to think £516 per MONTH for a six day week is exploitation?

[hesteria]

Found this on an expat forum today; here's the OP's post:

"Is anyone paying this [£516] for a live in maid inclusive of food, 5 1/2 days per week, very occasional baby sitting, private sector hols, own religious holidays, plus annual flight home and other legal requirements.

Yes or no answers appreciated, just trying to guage the market. TIA"

Most posters thought the OP was being ridiculously generous.

Full thread:
expatwoman.com/forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=122411&Page=1

[MaMoTTaT]

where does it say £516 ???

what would the "local" rate for a maid be? What is the cost of living like.

OF course in the UK a salary of £516 a month would be explotation - but they're not in the UK as and such surely salaries vary.


BUt then I've seen these threads before and I know it's going to go the "well as they're not earning local currency they should pay their maids more"

Which I don't buy.

[nomedoit]

Hesteria, it's very difficult to judge. I always overpay everyone. In Dubai I gather most maids send their money home so they probably actually pocket a fraction of that.

I just finished a book called the 'Lunatic Express' which talks in part about workers in Arab states. One person the writer met was a former doorman at a hotel in Saudi. When this man returned home to Indonesia he was very wealthy.

So it is all relative and really a comment on the terrible poverty in Asia that these jobs are so sought after. To have money to send home, a roof over your head and food is considered by maids to be a very good deal... Even with the risks of sexual exploitaion but that is another subject.

[MaMoTTaT]

I think there are some valid points on that thread about market rates, about what the Philipine Consultate recommends as a maids salary etc etc.

Yes there are a couple of contributors to the thread but most I think make valid points.


Oh and I meant to say that the £400 a month was my salary

[hesteria]

3000 AED (UAE dirhams) is 516 pounds at today's exchange rate.

It's in Dubai. I have a problem with this because the majority of posters are from Western countries, and therefore should know that it isn't right to pay someone so little.

(Bear in mind that if you read the thread, the OP is basically laughed at for suggesting she should pay so much.)

I don't buy the argument that "oh, it's in another country." Dubai has a higher cost of living than the UK. It's not as if it's a country where everyone lives more cheaply- quite the opposite.

[krissi]

It depends on the economy of the country this is happening in. In Shanghai, the average salary for a white collar worker is around 3000 yuan - around 300 pounds - and the majority of people get by on that.

[MaMoTTaT]

but if those figures that were quoted are correct (nurses starting on 40k a year - and having to pay for their own food and accommodation etc ) surely in the Dubai market 3000 per month would be extremely good for a maid who is being fed and has somewhere to live???

And is the Consulate advice wrong - or did they look at the figures and say actually in the local (not UK - they're not in the UK so converting it to ££'s is just as daft as converting it to Phili currecny were it's probably an absolute fortune) market it's a fair wage?

[nomedoit]

What I hate is that type of expat (or person here) who boats, "The going rate is x but you can get away with paying y."

As if there's something to be proud of in paying someone else less than a fair wage.

[MaMoTTaT]

nomedoit - I agree that's wrong.

If there's a "going rate" - then that should be the minimum that is paid - not trying to get away with paying less.

[flimflammery]

In Singapore, local (Singaporean) employers of 'foreign domestic workers' get very pissed off with guilt-ridden Western expats paying maids more than their going rate and (shock horror) spoiling them by giving them more than two days off per month. Maids are very happy to get a job with an expat family as they expect they will get treated better and get paid more. The problem comes when the expats relocate and the maid has to find another job, local families won't consider her, and she won't want to take a pay cut.

[frakkinnakkered]

I agree it depends where you are, the hours you're expected to work, the local rate etc. You don't do anyone else any favours paying well over the odds. There's a fair wage and then there's a fair local wage and the latter is what you should pay. The 'you can get away with' brigade piss me off no end.

Flight home, own religious hols, no living expenses - that's a fair few perks! Even if it's somewhere with a higher cost of living the live in workers there pay out for very little. Most of their money goes home and that's an absolute fortune where it's going.

Au pairs in the UK get less than that.

[vinvinoveritas]

no living expenses- includes food and accomodation- I think it's a low salary but it's actually fair when you consider the perks

[Kathyjelly]

A single person on the dole in the UK survives on less and they are supposed to work full time at job hunting.

[midsummerfae]

When I lived in Brighton 5 years ago my take home pay was about £800, out of that I had to pay £300 for a small room in a shared house, contribution towards bills, food etc... That was a decent enough office/ reception job comfortably above NMW.
London prices, Sussex wages :(
So bearing in mind this includes accommodation & basic living costs, this seems fair enough.
There's loads of people in the Uk who have to contend with relatively low wages and an extortionate cost of living.

[Alouiseg]

In Cyprus you can pay a maid in the region of £200 a month, you do cover all her living costs, pay her social insurance and house her. She has every Sunday off and sends nearly all the money home.

[Appletrees]

You can't possibly make the comparison or a judgement.

[JeezyPeeps]

I know a British girl doing live in childcare in this country who got paid less than that.

If I was single and had no living expenses then £516 spending money would do me very well!

[DomesticG0ddess]

Shouldn't you be posting this in the expat forum then? If you did that you might learn something about the situation? I don't see how you can judge unless you live there yourself, which I assume you don't otherwise you wouldn't be posting it in AIBU.

So, yes, YABU.

[LittleMissHissyFit]

In Egypt where I spent 3yrs, if a maid was to earn £516 a month, it'd be about LE 1000 a week. I know that this hard to comprehend perhaps sitting in leafy Hampshire for example, but it's a heck of a lot of money!

Middle ranking Police officers often earn less than this.

In Egypt what you spend in the Uk in £UK, was pretty much what you could get anything, produce-wise for.

Exceptions were meat and imported foodstuffs, and imported anything due to the 100% to 300% importation duty.

My DH paid his cousin to do bits and pieces for him, buy meat, parts for the car, pastrami, cheese mango juice etc, pay bill, to come with us to Carrefour to help out with the monthly shopping (we lived on 4th floor, no lift) He was paid LE 200 a week, a pittance in UK money, but he was well paid among his friends, and bearing in mind the poor chap could barely see, his eyesight was so weak, and he walks with a pronounced limp due to a man hole accident years ago, believe me, he was as happy as Larry! Literally no-one would have paid Do-do anything, let alone approaching that amount of money!

Other than Do-do, we didn't employ anyone regularly, it's just too blooming stressful having to hide everything of value, keep an eye on them that they don't just swill water everywhere. I had one woman once who came to cook while I was PG, her daughter got caught rooting around my room, they helped themselves to my perfume, and after 3 visits, they were told not to come back.

I do have a friend who has a great girl that works for her, her DC education is paid for, all her medical stuff, drugs etc, and a good wage. But my friend is lovely, one in a million. Most of the expats I knew over there fell into the 'when in rome' theory and abuse the hell out of their 'staff' and enjoy every second of it.

This is one of the gazillion reasons I wouldn't set foot in that place till Hell cools considerably...

Things cost less in countries with no national infrastructure, standard of living is very different at the pole opposites of ME society, but just because you can't survive on £516 a month here doesn't mean that it's not a heck of a lot of money to someone else and in another country.

It's kinda why so much crap is manufactured in China. There some people work only for food! Can't get much cheaper than that, and it keeps the costs down to Western importers doesn't it.

Hysteria, honestly, I know you mean well, and you do really have a good heart, but unless you actually live in these places you really can't judge.

[bedubabe]

Ready for a slating here but I pay my maid less than that (and I know I pay over the going rate!).

Not in Dubai but nearby.

Minimum legal rate set is 400USD a month with one day off a week.

Living expenses might be similar to the UK but you've got to take account that pretty much all living expenses are covered by the employer (food, lodging, utilities, visa costs, annual/biannual flights home). All remaining for the maid to pay for is the money she sends home (i.e. savings) and clothing/toiletries (some people provide uniforms and toiletries) as well as expenses on her day off.

Quite frankly I don't know many people back home with that level of disposable income (taking into account education and experience).

You also should take into account that (for example) an office cleaner here would get approx GBP125 a month (with accomodation in a dormitry, transport, uniform and meals provided).

The bigger issue is not pay but the working hours and the way some maids are treated. That's a whole different ballpark.

[LittleMissHissyFit]

meant to say..

step away from the expat fora....

step away from the expat fora....

Hell hath no flaming like an expat forum flaming...

I still smell of singed hair from my tussles with the competitive converts and their who can be nastiest to the christians threads... I kid you not!!

[chandellina]

YABU. you are basically saying that paying someone £516/month for this work anywhere in the world is exploitation, while in some countries that could be a year's wage for some people. obviously you need to take into consideration the local factors.

[LadyBiscuit]

Why is it that people manage perfectly well in the first world without live in maids and yet when those same people move to the Middle/Far East/Africa, they suddenly need one.

How do your houses get so dirty?

[bedubabe]

Oh and I've also worked a six-day week for GBP300 a month!

I didn't feel exploited. I was on a fortune compared to local staff.

It really does depend on which country you're in.

[hesteria]

Fair enough. I thought I wasn't being unreasonable, but nobody else seems to be that shocked, so maybe I should revisit my opinions.

I moved to the UK from Dubai a year ago, having lived there for years. I find the UK cheaper, in terms of cost of living, than Dubai. I was paid pretty much the same salary as here, my rent was the same as in London, and food was much more expensive. I don't think people should make the mistake of thinking that we're talking about Thailand, for example, or that low salaries are "normal" there. The fact is if you're white and expat you have the same salary as at home. (The reason nurses are paid so little is because they come from non-Western countries.)

I paid my part time cleaner the European minimum wage per hour. I got shouted at for that by other expats who said I was skewing the market.

[bedubabe]

I don't need a maid but I have one for two reasons:

1. I can afford one. Why on earth would I not pay someone to do my housework for me (freeing up time for me to spend with my family) when I can afford to do so? Why on earth wouldn't I have ontap babysitting so I can pop out in the evening whilst my child's asleep without preplanning it?
   
   I don't believe it lessens someone else to do my cleaning for me. I would send my finances out to an accountant, why not my cleaning to a maid? I'm not exploiting my maid. She knew the salary and conditions when I offered her the job and she was free to take it or find something else.
   
   
2. Both me and my husband work full time. There are no flexible working hours options here. Having a maid at home allows me to have my son in nursery only part-time (personal choice but I believe he is too young for full-time nursery) and also means we have someone at home if my son gets sent home from nursery with a minor illness. Plenty of working mums know the nightmare of having to cover for their child's sicknesses. Having a maid is a way out.