop when you factor in inflation. The largest theft in history when a massive transference of wealth from the poor to the rich in the way of banking bailouts happened and there are people who won't say a thing about this but who will instead blame the 'Paki' next door because their local library is being closed down.

Workers’ rights are being stripped away, just the other day the government said they would end flexible working etc. People like Sir Philip Green get to have a say what will be cut but don't pay taxes. But let's ignore that and blame the Nigerian cleaner who gets to clean his office at 5am.

People are being laid off due to advances in technology meaning there is no need for them. There are also many companies exploiting their workers. I just heard on the news that oil/energy companies are threatening to make thousands of people redundant because Osbourne’s going to pass the 1p off fuel duty he announced yesterday on to them. They have been announcing record profits for years and get tax deductions but won’t swallow a penny a gallon and keep their staff? Immigrants did not cause this.

We keep being told there's no money so services are being cut yet all of a sudden we can find money to go to war against Libya. How much do you think the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are costing us? Immigrants are not responsible for the mess we're in but as long as there are useful idiots like you around, the people who have genuinely made things hard for everybody, regardless of their country of origin, will get away with it.

It's not immigrants making your life harder, its rich 'indigenous' business owners and the government also mainly rich and 'indigenous'.

marmaladetwatkins Thu 24-Mar-11 16:40:27

So you don't like the liberal-left OR the Tories.

I guess that leave no doubt as to where YOU sit, does it, Ron?

BTW, this suit does nothing for your figure.

RoyalWelsh Thu 24-Mar-11 16:41:45

A banker, a Daily Mail reader and a benefit claimant are sitting at a table sharing 12 biscuits. The banker takes 11 and says to the Daily Mail reader: "Watch out for the benefit claimant, he wants your biscuit"

Just popping by to say that I LOVE this :D

<skips off merrily, but not before throwing daisies at everyone because it is sunnyyyyyyy>

Rosmarin Thu 24-Mar-11 16:44:06

Everyone is born equal, right? So why do people (like OP's mum) complain about the "foreigners" (potentially fleeing horrendous situations at home) getting benefits when there are plenty of British citizens doing the same? Oh dear!

Surely we'd expect a bit of compassion were we to flee our native countries for another place.

RobF Thu 24-Mar-11 16:45:10

"Immigrants have not caused terrible working conditions and low wages. Many large companies are still posting record profits and have been every year for the last decade yet the average worker has not seen record pay increases and has actually seen their wages drop when you factor in inflation. The largest theft in history when a massive transference of wealth from the poor to the rich in the way of banking bailouts happened and there are people who won't say a thing about this but who will instead blame the 'Paki' next door because their local library is being closed down."

I have explicitly stated that I do not blame immigrants and I would do the same in their position, so the racist accusations are ridiculous.

Large companies are able to make massive profits largely because they are able to pay lower wages due to mass immigration. Or do you think the likes of the CBI are constantly pushing for more immigration out of the goodness of their hearts, because they believe in a multicultural, vibrant community etc etc?

We are now at the point where many workers wages are so low that they have to be topped up with benefits. Explain to me how that is a good thing?

Who bailed out the banks btw? The nasty Tories? No, I think you will find it was those so-called defenders of the working-class, Labour.

My name is Rob, not Ron btw.

AbsDuCroissant Thu 24-Mar-11 16:46:14

Yeah you did: "Many Britons turn the jobs down because the pay is too low and the working conditions terrible. Mass immigration has caused this."

marmaladetwatkins Thu 24-Mar-11 16:46:50

Sorry Ron, you're still chatting arse.

RobF Thu 24-Mar-11 16:53:09

"Yeah you did: "Many Britons turn the jobs down because the pay is too low and the working conditions terrible. Mass immigration has caused this.""

But I have been quite clear that I lay the blame on politicians that have supported mass immigration, not on immigrants themselves.

I'd be quite happy to argue with anyone that wants to make valid points against anything I have said. How has immigration made YOUR life better? Do you think that your experience is typical of the majority of working-class Britons? Do you think that working-class Britons matter, or should the country be run for the benefit of the monied elite?

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

marmaladetwatkins Thu 24-Mar-11 16:54:47

Yeah well my life hasn't been made any WORSE for immigration, I know that much. It's the white trailer-trash around here that make my life worse. I wish that they could be deported to Planet Twat.

AbsDuCroissant Thu 24-Mar-11 16:57:37

Rob, numerous people above have given examples of how immigrants have improved the lives of average Britons - e.g. anyone who's received treatment from one of the 47% of nurses who are immigrants. Or the individuals who have received prescriptions from Baroque's family members. Or, personal example - the children with special needs who my mother has taught to read/do maths etc.

But I'm going to stop, because I can guarantee you're going to ignore pretty much anything anyone says to prove you wrong

RobF Thu 24-Mar-11 16:57:54

"Yeah well my life hasn't been made any WORSE for immigration, I know that much. It's the white trailer-trash around here that make my life worse. I wish that they could be deported to Planet Twat."

What job do you do? What job do others in your family do? Do you have children? Where will they live when they leave home? What jobs will they do?

It's very easy for people to lie to themselves about mass immigration because they imagine that they and their family are all smart, go-getting people that can easily compete with the best people in the whole of the EU. But this is simply not the case for the vast majority of people in Britain, or any other country. The EU being an open market for labour is great for those at the very top of their profession, top footballers and the like. But for more humble normal people with only generic skills, it is a very negative thing.

RobF Thu 24-Mar-11 16:59:41

"Rob, numerous people above have given examples of how immigrants have improved the lives of average Britons - e.g. anyone who's received treatment from one of the 47% of nurses who are immigrants. Or the individuals who have received prescriptions from Baroque's family members. Or, personal example - the children with special needs who my mother has taught to read/do maths etc.

But I'm going to stop, because I can guarantee you're going to ignore pretty much anything anyone says to prove you wrong"

I'm not opposed to limited immigration of skilled people, but this has gone on for years, long before the mass immigration of the last decade has gone on. What I object to is the kind of mass immigration that now sees whole industries dominated by immigrant workers.

sprogger Thu 24-Mar-11 16:59:46

Immigration has made made my husband's life MUCH better, Ron. grin

capricorn76 Thu 24-Mar-11 17:00:10

@Rob. It doesn't matter to me which party bailed them out because Tory, Liberal and Labour are all the same to me (frontmen for big business) anyway so don't try and make out that I'm some lefty Labout supporter.

The CBI are pushing for more immigration because the population is imbalanced and we are soon to be in a situation where there are more retirees than workers. The 'indiginous' population is not producing enough babies to be able to support them and maintain growth so they want more immigration. It isn't a plot to take away workers rights.

Wages are so low that benefits are used to top them off because the companies can get away with it and enough people don't make a noise about it. People will see on BBC News that their employee has made an increase in profit but will accept their employer saying that they can't afford to give them a pay increase for the 5th year in a row. The average Brit is passive and allows this to happen, it's not because the Poles are here. If Tesco reduced working conditions for all of their staff, most Britains would still shop there anyway instead of taking their custom elsewhere so the companies are not punished for their behaviour and can get away with all kinds of crap and would still do so even if all the Poles went home tomorrow.

It doesn't matter that you don't blame immigrants directly, you still see them as the cause of the problems of this county and they are not.

RobF Thu 24-Mar-11 17:00:52

"Immigration has made made my husband's life MUCH better, Ron. "
How so?

Do you think your story is typical or an anomaly?

marmaladetwatkins Thu 24-Mar-11 17:03:09

"What job do you do? What job do others in your family do? Do you have children? Where will they live when they leave home? What jobs will they do?"

I now work part-time in a huge department store, not that that has much to do with it. Before I had children, I worked in publishing. DH is a design analysist for a car manufacturer. I assume my child will live in a house made of bricks when he leaves home. I don't see your point.

My job is unskilled (the one I do now) There are over 500 employees in my workplace. None are immigrants. I do not see your point.

capricorn76 Thu 24-Mar-11 17:03:33

@RobF can you give us an example of how immigration has made your life worse.

RobF Thu 24-Mar-11 17:04:07

"The average Brit is passive and allows this to happen"
You're right, and that is why we have mass immigration. As long as people can buy cheap strawberries from Tesco, they don't really care about their fellow countrymen being well and truly fucked over by the government and employers.

"The CBI are pushing for more immigration because the population is imbalanced and we are soon to be in a situation where there are more retirees than workers. The 'indiginous' population is not producing enough babies to be able to support them and maintain growth so they want more immigration. It isn't a plot to take away workers rights."
The CBI doesn't give a shit about there being enough workers to support retirees. Why would they?

Immigrants retire btw. What will the government do when that happens? Open the UK to unlimited immigration from Africa, and Asia? Sooner or later we have to say "no more" unless we want a Soylent Green scenario.

I don't do any job, I live in a high unemployment area, currently on benefits, most work is shift work that includes nights - out of the question with no overnight childcare available, it's going to be hard to find a job - that's got fuck all to do with immigrants,

RobF Thu 24-Mar-11 17:09:56

"I don't do any job, I live in a high unemployment area, currently on benefits, most work is shift work that includes nights - out of the question with no overnight childcare available, it's going to be hard to find a job - that's got fuck all to do with immigrants"
Are there jobs in the area currently being done by immigrants?

sprogger Thu 24-Mar-11 17:11:54

I am roaring with laughter at Ron's litmus test - if there is a job in ANY area being done by someone foreign-born, he's going to think he's scored some sort of point. Magic, I tell you.

capricorn76 Thu 24-Mar-11 17:15:59

'Open the UK to unlimited immigration from Africa, and Asia'

So it is about race then afterall? You don't want lots of brown people here.

I'm mixed race and my DH is a white immigrant - Australian, but I'm probably more of an issue for you despite being born here.

By the way if no more immigrants are allowed here I'm guessing the rest of the world would retaliate and stop Brits from moving to their countries.

Also the country is not over-populated, the population is inbalanced as most of it is private estates and nearly everyone is crammed into the cities particularly in the South East.

yes - but they're not jobs that I could (or would want) to do, I can't work 50+ hours a week, I can't risk taking on seasonal or temporary work, I can't do nights or weekends. There are of course immigrants working - as mentioned above most of the GP's at my doctors surgery are immigrants, and the people that run the local corner shop (they employ 2 british born and bred employees), exH is working as an asbestos surveyor confused I also know immigrants who have recently lost their jobs through redundancy. When I was working in acare home a few years ago some of my colleagues were immigrants, my SIL that runs the care agency employs immigrants (she has offered me jobs - unfortunately all hours I have no childcare for).

For the jobs wehre hours are between 7am and 7pm I will have just as much a chance of getting them as any immigrants also applying.

capricorn76 Thu 24-Mar-11 17:18:06

@RobF so if Baroquearoundtheclock came back and said that there is an Indian doctor in her area are you going to say that he stole her job?

~Christ could you imagine the chaos if the 5.5 million+ British expats came back to the UK and had to find work shock!

yes capricorn - my Philippine GP stole my job - of course he did, I mean I'm fully qualified in putting plasters on grazed knees..............

Yellowstone Thu 24-Mar-11 17:20:11

Haven't read through the thread yet and I'm being Polish specific but since lots of people seem to have a thing about Poles.... The British behaved miserably towards the Polish community in Britain at the end of the war, dishonourably, inadequately and parsimoniously according to the House of Lords (HL Debate 27 Oct 1966). Perhaps it's time to give a bit back, not that I actually buy this idea that most Poles are coming here purely to claim benefits - seems to me that most work bloody hard. There was an outcry amongst Telegraph readers recently when Jamie Oliver said young Poles worked way harder than the average British kid. One member of the House in the debate in 1966 said that 'On sober analysis I believe that the average Polish soldier did more for Britain during the war than the average British soldier' and that the Poles 'helped to forge the victory and assure our freedom, if not their own'. Pretty disgraceful not to remember that really but it seems to be being conveniently forgotten by those who object to Polish nationals coming here.

southeastastra Thu 24-Mar-11 17:23:23

don't really have much of an opinion other than we do need to build more schools to accomodate such high immigration. watching my son's lovely garden area being bulldozed to make extra classrooms is a bit depressing.

we aren't allowed to build on the acres of greenbelt yet allow our children to be squashed together in massive schools with no outdoor areas

RobF Thu 24-Mar-11 17:23:33

"'Open the UK to unlimited immigration from Africa, and Asia'

So it is about race then afterall? You don't want lots of brown people here.

I'm mixed race and my DH is a white immigrant - Australian, but I'm probably more of an issue for you despite being born here.

By the way if no more immigrants are allowed here I'm guessing the rest of the world would retaliate and stop Brits from moving to their countries.

Also the country is not over-populated, the population is inbalanced as most of it is private estates and nearly everyone is crammed into the cities particularly in the South East."

The country is over-populated, we are the most densely populated large country in Europe. England would be the most densely populated country in Europe if it was country in it's own right. (not counting city-states). The southeast connurbation is ridiculously overcrowded, providing no quality of life for anyone but the most privileged.

I'm opposed to mass immigration of any race. Don't throw the "racist" argument about because it holds no water with me. I'm completely in favour of a small number of highly skilled immigrants being allowed to come to Britain to work.

If the rest of the world wants to stop Brits going to their country, fair enough. I can't see why they would. Skilled Brits have been working around the world for decades, long before we had unfettered immigration here.

RobF Thu 24-Mar-11 17:26:40

"@RobF so if Baroquearoundtheclock came back and said that there is an Indian doctor in her area are you going to say that he stole her job?"
Is Baroque a qualified doctor?

The problem is mainly that immigrants take the jobs that unskilled Brits used to be able to do if they weren't bright enough to become professionals. Now we have a recession, many of the jobs that people laid off from skilled professions used to be able to do for a while simply aren't available anymore, because immigrants will work harder for less money and be less likely to stand up for their rights and working conditions than British people raised in the country where the trade union movement began.

capricorn76 Thu 24-Mar-11 17:27:03

@Yellowstone I agree although it wasn't just Poles, every country within the Commonwealth supported and fought for Britain during both World Wars but that often gets forgotten about by those with an axe to grind.

Ripeberry Thu 24-Mar-11 17:27:56

What do want to happen? These people want to come to the UK and we can't stop them. If we don't pay them, then they will be all over the streets and living on roundabouts!
It's not fair to people who have lived here all their lives but that is life and just be glad that you've been able to enjoy free healthcare and have food.

mathanxiety Thu 24-Mar-11 17:31:14

Not to mention the sordid shenanigans that resulted in Poland being handed over to the Eastern Bloc after WW2...

I knew a lot of Poles in the US; none of them were work-shy, and a relative who was in the Irish merchant marine preferred Poles above any other crew.

sprogger Thu 24-Mar-11 17:35:27

Ron, do you realise that there are jobs between "unskilled" and "professional?"

I am starting to question your working class credentials.

mathanxiety Thu 24-Mar-11 17:40:07

The accusation of taking jobs is crazy. The jobs you find young, unattached immigrants doing are jobs that people with children can't do because of benighted childcare policies. There have always been unattached immigrants doing the night jobs and the dirty jobs (Irish for a long, long time) in the UK despite unions. The economy has always hummed along round the clock, and there have always been people at the bottom of the pile. Government policies that allow employers to abuse immigrants need examining, for everyone's sake.

marmaladetwatkins Thu 24-Mar-11 17:40:58

That's exactly what I was thinking, sprogger...

Sprogger: why do you keep calling Rob Ron?
Are you being deliberately ignorant /rude or can't you read properly?

RobF Thu 24-Mar-11 17:48:08

"Ron, do you realise that there are jobs between "unskilled" and "professional?"

I am starting to question your working class credentials."
I do realise this, as I fall into the semi-skilled category as a locksmith.

marmaladetwatkins Thu 24-Mar-11 17:54:55

carmina, seriously, why don't you just eff the eff off? All you've done is post snidey remarks that no-one really gives a glittery shit about.

Ron, do you have any evidence, and I mean hard statistics not provided my the BNP/NF that immigrants are stealing all the jobs? Not anecdotal evidence, HARD facts.

capricorn76 Thu 24-Mar-11 18:01:23

Why does Carmina keep popping up in threads to tell people off for complaining about family members and correcting the spelling of names? Seriously weird.

mathanxiety Thu 24-Mar-11 18:06:15

Carmina, take a look at your qwerty keyboard.

RobF Thu 24-Mar-11 18:19:35

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7069779.stm

52% of new jobs created under Labour went to migrants.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/5673736/New-private-sector-jobs-taken-by-foreign-workers-research-suggests.html

85% of new jobs created by the private sector have gone to non British workers.

marmaladetwatkins Thu 24-Mar-11 18:22:30

Research SUGGESTS, Ron.

Four years and two years out of date RobF, when the UK was a very different place - economic boom time. And frankly, if they're better employees with better credentials, why shouldn't employers recruit them instead? You're arguing for closed borders in a scary BNP way. I don't suppose you're here with an agenda are you? I wonder if you've posted on any other threads ... hmm

diabolo Thu 24-Mar-11 18:25:05

Ripeberry - there was a man who lived on a roundabout outside the local Tesco in my town. He lived there in a tent for nearly a year. He was was white and British though.... confused

Not a very helpful contribution. Sorry

RobF Thu 24-Mar-11 18:32:07

"Four years and two years out of date RobF, when the UK was a very different place - economic boom time."
The second link is from this year.

"And frankly, if they're better employees with better credentials, why shouldn't employers recruit them instead?"
Employers shouldn't have the chance to. It is bad for Britain as a whole for British people to be left on the shelf while employers rake in the profits by being able to employ immigrants at low rates of pay. People have to pay more in taxes to boost the wages to liveable levels AND provide benefits for the people without jobs.

"You're arguing for closed borders in a scary BNP way. I don't suppose you're here with an agenda are you? I wonder if you've posted on any other threads ..."
I am here with an agenda of wanting Britain to be run for the good of people that live in Britain. If that is a "scary BNP agenda" so be it. I don't think it is.

I have posted on some other threads.

These people do live in Britain though I clicked on the link and it said 2009 at the top of the article.

And sorry, I have realised that you're not on MN solely to peddle your Britain for the British crap.

How do those of you who think people should 'go back home' feel about people who are working? About the (probably) Asian family who run your local late night shop? Or Polish builders? Do you have a policy of only employing/using British run establishments? How does that work for you?

LDNmummy Thu 24-Mar-11 18:56:32

*"And if wages are too low - it's hardly the fault of immigrants. As far as i'm aware, and this may have changed, but isn't the minimum wage set by the government."

It is, but other than that, wages are set by employers. The greater the supply of workers, the lower the wages.

There are far more people working for low wages today than there ever was prior to the minimum wage being introduced. Jobs that fairly recently paid enough for a person to raise a family, get a mortgage with, now pay barely enough for a single person to get by.

Is a strong work ethic a good thing? Yes, but not when employers can take advantage of it by expecting workers to work hard in arduous jobs for only minimum wage. So many jobs pay minimum wage today.

I am no fan of the liberal-left. I don't think they give a shit about normal working-class people any more than the Tories do. At least the Tories are honest about it. I resent the Guardianistas for taking over the Labour party and leading it down the sorry path it has been headed down since John Smith died in 1994 (and to an extent, since the 1980s).*

Rob I think you should be more upset at the right wing capitalist state, not the immigrants.

blighter Thu 24-Mar-11 18:58:00

it's going on all the time. usual left gang on here shouting the loudest defending against saying it isn't but it is, i see it on a daily basis, only this morning, work related there are hundereds of eu and non eu families mooching around my place of work. how do they live? and where? they have no money but are living here. if i went to ie italy and ran out of money i would go home, i certainly wouldn't expect a house over my head to be given. i have a friend who rents out his house, he has just taken in an extended roma roumanian family rent being paid for in full by government. he had a friend help him with their paper work as they couldn't fill it in due to lack of english, they are already set up for other benefits, all signed off on paperwork, their family member sorted it out before they had even come in the country. so who says it ain't going on? absolute rubbish, an ideal scenario is that people come here to work and leave when/if their work dries up, not to settle in free accommodation indefinately when so many people homeless here already

RobF Thu 24-Mar-11 19:00:11

"Rob I think you should be more upset at the right wing capitalist state, not the immigrants."
I keep saying that I don't blame the immigrants, but the people in favour of mass immigration. Which includes the right (the CBI etc) as well as the so-called "left" (Labour).

Can someone explain to me how mass immigration has been in line with the Labour parties stated purpose of representing the interests of working-class people in Britain? Doesn't importing more workers damage the bargaining power that working people have with their employers to demand fair wages and reasonable working conditions?

hairylights Thu 24-Mar-11 19:02:14

I find Fabbychics comments quite difficult to understand.

If people are in genuine need and are fleeing persecution etc, then of course we should help them.

The largest population of illegal immigrants in Britain are those from Australia and New Zealand who have outlived their visas.

LDNmummy Thu 24-Mar-11 19:02:51

It works both ways BTW, all the 'ggod' jobs in my country outside of politics belong to foreign workers. Jobs in engineering, oil, gold and other jobs such as these are taken by foreign workers, including many brits. This has been going on for generations, and it is only now that, very painfully slowly, that is starting to change with my generation.

Even my grandfather was a Scotsman who came to my country as an engineer building railways and roads. He like many of his peers 'stole the local wimmin' including my grandmother, knocked her up then dissapeared when my mum was two and he couldn't take his mixed race baby back to his home country with him.

So...

LDNmummy Thu 24-Mar-11 19:06:19

And there are lots of people from my country who have heritage such as mine because of similar circumstances. There are quite a few Johnson's for instance in my region of my West African country, and other British or European names. My mum knows the more common one's, I will have to ask her about it again. My mum also has a Scottish name.

LDNmummy - don't you go pointing out how the British have been raping and pillaging other countries for centuries. Far too sensible

LDNmummy Thu 24-Mar-11 19:08:09

grin far too sensible indeed!

goodness we can' have sensible shock this is a pity party...........remember???????

RunAwayWife Thu 24-Mar-11 19:20:29

The benefits system is broken and does get abused weather it is by Jonny English of Jonny foreigner it should not be allowed to happen.

mathanxiety Thu 24-Mar-11 19:29:31
marmaladetwatkins Thu 24-Mar-11 19:39:03

Hundreds, blighter? Hundreds of families? Really? Unless you work in an airport or a detention centre for immigrants then I think you are talking from your bottom.

marmaladetwatkins Thu 24-Mar-11 19:41:04

And anecdotal evidence ain't worth shit. I could come on here and say "last night I shit a gold bullion into the lav, so who says it can't happen?"

LDNmummy Thu 24-Mar-11 19:45:44

Ah yes, my grandmother on one side was also a Roma gypsy, she ended up in the Middle East most likely fleeing Hitler and his ethnic cleansing programme.

I really am making this a pitty party now, someone pour me a glass of wine

Can we talk some more about the Muslamic's please grin

Portofino Thu 24-Mar-11 19:53:38

There was a family of Roma Gypsies living in the Gare du Nord in Brussels this winter. They don't give people houses here just because there are kids involved. Fortunately a charity offered them accommodation.

RobF Thu 24-Mar-11 19:56:50

"LDNmummy - don't you go pointing out how the British have been raping and pillaging other countries for centuries. Far too sensible"

The British have also brought a lot of good to the world. The good outweighs the bad IMO. Countries like India and China are on the verge of world superpowers thanks to the British influence. Not to mention the United States and Canada.

Which country was it that outlawed slavery and ensured that other countries abolished it too? Oh yes, it was the British.

Oh and one more thing, the people that reaped the rewards of the British empire are the same ones who benefit from mass immigration today - the rich. The people that suffer from mass immigration are the ones who put in most of the leg-work to establish the British empire - the poor.

Yet we have plenty of poor people begging their oppressors to oppress them some more.

blighter Thu 24-Mar-11 19:57:51

i live in the south east, what i do for a living is neither here nor there and whether you think i am exagerating? i don't give a shit. i am telling it like it is. this morning where i work there are hundreds literally of economical migrants (asylum seekers is different as fleeing a country for safety) are hanging out instead of working as they do not have jobs but are living in the local council flats. this isn't an opinion, i know this for fact as i work with all the old locals who live with this and are the working class ones who have suffered re schooling, medical care, housing. the liberal left who dominate this site shout racist/idiot to anyone who has an opinion that is not the same as theirs. like ir or not alot of people who used to lean to the left are not so much now as at the end of the day, there are far too many people who have come here at a time when unemployment is rife. social cohesion ain't good. alot of english people, including some immigrants i know who have been here for a long long time, aren't happy. this was obviously going to happen. i observe serious over crowding and lack of understanding. ignoring the situation by thinking all is rosey in the garden is going to make it worse and worse.

LDNmummy Thu 24-Mar-11 20:00:50

"The British have also brought a lot of good to the world. The good outweighs the bad IMO."

You are an uneducated imbocile if you really think that. I take that very personally knowing what my family have gone through due to colonialism.

The legacy of colonial England in my country is horrid.

'glittery shit'

LOL!!

This is my new favourite expression. Thanks marmaladetwatkins!!!

how do you know they don't work differing shifts to you? I was frequently to been seen out and about in town during the day when I was working 30-50 hours a week...........it just so happened I worked nights

Portofino Thu 24-Mar-11 20:04:11

I was off to a nice pre-Xmas lunch one day with a supplier at a nearby hotel. It had started snowing quite hard. I passed a young woman in a door way begging. She had a tiny baby. These people are "pimped" for want of a better word by Eastern European gangmasters. The advice is not to give them money because they don't get to keep it. I was so angry and sad and thought that NO WAY would this happen in the UK, some agency would have intervened.

I live in the heart of Europe - where they supposedly make all the rules, and yet stuff like this happens. The UK seems much more compassionate. But I pay much more tax in Belgium. Belgium, incidentally, opted out of the mass migration thing from the accendant (sp.) EU countries. The UK could have done so but didn't.

MaisyMooCow Thu 24-Mar-11 20:05:47

LDN Great post @ 19.02, people seems to overlook these things.

Also loving 'Muslamic' !

LDNmummy Thu 24-Mar-11 20:07:03

[bows graciously]

marmaladetwatkins Thu 24-Mar-11 20:12:57

Yes Ron. I bet that the few remaining North American Induans are thanking their lucky stars that we killed and maimed their forefathers because if we had not have done, America would not be a country populated mostly by burger- scronfing fuckwits.

I said mostly. There are lovely Americans I know...

catinthehat2 Thu 24-Mar-11 20:23:07

"LDNmummy Thu 24-Mar-11 20:00:50
"The British have also brought a lot of good to the world. The good outweighs the bad IMO."

You are an uneducated imbocile if you really think that. I take that very personally knowing what my family have gone through due to colonialism.

The legacy of colonial England in my country is horrid."

Ketchup for your chip ma'am?

MW; hi - just seen your post addressed to me.
I'm really not sure what I've done to offend you on this thread, as I hadn't even noticed you let alone engaged with you - the reason I mentioned the spelling of a posters name was because I've enjoyed following his posts ( one of the few people on here talking sensibly ) so I thought it only polite to spell his name right - it is only 4 letters after all -smile

And I'm not offended that you think I talk shite - In fact I'm taking it as a compliment, I really wouldn't want someone who's posts make a bag of quavers look intelligent anywhere near my radar.

MaisyMooCow Thu 24-Mar-11 20:26:42

catinthehat2 We shouldn't have to pay for the sins of our forefathers.

What's gone before has happened, it's the future we need to look too, learning from the mistakes done before.

ShirleyKnot Thu 24-Mar-11 20:27:27

Oh this shit just got serious.

How dare colonials have a chip on their shoulder eh? When are we supposed to forget the past? Should we just gloss over the holocaust? Pretend genocide didn't happen in what used to be Yugoslavia? Or rapes and genocide in Rwanda? What's the statute of limitations on that kind of thing catinthehat2?

CheerfulYank Thu 24-Mar-11 20:39:13

<removes burger from mouth in order to stick tongue out at marmalade >

catinthehat2 Thu 24-Mar-11 20:46:46

"ChristinedePizan Thu 24-Mar-11 19:06:52
LDNmummy - don't you go pointing out how the British have been raping and pillaging other countries for centuries. Far too sensible"

and some more ketchup for LDNmummy's frendywendy's chippywippy?

grin

marmaladetwatkins Thu 24-Mar-11 21:09:59

carmina you knuckledragging mouthbreather. I am the OP and you pissed me off ages ago. Fancy berating someone else for not reading properly, then not reading properly yourself.

Good to see that your beef with me was because you share the same Jim Davidson views as my dear mother and not because I was "attacking" her on the interwebs.

Oh, and your riposte about the bag if Quavers was truly cringeworthy. Please do not attempt to be witty again as you are not cut out for it

RobF Thu 24-Mar-11 21:11:12

""The British have also brought a lot of good to the world. The good outweighs the bad IMO."

You are an uneducated imbocile if you really think that. I take that very personally knowing what my family have gone through due to colonialism.

The legacy of colonial England in my country is horrid."
Where is your country?

marmaladetwatkins Thu 24-Mar-11 21:11:19

Ha ha, Cheerful! I did think of you when writing that because I think you are a lovely American blush

You're not that bright are you catinthehat?

marmaladetwatkins Thu 24-Mar-11 21:14:59

Well spotted, Christine wink

LDNmummy Thu 24-Mar-11 21:15:08

I am West African Rob

And Cat, when the children in your family suffer till the present day because of what has happened to your people before, then you will realize how callous your comment is.

Frankly you arent even worth the effort of addressing fully over your comment.

MrsBananaGrabber Thu 24-Mar-11 21:16:45

Love the people who are saying there is no such thing as an indigenous Brit, what self loathing the British have. I'm pretty sure if you can trace your ancestors back for hundreds of years you can call yourself a Brit. I live in Canada, try and tell a 5th gerneration Canadian that there is no such thing, ha.

I also love love love the way it's OK to slag off British people as workshy ect, can you imagine saying that about any other group, crazy.

I live in Toronto, 50% of people in the city are not Canadian born, it's a wonderful city, vibrant, diverse, inclusive. Immigration when done well is a positive thing.

MikeOxstiff Thu 24-Mar-11 21:17:23

I know what you mean about not forgeting the sins from the past

The fucking Romans , French, Vikings etc and who can forgive the muslims from north western Africa for kidnapping thousands of English and irish and selling them into slavery long before europeans started the slave trade

marmaladetwatkins Thu 24-Mar-11 21:19:40

People are saying there is no such thing as an indigenous Brit because there is no such thing as an indigenous Brit! You need to check the dictionary definition of indigenous if you think that there is.

MrsBananaGrabber Thu 24-Mar-11 21:28:39

And i'm not apologising to anyone for anything from the past. I'm from a long line of piss poor, working class Mancunians, you think my ancestors had any say in anything political, I don't think so.

ShirleyKnot Thu 24-Mar-11 21:31:31

I got bored of this hours ago to be honest and went and got all obsessed with face cheesecakes. anyway.

I feel the need to address a point made about the indigenous British. and I'm going to be serious for a moment here, so grab your hats.

Of course there is an "indigenous" British race. I mean, the arguments about whether that actually means the Celts (the Welsh, Scottish and Irish) or some other amazing group of humans is kind of irrelevant really.

I guess that the indigenous population of the UK has always been very fluid. We are only a hop, skip and a jump away from the European continent, so even if we forget the first several thousand years of our "civilisation" (Romans, Vikings, Normans etc) we could in theory talk about the last 100 years for the purpose of racism xenophobia fairness.

Oh, but hang on, then we might have to factor in the massive push in the 1950's for immigration - you know? when we invited people from the "commonwealth" to come and do the jobs no one else wanted to do. So are the descendent of these peoples indigenous? Or not?

And how many generations do we go back?

And also. The fact that all of this has to be brought up is in the face of shit like "the indigenous population is harmed by immigration bollocks" is just, frankly, tiring, boring and well shit.

LDNmummy Thu 24-Mar-11 21:35:07

Oh gosh, wish this hadn't turned into a discussion on who is to blame for what, can we just go back to the OP, get tired of discussions like this.

BulletWithAName Thu 24-Mar-11 21:36:57

"What's gone before has happened, it's the future we need to look too, learning from the mistakes done before."

Yes, exactly! Should my mum have to apologise to him every time he walks into the room because her ancestors enslaved his ancestors 400 years ago?

MW - thanks for the advice!

marmaladetwatkins Thu 24-Mar-11 21:41:04

Let's play a game. Following on from my ludicrous immigrant claims post earlier today, let us see who can come up with the most outrageous.

My Wembley for Islam will take some beating.

Oh and Shirls. Do one.

ShirleyKnot Thu 24-Mar-11 21:43:24

Do one? as in do an outrageous immigrant claim or "do one" as in fuck off?

I never know with you.

marmaladetwatkins Thu 24-Mar-11 21:45:37

Do both. Just to be on the safe side. You gurning chimp.

I am Welsh by blood but I've never lived there. I was raised outside of the UK and didn't move here until I went to University. My mum apparently has a blood group that is most common in North Africa. My son's dad is Irish. My sister's daughter is half-Belgian.

I don't know what British really means but I don't really identify with it. Apparently if I were a naturalised Canadian I would hmm

ShirleyKnot Thu 24-Mar-11 21:55:27

You are truly the Ernie Wise to my Eric Morecombe Marmalade, you fucking idiot.

OK, so outrageous immigrant claim:

I heard that the government were implementing a clause in the law that means that Polish builders can build a house made out of straw. The fire regs and things aren't relevant because our regulations contravene Human Rights law and so if a Polish builder comes to your house it literally means that they can build your extension out of straw and if it burns down the firemen who attend are OBLIGED to laugh at you and do the Big Bad Wolf blowing face at you.

You read it here. That means it's true.

Now I'll do the other thing. wearing a baseball cap.

MrsBananaGrabber Thu 24-Mar-11 21:55:45

Well if you don't identify as being British then no one should eh. confused

A Canadian whos ancestors came from wherever many years ago would laugh if you told them they are not Canadian, yet British people should suck it up because they have a bit of viking blood from thousands of years ago, fuck me.

marmaladetwatkins Thu 24-Mar-11 21:57:42

For the record, indigenous means occurring naturally in an area or country. For example, you would not find an Inuit born in Scunthorpe unless their parents had emigrated there.

You might FEEL British and you might BE British by nationality but you are not indigenous unless you are sure your bloodline is not intertwined at some point with the blood of another race/nationality.

Sorry that I am having to explain this to adults on a Thursday night.

catinthehat2 Thu 24-Mar-11 21:58:05

I fell asleep after 'Welsh' un fortunately. Was it interesting or just more high pitched whining noises? Anybody?

marmaladetwatkins Thu 24-Mar-11 21:59:45

No-one would be telling them they aren't Canadian. Just that they aren't indigenous Canadian. My Italian father classes himself as British and his passport says as much but he is not an
indigenous British person. Can you not see the difference?

marmaladetwatkins Thu 24-Mar-11 22:00:50

Oh fuck off catinthehat. You offensive moron.

Heh heh good one Shirls. Come ere and giz a kiss.

MrsBananaGrabber Thu 24-Mar-11 22:03:40

Of course I can see the difference but saying there are no truly British people is wrong, how long does a people have to live somewhere to be considered indigenous. If that's the case then no country except Africa has an indigenous people.

ShirleyKnot Thu 24-Mar-11 22:05:23

Go on then BananaGrabber. <cough>

What's the limit. in your mind?

Portofino Thu 24-Mar-11 22:05:41

My dd is English, she was born in Margate of all places. To all intents and purposes though, she is Belgian. It's what she knows, who she is. Us, as her parents, well WE are English. She isn't. The older she gets, the more the balance tips. Daddy has become "Papa". She has started talking french even at home. She is entirely accepted and no comment will ever be made.

Now think of this the other way round, say a child born in Africa or Poland and raised in England......Where does this "indigenous population" come from? It is bollocks.

marmaladetwatkins Thu 24-Mar-11 22:11:32

You are misinterpreting indigenous. You can never be indigenous unless you are one hundred per cent pure of one race. This is fact.

Are you telling me now that White settlers in Australia are now indigenous Australians because they have been nationalised after decades of being there?it's ridiculous. The indigenous Australian people are the ones living like second-rate citizens in the bush. White people are no more indigenous Australians than I am an indigenous Martian.

MrsBananaGrabber Thu 24-Mar-11 22:13:03

I'm British, my DD was born in Canada, what is she? My DS's were born in the UK but all they know is Canada. Doesn't change that fact that i'm British going back for many generations.

So are Polish people indeginous to Poland, how about the people of Hawaii?? Why is it just us Brits that can't have an indigenous people. I'm not saying that people who go to the UK and become citizens aren't British btw, it's just the question of indiginousness (made up word alert) that bugs me.

I don't know what the limit is. I don't consider myself Welsh although I have no English blood in me. Am I English because I was born here and have lived here as an adult? My DS may well consider himself English although he isn't. Switch Welsh and Irish for Polish and Belgian and he could still consider himself English because it's the only country he's ever known. There is a fluidity about people's national identity and it isn't to do with where your antecedents come from as far as I can see.

ShirleyKnot Thu 24-Mar-11 22:15:43

Not entirely sure why anyone is rising to catinthehat? notorious piss taker extraordinaire (and actual poster who makes me piss. hmm, do I need to read the whole thread again? GOD how tedious)

Dunno Shirley. I do know I'm going to take my British/American/Belgian self to bed though

marmaladetwatkins Thu 24-Mar-11 22:17:58

It's not just us Brits that can't have an indigenous people! Don't be so defensive! The Spanish are made up of Moorish/Berber/Roman ancestry, among others. There are loads of examples. There are very few indigenous peoples in the world. It's not just us Brits. We need to get over this as a country. This weird belief that we are an indigenous people being contaminated by foreigners is misguided and wrong.

marmaladetwatkins Thu 24-Mar-11 22:19:41

Shut your blowhole Shirl that catinthehat comment was meant for me so address it to ME you daft cow.

Love you.

LB29 Thu 24-Mar-11 22:20:42

The inlaws once told me that they were going to vote bnp, don't really know what your meant to say to that?

ShirleyKnot Thu 24-Mar-11 22:24:22

Duh. ACTUAL DUH. that's aimed at you "BananaGrabber"

What the actual? I'm not sure what your point is? Is it that those who emigrate retain their "Britishness" and that those who immigrate retain their "Otherness"? because no one is arguing that point.

Without being rude you emigrated. Either you want to be part of the Canadian experience or you don't and you should integrate.

Oh, wait, you want to retain your roots? God, how unreasonable of you! God.

That's what I hate people who immigrate/emigrate who want to keep their roots. it's vile.

Oh wait.

MrsBananaGrabber Thu 24-Mar-11 22:25:11

In no way did I say we are being contaminated by foreigners. I haven't lived in the UK for 5 years, I am an immigrant myself, that's not my view at all. It just seems like we have to apologise for being British, maybe it's our colonial past I don't know. My children sing the Canadian national anthem every morning at school, the Canadian flag is everywhere, national pride is scoffed at in the UK.......I think we need to be proud in an inclusive way.

MrsBananaGrabber Thu 24-Mar-11 22:27:30

ShirleyKnot. I embrace Canada in every way and where did I say people shouldn't retain their roots, don't put words in my mouth.

marmaladetwatkins Thu 24-Mar-11 22:28:06

Unfortunately, in this country national pride seems to go hand in hand with casual racism. Perhaps it needs to be reclaimed from the BNP crew?

marmaladetwatkins Thu 24-Mar-11 22:28:50

BananaGrabber, she was being sarcastic. I think.

RobF Thu 24-Mar-11 22:29:36

"It's not just us Brits that can't have an indigenous people! Don't be so defensive! The Spanish are made up of Moorish/Berber/Roman ancestry, among others. There are loads of examples. There are very few indigenous peoples in the world. It's not just us Brits. We need to get over this as a country. This weird belief that we are an indigenous people being contaminated by foreigners is misguided and wrong."

What are these few indigenous people? Why are they indegenous but British people not?

catinthehat2 Thu 24-Mar-11 22:32:07

Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

PLEASE SOMEBODY MAKE THE WHINING STOP.
And I've read the cheesecake stuff it is disgusting.

ShirleyKnot Thu 24-Mar-11 22:33:31

Good Lord.

No one has to apologise for being British FFS. I am PROUD when I go abroad. Proud that I live in a mostly tolerant country. Proud that we allow economic, moral, run of the mill migrants, proud that we provide for those who need international help, proud that I can get a broken arm sorted without a credit card, proud of most of it.

ASHAMED, deadly ashamed of the contingent of our society who believe that Britain should be for an imaginary "British"

Luckily they remain in the minority.

ShirleyKnot Thu 24-Mar-11 22:34:52

You want a face cheesecake cat. Don't lie

RobF - indigenous people are the ones who were on isolated land masses before other people invaded. Like the aboriginal people in Australia. And native americans. And probably a few south american people because it's too mountainous to travel much outside your area. But in Europe, there really is no such thing

Portofino Thu 24-Mar-11 22:35:30

Why can you not keep your roots just because you live somewhere else? I live in Belgium, but I am not Belgian. i don't even pretend to be. I make the effort to integrate on a day to day basis. I get no special treatment. If you live and work in another country then you have to do it their way...when in Rome and all that.

I think in the UK people go out of their way to be inclusive for other languages in a way you would never see in Belgium. I live in a Flemish region. There is a rule that the powers that be will only speak Flemish (Dutch). If you can't speak it, then you need to take someone with you who can. End of. It is a PITA. But then they have a good uptake for the free Dutch lessons.....

MrsBananaGrabber Thu 24-Mar-11 22:38:37

Who said you can't keep your roots, wasn't me.

marmaladetwatkins Thu 24-Mar-11 22:41:24

Christine is right. Thank you, Christine.

You can live wherever you please and keep your roots. My father's family is proof. You can integrate AND keep your roots. Check dis for some crazeeee shit.

catinthehat2 Thu 24-Mar-11 22:42:01

How do you know Ihavent got some?
I actually have a fine well balanced pair,which I keep wholly in proportion, and what.s more, I don't go on & on & on & on about their bloodlines.

I think a few of the posters on this thread could learn a thing or two from my facial cheesecakes

Portofino Thu 24-Mar-11 22:42:08

And I think (our glory days of Empire notwithstanding) that the British have a huge sense of entitlement. I have spent some enjoyable time on the recent Tripadvisor Thread. So many laughable comments about how these resorts abroad serve foreign food, and cliches about all the other European nations. Germans - sunbeds, spanish - rude, french - even more rude. It goes on.

Saltatrix Thu 24-Mar-11 22:43:39

Robf There are very few true indigenous people that exist, those that do is because they have remained in isolation from other races. I.e small groups of Native Americans, Aboriginals, inuits (more commonly known ones) then there are very small communities. Normally true indigenous people that exist now would have been on Islands or a great distance from any other interference. Britain has been invaded/pillaged by many different peoples over thousands of years that true indigenous will have been long gone now unless there is some group that's been hiding in a cave all his time genetically that would be a disaster for them. The same thing will happen with Native Americans etc, over time just that occurred in Britain long ago.

ShirleyKnot Thu 24-Mar-11 22:43:58

How do I know you haven't got some what? If the answer aint face cheesecake, I aint interested.

pervert.

MrsBananaGrabber Thu 24-Mar-11 22:46:14

After living out of the country for just over 5 years I think you are a changed person for having lived away. I can see the good and bad about home and I think we are prone to a little Englander mentality. A few years away should cure that.

marmaladetwatkins Thu 24-Mar-11 22:47:01

<Clutches on to Saltatrix and Christine>

Thankyou! I was starting to think I was going mad just then...

catinthehat2 Thu 24-Mar-11 22:47:55

Eh? I think you missed the bit where I expressed my pride in my matching facial desserts.read stuff more carefully in future please.

Right..............anyhow, blood and water. which is the most important...........and do some people have thicker blood than others...........

oh and I do hope that OliPolly comes back to the thread -That woman has GOOD taste (yes I know exH turned out to be a bit of a tosser - but he's not a totally bad egg) in her choice of educational establishments from which to chose a DH grin

We can all clutch together (will there be wine?)

God I really need to go to bed angry Stop talking, time for lights out you lot!

MaisyMooCow Thu 24-Mar-11 22:50:57

I think Britain is experiencing a 'culture shock' right now. For many years Britain was seen as 'Midsummer' white and over the past say 10 years or so we have had an influx of immigrants and asylum seekers. Many people find this hard to come to terms with and feel threatened that their 'Englishness' is going to be taken away. Some people don't cope well with change.

Portofino Thu 24-Mar-11 22:52:19

Actually this has raised an interesting question for me. If we are talking about long term immigrants to the UK, it would be entirely reasonble to expect that a) they speak/learn to speak English b) they became British Citizens and/or conform to the social mores of Britishness? Yes?

Now I am a potentially long term immigrant in Belgium. This a crazy place, with 3 languages, no government and mad drivers. No way on earth will I become Belgian. Yet I love it here!

actually the currenty trend towards immigration into this country over emigration started in the 70's

Of course before that we had the Poles, Italians and West Indians just after the war, and a whole load more that you can read about here

MrsBananaGrabber Thu 24-Mar-11 22:58:30

I love Canada, i'm not and never will love hocky, they may kick me out. My DS's correct my English in favour of American English, sneakers, garbage ,chips.......i'm stuck in the middle, it'a an immigrants curse grin

you'll see at the end of the article (a good few years old - but still relevant) that it says

"Fifty years after the start of mass immigration to the UK"

You see that fifty

immigration to support the then fledging NHS

Ah you see and there is the irony Porto. My parents are prime examples of cupcake's mum's rants but they lived in Belgium for 20 odd years, could barely speak French (they relied on their children) and spoke no Flemish, despite living in a Flemish commune for most of that time. So a wee bit hypocritical I feel!

LadyOfTheManor Thu 24-Mar-11 23:00:17

I hate to say this to you <boo, hiss> but YANBU for once.

oh and I forgot (the last link doesn't mention them) the 3000 Asian doctors working in the NHS in the 1950's.........

thunderchild Thu 24-Mar-11 23:17:43

@fabby! I'm sick and tired of that sort of line, its like my favourite one about "illegals" getting free houses, benefits and cars! I mean- let's examine the logic, if they're illegal they're hardly likeliy to make their presence known- are they?

sprogger Thu 24-Mar-11 23:19:16

Psst, MrsBananaGrabber - you seem to have missed a central plank of Canadian identity, which is the Loud & Proud acknowledgement the Canada is a nation of immigrants. Everyone is welcome to be Canadian, and it is widely agreed that the closest thing Canada has to an indigenous population is the First Nations. (Clue's in the name.)

I present this ad as evidence, which I can't imagine ever being made in the UK:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzmHwF2G4Vk&feature=related

somewhat off topic - but last year exH totally unintentioally had 2 lodgers staying with him who both turned out to be illegal immigrants shock! They worked, paid their rent on time, and seemed perfectly "normal" people (they actually helped moving my stuff when I moved out - so I had them in my home for a short while as well and bought them beer and pizza as a thank you!).

They (police) picked one of the two blokes up at a random stop and search they had to crack down on drugs in town - and found all wasn't as it should have been. First thing exH knew of it was a call from the police/immigration asking if he was the LL and being told that they needed to search his house and see his documentation. Thankfully exH knew exactly where all his paperwork was - in his own bedroom, and gave the officers the information they needed to find it over the phone. They checked his papers out and left his room alone but turned the rest of the house upside down.

Poor ol exH came home from work that day to find his house like a bomb had hit it, his lodgers gone - and all their stuff still in the house (and it was down to him to get rid of it all)

Want2bSupermum Thu 24-Mar-11 23:29:20

There are many many immigrants who come to the UK and make huge contributions. My family are one of many who came, saw, remained and contributed. Funnily enough two generations later only one of us has remained in the UK. My sister and I have migrated to the US where we earn far more and have a better lifestyle than we ever could in the UK.

The problem is that there seems to be more immigrants who have come to the UK in recent times who have no intention of making a contribution to British society. Why these people are allowed to remain is beyond me. It does annoy me that their children born in the UK get automatic citizenship while my child, born in the US won't qualify because I was born in Canada (my father was working for the British government at the time and was posted abroad).

they don't get automatic citizenship

ThatVikRinA22 Thu 24-Mar-11 23:46:25

i get really get mad with horrible xenophobic attitudes but something shocked me last week,

i was, in the course of my job, speaking with a translator, she is from another country translating for the NHS. she told me about some very widespread fraud taking place that is so stunningly easy to affect i was in total shock. i truly had thought it was all a myth orchestrated to make people distrust certain cultures.

she said she had kept her mouth shut because she didnt feel it was her place to rumble anyone, that it wasnt her business, (until it became her business when someone threatened her)

i dont know what the answer is but there are some bloody massive loopholes that do need to be closed.

phillangie Thu 24-Mar-11 23:51:08

only read the first page - you're a complete bigotted t*** FABBYCHIC. You must be a divorced bitter little old woman. WHy dont you go and live in australia, if you love their rules so much? You may be following your ancestors my moving there you know? ha ha.

SpeedyGonzalez Fri 25-Mar-11 00:05:11

Fabbychic, I know you posted this ages ago but I have to respond. You said: "There are far too many freeloaders coming into the UK and reaping the rewards of our free for all state."

Were you referring to the "freeloaders" coming to the UK, or the "freeloaders" from the UK who, not all that long ago, emigrated en masse, took over other people's countries, bled them dry of their wealth and called it their Empire?

What goes around comes around, eh?

Yellowstone Fri 25-Mar-11 00:15:39

RobF can you answer the question? Don't the British owe a debt? I hate avoidance.

I'm half british half Polish. Also a direct descendant of the Stuart line (James 11 and all that, 8 or 9 times great grandaughter I think ) and a great niece of the boss of the Polish Resistance. If history had made me more ennobled than I currently am (don't get me wrong, I'm happy), I'd let every immigrant into Britain than wanted to come and I'd make them welcome what's more. Hybrid vigour is great, human dignity is pretty cool too. I might even be tempted to see that 'indigenous' types worked on the bins and that Poles and other similar types went straight into the City on fat bonuses which I couldn't be bothered to tax.

Oh well, keeps me from being too bored filling the dishwasher and doing Parents' Evenings etc.

Ther's some pretty grim stuff on this thread.

Tortoiseonthehalfshell Fri 25-Mar-11 00:18:17

RobF has fallen into the misapprehension that because immigrants tend to work in unskilled jobs in their first few years in a new country, they are therefore unskilled and uneducated.

Actually, it's just as likely that qualifications don't translate. Almost every taxi driver I have, here in Australia, is Pakistani, and every time we get chatting he turns out to be a qualified teacher or lawyer, who is driving cabs while he studies a bridging course to have those qualifications recognised. Often those bridging courses are two years.

The greatest number of illegal immigrants in this country by FAR are New Zealanders and the English, and usually they work unskilled jobs because their qualifications don't check out and/or they want cash-in-hand work because they're not registered. They don't receive benefits. The ones employed legitimately do pay taxes, the cash-in-handers don't. I understand that the exact reverse scenario exists in English, with Aussies and Kiwis.

Astoundingly, no-one makes assumptions about how everybody in England must be poor and unskilled on the basis of the illegal over-stayers. Funny, isn't it?

MrsBananaGrabber Fri 25-Mar-11 00:27:16

sprogger - What are you going on about my love.

My point was that Canadians are proud of being Canadian and would reject the idea that because their ancestors were not born here that they are not Canadian.

Please point out where I said that Canada doesn't welcome immigrants and that Canada isn't proud to welcome immigrants, I am myself an immigrant to Canada confused

And if you don't think that some white Canadians can't be anti immigration you are very naive.

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