Mumsnet Talk

I am at my wits end.

We've only been up 45 minutes ffs.

DD is 6 and a half.

She has hurt the kitten and been scratched for her trouble and then hit me when I told her she shouldn't have been picking her up (common theme).

Then my Mum phoned for two minutes to ask a favour and while I was on the phone she pinched DS arm hard and wouldn't let go, then thumped him on the arm and then pulled his hair, hard. He was screaming in terror and pain, I had to drop the phone and drag her off him. The reason being because he was switching leads on the Playstation and she took umbrage.

Last night she screamed and shouted and hit DS because I asked her to put her pjs on.

On Weds I had a friend over with her two DSes, DD hit the four year old over the head with a plastic golf club because he touched something of hers. She showed no remorse, and just matter of factly told me what she'd done when I challenged her (I was in the next room). this poor child was hurt and upset and DD just didn't care. She refused to apologise and stuck her fingers in her ears.

On Tuesday, I had taken the back seats out (7 seater) so they were sitting in the middle row next to each other (had a toddler mindee too) and she spent the whole journey to town pulling DS's hair and thumping him.

I don't know what to do. She's the same with everybody but worse with DS who has often done nothing (although he does fight back sometimes). She is foul. She screams, shouts, spits and hits, argues and terrorises. She's rude and obnoxious and aggressive.

And then as soon as she starts she stops and is the sweetest, most loving child. She is like Jekyll and Hyde and the slightest thing sets her off, in fact often we are left baffled as to what HAS set her off.

There are sanctions, obviously, although often this leads to more disgusting behaviour and a whole day of drama. So often I will put her upstairs/outside/away for a few minutes and then move on from the episode, because otherwise it can go on for hours and hours.

She is also very wilful, and will do something right in front of you that you are telling her not to, she physically fights to do this too, I have been actually worried for the kitten's life as I've prised DD's tightening grip from her, she does this with the little ones i childmind too, picks them up (or tries to) and is just 'at' them all the time despite everything.

I've just now had to physically restrain her from dragging the kitten by its front paws out of its bed.

I don't know what to do. She seems to have no empathy or even care that she's hurting people/animals and it is, frankly, starting to worry the shit out of me.

Please help.

She sees no aggression from us, by the way. We don't argue, never have. But until she was two I lived with her father who was an aggressive nasty tempered bully. DS was three when we left there and seems unaffected, he is a sweet, sensitive, placid soul for the most part (obviously he has his moments, like all children).

There just seem to be more bad days than good with DD at the moment and I can't seem to help her.

What is she like at school?

Similar, in as much as she is wilful and can be rude, but I dont; think she's violent in the same way.

She had a very ineffectual teacher last year who was a complete sap, brilliant with the children who do okay but completely pants at dealing with any issues (she was a total wet rag over my friends DD's bullying issues teh year before). Think Miss Honey from Matilda.

Her teacher described her as 'knowing her own mind' as she used to refuse to do work and be kept in over breaktime regularly (this had ZERO effect, she would just shrug and say, 'I don't care'. The teacher thought it was endearing ). DD is very angelic looking and can be such a sweetheart that I think she got away with bloody murder, tbh.

Her teacher this year (they go back Monday) is much more experienced and I have high hopes that it will be a better year.

I was wondering if it was possible to speak to the school counsellor about your daughter's behaviour. She sounds quite distressed and angry and is acting out fiercely... Perhaps they may have some advice, support to offer, coping strategies? And have her teachers noticed any of this anti-social behaviour or is it only being displayed at home?
You poor thing, it must be very upsetting. But I know you are also very concerned for your daughter and I agree this has to be taken seriously and that you need to find a way to help her [and your whole family!]

Its just horrid. I feel like I've failed her.

My Mum makes comments that I don't give her enough attention, or that she's just wound up about the wedding/the house move/Christmas/the holiday/whatever event is happening right now. Or that it's because I'm childminding.

So that really helps.

Tbh, it probably IS because I'm childminding, she has been progressively worse over the last year. But what can I do? I can't give up work or we'll starve ffs.

I wish I could devote every minute of every day to her, but with another child, a full time job and a house to run, unfortunately there are times that she just has to get on with it. And often, she'll kcik off when I AM devoting time to her, so that blows that theory out of the water somewhat.

I'd consider rehoming the kitten tbh. It's not kind to the animal to subject it to this treatment, it may end up hurting someone or running away; and it might be a lesson for DD. Not as punishment, but as a natural consequence of her actions. A responsible pet owner will not let the animal carry on being ill treated, and a responsible parent will not leave their child in the likely position of being injured. (My cat opened up the length of my finger the other week when I was trying to give him some medication, so they really can give you a nasty scratch.)

It is a great shame if DS is attached to the kitten, as he's done nothing wrong, but he surely wouldn't want an animal he cares about to be hurt. Anyway if it gets too nervous it may end up scratching other family members.

I'm not getting rid of the kitten. She deals with it pretty well, and DD'll be back at school next week. I watch DD like a hawk around her, which is why we're having such battles as she tries to pick her up and I tell her not to ad infinitum.

She's often happy to be picked up and carted around, it's just that DD will try to hold on to her when she tries to jump down, or pick her up when she's asleep, or sometimes try to drag her around by her paws, and gets a meow and a warning scratch for it. I never leave her alone with her, and the kitten is lovely, not nervous or aggressive at all.

I know that all sounds a bit defensive but I can't contemplate giving her away. We have discussed it as an option but it breaks my heart. We have warned DD that that will be a consequence though.

I agree with Annie, my first step would be to rehome the kitten.

Also, difficult as it will be, I would speak to the parents of your mindees so that they are aware of the situation. Their children shouldn't really be exposed to this.

I know it sounds obvious, and I'm sure you have done this, but have you sat her down and asked her about her behaviour? I wonder if some kind of system whereby she can tell you what is wrong instead of getting cross might work.
The only things I can think of right now are a "trouble box" where she writes down anything that annoys her and at the end of the day you can both calmly discuss things, or if she can't write very well yet, perhaps a kind of video or tape diary with this idea behind it? So, if she's getting wound up, you send her upstairs to record her thoughts. Then, before the bedtime routine, you watch/listen together (with no-one else around) and talk about what happened during the day.

Clearly she must not get away with this type of behaviour, so you must be consistent with your sanctions. It would be an idea to spend some time thinking about what might make her think. If she isn't affected by being sent to her room, could you impose a toy confiscation scheme, where you giver her a toy back when she shows good behaviour?

That's the other thing, it is really important to reward good behaviour. Supernanny as it may sound, do you have a sticker chart or anything? Could be worth incorporating both stickers and rewards into the same chart as sanctions.

Good luck, it sounds really difficult.

It could be worth ringing CAMHS for an assessment, to see if an educational psychologist or play therapist might be able to help.

Have to say I would rehome the kitten. I can understand the thought of this is tough but it's really not fair that the kitten keeps getting hurt or harassed (sorry if that's hard to hear)

I feel awful saying it as I don't want you to feel worse than you do but it's not right that your mindees have to witness her behaviour

You concern is obvious and it's great that you're not ignoring your instincts, her behaviour does sound extreme and I would think about going to your GP maybe to discuss it? Any help you can get will be so worth it.

All my parents know about her. She has never hurt any of the mindees, she just tries to pick them up, cuddle them, basically treats them (ditto the cat) like a dolly that she can just cart around.

It's me that she'll hit when I pull her away or tell her not to. And she'll hit her brother. She's not cruel to the cat or the mindees, i think you have misunderstood, or I've been unclear. She just doesn't seem to care when I tell her that she will end up hurting them by cuddling them etc. And she has sometimes clung on when I've prised her away which is obviously horrid.

We have done to death the whole wheel of approaches. Time outs, confiscating treats/toys, sticker charts, diaries, positive reinforcement, I've read and put into action The Explosive Child book. none of it changes anything.

Ok, have you sought any professional advice?

GP would probably be first step, or CAMHS.

Are there different times of day that set her off, or when she is worse?

What I mean is - does whatever irritant that makes her behave badly sometimes happen, and she doesn't behave badly?

My DS1 doesn't lash out physically but can be incredibly awful with words, and a lot of the time it's linked to low blood sugar.

eg yesterday he was in a foul mood being absolutely poisonous all the way home. Part of his ranting revealed that he hadn't eaten any of his lunch. I kept saying that he was going to have to eat it as soon as he got in but he just kept on and on at me, totally unreasonable. Cut a long story short, he DID eat it and as soon as he did it was "Oh Mummy, can I . . ." in a totally normal voice. I thought "ahh, there you are! I knew you were in there somewhere!"

I was going to take her to teh GP a while back and then things got a bit better.

I know that it seems worse because it's the end of the holidays, and we've had a run of about a week where it's been daily. I don;'t want to make things worse for her by involving outside help.

My sister was a similar child and we were carted round professionals for years, she was labelled as a problem child and it's really affected her into adulthood. i don't want DD to feel like that.

Also, does she see her father? There's no possibility that she might still be seeing bad things form him is there? Or might she remember, do you think? Was he abusive towards the children, or just you?

Could you ask your sister what she remembers about her childhood and see if she can shed any light. She might be able with the passage of years to think of what might have helped her.

How is your sister now? Has she changed at all as an adult? Does she relate to your DD?

Obviously, not the most helpful thing to self-diagnose, but there are problems that can run in the family, for example bi-polar, ASD. I'm not suggesting this is the problem, by the way, but it might be worth looking to your sister for suggestions.

Children don't get labelled a problem these days. So much has changed over recent years.

Think of it like this, if you could get her help to manage her anger, would you not grab it with both hands?

Of course you would. Visit your GP or speak to CAMHS

No contact with my ex at all.

He wasn't really abusive to them, but he was a horrid bully and used to wind them up to the point of tears for fun.

Dsis says what would have helped her was being left alone and not diagnosed at every opportunity. Hmm.

I think I will speak to the GP on my own.

Was just about to post a similar thing to you! Mine DS is 13 now and i've just had a crap morning too. Tbh, most mornings are like this.... I'm probably not going to be helpful when I say this but some kids are just like this/that. Others will point the finger at the parents and to a degree it's true but walk a day in my shoes....

Dsis still has trouble controlling her emotions, she is highly strung and has tantrums, and attempted suicide twice before being sectioned in her teens. However, she is happily married, has a lovely DD and a good career etc.

Good idea Reality and honestly, it's not like it was years ago when all issues were seen as a 'problem'

Thanks Gibbon. And everybody.
Limara, have a <squeeze> in solidarity, mate.

What diagnoses did they rule out for your sister, out of interest?

I can recommend the 123 Magic Book by Tom Phelan - the strategies are easy to understand and simple to implement and it worked on my eldest who has adhd. It's not full of psychobabble and looks at situations from a realistic, parental perspective such as what to do in a supermarket.

It's far better than Toddler Taming and is for children aged 2-12.

You've warned DD that the kitten being given away is a consequence of her bad behaviour but you've just said you'll never give it away??

Sorry, just picked up on that point cos it seemed so inconsistent. I'm the queen of inconsistencies in our family and I know that you have to be consistent and follow through your threats to have any effect on a child's behaviour.