about maintenance / nursery fees

[timehealsall]

Hello - I'm a separated Dad, sorry know this is primarily for Mums but looking for a female perspective and my female friends tend to be slightly biased!

Going to have give background I think, but will try to summarise.

Ex wife split with me 18 months ago, I stepped over lines into verbally abusive and controlling territory too often. Totally understandable, wasn't all bad, but too much. Fortunately was never like this with DS and now totally committed to making sure I never do (counselling, ADs, etc).

After period in shared house so could help with mortgage as house was being sold now rent my own place with a bedroom for me and a bedroom for DS. We agreed this was kind of minimum required for DS to have suitable environment.

I pay CSA maintenance, very happy to do this, though CSA can be feck wits, the principle of having maintenance decided and sorted by 3rd party works for both of us.

My work is flexible and I can fit work round my life rather than vice versa. So I work from home Mondays and spend the day with DS, working when he's asleep. I also look after him every other weekend. I buy his clothes, food, nappies, etc for when he's with me. For this nursery stage we've agreed that the part of maintenance which is about me helping put a roof over his head is not relevant for us right now, but nursery costs very much are.

So here is the issue. At the moment DS is at nursery 4 days a week as ex works full time and doesn't have such good working arrangements. She does however earn more than me and now she's renting too is pretty comfortable financially.

At the moment my maintenance payment covers half the cost of 3 days a week at nursery and a little more - though not fully 4 days.

However I could look after him for another day a week to help with the nursery costs - work are fully on board and supportive.

Understandably ex feels a bit unnerved by the idea of me looking after DS 2 days a week though - it does mean I would have significantly more quality time with him than she can. It's a complex area, and like I said it is understandable, if situation were reversed I guess I'd be a bit upset too, but I think it is different for Dads and I don't think I'd request her not too.

Anyway we've talked about it and I've explained that I'm not trying to write her out and that I always, always talk to DS about what a great Mummy she is and how lucky he is (she is, he is!) I've also asked whether maybe she could cut down to 4 days a week at work herself and then have him for an extra day herself - not sure on how that went, think it might have gone down a bit "here he goes with his solutions, fed up with that".

Anyway at this time none of this has been enough to counter the uncomfortable feelings she has so I've dropped the extra day idea.

The problem is that she has asked at times if I can cover the shortfall on nursery costs for 4 days a week. To put this in context if I paid the extra I would then be surviving on about £270 a month for DS, food, petrol, saving, life, etc.

My position at the moment is to say sorry but if there's an alternative I don't feel morally obliged to meet the shortfall and actually that's going to make life a struggle for me when it doesn't have to be that bad.

Is this being unreasonable? Should I suck it up and pay based on the fact that the lions share of responsibility for us being split up is mine? Like I said I'd be really interested in a Mum's perspective here!

[HecateQueenOfWitches]

I think you should pay 50/50 what it takes to raise a child.

You need to keep everything to do with your son seperate from your relationship and % of fault because that's not relevant to the issue of care. imo anyway. No doubt you will have lots of different opinions.

[silverfrog]

in principle I agree with Hecate - 50/50 on costs.

but, I don't see why you should be asked to pay more for nursery if you are willing to have your ds for that day instead.

if there was no other choice, and your ds had to attend nursery for 4 days, then yes, costs for 4 days should be split.

but since you can have him for the extra day (assuming this would be long term, until he went to school, or that you would start paying extra if you needed to change this) then I can't see the sense in forcing you to pay for a day at nursery that you do not need.

you should not ever be required to pay anyting on the basis that the major part of the split was down to you.that is now in the past.

you need to concentrate on working out how things will work for the future.

[duchesse]

As long as you are reliable, kind and decent parent to your son I do not see why you should not look after him more days a week and pay less nursery.

HOWEVER:

I can see why she wouldn't want this. You say that you slipped into controlling with her. Ime men very rarely change from this character trait, and she probably feels this too. By doing this, looking after your son more days per week, you would begin to have more say in her life than she is comfortable with at the moment. If you were sick, or decided to behave like an arsehole and tell her you couldn't have him, at very short notice, she would end up in a situation where you were controlling her ability to organise her own work patterns.

I think your only option at the moment, bearing in mind what has passed between you, is to keep finding the money for nursery fees. Earn more money if you can, and try to see it from her point of view. She still has to do the lion's share of the parenting as well as work full time. It's a very hard job, without having the added uncertainty of whether you're going to try to make life more difficult for her at any time. At least this way she knows where she is with everything.

Sorry. That's probably not what you wanted to hear.

[JodiesMummy]

She earns more so the nursery costs should be proportionate.

And you are offering her an alternative so she cant say you are putting her in a corner.

You sound like a good dad who is doing his share.

I totally get why she is feeling down about you having more free time with DS than you, but she is financially cutting her nose off to spite her face so let her pick up the tab.

[omnishambles]

When ex and I split up I would never have dreamt to ask him for half the nursery fees - it was my expense - as it was I had so little income that tax credits paid for it anyway - isnt this the case? If shes low enough to need help with it then she'll get it and if not then shes got enough to pay.

I was obv very naive but I agree with silverfrog - if the dc is at nursery for 4 days a week then there is a childcare issue to resolve - she has chosen to pay for the nursery and the other partner may well choose to look after the dc himself - how bizarre that she was rather the child in a nursery then with dad anyway.

[ChippingIn]

Although I essentially agree with Hecate, that parents should pay 50%/50%, I don't believe it's as easy to work out as that and also, they would have to agree on what needs to be paid for, which in this case would cause a problem anyway.

She should try you having him 2 days a week and see how it goes, if she doesn't even want to try that, then she needs to work out how to pay for it.

If she is working full time and you are paying nearly all of the nursery costs, why can't she afford it? I don't understand?

[KaraStarbuckThrace]

'if you do have him that 4th day though i'd check if it effects your csa payments.'

Cycnical me thinks that might be another reason why your XW doesn't want you to have your DS on that 4th day.

I think it is perfectably reasonable what you have requested, and since you have offered her that option I don't think that you should be obliged to pay for the 4th nursery day, as it is there to allow her to go to work, not you, as you have already indicated you don't need childcare on that day.

[mamatomany]

You would have more time with the child than her ? It seems the nursery has the most time at the moment, surely she would be happier for her child to be with it's parent than lining the nurseries pocket.
I am assuming you weren't abusive if which case she hasn't a leg to stand on and you shouldn't be tip toeing around her.

[TheLifeOfRiley]

"I stepped over lines into verbally abusive and controlling territory too often"

This is why your ex feels uncomfortable relying on you for a 2nd day's childcare instead of using the nursery and TBH I can completely understand why. However in your ex's position I wouldn't have even asked you about this, I would have just put him in the nursery and stumped up the fees.

Having a similar relationship scenaario myself with a partner that was verbally abusive and controlling I think that there will be more to this if we were hearing your ex's POV. Hearing the perfectly reasonable stories my ex comes out with that are completely untrue I felt uneasy about you and sympathetic towards your son's mother.

[NicknameTaken]

I think if you can have your DS for the extra day, I don't see why you should have pay for the extra day at nursery. And I say that as someone with a controlling and verbally abusive ex myself. He has our DD Mon and Fri during the day, and whether he has her or whether she is in nursery (varies according to his work arrangements) is up to him. If your ex is really uncomfortable with that, then she can pay.

[taintedpaint]

Tbh, I can see both sides of this. You past behaviour is clearly making it difficult for your ex to trust you. This is understandable (but well done for getting help and admitting what you did). She may well feel better having your DS in a nursery than relying on you to stick to this arrangement. That said, I see the merits of you having him for that day, for reasons you have already detailed.

My advice would be to discuss with your ex the possibility of you doing the extra day on a trial basis (say for two months, something like that) to see how it works out for both of you. Tell her you won't look at reducing the maintainance payments during this time (possibly a concern of hers) and you will both sit and discuss how it's going for you after the trial period. If either of you have concerns about the arrangement or it's not working out for you, you can air that with each other.

[Mahraih]

Hmm.

I can also see both sides. You sound very rational, calm and understanding here but as you mention (very honestly, kudos) have not been that way in the past. She may be worried about those control issues coming back, and wants to avoid that.

HOWEVER asking you to pay for more than your share, when you are willing to have DS and have a good environment for him, is unfair.

taintedpaint had a good suggestion: a clear trial period to see how it goes, and if it doesn't work out, have a review.

[prettyfly1]

I do believe there is slightly more to this then meets the eye but well done for going to councelling and if your ex feels you are safe enough to have the child unsupervised at all then you are safe enough to have two days - I think its a bit shocking to be honest that we still "ration" ex partners access in that way. You either arent safe and therefore shouldnt be alone with him or are and she wants to be the significant parent which is HER being controlling.

[curlymama]

I don't think that you should have to pay for the extra nursery day if you are willing to look after your own child. Your ex is being unreasonable, possibly because she wants to be a igger influence in your dc's life than you are, and maybe she feels guilty already for being at work so much of the time. That's no excuse though, she should be putting her child before herself, and imo, it's got to be better for your ds to be with you than in nursery.

[timehealsall]

Hey everybody thanks for ALL views and insight - it was exactly what I was after and really does help me understand more where she might be coming from.

So on the nursery fees front I think I will hold firm for now but make sure I don't do this in a tit for tat manner.

Before I dropped the 2 day idea I did ask for a possible trial but she wasn't keen. I'll see how it goes but may mention again sometime, though difficult as don't want to "push" in controlling way!!!

And it certainly seems strange to me that she'd rather DS was in nursery than with his Dad - I kind of asked her about that in as gentle way as I could, and she did say she didn't have a problem with me as a father, just as a husband - but I didn't really get much of an actual answer so again don't want to "push".

As for whether worry about controlling tendencies are the real issue here I think that could be the case. When I first started suggesting it my ex did admit she was worried I'd start wanting to wriggle out of maintenance. I don't as it happens, though would like to explore "joint residency" as a possible legal solution BUT not in a say that it affects our agreed financial arrangements or to claim her benefits! That, however, a whole different post.

The one thing I will say is that since we split I have never, ever changed agreed child care arrangements at short notice - the only few changes have been requested months in advance. Plus on quite a few occasions I've actually changed my own plans to fit round her work / personal needs at short notice - it's not difficult for me with such good work flexibility. I hope if she is worried I'll flake out on this and leave her in trouble that keeping on doing this will help show I am reliable.

Finally as to whether men with control
issues can ever change? I hope so duchesse and lifeofriley, but I can understand why people would be sceptical, especially if they have experienced similar. I might be more on top of it now with the help, but it will take vigilence and hard work for a long time to truly change those patterns. And that is why I think it is actually relevant to mention the background to the split - it is important that I keep remembering how I made my ex feel when I communicate with her now - that damage to her trust in me isn't going to disappear anytime soon and that's fair.

[ChippingIn]

Honestly, you sound too good to be real. I really do hope, that you are a genuine bloke who has learnt from his mistakes and who is working as hard as you appear to be to change and to do the best by your son and his Mum. If you are real and this is all true, I hope that she soon sees that and you can, at least, have joint residency.

Hang around - you might enjoy it here - it's for Dad's too!

[Chubbychops17]

I believe you should contribute to 3 days of nursery as you have offered an alternative to the 4th day