to think Ed Milliband should have married his partner before having their 2nd child?

(350 Posts)
Gooftroop Tue 09-Nov-10 10:53:16

One child, fine. Maybe it was a surprise, these things happen, marriage is so yesterday, no problem. But to go on building a family without legally committing himself to his partner ... I am unimpressed. AIBU?

Vallhala Tue 09-Nov-10 10:54:00


DuelingFanjo Tue 09-Nov-10 10:54:35

YABU and you probably know it. Why is marriage in any way important? If it's important for you then do it but it's not something everyone wants to do.

winnybella Tue 09-Nov-10 10:54:44



Vallhala Tue 09-Nov-10 10:54:54

As in, yes, you are being unreasonable.

Very unreasonable, in fact.

niceday Tue 09-Nov-10 10:55:23

Why do you care?

Jaquelinehyde Tue 09-Nov-10 10:55:23


Why should someone have to be married?

As long as they are in a stable loving relationship, who cares whether they have a certificate legally confirming this.

And for all you know she has turned him down, why is the woman always made out to be the weak partner waiting to be married.

ZacharyQuack Tue 09-Nov-10 10:55:23

ha ha nice try

toddlerama Tue 09-Nov-10 10:55:25

In order to protect his children and partner should anything awful happen, my understanding is that marriage is the most watertight solution. Correct me if I'm wrong, I may well have misunderstood the law / consequences.

bunnymother Tue 09-Nov-10 10:55:43

Yes. It is none of your business what he and his partner choose to do or not do. I would query why you care about others' lifestyle choices.

2shoes Tue 09-Nov-10 10:55:48

I am old fashioned and believe in marriage before children, but I fully accept that not everyone else does

Hassled Tue 09-Nov-10 10:56:29

Yes, YABU. You haven't explained why you think this at all. What do you think marriage will give his baby that cohabitation can't give the baby?

DuelingFanjo Tue 09-Nov-10 10:56:33

they should discuss this on that Matthew Wright programme some time.

loonyrationalist Tue 09-Nov-10 10:56:41


I am dissapointed that he seems to be bowing to pressure to get married it is obviously not important to either of them; so why expect them to go through a meaningless (to them) ceremony for a piece of paper to satisfy the tabloids basically: bonkers.

Fibilou Tue 09-Nov-10 10:57:02

I would never have had a child outside marriage, marriage is hugely important to me and I cannot understand how it is considered more of a commitment than a child.

However that it my opinion. Everyone feels differently and if Ed Milliband and his partner do not want t get married then that is their business and certainly does not affect how I think of him as a politician

So yes, from another pro-marriage person, YABU

motherinferior Tue 09-Nov-10 10:57:06

She may, you know, be one of those women who don't want to get married and therefore turns down her partner's generous offers of matrimony.

We do exist, you know. I'm fending Mr Inferior off with a pointy stick, personally.

Hassled Tue 09-Nov-10 10:58:44

toddlerama - marriage is certainly the easiest way to protect the rights/welfare of each party and any children. But it's by no means the only way. I do agree that non-married couples should sort out wills and make damned sure they're both on the deeds of any property they own.

Gooftroop Tue 09-Nov-10 10:59:13

First off, I don't care THAT much. I'm not tearing my hair out in fury.

But I do think I'm allowed to care a little bit about someone setting out to be prime minister.

GypsyMoth Tue 09-Nov-10 10:59:15

Maybe they took one ook at the relationships threads here on MN and decided 'no'..........enough to put anyone off getting married reading about the crappy husbands many MN er's have!!

motherinferior Tue 09-Nov-10 10:59:48

And a child is - well, it isn't, as we so frequently see but it ideally should be, IMO - a commitment to parenting, and to working out some deal of co-parenting. Usually. That's different from marriage, which is a commitment to another adult, who may or may not be the co-parent involved.

Unrulysun Tue 09-Nov-10 11:00:00

YANBU as long as it is 1924 and you are either a. Blacking the lady's grate and toasting her muffins ready for the visiting hour or b. Working on your needlepoint while a member of the lower classes toasts your muffins and blacks your grate.

Which is it?

Eliza70 Tue 09-Nov-10 11:00:41

If a relationship is going to break down it will regardless of bring married or not. Nothing is "watertight"; married people cheat, non married people cheat, married people change and so do non married people. It's a marriage, not a magic spell against things going wrong.

Jaquelinehyde Tue 09-Nov-10 11:00:56

Why does a wanna be PM have to be married...I don't understand please explain?

sleepycat Tue 09-Nov-10 11:01:13

DH didn't want to get married. Seemed to think it was more frightening then having a baby together hmm

Fine,I said, but the DC will have my surname. I'm not having a different name to my kids.

Suddenly he thought marriage was a brilliant idea.

Why? What difference does it make? Surely having children is a much bigger commitment to a partner than marriage.

We planned to have DD1 when we were not married. No surprise about it. We knew we were committed to each other whether married or not!

We are married now, with DD2 on the way but we still would have planned DD2 whether we had managed to get married or not!

This isn't the 1940s and your views are very old fashioned!

What does marriage have to do with being a good Prime Minister?

The Prime Minister could be single or gay and it wouldn't make a difference as far as I am concerned.

Gooftroop Tue 09-Nov-10 11:01:46

TIFFANY - love it, very true.

By the way, Ed didn't bother to put his name on first child's birth certificate either.

Looks like an indecisive commitment phobic. Otherwise, I like the guy just fine.

magichomes Tue 09-Nov-10 11:01:57

YABU and I bet you already know it.

The marriage vows rarely weigh too heavily on the millions of married fathers who desert their wives and children, after all.

I'm married; it took DH years to persuade me, and it's no different to living together. I will be sad if Justine Thornton gets hitched simply due to political pressure.

Forgot to say - YES YABU!

it affects how I think of him as a politician.

Gooftroop Tue 09-Nov-10 11:03:52

Trillian, I have no problem if PM is single or gay. And as I said, I not have problem with him having a baby and not being married. But I do - very slightly - question his judgement going forward with building a family without legal commitment to his partner (it doesn't even need to be marriage).

motherinferior Tue 09-Nov-10 11:03:55

Insofar as it affects my thinking of him, I am pleased.

Jaquelinehyde Tue 09-Nov-10 11:04:26

We all know he's not on the first childs birtn certificate...Old news. This is something he is rectifying when he goes to register his new born.

Again can you explain why being married is important if he wants to be PM?

vixel Tue 09-Nov-10 11:04:27

It doesn't bother me but politically it would probably have been a good move.

motherinferior Tue 09-Nov-10 11:05:10

Oh for heavens sake. How do you know about his 'legal commitments', ffs? They've doubtless got wills and all sorts. She's quite astute, you know, she's a lawyer and everything.

earwicga Tue 09-Nov-10 11:05:34


Jaquelinehyde Tue 09-Nov-10 11:05:51

How do you know he has no legal commitment to his partner? Are you their solicitor?

And why is your disgust not aimed at his partner who I like to believe has just as much say in this decision as him.

earwicga Tue 09-Nov-10 11:07:08

'It's a marriage, not a magic spell against things going wrong.'

Bloody brilliant!

weblette Tue 09-Nov-10 11:07:14


GrimmaTheNome Tue 09-Nov-10 11:07:53


Given that Justine Thornton is a barrister, one imagines they have some idea about the legal position, so don't worry yourself. As to any other considerations - none of your business.

motherinferior Tue 09-Nov-10 11:09:00

If the conversations chez Miliband are anything like the ones in the Inferiority Complex they'll go something like:

Him: So why won't you marry me?
Her: I just can't face marrying anyone. Nothing personal or anything.
Him: But I bought you a ring and everything.
Her: Yes, darling, it's a lovely ring. All sparkly. Look, I'm wearing it. But I just can't face getting married.

My current ploy is that I'll only do it if we can have Stand by your man played. The Lyle Lovett cover.

seeker Tue 09-Nov-10 11:09:38

Well, speaking as a marriage-free person with two children, I think you are being very unreasonable.

Gooftroop Tue 09-Nov-10 11:09:45

Jaquelinehyde - I'm NOT disgusted. Far from it. Just think it looks a bit .... wishy washy. Sorry, but I do. Someone in his position ....

I still like the guy ok. I don't think he should be arrested or anything. Just looks a bit ... wet. Sorry.

motherinferior Tue 09-Nov-10 11:11:25

What, for taking up with a strong-minded bird who probably spent her teens thinking about a law career rather than wedding dresses?

Unrulysun Tue 09-Nov-10 11:11:39

Love the idea that dc 1 must have been a mistake 'surprise' btw. Great judgy pants. I can see you hitching up your vast Les-Dawson-dressed-as-a-woman bosom as you type it.

passthechocs Tue 09-Nov-10 11:11:59

I agree - YABVU. It is their business and anyway, about 50% of children are now born 'out of wedlock' shock wink

But would say that although it is their choice and I don't think anyone should get married if they don't want to (I had strong objections to the whole marriage thing that had nothing to do with how I feel about dh), the way the law works in this country it is likely that the children would be disadvantaged if the couple split or one dies. There are BIG financial implications for unmarried couples and their children. But still, given Ed Milibands job would hope he is aware of these and has planned for them!

motherinferior Tue 09-Nov-10 11:12:06

Would he impress you more if he clubbed her over the head and marched her to the nearest registry office to Make Her His?

Tortoiseonthehalfshell Tue 09-Nov-10 11:12:12

OP, has it occurred to you that he may have proposed and his very intelligent, aware, legally savvy barrister partner may have declined?

Hammy02 Tue 09-Nov-10 11:12:18

I agree with the OP. It may be old-fashioned but so what? Marriage shows commitment. If you can't spend £100 and an hour in a registry office to show that you are commited, then maybe question why you are so against marriage?

jumpingjackhash Tue 09-Nov-10 11:12:24

Oops, must have clicked on '1950' by mistake

Gissabreak Tue 09-Nov-10 11:14:49

Message withdrawn

MaMoTTaT Tue 09-Nov-10 11:14:54

another pro-marriage person here who think you're utterly bonkers

Gooftroop Tue 09-Nov-10 11:15:07

motherinferior - I'm not talking about the partner because she's not trying to be prime minister - she's not a public figure and I don't want to don my judgy pants about her. (But since you mentioned it, yep, I think she's wishy washy too for having a second child and not commiting to partner.)

DiscoDaisy Tue 09-Nov-10 11:17:47

My partner and I have 5 children and have been in a relationship for 16 years. I didn't realise that because we are not married then for the past 16 years we haven't been committed to each other.

motherinferior Tue 09-Nov-10 11:17:58

Ah. That's me, then (not that I'm Justine Thornton, I should make clear). Wet and wishy washy. Me. And Seeker. And lots of others here.

Fine. You think we're wishy washy. I actually do not give a flying fandango what you think about my involvement with the father of my children. I do think that I am - as is he - utterly committed to my children, and that that is separate from a commitment to my co-parent insofar as our relationship differs from co-parenting.

badfairy Tue 09-Nov-10 11:18:07

I think YABU too.

Jaquelinehyde Tue 09-Nov-10 11:18:10

So I presume you believe Justine is wet and wishy-washy? Or is it just him?

Either way I just don't get it. How can you judge either of them or both of them to be wish-washy or wet just because they have chosen so far not to get married?

Am I wishy-washy and wet along with large swathes of MN?

Why does beong married make you a better person?

YABU. None of your business. None of the country's business. If you want to base your vote on this when the next general election rolls round then that's your prerogative, but how does his marital status affect anyone really?

DamselInDisgrace Tue 09-Nov-10 11:20:42

Wow, isn't time travel awesome?

I'm sure his partner and the kids are quite happy that he's committed to them. I don't see why you're worrying about other people's relationships at all.

Mumwithadragontattoo Tue 09-Nov-10 11:20:47

YABU - I am very pro marriage and would not have had my children without being married but you cannot control what others do. I don't think it impacts at all on his suitability to be prime minister.

One of the benefits of being married is that it does give you a whole range of legal benefits easily. But you can provide for this in other ways such as drafting a will and life insurance.

MmeLindt Tue 09-Nov-10 11:21:16

And for our next time travel experience, we shall leave "1950s Mumsnet" and take a fascinating trip to "1970s Mumsnet".

We shall take a peek into threads such as:

"SHIT. Dropped a bottle of patchouli oil onto the sisal carpet. How do I get it out?"

"Free love - how do I explain to MIL?"

"OMG, look at this brand new invention - it is called a mooncup. Dare I try one?"

Sign up now. Fancy dress optional but not essential. Each poster shall receive a free cheesecloth smock.

passthechocs Tue 09-Nov-10 11:22:26

The view that marriage is required when you have children is stuck in the 1950's, but then so is the law in this country. I didn't want to get married as I do not want to be Mrs anyone (am still Miss, which really confuses people when they see my wedding ring wink. But without marriage, our kids would be disadvantaged if we split or dh died. I would not get his pension, death in service etc and would also have difficulties with the house. In such a situation, my children would miss out. Similarly, as I now work part time my salary/future earnings/pension are significantly reduced - much as I resent it, the whole marriage thing does protect me to some extent.

Would be interested to see if/how finances can be managed without marriage in the event of death/separation and still provide for all concerned?

seeker Tue 09-Nov-10 11:22:33

<was going to post something, but realized that I am too wishy-washy to have an opinion>

I was called a cheeky cow this morning. That's two insults before lunch - is this a record?


<<joins the 1970 mumsnet>>

Gooftroop Tue 09-Nov-10 11:23:16

Being married doesn't make you better. I'm not pro-marriage. No problem with single parents, no problem with choosing not to get married to father of one's child. No problem with any of it.

Kind of think it looks a bit commitment phobic though to be expanding your family and not wanting to seal the deal and get married IF you happen to be running for prime minister. I do!

Jaquelinehyde Tue 09-Nov-10 11:23:24

I suspect when David Cameron brings in his £20 per annum bonus for married couples that may just tip the balance for them and they will 'commit' to each other.

ChippingIn Tue 09-Nov-10 11:23:53

'Marriage shows commitment'

So what? Why do they need to 'show' they are committed to each other - it is their business - no one elses.

'Maybe question why you are so against marriage' - what makes you think they haven't done this in private.

(not picking on you Hammy - just the general tone of the thread!)

As Eliza said - it's marriage, not a magic spell!

MmeLindt Tue 09-Nov-10 11:24:36

<hands around incense sticks>

Seeker! Don't you go anywhere. Sit down and have a nice glass of warm mead.

ChippingIn Tue 09-Nov-10 11:24:42

Gooftroop YABVU

amongst other things.

GrimmaTheNome Tue 09-Nov-10 11:25:19

It would be 'wishy washy' if they got married just to please strangers who thought they 'should'.

Jaquelinehyde Tue 09-Nov-10 11:25:37

Your logic baffles me...So for everyone else it is fine but if you are the leader of the opposition and you have children, then you must be married otherwise it is just all so wrong confused this makes no sense at all!!

DamselInDisgrace Tue 09-Nov-10 11:26:28

What difference does running for prime minister make to someone's commitment to their partner? I'm not sure your job has anything to do with the level of commitment in your relationship.


Maybe the time travel has disorienting after-effects.

DamselInDisgrace Tue 09-Nov-10 11:27:40

Do you think the incense will make the time-travel induced confusion better or worse, MmeL?

MmeLindt Tue 09-Nov-10 11:32:14

Not sure, but it will get us into the right frame of mind.

<sings Kumbaya>

Unrulysun Tue 09-Nov-10 11:33:10

I have made a prawn cocktail, poached a side of salmon and bought a frozen Black Forest Gateau which I am going to defrost overnight. I've also put on a record by that nice Mr Liberace -does anyone know why he's not married? He seems so good with colours.

Hammy02 Tue 09-Nov-10 11:36:10

I think it's a shame that people think so little of something as wonderful as declaring your love for one another by getting married. I have yet to meet a woman that would not want to get married to the love of their life. By the way, I'm not a God-botherer so this is not a religious issue for me.

FindingMyMojo Tue 09-Nov-10 11:36:56

grin mmelindt "wim a way, wim a way..."


seeker Tue 09-Nov-10 11:37:40

"I have yet to meet a woman that would not want to get married to the love of their life."

Next time you're passing, pop in! I'll make you a cup of tea.

FindingMyMojo Tue 09-Nov-10 11:37:48

Hi Hammy meet me!

Unrulysun Tue 09-Nov-10 11:38:13

Hammy I have a feeling you're about to meet several albeit in virtual

motherinferior Tue 09-Nov-10 11:40:01

I am sure marriage is a lovely institution. I just don't want to live in an institution.

<joins 1970s gang, albeit the badge-wearing lefty ones>

passthechocs Tue 09-Nov-10 11:40:31

me to hammy!

Why do I have to be married to say I love someone? You sound like my MIL - she doubted my commitment to her son until (after 10 years) we got married - and yes, I did say it was only for his money grin.

Ormirian Tue 09-Nov-10 11:41:04

Don't be silly.

Hi Hammy

Gooftroop Tue 09-Nov-10 11:43:12

... wishy washy ... wet .... and also a bit organisationally challenged. Kind of gross that he says they'll 'get around to marriage' soon. If they're so proudly not into marriage then why is he saying that?

is that you mum???

or just another 60 year old, daily mail reader who thinks the world will end if we don't all have a bit of paper saying we're married?

DamselInDisgrace Tue 09-Nov-10 11:44:11

maybe he can't be arsed with all the petty crap that goes with organising a wedding (see every wedding thread on AIBU).

seeker Tue 09-Nov-10 11:48:01

<digs out old Greenham Common gear and prepares to embrace the base>

Hammy02 Tue 09-Nov-10 11:48:20

Bah-yer all just with fellas that won't marry you! Ducks for cover.

ChaoticAngel Tue 09-Nov-10 11:50:34

"But I do think I'm allowed to care a little bit about someone setting out to be prime minister."

Not read all the replies yet but had to answer this bit.

Ed Miliband's relationship is nothing to do with you whether he becomes PM or not. What he does as PM is your business, his private life, unless he chooses to spread it all over the tabloids, is not.

motherinferior Tue 09-Nov-10 11:51:59

Hammy, have you actually read the posts from me and others who've resisted the kindly suggestions of our partners to Make them the Happiest Men Alive?

My bloke would rather love it, I suspect, if I finally caved in.

FindingMyMojo Tue 09-Nov-10 11:52:59

OMG organising a wedding = My Worst Nightmare.

I can't even organise a small 3 year old birthday party - we've got 50 people coming & that's keeping it small as possible without being rude. If I was to marry (& I have no desire to) it would have to be an elopement or Vegas job.

Gooftroop Tue 09-Nov-10 11:55:35

Chaoticangel ... I hear you and sort of agree. Maybe I'll rephrase it: I can't HELP caring a little bit about someone setting out to be prime minister. I mean if he had four girlfriends at once and had fathered 15 children and they all lived together in a sort of Utah Mormon compound - well it would be his private life, and it wouldn't be my business, but I'd have an opinion about it.

And I have opinion about him not 'getting around' to marrying the partner as he announces birth of child number two.

Ormirian Tue 09-Nov-10 11:56:04

hammy _ I am married. I just don't see why anyone else has to do it.

passthechocs Tue 09-Nov-10 11:57:07

Getting married is different to having a wedding. I organised ours in an hour and would have held it in 2 weeks if we didn't need to do the whole posting band thing. I guess some in the family did think we were rude (only had 10 guests) but they have never told me - at least not to my face lol! Hotel after was lovely and we had really yummy food.

finding - Little Chapel of Elvis would have been my first choice!

MmeLindt Tue 09-Nov-10 11:57:32

I think we are all badge wearing lefty ones.

<pins poster of Che on the wall>

GrimmaTheNome Tue 09-Nov-10 11:59:58

Mind you, if he's scared of organising a wedding (not that blokes have to do more than turn up) then maybe he's not an ideal choice to run a political party let alone a countrygrin

domesticsluttery Tue 09-Nov-10 12:01:28


Getting married before having children was very important to me and DH. However plenty of people (including SIL) don't see it as important. SIL's partner is just as much a dad to their children as DH is to ours, and they are in just as committed a relationship.

Just because it is right for me doesn't make it right for everyone.

seeker Tue 09-Nov-10 12:02:21

<starts chanting "whatever we wear wherever we go yes means yes and no means no">

Unrulysun Tue 09-Nov-10 12:03:20

I had a letter on Points of View when I was 12 criticising an evil anti CND woman on telly and the Greenham Common women sent me a mug. I'm looking at it now

DamselInDisgrace Tue 09-Nov-10 12:04:01

I think running the country might be easier than organising a wedding!

Also, maybe he just can;'t be arsed. He deals with politics for a living, he doesn't have to turn his private life into some sort of political circus by daring to choose what food they're going to have at a wedding etc.

DamselInDisgrace Tue 09-Nov-10 12:04:47

by 'easier', I mean, you'll probably upset fewer people! grin

Unrulysun Tue 09-Nov-10 12:05:32

Grimma I'm not sure that being scared of organising a wedding doesn't show a great deal of sense.

Gooftroop Tue 09-Nov-10 12:06:50

I do love the idea that he's locked into a twilight world of saying he will get married soon, but never actually being able to have a wedding because of the enormity of choosing the food, the music, the venue etc for the wedding.

ChaoticAngel Tue 09-Nov-10 12:07:05

Maybe he's told the tabloids that he's 'getting around' to marriage to keep them off his back. He and his partner may have no intention of getting married or maybe they will when they decide the time is right, who knows?

I still think YABU

Gooftroop Tue 09-Nov-10 12:08:08

Or maybe he'll get married when he can decide between having a destination wedding in Bali or a knees up at the village hall.

DamselInDisgrace Tue 09-Nov-10 12:09:48

Perhaps its not the enormity of it. More that it's a lot of effort to go to when you're really not fussed either way.

I don't see why he should be forced to put up with all sorts of unnecessary family/friends crap just because you (and the daily mail) think he should be married.

olderandwider Tue 09-Nov-10 12:09:51

Personally don't understand why people have such a thing against marriage. It's a straightforward legal contract that tidies everything up if you own property jointly and have children together (prenups not withstanding).

What's the big deal?

motherinferior Tue 09-Nov-10 12:10:54

<pins on 'a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle' badge>

MmeLindt Tue 09-Nov-10 12:11:07

It is nothing to do with us. We do not have the right to go into every politicians life, their living room, their bedroom, snoop in their rubbish.

These are two adults who have made the decision to form a family. It is no less a family because they do not have a piece of paper with "Marriage Certificate" on the top of it.

And the legal side of it - we should perhaps leave that to Mr Miliband's partner who is presumably more knowledgeable about law that we are, being a barrister and all.

DamselInDisgrace Tue 09-Nov-10 12:12:04

maybe ed wants to get married but his partner doesn't. It's not just his decision.

marriage protects the financially weaker partner - usually the one gives up all her (usually her) income to raise the children.

if it is the financially stronger person that is declining to marry (it pretty much usually is) then IMO it's suspicious.

in the case of the millibands perhaps they are financial equals, who knows. But ig she becomes a SAHM she'd want to be married.

Gooftroop Tue 09-Nov-10 12:14:17

No one's forcing the poor blokey to do anything. I asked an anonymous question on mumsnet whether people think it's a bit wet that he didn't bother to get married when having child number two. Not exactly a witch hunt. I can hardly be blamed for the guy being wet, commitment phobic and indecisive, now can I?

olderandwider Tue 09-Nov-10 12:14:31

That's the point, Mmelindt. Whatever the Millibands do or don't do, my point was more general. Most of us aren't legal experts, and marriage offers legal protection in a way that simple cohabitation doesn't. You need to seek legal advice to get the same protection as you get automatically with marriage. So why not just get married and save the hassle?

seeker Tue 09-Nov-10 12:14:34

<rediscovers "Gardeners for a Nuclear Free Fuchsia" badge>

ElephantsAndMiasmas Tue 09-Nov-10 12:14:38

Good for you unrulysun.

OP - finished with that blacking yet?

YABU - I don't see how it's more responsible to have one child and then get married before the second one? Just leave them to it. Marriage is not evidence of strength of character - quite the opposite in many cases as people get bundled into it by peer pressure. An older friend of mine who has never married her partner has some VERY well-rehearsed arguments as to why not, as she has had to defend this decision so many times. If you are married, have you ever had to explain why you made the decision to be such a conformist? Probably not.

Squitten Tue 09-Nov-10 12:16:42

How can you possibly assume that he is any of those things?

I'm a fan of marriage myself and was married before having my kids but what's that got to do with running the country?? Why is he "wet"? Why can't he be committed to his partner without a wedding? And why is he indecisive? Seems to me that they are getting along swimmingly just as they are...

<sticks head into thread>

Ooh sorry. I appear to have stepped into the 1800s.

motherinferior Tue 09-Nov-10 12:18:45

Well, I used to earn more than DP and didn't want to get married. Now, because his salary went up and my earnings went down (on account of the recession, I'm a freelance journalist) I earn less than him and still don't want to get married.

So I have moved from being Suspicious to, presumably, Not Suspicious confused.

MmeLindt Tue 09-Nov-10 12:19:41

Huh? Why would she take legal advice. She is a barrister, I presume she can look it up herself.

Please do not try and tell me that sorting out a will or whatever is necessary to protect the family if anything happens to him would be more work than organising a wedding.

And it is irrelevant because it is their decision to make and they obviously at this moment in time do not want to.

<slips on some spilt Mary-Rose sauce>

Oi! Unrulyson. Be a bit more careful. I almost had my eye out on that incense stick.

MmeLindt Tue 09-Nov-10 12:20:45

No, no. We have moved on to the 1970s. Grab yourself a kaftan and put a sunflower in your hair.

motherinferior Tue 09-Nov-10 12:21:40

We're just about to get Equal Pay and everything.

Stop faffing around with incense sticks and pass the joint...

Lights joss stick, burns bra, reconsiders and digs out spare one.

None of our business is it? And I feel Justine may be the driving force behind it. The house in in her name, she hasn't named the father on the birth certificate, she has her own well paid career and Ed's parents had strong left wing & certainly feminist leanings on his mother's side.

She is putting herself in a strong position as a woman and for her children if anything should happen to their relationship.

Ed undoubtedly knows that and I'm sure they have taken the appropriate legal steps to provide for their children if the worse came to pass.

And unless they really feel like getting married, if they are both happy, keep things as they are.

motherinferior Tue 09-Nov-10 12:25:58



Oh OK I've caught up.

Anuone for a vol-au-vent? Creamed chicken or mushroom.

motherinferior Tue 09-Nov-10 12:28:17

Also, if she got married the tabloids - even if she kept her real name - would refer to her as Mrs Miliband shock. Like wot they do to that nice Miriam Gonzalez Durantez, Mrs Clegg-ing her all over the place. The horror.

DamselInDisgrace Tue 09-Nov-10 12:29:06

'I can hardly be blamed for the guy being wet, commitment phobic and indecisive, now can I?'

I think you may have made an unsustainable assumption or 3 there, OP. I think the fact that he's chosen to have 2 children with his partner and to bring them up together is a definite sign of commitment. I have no idea why you think it has anything to do with him being 'wet' or otherwise, and it doesn't necessarily mean he's indecisive because he may well have proposed and been turned down. As this thread demonstrates not all women think marriage is the high point of their existence.

<swishes her new giant flares>. Isn't brown corduroy fab?

onebatmother Tue 09-Nov-10 12:30:02

<stitches clothkits>

Fibilou Tue 09-Nov-10 12:30:05

Mme Lindt, I have a Manilow record and a lava lamp to add to the party. And could make a lovely pineapple & edam hedgehog

onebatmother Tue 09-Nov-10 12:31:33

MI vair true. To sprinkle insult on injury, Mrs Miliband sounds like a doughty matron from one of the minor Wildes.

Fibilou Tue 09-Nov-10 12:31:41

"no one's forcing the poor blokey to do anything. I asked an anonymous question on mumsnet whether people think it's a bit wet that he didn't bother to get married when having child number two. Not exactly a witch hunt. I can hardly be blamed for the guy being wet, commitment phobic and indecisive, now can ?

Erm, last time I checked it took 2 to make a wedding

motherinferior Tue 09-Nov-10 12:32:55

Although admittedly better than Mrs Clegg, of course. Mind you practically anything sounds better than Mrs Clegg.

DamselInDisgrace Tue 09-Nov-10 12:33:05

We had beef olives for dinner on Sunday, maybe I somehow knew I was going to be transported back to the 70s?

MmeLindt Tue 09-Nov-10 12:33:41

Acksherlly. Thinking about this. Isn't it totally offensive to assume that the only reason to get married would be in case Ed dies. So that the family are well cared for.

Bloody hell. She is a barrister and presumably capable of providing for herself and her children. As many millions of single mums do.

<nabs some cheese from the hedgehog>

Liluri Tue 09-Nov-10 12:34:07

Maybe they're waiting for Private Eye to offer them an exclusive deal for the wedding pictures.

passthechocs Tue 09-Nov-10 12:35:35

void good points.

<shudders at burning bra due to post 2 children boob issues>

We shouldn't have to get married to ensure our children are financially secure - but unfortunately our situation meant that marriage was the only way to do it. Have swallowed my principles for my kids but doesn't mean I have to like it!

Eleison Tue 09-Nov-10 12:35:44

Writing a will prob more helpful than getting married in the dead-Ed scenario anyway.

We haven't managed that -- even though you don't need to arrange a bloody party and a posh frock when you write a will.

MmeLindt Tue 09-Nov-10 12:37:18

Inappropriate LOLOL at Dead-Ed scenario.

<chokes on Franca's joint fumes>

DamselInDisgrace Tue 09-Nov-10 12:37:47

maybe wearing a posh frock would make will-writing more exciting?

We need to get round to writing wills. <heads off to google>

GypsyMoth Tue 09-Nov-10 12:38:23

My local MP is a single parent!

How would you feel if a (shock,horror!!!) single parent was to become prime minister???

Is a spouse obligatory??

BarbaraMillicentRoberts Tue 09-Nov-10 12:39:49

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

ColdComfortFarm Tue 09-Nov-10 12:40:36

lol at poor notmrsmiliband needing a ring to make her financially secure. She is a high earning barrister, the stonking great multimillion pound house is entirely hers, with only her name on the deeds. It's Mr Miliband who would benefit financially from a wedding, not his wealthy partner!

You need to be married to be a Prime Minister, if you want to be a good 'un.

As demonstrated by Blair and Cameron.

"Perhaps, like me. They prefer to complete their family before getting married to avoid some children being bastards and some not.

Oh fuck off. You utter fucking moron.

MilaMae Tue 09-Nov-10 12:43:12

Why on earth does not being married make you committment phobic?

Dp and I have 3 dc,been together 20 odd years and gone through a lot of things I happen to know for a fact finishes off many a marriage. The reason being we are committed to each other.

We may or may not get round to getting married but sorry the piece of paper is completely unnecessary.

Said piece of paper is pretty meaningless to be frank-just look at the divorce stats.

MilaMae Tue 09-Nov-10 12:44:28

Barbara I find your comment very hurtful,my beautiful children are not bastards.

passthechocs Tue 09-Nov-10 12:44:56

barbara you can actually get your children legitimised post marriage! Was gobsmacked that the word existed (not sure on spelling though) and that it was needed. Apparently a 'child of the marriage' would be given preference over our little bastard child not of marriage should dh and I die

ElephantsAndMiasmas Tue 09-Nov-10 12:45:30

<peers through fumes>

Seeker - you know you can actually come to Reclaim the Night on 27th November 1974 and join in with the "yes means yes" chant for old times' sake?

NordicPrincess Tue 09-Nov-10 12:46:20

what does his personal decision on his relationship have to do with his ability to do his job? Im quite happy he isnt married, he is representing a huge section of our population and doing it quite well

GypsyMoth Tue 09-Nov-10 12:47:47

God, only one of my 5 was born in marriage, that was dc4...... And I was unhappiest then

Gooftroop Tue 09-Nov-10 12:47:56

TIFFANY - I'd be happy if a single parent became prime minister - what on earth is there to be shocked about? I'd be happy if a partner in a gay couple became prime minister. And I'd be happy for Ed Miliband to be prime minister (if he wasn't so wishy washy, organisationally challenged and indecisive grin). I'm just saying IMO they should have got married before expanding their family all things being equal.

openerofjars Tue 09-Nov-10 12:49:30

OP, are you Justine's mum? Come on, out yerself. We know the truth.

DamselInDisgrace Tue 09-Nov-10 12:50:19

but why on earth was it ok to have one out of wedlock but not more?

haven't you heard of 'shotgun weddings'?

HecateQueenOfWitches Tue 09-Nov-10 12:50:20

Doesn't affect me in any way, so I don't care.

I don't care about any of the choices other people make that don't affect me. (abuse etc excepted, obviously!)

Gooftroop Tue 09-Nov-10 12:51:07

Justine is a lovely girl and I won't have her used this way! Sniff sniff

Gooftroop Tue 09-Nov-10 12:53:15

"Im quite happy he isnt married, he is representing a huge section of our population and doing it quite well"

Fair point, but not representing people who are married perhaps, a much maligned minority as this thread shows.

RockinSockBunnies Tue 09-Nov-10 12:53:16

I'm with the OP on this one. I had DD out of wedlock (got pregnant at 18). I now live with DP (not DD's father). He has a child from his previous relationship (they weren't married).

I think there are important reasons to get married.

1) Legal position: I'm a lawyer and marriage remains the most watertight protection for the family unit. Few cohabiting couples adequately protect themselves legally in the event that their relationship breaks down. I speak from experience here, with DP's horrendous legal battles with his ex when they broke up.

2) Two people can commit to raising a family together without being married. But, marrying someone is making a committment to that person, that you love, respect and value them and want to build your lives together. It's a way of making a statement, as are the vows that one makes.

3) Studies continue to show that the best environment in which to raise children is that where the parents are married (whether heterosexual or not). Cohabitees are statistically more likely to have their relationship fail than those who marry.

I'm adamant that if I have more children, I'll get married before doing so.

GypsyMoth Tue 09-Nov-10 13:00:54

Studies also show how many marriages end in divorce!!!!!!

Am sure someone can provide the figures, but I know it's HIGH

4madboys Tue 09-Nov-10 13:02:16

well i am expecting baby no 5, dp and i had no 1 when we were at uni, 12yrs later we are still together, have a mortgage and 4 kids, no5 due in a fortnight but we havent got married shock we have sorted out a will etc to make sure the kids are covered should anything happen to either of us, but dont see any need to get married, it wouldnt change our relationship and doesnt mean anything to either of us.

so we must be REALLY unreasonable to have 5 planned children out of wedlock shock

honestly it is nobodies business but theirs, who cares if they are married or not?!

ColdComfortFarm Tue 09-Nov-10 13:03:39

Ms THornton does not need Mr Miliband's protection financially, and maybe she doesn't want to marry him?

Eleison Tue 09-Nov-10 13:05:49

Actually, the horribly retrograde concentration on party leaders' spouses which has increased massively over the last decade or so makes me feel glad that Ed-M and his partner aren't married. Every step away from Stepford is to be welcomed if it undermines the possibility of the next Labour leader have some beautified PR tickbox at his side. I hope Justine gets tattoos and starts smoking and swearing at journalists, just to be on the safe side.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou Tue 09-Nov-10 13:07:37

RockinSockBunnies - Re:3(b) All that shows is that the kind of people who get married are more likely to stay together than those who co-habit. For this to be a point in favour of marriage, you need to show that a marriage itself increases the chances of the couple staying together.

re:3(a) Citation needed - That the best environment is one with two parents seems plausible - that married as opposed to cohabiting makes a difference seems unlikely, so I'd like to see what studies state this. Unless this is just a factor of more cohabiting parents splitting up in which case see above.

omnishambles Tue 09-Nov-10 13:11:19

<peers through leaves of enormous cheese plant>

I actually think that having dcs together IS more commitment than being married because you will (in an ideal scenario and certainly in mine) be in touch with that person no matter what happens in your relationship.

If you are married and dont have dc then you can walk away and never see eachother again if you divorce. Ever.

Hasnt it be shown in places like Iceland (the country not the frozen food emporium) that its the way you parent and model relationships - apart or together that matters and not your marital status?

I actually cant believe that people care about this nowadays.

Gooftroop Tue 09-Nov-10 13:12:05

RockinSocks - You're not allowed to say something like that on mumsnet. It's only ok to have five children without being married and ridicule people who think marriage might not be a horrible idea.wink

ColdComfortFarm Tue 09-Nov-10 13:12:19

when you compare all cohabiting relationships with married relationships you aren't comparing like with like. 'Cohabitation' comes in lots of different forms, from the temporary young or uncommitted boyfriend/girlfriend situation where an accidental pregnancy occurs to middleaged, middleclass professionals who buy a house together and plan their children with the same dullness as a regular married couple, a la the Milibands. If you take this type of cohabitee I would guess the outcomes in terms of longevity of relationship and wellbeing of children would work out pretty much the same, and I speak as a married person.

IWantToBeAFairyWhenIGrowUp Tue 09-Nov-10 13:12:54

YABVU - apart from the fact we don't live in the dark ages, its none of you business.

DamselInDisgrace Tue 09-Nov-10 13:15:43

gooftroop: I think you'll find that plenty of the people saying you're unreasonable (and passing around cubes of cheese on cocktail sticks) actually are married. It's not necessarily some conspiracy against marriage.

ColdComfortFarm Tue 09-Nov-10 13:16:04

If you include cohabitees of all types with married people then you really aren't comparing like with like! I lived with a couple of boyfriends, but never ever intended the relationship to be lifelong. It was a convenience/financial decision. I wouldn't have got married to those boyfriends - it was a totally different kind of relationship. My friends who are long term cohabitee parents have the same kind of relationship I have. Indeed I lived with my husband before I got married, but knew from the start that I intended this relationship to last.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou Tue 09-Nov-10 13:23:26

Gooftroop - Why do YOU think they should have got married? AS far as I can tell you think it makes him look bad, but you don't explain why.

stillfrazzled Tue 09-Nov-10 13:26:51

<stands up>

I'm married and I think Gooftroop is BU.

C'mon, it could be a Spartacus moment grin

I got married because I wanted to. EM and JT apparently don't. No-one else's business either way, however many net curtains get twitched.

<unveils cheese and pineapple hedgehog and smiles smugly>

motherinferior Tue 09-Nov-10 13:29:17

1) Legal position: I'm a lawyer and marriage remains the most watertight protection for the family unit. Few cohabiting couples adequately protect themselves legally in the event that their relationship breaks down.

But the fact that some 'few' do (although I would like statistics, please, and indeed a definition of 'adequately') demonstrates that it is possible. And once again, we point to the fact that the laydee in question is really quite legally competent and presumably has, you know, other lawyer friends who can help out in those areas in which she does not personally specialise...

2) Two people can commit to raising a family together without being married. But, marrying someone is making a committment to that person, that you love, respect and value them and want to build your lives together. It's a way of making a statement, as are the vows that one makes.

That's purely your opinion. And in any case that is not the only reason people get married. They get married because they 'ought' to. They get married because someone else is putting pressure on them. They get married because they want a demonstration that their partner loves them, and think this is the best way.

3) Studies continue to show that the best environment in which to raise children is that where the parents are married (whether heterosexual or not). Cohabitees are statistically more likely to have their relationship fail than those who marry.
Which studies? How many and who conducted them? And the point about cohabitees is made above. (I would query, as well, the use of the term 'fail' - yes, some relationships, including ones that have produced children, finish. This is not in all cases a Bad Thing.)


Gooftroop Tue 09-Nov-10 13:34:55

TheCoalitionNeedsYou thank you for asking. Ready? You're going to love this.

Ideally I think people should be married before they have children. Outrageous, I know.

That's ideally. Of course it won't be right for tons of people, won't be possible for others, won't be desireable for some etc. That's all fine. Marriages aren't perfect, far from it, but they are the building blocks of our society and have been for thousands of years. Most
studies support the notion that, on
average, children do best when raised by
two married parents who have low-conflict relationships.

And I think it's nice for the kids too to know their parents have made that commitment, especially if your dad happens to be prime minister.

QueenGigantaurofMnet Tue 09-Nov-10 13:35:19

Yanbu. Your being a Twat.

DamselInDisgrace Tue 09-Nov-10 13:36:37

the especially if your dad happens top want to be prime minister bit still makes no sense, OP. None at all.

My DH would love to be in the top 100 geometry wars players in the world. I don't think this has anything to do with his level of commitment to me, or the level of commitment he demonstrates to me for the kids.

Gooftroop Tue 09-Nov-10 13:36:40

"Yanbu. Your being a Twat."

And so it begins.

electra Tue 09-Nov-10 13:37:15


The importance or otherwise of marriage is a personal issue and not for others to pass judgment on. Some people don't believe in it.

Why do you even care?

MollysChambers Tue 09-Nov-10 13:38:07

What QueenGigantaur said.

And for the record I'm happily married and was prior to having kids.

Here's what I don't understand. Statistics show that co habiting couples who then get married have a 1:3 chance of getting divorced, or thereabouts. Please don't ask for a link because I can't remember where I read this. Am happy to be wrong etc.

But apparently marriage is supposed to make a stronger bond.

Could someone explain to me why then co habiting couples should get married if statistically they would be worse off than if they stayed co habiting?

DamselInDisgrace Tue 09-Nov-10 13:41:41

surely if they have a 1 in 3 chance of getting divorced, they've a 2 in 3 chance of staying together though.

In any case, statistics are just generalised abstractions; they don't actually say anything directly about anyone's personal circumstances.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou Tue 09-Nov-10 13:42:49

Gooftroop - Ok so it's point 3 of RockInSockBunnies points then.

Can you or RockInSockBunnies reference the studies you are referring to? I am not aware of any that show that MARRIAGE is a critical component of providing two parents who have low-conflict relationships.

I am also happily married and was when DS came along.

My mum wasn't married to my dad when I came along. They're still togetehr now, which is more than I can say for most of my mate's married parents who are now making up the divorce statistics.

OP is talking bollocks.

<pours a creme de menthe>

MoralDefective Tue 09-Nov-10 13:45:31

It's none of anyone's business if they are married or not.
DP and i are 25 years in January,we have three well grounded,lovely children(young adults).
Our business.

motherinferior Tue 09-Nov-10 13:45:37

This is interesting:
Previous commentators have concluded that children born to cohabiting parents have worse outcomes than those born to married couples. It is also widely acknowledged, however, that cohabiting parents differ systematically from married parents in many ways aside from their formal marital status; typically they are less educated, younger and have a lower household income, than married parents. They may also differ in less easily observable ways, for example in their relationship quality, stability and commitment to their partner even before the birth of their child. Once these factors are accounted for, there may be smaller or no differences in their children's outcomes.

Gay40 Tue 09-Nov-10 13:47:01

I can't get married, thanks. So what do you make of that? If I was Prime Minister, or DP was, we couldn't - I repeat couldn't - get married.
No, civil partnerships are not the same. Don't be conned into thinking they are.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou Tue 09-Nov-10 13:49:41

Aye - how rich you are is a better indicator of how well your children will do that how married you are.

YOU, Gay40, are to be consigned to the bin of rejects of life.

If OP's jurassic attitude is anything to go by.

MoralDefective Tue 09-Nov-10 13:55:05

Ah yes,these studies that say co-habiting parents tend to be less well educated and that their children do less well at school.
Not so in my experience.
I met DP when we were both doing our Nurse training,we are both qualified (registered)Nurses.
DP has since re trained to become an electrician.
DD works in a bank,DS1 is doing an apprenticeship to become a marine electrician and DS2 is currently doing science A levels.

No one ever asks us when they're doing their 'studies'

TheCoalitionNeedsYou Tue 09-Nov-10 13:55:12

Gay40 - You CAN get married though. Just not to the person you are in a relationship with.

Bella32 Tue 09-Nov-10 13:55:29

An MP had sex with a woman who is not his wife?

So what's new? grin

DamselInDisgrace Tue 09-Nov-10 13:59:29

MoralDefective: that's the problem with large-scale quantitative research; it doesn't deal with particulars. All is points to are general trends (and indicates the strength and sometimes directions of relationships between variables, which are more or less reliably approximated in something you can measure).

Just because co-habiting couples might generally tend to be younger/less educated/like sausages more than burgers/whatever else you want to compare, it doesn't mean that those you know are/do any of those things.

MoralDefective Tue 09-Nov-10 13:59:32

So let's see
The rich children of celebrities do well?
The rich children of the upper classes do well?
Not all of them do.
Money doesn't always buy stability,or even brains.

staranise Tue 09-Nov-10 14:01:29

Perhape he is desperate to get married.
Perhaps he has no intention of getting married ever.

Either way, what marriage means to him is almost certainly not what it means to you or to me. Therefore, his marital status is not something we can reasonably pass judgement on. If you don't want an unmarried PM, don't vote for him (though if that is your most important criteria in a politician, that would be quite strange).

Gooftroop Tue 09-Nov-10 14:03:56

Gay40 as you say, you can't. Fine. You could do a civil partnership if you feel like it but who cares, up to you.

Ed Miliband doesn't have that restriction. He's just a bit busy apparently and 'hasn't got round to it'. So I should add that in addition to be indecisive and wishy washy he's a real charmer with the ladies.

I like him fine otherwise. smile

TheCoalitionNeedsYou Tue 09-Nov-10 14:04:55

MoralDefective - It's mot about what all of them do. It's about what most of them do.

The children of the richest people are more likely to be rich than the children of the poorest people.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou Tue 09-Nov-10 14:05:55

DamselDefective - That's not the problem with large-scale quantitative research. That is the great strength of large-scale quantitative research.

DamselInDisgrace Tue 09-Nov-10 14:06:19

I'm currently imagining the OP peering out through her nets taking notes on which of her neighbours have failed to open their curtains this morning. And tutting.

MoralDefective Tue 09-Nov-10 14:07:16

I agree DamselinDisgrace,however it does sometimes get a little tiresome to have people passing comment on other people's marital status,and passing judgement on their childrens prospects.

Most of our children's friends have parents who are divorced.
DD and i counted through her friends with parents who are still together.She can count them one one hand.

DamselInDisgrace Tue 09-Nov-10 14:08:11

well it is the problem with it if people are going to look at it and say, but II don't fit that so it can;t be true.

It's a great strength in many respects. For example, its useful for policy-makers who have to work on large scale trends in society. But it's not a good way to discuss or assess the particular experiences of individual families.

Gooftroop Tue 09-Nov-10 14:08:31

And no one replied to my earlier point about what if he had 4 girlfriends at once, all aged 21, and they all lived together with their 15 babies. It would be none of my business ... but presumably it would be permissible for me to have an opinion on it? Or not?

DamselInDisgrace Tue 09-Nov-10 14:09:15

or, even worse, it's really a problem when people take the results of large-scale research and use it to judge individuals.

staranise Tue 09-Nov-10 14:09:20

Oh please. We had our first 2 DDs before getting married. If/when people asked us about getting married, I used to reply things like 'just haven't got round to it' in order to fob them off and that was speaking to people I knew, never mind the media.

In reality it was a lot more complicated involving things like family politics, logistics (we lived abroad), my pregnancies etc etc. I didn't feel the need to explain these. Being married wasn't (and still isn't) very important to me. Having a family while we were young enough to do so was, So we prioritised the latter.

And you seem to think that this decision is EM's alone! Perhaps he is desperate to get married but his partner isn't?

smallwhitecat Tue 09-Nov-10 14:11:13

Message withdrawn

TheCoalitionNeedsYou Tue 09-Nov-10 14:11:57

Damselindisgrace - Those are problems with people not with large scale quantative research ;)

DamselInDisgrace Tue 09-Nov-10 14:14:30

well the 'problem' with large-scale research is that it can't say anything about individual circumstances. There are always problems with different kinds of research, that's why researchers spend so bloody long discussing the various limitations and mitigating factors in their studies. That doesn't stop the press sweeping in and ignoring all that with an attention grabbing headline: 'Married couples have healthier children because they eat fewer biscuits'.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou Tue 09-Nov-10 14:14:32

gooftroop - You can have an opinion on whatever you like.

But if I don't agree with it I'm going to ask you why you hold that opinion, and if you cite 'studies' I'm going to ask which ones.

MmeLindt Tue 09-Nov-10 14:15:38

"...children do best when raised by
two married parents who have low-conflict relationships."

Children do best when raised by parents who have a low-conflict relationship - their marital states in neither here nor there.

mmmm, creme de menthe.

<lights some harmony incense sticks>

Peace and love, comrades.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou Tue 09-Nov-10 14:15:54

DamselInDisgrace - The 'problem' is that people are stupid.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou Tue 09-Nov-10 14:16:30

This applies to most problems to be honest.

WashingBasketMonster Tue 09-Nov-10 14:19:31

I agree with MmeLindt

MoralDefective Tue 09-Nov-10 14:20:39

My DP asked me to marry him.
I didn't want to be married.
Sometimes i think maybe i should have just done it as it would have made him happy,but once we'd had DD and DS1 and 2 there really didn't seem to be alot of point.
I always trusted him and him me.

DamselInDisgrace Tue 09-Nov-10 14:21:35

Well, that is very true. People being stupid is always going to be a problem (and I include myself in the stupid category).

However, it doesn't mean that dealing with the general rather than the particular can't be a 'problem' for certain types of research. Strengths and weaknesses and all that... The point is, any research that tells you about how children in general do in whatever circumstances is resolutely not supposed to tell you about individual circumstances. I should probably have phrased the first post on this as 'the thing about' rather than 'the problem with'.

marantha Tue 09-Nov-10 14:21:44

I don't care if he is married or not-it's no reflection on his abilities as a father at all.

The only time I get annoyed about the 'marriage or not' issue is when people who are UNmarried want same rights as married people. This DOES pee me off as it takes away freedom of choice. In other words, I want the choice to say when I am formally committed to another adult. I do NOT wish the state to make it for ME just because I've lived with someone for a while.

As long as Ed and partner don't start going on about how 'unfair' it is that they don't have similar rights to married people and sort out their own private financial arrangements without expecting state to intervene in event of a future split, they're fine by me.

DamselInDisgrace Tue 09-Nov-10 14:22:04

I totally disagree with MmeLindt. Creme de Menthe is vile.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou Tue 09-Nov-10 14:26:05

DamselInDisgrace - One of the examples of people's stupidity is that they don't understand this 'any research that tells you about how children in general do in whatever circumstances is resolutely not supposed to tell you about individual circumstances', even when you tell them so.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou Tue 09-Nov-10 14:28:51

I'm trying to get to a point about the failure of education in this country, but I keep not quite getting there.

This kind of basic epistomology (doing x means y happens more often != if you do x you get y)
should be primary school stuff.

passthechocs Tue 09-Nov-10 14:31:56

marantha that would be fine if it wasn't for all the baggage that comes from marriage. I would like the legal rights that marriage provides without said baggage - and yes I am one of those people who objects to being referred to as Mrs <insert dh name here>.

<hunts for another bra to burn - boobs sag further>

Why is that wrong? I know some people can ensure financial security by having a will but for us a will would not have been enough and my children would have missed out (as would I, but that would have been my choice) and for the financial bits that could be dealt with by a will, not being married would have made probate much longer and in what would be a stressful time was not something I would want.

Now am rambling!

becaroo Tue 09-Nov-10 14:33:08

chortle.......thank you...I needed a good laugh today! grin

I am married because I wanted to be

Some people SHOCK HORROR!!!! dont want to be.

There are plenty of kids I know being brought up in toxic households where their parents are married amd miserable.

Better to have happy kids and be co habiting or single, surely??

TheCoalitionNeedsYou Tue 09-Nov-10 14:33:36

passthechocs - You can get married ans still continue to call yourself whatever the hell you like. You don't even need to tell people you are married.

DamselInDisgrace Tue 09-Nov-10 14:36:10

I completely agree with you coalition. It is a failure of education.

passthechocs Tue 09-Nov-10 14:37:46

coalition I thought that but still get called Mrs etc by lots of people - including family <stomps foot>

Eleison Tue 09-Nov-10 14:38:40

I got married only because I didn't want my older relatives, and my DP's older relatives, to feel sad or confused. It just seemed like a kindness to them. Plus a vague feeling that I would be some sort of social no-hoper if I didn't organise a wedding event. Like not cooking Christmas dinner.

Marriage means absolutely bugger, bugger all to me. I care about Ed's marital status about as much as I care whether or not he plays backgammon.

marantha Tue 09-Nov-10 14:41:50

Marriage need NOT have any baggage attached to it- the baggage is all in people's heads.
Marriage is fundamentally a declaration to the legal system govt that two people wish to tie themselves together as a unit.
Sorry to be unromantic, but that it is what it is all about.

Now whether people do or not (marry) is their call. I don't care. What does seriously get on my wick is when cohabitees moan (like children) ' 'snot fair' when they are told, 'Sorry, no marriage, no right to half partner's house because you didn't formally tell us of your coupleship'.

I mean, do these people think the state has a crystal ball and can know all about their interpersonal relationships with another adult?! It's so unrealistic of them to expect this.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou Tue 09-Nov-10 14:41:58

passthechocs - get a PhD ;)

Or a knighthood.

DamselInDisgrace Tue 09-Nov-10 14:42:38

I get called Mrs DS1's surname all the time, even though I've never been married to his dad. I also get called Mrs DS2's/DH's surname regularly, although I've always gone by Ms InDisgrace. Soon I shall be going by Dr InDisgrace, but I doubt anyone will ever use it.

I don't really care. Mostly I prefer everyone to call me Damsel.

HalfTermHero Tue 09-Nov-10 14:42:53

Op, u have a cock for a brain and you know it.

motherinferior Tue 09-Nov-10 14:47:47

Eleison, I don't cook Christmas dinner either grin

I really am a Failure as a Woman, aren't I.

MmeLindt Tue 09-Nov-10 14:50:37

I have never actually tried Creme de Menthe but it does sound more sophisticated that Bailey's Irish Cream, which was my mother's favourite drink in the 70s.

Or Martini Bianco.

<stirs swizzlestick>

I do Xmas lunch. But no sprouts.

DamselInDisgrace Tue 09-Nov-10 14:52:30

I'm doing Christmas lunch for the first time this year. We're not having turkey or sprouts.

Take my word for it, creme de menthe is horrible stuff. I think you should break out the Babysham. My gran used to drink Brandy and Babysham.

passthechocs Tue 09-Nov-10 14:52:37

marantha I share the unromantic view on marriage, but am afraid that I disagree on the baggage thing. Marriage has been around a long time and brings with it a lot of issues - these can be ignored but they are still there, are an intrinsic part of the ceremony and how married couples are treated by individuals and by society.

passthechocs Tue 09-Nov-10 14:54:11

And like the idea of Sir Passthechocs lol

Unrulysun Tue 09-Nov-10 14:55:31

I think the major issue with the debate about research practices is...oooh, vol au vents. And cheese and pineapple. Marvellous. Oh I don't really... Well OK if you're sure...<tokes deeply>...sorry you were saying?

people are confusing weddings, with marriage.

- weddings are about publically signalling commitment.

- marriage is about legal protection for children and financially poorer partner.

you can have one without the other: hindus, muslims, quakers, methodists, witches, jedi knights all have wedding ceremonies which do NOT result in a legal marriage (they have to go to the registry office for that)

you can get married without any public display at all - just go to the registry office, pay your fee and get married. no one even need know.

marriage is about a legal contract, mainly financial. Avoiding a wedding is for emotional reasons. Avoiding marriage is almost always for financial reasons.

passthechocs Tue 09-Nov-10 14:58:19

Oh, and creme de menthe always sounds disgusting. Haven't drunk Baileys since my mums baileys actually set in the bottle. Make mine an advocaat.

DamselInDisgrace Tue 09-Nov-10 14:58:37

I think the OP wants your description of 'weddings' rather than 'marriage' in Ed's case, stubbornhubby. She's annoyed that Ed hasn't made a public declaration.

Are they mushroom vol-au-vents Unruly?

When I was in primary 6 our class staged a fake wedding. One of the dishes available at the buffet was mushroom vol-au-vents. <classy>

motherinferior Tue 09-Nov-10 14:59:14

Thanks for telling us what we think, Stubbornhubby [sceptical].

Marriage is not solely a legal contract, in this country certainly. See Gay40's point about how it differs from a civil ceremony - I suspect I wouldn't object much to a civil ceremony myself, and support the heterosexual couple which is pressing for one.

I do avoid marriage for 'emotional' - if by that you wish to sum up my political position as well - reasons.

Hullygully Tue 09-Nov-10 14:59:49

I agree.

It's disgraceful. Horsewhip the young puppy and hang him out to dry. Egad.

hermoike Tue 09-Nov-10 15:01:03

maybe it is the religious bit she is not happy about. I think only men are allowed to initiate a jewish divorce, not women. That would put me off.

marantha Tue 09-Nov-10 15:03:47

passthechocs Yes, but of course, married people are treated differently to single/cohabiting people.
A married couple have made a statement that they wish to be seen as a legal, formal unit, therefore, they are taken at their word and treated as a unit. I don't see the problem.

As long as nobody is FORCED into marriage or had the state declare them to be 'married' because they've lived with someone (and believe me there is NOTHING fair about cohabitee rights-it is imposing marriage upon people who, had they wished those rights, would have gotten married), I don't see the issue.

Gooftroop Tue 09-Nov-10 15:05:37

Am not annoyed Ed hasn't made a public declarations. It's definitely marriage, not wedding, I talking about and he should get off his too-busy, wishy washy backside and tie the knot. He's leader of the opposition f'r chissake.

marantha Tue 09-Nov-10 15:06:04

motherinferior If marriage is NOT at it's core a legal matter, then tell me why it is just the lawyers that get involved when a couple divorce and not the cake-makers, vicar, frock-maker or guests?

PerfectlyNormalInFrance Tue 09-Nov-10 15:07:38

but gooftroop, you just want him to declare him commitment publicly enough for you to be satisfied. Perhaps he could write you a letter?

motherinferior Tue 09-Nov-10 15:08:57

I said solely, not 'at its core'. I meant all the other...^stuff^ associated with marriage. The connotations and the history and the sentimentality and the expectations of Love and Lifelong Commitment, and the relatives and the tears.

And the religion, of course.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou Tue 09-Nov-10 15:09:29

hermoike - I don't think the secular (probably atheist) David Miliband is likely to have a Jewish wedding.

marantha Tue 09-Nov-10 15:11:02

But what is so special about marriage? It is at its heart a shorthand way for a couple to make a statement of coupleship for legal matters, if he and his partner have satisfied their financial/legal situation to suit them both-why should they marry?
I see no point to it.

Gooftroop Tue 09-Nov-10 15:11:55

Yes. Ed should write me a letter.

No, he should pencil in an hour sometime in 2011 to navigate his backside to a registry office and make an honest woman of his partner.

PerfectlyNormalInFrance Tue 09-Nov-10 15:12:00

maybe they're avoiding getting married because there will be familial tensions over not having a Jewish wedding?

What I really mean is: who cares?

TheCoalitionNeedsYou Tue 09-Nov-10 15:12:18

Marriage and Civil partnership ARE basically the same. Marriage is entirely a legal matter. All the 'baggage' etc is stuff that WE bring to it not inherent within it.

PerfectlyNormalInFrance Tue 09-Nov-10 15:12:38

'honest woman'!

More time-travel.

Gooftroop Tue 09-Nov-10 15:13:08

by the way, i joking - the bit about 'honest woman'. Thought I'd better say that before you all come torch my house.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou Tue 09-Nov-10 15:13:09

PerfectlyNormalinFrance - What with his athiest marxist parents?

TheCoalitionNeedsYou Tue 09-Nov-10 15:13:50

Though maybe HER parents want the big church wedding.

motherinferior Tue 09-Nov-10 15:14:13

Perhaps there are Embarrassing Aunties. (If Jewish aunties are anything like Indian Aunties they are bound to be embarrassing, believe me.)

PerfectlyNormalInFrance Tue 09-Nov-10 15:14:13

Well, by 'family' I mean nosy buggers who have no business caring either way.

PerfectlyNormalInFrance Tue 09-Nov-10 15:14:31

who may, or may not, be related to him.

motherinferior Tue 09-Nov-10 15:15:29

Maybe they're worried - now - that his brother will flounce dramatically half-way through in order to grab the limelight.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou Tue 09-Nov-10 15:15:54

Maybe he is ALREADY secretly married tom I dunno a Rothschild or Mao's grandaughter or something.

<channels Claig>

kitten30 Tue 09-Nov-10 15:16:08

YABU I am very happy he didnt because it shows he is not just doing things in his personal life because he thinks it will help his political career. I lived with my husband for ten years before getting married and we only did it because we were having a baby and STILL people have these old fashioned ideas. Needless to say it hasnt changed a thing between us and was a waste of money and a pain in the arse changing everything into my married name. Marriage is a piece of paper..nothing can be gotten out of easily. Never forget that!

PerfectlyNormalInFrance Tue 09-Nov-10 15:16:37

Maybe he's worried that David will start 10 AIBU threads on here in relation to the wedding?

Gooftroop Tue 09-Nov-10 15:18:04

his brother will flounce dramatically half-way through in order to grab the limelight.


TheCoalitionNeedsYou Tue 09-Nov-10 15:19:23

I know, I know! His birth certificate would show he had been born a girl!

No, hang on...

Born Jewish!


A Muslim!

PerfectlyNormalInFrance Tue 09-Nov-10 15:20:45

Worse than that... it'll come out that they didn't have sugared almonds and the daily mail will vilify them for defying tradition.

Kewcumber Tue 09-Nov-10 15:21:18

I'm single, have one DS, don't particularly want to be married (don't even know who DS's father is wink and he's not named on DS's brith cert for that very good reason) but happily troll along to friends weddings so am not anti-marriage per se. Just not particularly interested n it myself.

But... I don't think any prospective employer would be one jot interested in any of that only whether I was competent to do the job. Why as his prospective employers would his martial status interest anyone?

Blimey no hope for me being Prime Minister is there.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou Tue 09-Nov-10 15:21:32

I think we should all spread the rumour that David Miliband isn't getting married because he is secretly a Muslim woman.

marantha Tue 09-Nov-10 15:22:06

kitten30 While I agree that from a commitment point of view, marriage may make no/little difference to people's feelings, it certainly does make a difference to their legal status.
No way is it 'just a piece of paper' in the legal/financial sense.
It makes a hell of a difference. For example, cohabitees have no automatic rights to partner's estate should they (partner) die intestate. With marriage, the spouse is next-in-line.

saffy85 Tue 09-Nov-10 15:22:52


But then I would say that. I'm expecting my second DC and never intend to get married. Do I care what anyone else thinks? Do I bollocks. smile

Unrulysun Tue 09-Nov-10 15:24:40

Damsel are there other flavours of vol au vent? Not here in 1974 there aren't. Pray do tell of this brave new world which has such wonders in it.

And MmeLindt can you be more careful with the linoleum? Proper tile effect that is.

Have we still not agreed on this? Despite it being 100 to 1 in favour of YABU?

Gooftroop Tue 09-Nov-10 15:27:36

Don't worry saffy, no one cares what you do. I barely care what Ed does tbh.

I just care a tiny bit.

Gooftroop Tue 09-Nov-10 15:29:06

Now, now unrulysun, I've gone through all the replies with my micrometre and spread sheets and think 4 people do not think I am clinically insane. I think I'm doing quite well.

kitten30 Tue 09-Nov-10 15:31:26

marantha .. have you never heard of a legal document called a will?

TheCoalitionNeedsYou Tue 09-Nov-10 15:32:25

Gooftroop - Am I one of the four? I don't think you are mad. Just very poor at backing up your opinions.

PerfectlyNormalInFrance Tue 09-Nov-10 15:34:45

4 favourable posts out of 271 is a 0.015 success rate. I wouldn't say that was good.

Apparently vol-au-vents can have prawns in them. I'm sure that combining prawn cocktail and vol-au-vents was the height of sophistication.

('tis Damsel)

Kewcumber Tue 09-Nov-10 15:36:22

I soooo wanted someone to pick me up on this "don't even know who DS's father is" but you are all beeding heart liberals (or just don't care grin. Pah!

passthechocs Tue 09-Nov-10 15:38:03

kitten a will won't always cover you. And even if it does, it will mean that the money that is transferred may be subject to tax. It will probably take much longer as well.

gooftroop don't think you are insane, just don't agree with you!

passthechocs Tue 09-Nov-10 15:39:15

And Damsel - congrats on becoming Dr Damsel

MmeLindt Tue 09-Nov-10 15:40:30

Sorry, but I already know your story and have read the lovely blog about it. How is your DS btw?

Yes, prawns in vol u vents were tres sophisticated chez Lindt.

I do seem to recall egg mayo and tuna mayo making an appearance, so perhaps not quite so sophisticated.

BedTooBigFryingPanTooWide Tue 09-Nov-10 15:40:55
marantha Tue 09-Nov-10 15:40:59

kitten30 I think you'll find the word 'intestate' means 'without a will', so I don't quite see your point here.

PerfectlyNormalInFrance Tue 09-Nov-10 15:41:12

Oh not yet, passthechocs. I should be Dr Damsel by the end of the month. Or Dr WhateverNameI'mUsingAtTheTime. Assuming all goes well that is...

kitten30 Tue 09-Nov-10 15:42:16

So if people choose not to marry and they are worried about finances then just get a will instead of a marriage certificate.

marantha Tue 09-Nov-10 15:43:15

kitten30 Yes, that sounds reasonable to me.

passthechocs Tue 09-Nov-10 15:44:19

Well, congrats in anticipation then!

MmeLindt Tue 09-Nov-10 15:44:33

the "help available to widows and widowers" that the letter in the Guardian refers to - that would presumably be financial assistance. Which Justine presumably does not need.

BedTooBigFryingPanTooWide Tue 09-Nov-10 15:45:18

Our having a will made a massive difference to me when OH died, but legally I was still fucked in a couple of other ways.
I reiterate: here

BedTooBigFryingPanTooWide Tue 09-Nov-10 15:46:34

MmeLindt - presumably not! She'd still have had the birth cert trouble though.

Kewcumber Tue 09-Nov-10 15:46:35

Mme - DS is fab and started school in Sept shock

DamselInDisgrace Tue 09-Nov-10 15:47:12

He's not on the birth certificate for the other kids apparently, so I doubt she'd worry about that.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou Tue 09-Nov-10 15:47:41

People who want the benefits of marriage should just get married. It's a lot easier.

Gooftroop Tue 09-Nov-10 15:47:48

Thecoalition- no, I hadn't included you. But if you will allow me, despite my crap backing up of my opinions, then that gives me a whopping 5.

Well everyone, just don't come crying to me when Justine trots off with the milkman leaving poor Ed with no rights to the children.

Bucharest Tue 09-Nov-10 15:49:51

Blimey, that'll teach me not to read whole thread...thought for a minute there our Justine had had a baby with Ed Miliband.

Isn't he married? Has he had a baby?



BedTooBigFryingPanTooWide Tue 09-Nov-10 15:49:57

Damsel, true - I'd forgotten about that.

MmeLindt Tue 09-Nov-10 15:52:42

LOL Bucharest. That would be one for an AIBU thread.

AIBU to think that JustineMN should not be having babies with the leader of the opposition? And if she does, she should as US to name the baby.

Bucharest Tue 09-Nov-10 15:54:04


I'd have his babies.


Unrulysun Tue 09-Nov-10 15:54:41

5 yes. But how many of those from 2010?

BedTooBigFryingPanTooWide Tue 09-Nov-10 15:55:41

Coalition, yeah we probably would have done had we known. Why should there be a widowed parent benefit at all, though?
Either every parent who can demonstrate a financial loss from the death of the other parent should get it, or no one should.

DamselInDisgrace Tue 09-Nov-10 15:56:16

I think most of us will be equally apathetic if Justine trots off with the milkman leaving Ed with no right to the children.

My personal position on that hypothetical situation would be: 'meh'. Closely followed by, 'Oh well, he should have gotten his arse down to the registry office then, shouldn't he'. Then I will swiftly move on to pondering what exactly goes into tatertot casserole.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou Tue 09-Nov-10 16:13:00



DamselInDisgrace Tue 09-Nov-10 16:13:58

The truth about tatertots casserole is pretty horrible. You don't want to know.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou Tue 09-Nov-10 16:15:41

BedTooBigFryingPanTooWide - Well, if you start expecting the tax and benefits system to make SENSE, you will ever be disappointed.

BedTooBigFryingPanTooWide Tue 09-Nov-10 16:24:10

Coalition - yep, true, and have far bigger disappointments to fry.

Talking of frying, do tatertots fry up nicely?

DamselInDisgrace Tue 09-Nov-10 16:25:09

not as nicely as actual potatoes do.

Unrulysun Tue 09-Nov-10 17:07:46

Dr of what Damsel. Give us a hint at least?

Gay40 Tue 09-Nov-10 17:46:27

No Coalition, Civil Partnerships are NOT the same as marriage. They look like they are, but they aren't when you delve into it thoroughly. That's why I'm campaigning for full marriage rights before I bother my arse. And maybe that's why EM isn't bothering his arse either.

kitten30 Tue 09-Nov-10 18:07:25

I think this link may also show why some couples who are committed to equality might not wish to get married .. perhaps Ed just sees it as a nonsense

ColdComfortFarm Tue 09-Nov-10 18:38:38

In what way are civil partnerships not marriage with a different name then?
Ed will have rights to the kids, of course he will! He might have to make an application to the court but if they were married, divorced and couldn't agree residence/access they would also have to go to court.

kitten30 Tue 09-Nov-10 18:39:23

coldcomfort see the link above

kitten30 Tue 09-Nov-10 18:42:02

Ed will have rights to the kids, of course he will!

No he wont as he isnt on the birth certificate for one of them..

ColdComfortFarm Tue 09-Nov-10 18:47:55

ooh! I agree with marantha! I think it is vital that cohabitation is not the same, and I speak as someone who would have had a lot to gain by claiming half an ex-boyfriend's estate, but it would have been unfair.

ColdComfortFarm Tue 09-Nov-10 18:49:06

It will be a mere formality for him to claim parental responsibility, and if she tried to deny it, the courts would make her pay all the costs. So yes, he would have rights.

Gooftroop Tue 09-Nov-10 19:32:23

I just want him to get the skates on and get his backside down to the registry office. It's not like he has a lot else to do.

MmeLindt Tue 09-Nov-10 19:36:10

Erm. What are the differences in the day to day lives, and the legalities for the couple? All I can see from that link is that Civil Partnerships are free from the historical "baggage" that marriages schlep with them.

The New Labour of marriage then?

Surely the "institution" of marriage is different for everyone. Just because traditionally the husband was the boss and little wifey did what she was told, doesn't mean to say that nowadays the same is true.

I am married, but would say I live in a partnership where both are equal. I am no more downtrodden than the woman in that link.

It is all a bit ernest and contrived to me, sorry.

DamselInDisgrace Tue 09-Nov-10 19:38:29

Dr of nonsense, unruly! Obviously.

blueshoes Tue 09-Nov-10 19:47:13

I do think less of Ed for not having married the woman who has his children. It is a blot on his honour. Not that it makes any difference to his ability to do his job.

marantha Tue 09-Nov-10 19:57:04

MmeLindt I see no difference between civil partnerships and marriage, either.
From an objective legal/financial viewpoint, they appear the same to me and as I see marriage as being a legal/financial matter, this is all that matters.

All this 'baggage' I do not understand-it's not as if any offical bod comes around your house and demands to know if woman is playing housewife and man the 'provider', is it?

Nevertheless, perhaps civil partnerships for straight people MIGHT be a good idea as it would present what marriage is as a purely legal thing -perhaps that's not so bad?
It would cut to the chase, IYSWIM.

Nobody would be able to fob each other off with 'we don't need a piece of paper to love one another' or 'I am not religious' anymore.

Eleison Tue 09-Nov-10 20:23:43

I'm really muddled by the civil partnership / marriage difference too. Why can't a registry office marriage and a civil partnership be exactly the same? And why does the law seem to forbid a religious component to civil partership? (I think that is the situation isn't it? Quakers have a marriage service all ready and waiting for gay and lesbian couples, but the law forbids that as it stands, I think.)

seeker Tue 09-Nov-10 20:24:55

I do think it's bizarre that, despite evidence to the contrary, people continue to believe that it's men who don;t want to get married!

BarbaraMillicentRoberts Tue 09-Nov-10 20:25:49

Me too seeker! grin

TandB Tue 09-Nov-10 20:36:20

Seriously? People care that a politician has children without being married? I appear to have unexpectedly wandered into 1903.

I haven't seen one valid argument to back up the vague suggestion that it is "just not right".

My particular favourite is the old " showing your partner that you are committed to them". I have shown my partner that for 10 years. I have loved him, lived with him, shared good and bad times with him, I have given birth to his child, raised that child together with him. I think he is probably pretty sure of my committment to him. And if he isn't, I can tell him. I can say "I am committed to you". I don't feel the need to wave a piece of paper about for the purpose.

Why the judgey disapproval?

onceamai Tue 09-Nov-10 20:44:06

In the UK from a legal perspective I believe I am right in saying that a woman and her children have more rights and recourse to a man's assets if the couple are legally married.

Personally, I believe in marriage, but that is my view and the way I have chosen to live my life. On the other hand, if he were a Tory hmm, and on the other what about a politician being married and up to hanky panky elsewhere wink.

Oh dear is this about a politician being married or about a view in general. Being an MP is a job IMO and performance in the job is what matters.

SalFresco Tue 09-Nov-10 20:46:28

Bucharest - me too grin

spidookly Tue 09-Nov-10 20:49:55

I appear to have walked into whatever year it was that people thought claiming they'd walked into the past was an amusing and original way to discredit someone else's point of view.

blueshoes Tue 09-Nov-10 21:40:14

More women in unmarried coupledom want to be married than men. It makes sense as women usually get more protection and status with marriage than men. Hence men who hold out don't figure high in my book.

MoralDefective Tue 09-Nov-10 21:50:25

I didn't.

Rebeccash Tue 09-Nov-10 21:51:09


huddspur Tue 09-Nov-10 21:52:04

blueshoes- could the woman not make the proposal if she really wanted to get married.

MmeLindt Tue 09-Nov-10 22:02:20

Huh? It was a bit of fun, as some of the comments were rather old fashioned.

piscesmoon Tue 09-Nov-10 22:06:13

I don't know why people feel the need to stand in judgement-it is a private matter and entirely up to them.

bethelbeth Tue 09-Nov-10 22:06:14

I have no intentions of getting married but I live happily with DP, DD in our house with our car etc etc. We are no different to anyone else.

Our commitment is to each other, not to some old ritual.

blueshoes Tue 09-Nov-10 22:13:43

hudds, of course, and the man could refuse as well. Personally, I would not because it is important for me that a a man wants to marry me than to be led to it. Sets the tone for the rest of the relationship.

Lemonstartree Tue 09-Nov-10 22:38:42

IMHO YANBU. but hey I am a Tory middle aged square

spidookly Tue 09-Nov-10 23:00:58

Yeah, old stuff = bad

everything from 1800, 1903, 1920s, 1950s is just pure rubbish

only modren things are great.

Old people are stupid.

Up the new!

MmeLindt Tue 09-Nov-10 23:05:07

I have no earthly idea what you are talking about.

<suspicious look>

Have you stolen one of my joints?

MoralDefective Tue 09-Nov-10 23:09:35

Can i have one MmeLindt?...
Just run out of fags.grin

And winesad

expatinscotland Tue 09-Nov-10 23:11:20

Maybe she doesn't want to marry him. She's a toff with a lot of money who was in her late 30s. Maybe she needed a sperm donor who's easy to dominate.

He's a backstabbing, power-hungry megalomaniace who ran up against his own brother.

Who'd want to marry him?

MmeLindt Tue 09-Nov-10 23:13:26

<passes spliff>



expatinscotland Tue 09-Nov-10 23:14:55

Ooo, a spliff! Pass it here.

seeker Tue 09-Nov-10 23:31:01

Have you ever noticed how wonderfully amazing and beautiful that wardrobe is? Te grain on the wood is just, like, so amazing And the colour - it's just amazing. Oh, God, I love all of you!

MmeLindt Tue 09-Nov-10 23:40:09

<takes the spliff away from Seeker>

I love bananas. You know. I really like them. They are so yellow. And bendy. And bananalike.

<passes spliff to Expat>

MoralDefective Tue 09-Nov-10 23:44:31


MoralDefective Tue 09-Nov-10 23:46:13

<<<wishes she had some plonk left>>>

Desiderata Tue 09-Nov-10 23:52:23

I can't think of anything worse than being married.

I suspect that it's the only thing me and Mr Milleband will ever agree upon.

MoralDefective Wed 10-Nov-10 00:00:34

Or even Mr Miliband...

Desiderata Wed 10-Nov-10 00:09:25

Quite right, Moral.

You see how little I think of the man? My spelling is usually quite perfect ..

MoralDefective Wed 10-Nov-10 00:12:11

You know you love

Desiderata Wed 10-Nov-10 00:19:06

Nope! He's a cunt smile

Quattrocento Wed 10-Nov-10 00:26:49

I think Ed Milliband should marry Ed Balls. They could then happily spend the rest of their lives flipping the designation of their homes in the everlasting certainty that the voters will carry on voting for them.

Imagine the headlines

The Eds Flip Beds Again
Balls to Bigamy

But in their constituencies, I think it's fair to say that a donkey sporting a red rosette would get elected

Oh no, wait!

Two donkeys sporting red rosettes DID get elected.

<sue me now. Evil cackle. I have my defence ready>

Desiderata Wed 10-Nov-10 00:35:12

I won't sue, darling.

That was rather funny.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou Wed 10-Nov-10 10:40:48

Gay40 -What ARE the differences between Marriage and Civil partnership then?

marantha Wed 10-Nov-10 11:06:04

If there are no legal differences, I struggle to see what the fuss is about.
All this talk of 'baggage'- it's in people's minds.
Marriage is what it is- a legal contract.

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