ear piercing for young children

(298 Posts)
fumanchu Wed 01-Sep-10 08:38:57

I was disturbed to overhear in Claire's Accessories yesterday a mum trying to persaude her obviously distressed child to have her ear(s) pierced, saying it wouldn't hurt. The child was about 6 I think. I wasn't sure if the child had had one done and refused the next, she was crying. The shop staff just stood by. I was tempted to say something but didn't. What do you think? and shouldn't shops have some kind of age policy? personally I think its fine for say 13 yr olds and up and I know Italians for example often have babies' ears pierced but i was very unhappy about the coercion.

ForzaDelDestino Wed 01-Sep-10 08:41:36

It would be hugely rude to go <yawn> wouldn't it?

megonthemoon Wed 01-Sep-10 08:43:19

I personally think later is better,maybe because I wasn't allowed until I was 12 . But I think the situation you saw would completely depend on whether a) mum was trying to persuade her dd to have them done and dd didn't want it or b) dd had asked and was willing, and had one done and then mum was trying to persuade her to get the other done because she was having a tantrum at that point. The first is coercion I'd be uncomfortable witnessing whereas the second could just be about a mum trying to persuade her dd to finish something she'd asked for and got part way through - one earring would look pretty daft after all!

curlymama Wed 01-Sep-10 08:47:35

My Mum talked me into having my ears pierced when I was about that age, I like getting to wind her up now about her own form of child abuse! It didn't do me any harm, even though I remember really not wanting to have it done. I was glad when all my friends were trying to persuade their parents though, and I'd already been done. I think I rebelled by ending up with three holes in each ear by the time I was 15, as was the fashion then!

So I guess overall I don't think parents should do this, it kind of cheats them out of a rite of passage when they get to being teenagers, apart from the fact that imo it just looks cheap on young children. But the girl in your story will be fine, and you never know, maybe she had really wanted it done before she got into the shop and realised it hurt!

EccentricaGallumbits Wed 01-Sep-10 08:56:02

f it was in claires they would have done both at the same time so she wouldn't get a chance to have one done then refuse the second.

to save arguments and mums having to persuade girls to get it done maybe should be done before the child can refuse.

Jacanne Wed 01-Sep-10 09:13:46

My 7 year old dd has just had hers done at Claires (btw she talked me into it, nagged incessantly etc) and I can confirm that they do both ears at exactly the same time and, judging by dd's reaction, it didn't hurt that much.

MIL doesn't approve of having children's ears pierced and told me that I "couldn't" have dd's done which irritated me. But she actually told dd that it would "really really hurt" in an effort to change her mind - which I think is just mean.

usualsuspect Wed 01-Sep-10 09:19:53

Anyone said it looks common yet

LetThereBeRock Wed 01-Sep-10 09:22:09

'to save arguments and mums having to persuade girls to get it done maybe should be done before the child can refuse'

Or,even better,perhaps we could allow the child to choose for themselves,and not have it forced on them.

My DD looks dead common, she not only has pierced earsshock she wears jeggings. Her choice, I wouldn't wear them but they look lovely on her bony arse slender frame.

usualsuspect Wed 01-Sep-10 09:30:00

I was joking wink

ledkr Wed 01-Sep-10 09:34:25

I wanted dd to wait until senior school but she had an infected tooth root which needed removing so I told her if she had it done she could have her ears pierced which she wanted for ages. I thought she wouldn't go thru with either but she did! she was 8. only wears tiny ones tho. I noticed a few girls in her class have been rolling skirts over to make them shorter! shame eh?

BubbaAndBump Wed 01-Sep-10 09:34:53

well said LetThereBeRock - I can't beleive anyone would insist on getting their child's ears pierced. One thing if the child desperately wants it (as I did, but aged 12 and had to wait till I was 14 or something - showing my age blush), but another thing forcing a child to have it done.

weegiemum Wed 01-Sep-10 09:40:19

My dd1 had it done at the start of the summer hols this year (so they could be removed for gym when she went back) and she is 10. Had it done in Claire's where they did both at the same moment. I was very impressed. I suspect that if the staff were "just stood by" it was because they ere trying very hard not to judge!

EccentricaGallumbits Wed 01-Sep-10 10:11:19

But young children don't choose to go to school or to wear ugly clarks shoes - both of which can equally scar for life.

charley24 Wed 01-Sep-10 10:12:04

My Daughter had hers done at the begging of the holidays, she is 10 and I always said 10 was fine as she is old enough to choose. She was out in 5 mins and said it didn't hurt just stung for a second. She has been great cleaning every day and had no problems.

My 6 year old asked and I said no, she would have to be 10 also. At 6 I think she would be fiddling with them and there is the risk of infection.

I think whatever parents choose it's up to them but I HATE babies with earrings, it's horrid ! They can't choose !

BubbaAndBump Wed 01-Sep-10 10:15:47

You cannot possibly be comparing piercing ears to going to school eccentrica!?

ShowOfHands Wed 01-Sep-10 10:16:12

Class

Culture

Circumcision

Chav

Common

Roll up, roll up, it's crap bingo.

I'm having the Cs.

DilysPrice Wed 01-Sep-10 10:23:13

I was discussing this with a workmate from India recently, of course her DD had it done very young - I managed, I think, to find an acceptable way to say "yes of course it's fine for your family because it's your culture, but I'm white middle class, and it's not my culture at all, and DD will be waiting until secondary school"
Unfortunately she then informed me that it has long-term health benefits because of the way the pressure points in the ears improve energy flow, and there's not much I could say to that apart from trying to suppress my hmm.

ShadeofViolet Wed 01-Sep-10 10:29:10

I was scarred for life by my ugly Clarks shoes! All I wanted was a pair with a key in the heel. Instead I got the ugliest shoes ever in the world, and ther were bright red

I also had my ears pierced at 2, didnt bother me in the slightest. Infact I had them done again at 7.

EccentricaGallumbits Wed 01-Sep-10 10:33:38

i feel much better about small painless holes in my earlobes than the 10 years of compulsory institutional bullying I was forced to do.

and my clarks shoes were not only ugly, they were brown.

sanielle Wed 01-Sep-10 10:36:39

I don't like people piercing children's ears but it is their choice.

Lying and saying it won't hurt however is totally wrong though.

I know you were usualsuspect. I've been here long enough now to recognise show of hands list for what it is.

prozacfairy Wed 01-Sep-10 10:42:54

Different strokes for different folks and all that but I'd rather wait til DD asks me to have her ears pierced. Then we'll negoiate the terms grin

Few years back when I was in claires with my little sister there was a gil aged about 2 sitting on the stool about to have her ears pierced but the shop assistant refused to do it in the end because the little girl was hysterical. Even though "mummy" tried to soothe her DC and offered to pay double the price hmm Neither the child or the girl with the piercing gun was playing ball.

electra Wed 01-Sep-10 10:46:58

I don't understand this attitude of people thinking they have the right to comment on the parenting choices of others.

My children have pierced ears, the youngest had hers done recently - she's under 2. I know some people don't agree with it and that's their choice but they have no right to cast judgment on me. I am not a 'chav' (though I dislike the term anyway). My reasons are my own and I don't care what other people think. I've noticed that this is a very contentious issue in the UK (where in many other countries it isn't) and I personally think there are more pressing things to be concerned about.

OTTMummA Wed 01-Sep-10 11:03:56

LMAO!
Dylisprice! I think i would of just stood there in silence,,, maybe after a min i would of asked her to repeat what she just said, i mean WTF?!

smallisbeautiful Wed 01-Sep-10 11:13:12

sorry but babies with their ears pierced look like gypsys - flame me!!! grin

ShadeofViolet Wed 01-Sep-10 11:21:46

You will be flamed more for not being able to spell Gypsies

massivemammaries Wed 01-Sep-10 11:31:05

People who pierce their childrens' ears should have a stake driven through their hearts. It amounts to child abuse in my opinion and should be outlawed

Just before being staked through the heart, they should have to have a sausage roll enema. Ice cold. Behave massive, other peoples choices aren't yours to judge. Unless you are joking of course. Irony/sarcasm meter is failing at the moment.

varicoseveined Wed 01-Sep-10 11:37:05

Had my ears pierced when I was 5. Didn't hurt at all [shrug]

Laska Wed 01-Sep-10 11:41:00

It doesn't bother me especially, but I am at a bit of a loss to understand quite why anyone would want to do this to a young kid (e.g. under 6) and especially to babies and toddlers. These perfect little babies with lovely little ears never make me think, now 'if there were some gold flowers pinned through those ears (s)he'd be just perfect' confused

giveitago Wed 01-Sep-10 11:46:25

I had mine done when I was about 3 I think. Obviously my dm's choice not mine.

She's asian - so why is OK for asians when the mum decides and not for anyone else? I'm also English and from a middle class family and my father was also pleased that we'd got the ear piercing out the way when I was young.

I'm glad I had them done then as I'd be scared to do it when older.

massivemammaries Wed 01-Sep-10 11:46:31

@Kreecher ..... sausage roll enema LMFAO

giveitago Wed 01-Sep-10 11:52:21

massive - why is it child abuse?

I see what you mean that it's inflicting a hole the ear of a child - but the vast majority of girls want their ears pierced when they are older so you might as well get it out the way when they are little?

I'm assuming these kids have little studs and not great big hoops that get the way of playing?

massivemammaries Wed 01-Sep-10 11:58:39

@ Giveitago, when they are adults they can choose can't they?

I guess by your logic then, we would be best giving them a few tatoos too?

the vast majority of girls want to have sex when they grow up too, does that mean we should encourage them to do it when they are 6?

the vast majority of girls will drink alcohol when they grow up and probably try a cigarette too.

best to let them try now and "get it out of the way"???

We must allow our kids to be kids for as long as possible and let them make their choices when they are old enough to be accountable for them

giveitago Wed 01-Sep-10 12:08:15

Well, I'm pleased my folks (white and asian and very middle class) did mine when I was young.

Just wish my mum had got my nose pierced as well as I was very scared when I had my nose done when I was 19.

Ear piercings won't end up in an addiction and neither would you have to spend £££££ in getting an ear piercing removed via a laser - you just take them out and they close over.

I was very much a kid when I had my ears done and remained a kid for a very long time. Having pierced ears did not put me on the path to hell actually.I didn't have cigarette until I was 19 etc. Holes in my ears did not contribute to me losing my childhood. Growing up and getting older did.

electra Wed 01-Sep-10 12:08:40

Ear piercing does not damage your body in the same way that alcohol does (which it does for adults too), does not have the same health risks as underage sex (cervical cancer for example).

My children still look like children. If others think they look like gypsies it's their prerogative of course. I still don't understand the fuss about it. It's possible to choose nice, tasteful earrings for a child. Personally I think that it's impossible to get stylish earrings that are not for pierced ears.

smallisbeautiful Wed 01-Sep-10 12:11:22

i was only joking electra, i can't even spell the word as it was kindly pointed out!
I just wouldn't choose it for my daughters however i had mine pierced when I was 5 and ended up allergic to anything but gold, expensive allergy that has most likely been inherited by my girls, so I am going to delay it as long as possible.

giveitago Wed 01-Sep-10 12:22:29

massive - you and I clearly don't have the same logic.

Ears don't contribute to kids growing up too quickly. Honestly, they don't.

I don't have girls but if I did I'd want them to have their ears pierced young but at the same time I'd be scared for them (as I hate seeing kids scared). But I think I'd do it.

Good on you electra by the way - I had no idea it was a big issue in the UK at all.

In Italy I see very few young girls with ear piercings - but I doubt it's an issue there - probably just the personal choice of the mums. And I'm sure if I'd wanted a daughter of mine to have her ear pierced by the time she was 3 my Italian MIL would have gone mad. My 37 year old sil doesn't have a piercing.

electra Wed 01-Sep-10 12:23:53

No, it's ok. I think it looks pretty. But I don't have an issue with others thinking differently smile It does really come down to personal choice. And yes, I accept that I have imposed my choice on them but don't we impose our choices on our children in many ways? For me it's just a decoration. It is (imo) far less invasive than a tattoo.

electra Wed 01-Sep-10 12:24:41

sorry that was to smallisbeautiful

Itsonme Wed 01-Sep-10 12:31:35

Pp is right. My DD wanted her ears pierced at 9. I made her wait a while to make sure she was serious. All the while explaining that it would be painful etc. I also made it very clear that if I took her to have them done, both ears were being done. I made it very clear from the outset that it'd hurt, but that there was no way she was going to refuse to have the second ear pierced because the first one hurt. I made the situation and myself very clear for a good while before I agreed to it. She did have a wobble after her first ear was pierced, but fairly instantly got over it. She knew that she had made the decision and I'd given her all the facts (even taken her to the jewellers to see the earrings, the piercing gun etc beforehand)

I'd never have forced her in to getting her ears pierced though, I waited till she asked. I am of the belief though that if kids (old enough to understand) ask for something, and are faced with all the facts, with time to think about them, then they must go through with it. It's how they begin to learn that decisions have consequences. All in all though, she was very pleased with her ears, and the pain was minimal. She is old enough to make sure she turns/cleans them too. I think often the fear of the pain, is worse than the pain.

I do however HATE to see young babies with their ears pierced. I just will never understand that concept. I mean, really, what's the point? Because they look cute? You don't have to inflict pain on a baby just to make them look cute! I personally think it doesn't look cute in one so little anyway, it just looks chavvy! What's the benefit for the baby of having them pierced? I'd only inflict pain where necessary -eg immunisations.

OTTMummA Wed 01-Sep-10 12:36:42

ummm, no ear piercing doesn't just heal up when you take them out!
I have never liked my ear pierced look, i had no choice as my mum decided to get them done for me when i was 2 hmm
I really wish she hadn't, there was no need
She did the same to my sister, born a few yrs after me, and low behold, she had a massive allergic reaction and now has ugly scarred ears as they also got infected.

There is no need, it should be a persons choice to do it when they can rationally choose for themselves.
I am permanently marked, will be for the rest of my life, i don't wear earrings, infact i hardly wear any jewellery, so no, not every girl will want their ears pierced, thats a ridiculous thing to say.

paisleyleaf Wed 01-Sep-10 12:37:33

I think if the child has to be held still - either physically because they're very very young, or with coercion/bribery when they're a little bit older - then it shouldn't be done.
If the child wants it enough to sit still for it themselves then fine.

OTTMummA Wed 01-Sep-10 12:42:14

Itsonme makes a good point to, a baby who can not actually want to be shot in the ear so they can have some piece of metal sticking out of it, does not gain anything from it, they suffer the pain, but can't appreciate it as they have no idea what an earring is/is for.
all they know is that mummy has hurt them, and what for? for the sake of what mummy wants, not what the baby needs.
selfish, cruel, and yes IMVHO abusive when the child is sooooo young.

noeyedear Wed 01-Sep-10 12:44:33

I had my ears pierced aged 1 as my parents are asian. I kicked up a huge fuss and as a result the guy doing it hit a nerve. I had infections for years in my left earlobe, couldn't wear earings until I was in my teens. I know that was 35 years ago, but it really affected me. I have uneven earlobes. If I have a daughter, she will have to roll around on the floor screaming for a few weeks begging to have it done before i take her ( and probably not let my mother have sole charge of her until she's 6 in case she runs off and gets it done behind my back!)

moogalicious Wed 01-Sep-10 12:48:33

join you in the yawn forza

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar Wed 01-Sep-10 13:07:45

grin @ EccentricaGallumbits

People get so worked up about this. It's hilarious.

noviceoftheday Wed 01-Sep-10 13:10:22

This old chesnut? There are 7bn people on this planet. Africa and Asia have 5bn people between them. I mention these two continents because ear piercings for babies are culturally common. On this basis, the vast majority of females on this planet have their ears pierced in the first year. But, hey, don't let these cultural issues get in the way of thinking that all these people are chavs or child abusers. hmm

Olifin Wed 01-Sep-10 13:16:38

Personal choice, obviously, but my own opinion is that jewellery of any kind looks naff on children.

samoa Wed 01-Sep-10 13:19:34

My mother had my ears pierced when I was 6 weeks old, for cultural reasons. I love my earrings and i feel naked without them! I am not a chav and my family aren't either. Most young girls I know want to have their ears pierced and you are not going to ruin their lives by doing it. Having my ears pierced did not stop me from being a child, it did not change me in any way. having earrings when u are young has nothing to do with growing up too fast. Most young girls wearing mini skirts or clothes that are too old for them are not even wearing earrings.

I also just had pierced my 6month old daughters ears, for cultural reasons as well. She was actually quite calm when they were doing it. she did cry from the shock for about 5 mins. My italian MIL is not that keen on, "because that is what people in the countryside do", it but that is her problem.

But you know everybody to their own. All I know is that I come from a very multicultural family (Nigerians, Australians, Somalis, Brazilians, Italians, english etc) and it has taught me not to judge, that everybody has different beliefs, ideas and ways of doing things and none of them are wrong.

Olifin Wed 01-Sep-10 13:22:19

Of course, the other issue with earrings on children is the safety risk. As a primary school teacher for 40 years, my mum has seen a fair few ripped ear lobes. Not life-threatening, I don't suppose, but also not what you would want to happen to your child. It can happen with studs as easily as with hoops or dangly earrings.

giveitago Wed 01-Sep-10 13:41:47

Gotta say that those who think it's chavvy are writing off a large proportion of the world's children.

I had mine done for cultural reasons I think. I was in Tanzania and I reckon my aunts told my mum I looked odd so I had it done - on an ironing board with curved scissors and cotton with lemon juice. All I remember was my mum took me to a nearby toyshop after and pretty much bought me the entire stock.

I don't feel like I was abused actually.I just don't.

I couldn't give a shit what other people do but I laugh at those who say it's abuse or chavvy - not a nice thing to call my mother - I'd love you to say it to her face.

Mahraih Wed 01-Sep-10 13:44:58

I had mine done when I was 2, apparently I insisted! Actually, I can believe that, I was a horror.

Never did me any 'arm.

Olifin Wed 01-Sep-10 13:49:00

I'm not overkeen on the word 'chavvy' but I do think jewellery on children looks a bit tasteless. Why do children need adorning? In my opinion, it's like putting make-up on them or styling their hair. Purely my opinion though and of course I wouldn't say that to someone whose child was wearing jewellery.

And there is a safety risk re. ripped earlobes which seems to be overlooked.

giveitago Wed 01-Sep-10 13:51:36

I think a pair of studs on a young child looks fine.

I've been noticing quite a few c.7 year old boys with one ear piercing - is that a trend?

Hammy02 Wed 01-Sep-10 13:52:11

Culture or not, putting holes in children ain't right!

Olifin Wed 01-Sep-10 13:54:22

A small boy with a pierced ear looks really awful, IMO. Even worse, two pierced ears, which seems to have become a trend thanks to Beckham et al. Especially when they wear those large diamante studs. Boak.

LucyLouLou Wed 01-Sep-10 13:55:39

I think ear piercings on babies look bloody awful. The vast majority in this country are done for decorative purposes, which are totally unnecessary for babies. Someone I know posted photos of her little girl (under 2) on Facebook, she has pierced ears and it just looked horrible. Not to mention that the child in question screamed and cried through the whole thing, but the mother insisted it was done because "it looks good". So wrong.

Lovethesea Wed 01-Sep-10 14:02:47

I wasn't allowed to have my ears pierced as a child or teen (parents religious views) and by the time I had left home for university I didn't actually want them done. I am 35 now and have never had them pierced. I wear some jewellry at times, but I like my ears as they are!

I won't be piercing DD's (or DS's) ears because I'd like them to have that choice too. My understanding is they don't just close up if they were pierced when young? There are many things I am choosing for them, but hairstyles can be changed when older while earrings are a fixed image - or at least the holes or scars being left are (my mum let hers close up decades ago but the marks are still there very clearly).

puddlepuss Wed 01-Sep-10 14:04:06

I don't like pierced ears on babies/children, but then I don't like hair bands with massheeeve bows on babies with no hair or those silver bracelet thingies on babies. Each to their own but it's not for me. Having said that, I got mine pierced at 14 after having a massive strop over it and chucking a plate of spag bol at my dad so I'm sure dd will make her own choice later in life.

giveitago Wed 01-Sep-10 14:16:38

Yep- in my day I was the ONLY girl at school with earrings -I think the school had to make an earring policy around me.

The girls were so curious about my tiny studs and I never really understood them as it felt natural to me. I wasn't at all curious about the fact they didn't have earrings. But I do remember when they got to 14 (the age for having them done) and the endless updates on how they were getting on trying to get their parents to agree. It seemed like a right of passage.

noviceoftheday Wed 01-Sep-10 14:43:13

Giveitago, I had the same experience. I remember being totally baffled at the time as to why it was a big deal as everyone I knew outside of school had them. It's only since I have been on MN that I have realised what a really big deal it is! Also these endless threads have made me realise that when I go out and about with DD that there are culturally unaware people out there who think I am either a chav or child abuser.shock

OTTMummA Wed 01-Sep-10 14:48:32

shock at giveitago, an ironing board? curved scissors?! that is abuse, and i feel sorry for you TBH that your mother obviously caved into pressure from her family, when obviously you were absolutley fine without the bloody earrings!
You THINK, it was for cultural reasons?! did they not even ask or consult you?!
How fucking awful.
But of course all the toys in the world make up for that hmm!
( obviously she felt it was wrong/she felt guilty or she wouldn't of tried to compensate you with toys! )

I would actually tell your mum what she did was wrong, and im pretty sure if someone did that to her/or anyone as an adult they would of felt abused, or violated.

The one thing i stick to in my parenting style is, that if it makes me feel uncomfortable after a rational debate/discussion, its not happening, whatever it is.
therefore pinning my son down so they can get a good X-Ray i can condone,
Shooting a piece of metal through a baby so it looks pretty ( debatable ) not so much.

Well my dd had hers done today, she is 6. She had been talking about it for a while and we went in to claires today. There was a girl having hers done so dd watched, after that she still wanted it done so I agreed. The studs are tiny and she has a chin length bob so tbh you cant even see them lol.

She had hers done one at a time in claires - the lady said they normally did them both together but she was the only one trained in the shop today - she gave me the choice of having them done or coming back another day.

The lady explained the after care to her and she is very concerned about doing it all properly so I think she is responsible enough.

Each to their own really but I would never force her to have them done.

solo Wed 01-Sep-10 15:20:47

I'm trying to work out how scissors can 'pierce' an earlobe anyway and not leave a slice in it. A large needle yes, but not scissors!

I had mine done at 7. As a tall child with a tiny(adult) neighbour that wanted one of my (second hand) skirt suits, I negotiated having my ears pierced as payment for it grin. The jeweller just 'froze' my ear and pushed the earring through.

Dd is 3.8 and doesn't have pierced ears yet. I don't like it on very young girls.

Ds is 12 and wants an ear piercing. I've said no. If he wants it as an 18+ adult, up to him, but not on my watch. No way!

cansu Wed 01-Sep-10 15:32:05

I can't believe that anyone would want to persuade their child to have their ears pierced. Sorry but think it's completely ludicrous. It's a fashion accessory, not an important immunisation!

Helenastar Wed 01-Sep-10 15:44:48

My daughter had her ears pierced when she was 2 and half, this was done for mainly cultural reasons, her Dad is from an arabic family.
She got them done at Claires, and did not really cry much, I am sure I am going to get a load of stick on here for it though, but my DD loves them, and they dont look chavvy on her.
I suppose I would always have got them done at some point, I had my ears pierced at 6, and by the time i was 12 had 3 holes in each ear, 3rd ones done myself!!
I ended up with 7 holes in one ear eventually, all though I have taken most of them out now.

giveitago Wed 01-Sep-10 15:55:55

LOL - OTT - bloody hell - I had it done in Tanzania - early 1970's - no guns around then and they are still not used today in many placed.

FFS - WHAT abuse - my mum's family are asian - are you honestly trying to tell me that millions of girls around the world are abused or are chavs? Gosh.

I couldn't tell my mum that I think she abused me simply because erm, she DIDN'T.

OMG - I'm British born and bred and with a very educated and multilingual English father - he clearly didn't think I was being abused in about 1972.

Curved scissors - makes a hole - not a slit.

I'm gobsmacked. I can see an argument for many people not being happy with their own little girls being given a piercing but purlease!!!!!!

PosieParker Wed 01-Sep-10 16:06:00

No matter what religion/culture or status pierced ears on young children looks horrid, unattractive and loses a little of their innocence. It is unnecessary and permanent, same as circumcision as far as I'm concerned.

Lucky for me my children are beautiful enough without holes stuffed with metal on their earswinkshock.

5DollarShake Wed 01-Sep-10 16:15:00

Posie -exactly what I was going to say! grin

Do those of you who've your babies done think they need extra adornment in order to look attractive? What does a small chunk of gold, or a hoop or a flower stuck in their ear actually add?

And of course those who've had it done won't think think baby looks 'chavvy'. wink

giveitago Wed 01-Sep-10 16:15:55

Posie - how on EARTH does it lose their innocence?

My god - this just highlights that although our lovely mners reckon they are middle class, multicultural (LOL) right on etc - just a bunch of little provincials really, aren't we.

My mum's family would think I looked horrid without earrings I guess. Who's right - noone really.

But it does no harm.

I thought my friends were odd back in the 80's for making a big deal of my piercings - but nothing's changed I guess.

OTTMummA Wed 01-Sep-10 16:16:38

Firstly i didn't say you were not bristish born confused.
so educated people arn't capable of abuse or witnessing abuse and ignoring it??

Wow must tell my mother they got it wrong when they tested her IQ!

Lots of things happen in other cultures that are considered abusive and wrong to lots of other people.
I don't think that just because a group of people have been doing something for a long time consitutes in it being nessecary OR RIGHT does it?

If piercing your ears was so important to her culture why did she leave it until surrounded by her family?
They didn't even explain to you!

Im frankly gobsmacked that you can recount the story without feeling something is wrong about the whole thing.

5DollarShake Wed 01-Sep-10 16:18:33

'Provincial' for not like ear-piercing on babies. grin

I've really heard it all now. grin

giveitago Wed 01-Sep-10 16:18:59

5dollar - I have never looked like a chav - my mum is not a chav and neither is my dad a chav lover.

I guess YOUR children would look like chavs with a piercing.

My dad is THE most conservative 'Englishman' you could meet - he had no problems with it. It didn't make me look any more or any less attractive - I just looked like I had some tiny studs in my ears!

God - you lot - honestly.

PosieParker Wed 01-Sep-10 16:20:07

I had my nose pierced when I was sixteen, it was unusual then...when every tom, dick and harry got it done I took mine out, but that's me. When I see a little girl made 'nice' with a couple of gold studs I genuinely think 'eeewwww'. I have yet to see a child that I felt was improved by it, something adult like piercings is just a step away from American pageants, accessorising our children is really rather tasteless.

giveitago Wed 01-Sep-10 16:23:03

Oh ffs OTT mum - please call social services on my behalf.

Oh in my family we speak 5 languages between us - the majority by my very abusive chavvy mum - my father had diplomatic status - we are not chavs - in fact - we're quite a fun family with lots of experience and education - we were NEVER taken for being a problem family by our peers who were from a broad spectrum of society.

A pair of bloody earrings for goodness sake.

I'm soooo glad I'm not being brought up by you.

5DollarShake Wed 01-Sep-10 16:24:55

Giveitago - isn't it rather sad that your Mum's family would think you looked horrid without a hunk of metal through your ear? confused

Why did you need the extra adornment?

Although then you go on to contradict yourself, saying it didn't make you look any more or less attractive, so I'm confused... Why bother then?

PosieParker Wed 01-Sep-10 16:26:37

giveitago Culture is a very poor excuse for putting holes in a child's ears. There are lots of cultural practices that are pretty crappy.

giveitago Wed 01-Sep-10 16:28:56

I didn't contradict myself - another poster reckoned that it was to make girls look attractive. I didn't say it. I was responding to the poster who said it.

noviceoftheday Wed 01-Sep-10 16:31:21

Posie, I had my ears pierced at one week old. There was no drama and can't remember it. I love having my ears pierced, and its part of my culture. Every female member of my family had their ears pierced at same stage including DD, again no drama. Not child abuse or a chav thing or a "it makes her look nice thing", just a cultural thing that was very important to me to do. Per my earlier post, the majority of people on this planet have the same view. It doesn't make my view any more valid than yours, nor the other way around. I do however, find your comments highly disrespectful to my culture and race. Now, as you were.....

giveitago Wed 01-Sep-10 16:31:38

Well, I'm very happy with my culture - it's done me no harm whatsoever. Possibly, it's done me quite a bit of good.

Ok I see what you're getting at. If I see a blond child with an earring I feel it's not wrong - if I see a blond child without an earring I feel it's not wrong.

OTTMummA Wed 01-Sep-10 16:33:23

I have mentioned nothing to do education in response to who gets their ears pierced?
what point are you trying to make?
I don't care, who you are, where you're from, what uni you went to, or how many languages you speak, that means nothing really, or do you think it does?
Because really you sound like you have issues with that aspect.

My family is fun, and i love them, including my mother, very much, doesn't mean that i think she has always done whats in my best interests, i have told her how i felt about her getting my ears pierced and she has apologised, and after my sisters reaction, she didn't do it with any other siblings because she realised it wasn't nessecity or worth the upset later on.

I only have one DS, and am not perfect, but TBH in this situation i would of told my family to back off.
But then im my own person, i don't bend to someones expectations if i don't agree with it.

LucyLouLou Wed 01-Sep-10 16:45:02

I'm not really sure where I stand on the issue of piercings being a cultural tradition, but I do know that specifically is no defence for anything. Female circumcision, foot-binding, etc, are cultural traditions which are very wrong and anybody with half a brain would not even begin to defend them on the grounds of tradition. Before anyone with a pierced baby/child jumps on me for being extreme, I'm not comparing the above examples to ear piercing, I am simply pointing out that using "it's a cultural tradition" as a reason/defence for anything and expecting people to just accept that without question or debate is ridiculous.

OTTMummA Wed 01-Sep-10 16:47:16

what are the cultural reasons?
I know there are many, but whenever i have asked, no one can give me a straight answer, someone please enlighten me.

PosieParker Wed 01-Sep-10 16:47:21

Novice. Really you find a blanket statement about ear piercing disrespectful to your own culture and race? I'm actually laughing at such idiocy.

I am delighted that as an Atheist English woman I have no 'culture' of piercing, cutting, clipping, shearing or rites of painful passage to subject my children too.

OTTMummA Wed 01-Sep-10 16:53:44

Me too PosieParker, so glad!

PosieParker Wed 01-Sep-10 16:57:31

Still awaiting the cultural reasons, rather than it became a fashion and stuck.

LucyLouLou Wed 01-Sep-10 16:58:24

I suspect the cultural reasons are simply based in decoration, but I could be wrong....

noviceoftheday Wed 01-Sep-10 17:00:53

OTT, I dont understand others, as you say I think that there are a wide variety of reasons (I have never asked others why they do it) but dont really want to say mine without outting myself. Sorry sounds lame!

Posie, what I find offensive is your refusal to accept that shock, horror, there might be views/reasons other than the blinkered ones you hold. Your last line would fit in well with the times of the 1600s/1700s when the English considered the Asians and Africans savages.

5DollarShake Wed 01-Sep-10 17:03:01

And because it's 'cultural', we're not allowed to question it...?

I'm so glad my culture doesn't work like that...

noviceoftheday Wed 01-Sep-10 17:07:00

I think its a good thing to question it and I think that good things have come about over the centuries in my culture because other people questioned some practices. I also think its a good thing to ask why. I just find it offensive to imply that there might be other views other than its child abuse.

LucyLouLou Wed 01-Sep-10 17:08:46

novice, I'm sorry if I'm wrong, but I think the "wide variety of reasons" you speak of are all likely to be the same (defended by tradition, but based in fashion). I wouldn't necessarily say you sound lame, but I also don't think you can justify your perspective by being quiet about your reason. Honestly, do you have one that is seperate from "it's tradition"? You don't have to say what it is, I agree with that, but it's difficult for people to understand or consider where you're coming from without knowing....well....where you're coming from.

Some people seriously need to accept that just because something is traditional or cultural, it doesn't make it beyond reproach. It does seem to be a very popular and sometimes unchallenged thing to say on this site....

PosieParker Wed 01-Sep-10 17:09:01

Sorry novice, you are offended by me being pleased about the culture I come from....frankly I'm offended and pretty fed up that I am not allowed to celebrate my own culture. I think you're projecting your own crap at my door.

Nothing blinkered about not harming children, quite blinkered and a little stupid to go along with something just because it's part of a culture though. What would have happened if you hadn't put holes in your child's ears?

Besides it looks so naff.

electra Wed 01-Sep-10 17:13:24

'No matter what religion/culture or status pierced ears on young children looks horrid, unattractive and loses a little of their innocence.'

That's a matter of opinion. It annoys me when people state their opinions as fact. If you're happy with your own lives you shouldn't feel the need to judge and look down on others for a difference of opinion.

electra Wed 01-Sep-10 17:14:53

'I'm offended and pretty fed up that I am not allowed to celebrate my own culture.'

What's that supposed to mean? hmm

PosieParker Wed 01-Sep-10 17:16:00

It's obvious it's my opinion, I hate it when people set up every sentence with 'In my opinion...'.

I'm sure you never judge anyone.

OTTMummA Wed 01-Sep-10 17:16:57

from baby world.com

Culture or fashion
Ear piercing has long been the subject of controversy but for some, piercing a child's ears has deep-rooted cultural meanings. Evidence of ear-lobe piercing is seen in ancient civilisations dating over 6000 years and many ancient African, Aboriginal and Nordic cultures all pierced their ears.

Hindus hold an ear piercing ceremony known as Karnavedha on babies of both sexes at twelve days old. They believe that the piercing of a hole in the lower lobes of the ear have benefits of acupuncture as well as distracting evil spirits.

Ear piercing is also mentioned in the Bible and for some Christians is said to be a sign of faith. It is normal, for example, for Latin American Christians to routinely pierce baby girls' ears.

As well as cultural reasons, parents may also choose to pierce their baby's ears because of family traditions or, most typically, to identify the baby as a girl. However, some babies have their ears pierced because of the social culture they are born into. The Beckhams, for example, played down tabloid criticism of their decision to pierce their 3-year old son's ears saying that they had it done because they thought it 'looked cute'.

The question that has divided people is whether a parent has the right to make that choice for their child as part of a fashion or social statement.

nothing here tells me a baby needs to have their ears pierced.
Nothing here shows a justified, logical reason to me why a baby/child has to suffer pain becuase of the culture it was born into.

Its all decoration, superstision and outdated tradition.

PosieParker Wed 01-Sep-10 17:16:57

Novice posted that me saying my culture doesn't require such things was like looking upon Asians as savages.

electra Wed 01-Sep-10 17:17:00

I certainly try not to.

electra Wed 01-Sep-10 17:18:34

I see novice's point entirely.

grapeandlemon Wed 01-Sep-10 17:21:23

I am Italian and can I state is is certainly not the norm for italian babies to get their ears pierced. Where I am from it would be considered quite horrific.

Personal views I cringe when I see children with pierced ears esp the really small infants. I am gobsmaked that with all the things you have to enjoy with a newborn, one of the things on the list would be ; oh yes must remember to put holes in her ears. It also looks tacky and dreadful.

massivemammaries Wed 01-Sep-10 17:46:10

sorry - you are just not meant to punch holes in babies and kids - if they were meant to have holes then they would come pre-holed

noviceoftheday Wed 01-Sep-10 17:50:22

Okay got an excerpt from a website that illustrates the differences between Western and Asian/African reasons for ear piercing...

"Ear piercing has been considered fashionable for both men and women in the western world at various historical periods. The practice of piercing the earlobe has been especially stylish from since the 1990s well into the early years of the 21st century. However, as evidenced from the mask of Tutankhamun found in an archaeological dig in Egypt, ear piercing has long been around, and it is considered to have spiritual and cultural meanings in many societies.

There are different cultural significances of ear piercing. Ted Polhemus, an American anthropologist, believes that ears were first pierced because primitive tribes feared that evil spirits and demons could enter the body through the ears. Piercings allows the demons and spirits to slip through the lobes. He also claims that in many societies, piercing of earlobes is a ritual to celebrate puberty."

www.ehow.com/about_6565215_history-pierced-ears.ht ml#ixzz0yIU7QomU

noviceoftheday Wed 01-Sep-10 17:56:42

Posie, You described yourself as an English woman. I would regard myself as bi-cultural as I have flit between both English and ancestral cultures all my life. I can celebrate one, without feeling the need to denigrate the other. I don't have any crap to project on to anyone (including you) but do take issue with the notion that the English culture is superior to Asian/African cultures, which seems to be the subtext of your post. If, that is what you're implying, then I find that a racist view.

massivemammaries Wed 01-Sep-10 17:57:03

@ novice .... oh right then, if it is a ritual then it MUST be ok.

I'll go and get all their ears pierced right after I've observed these rituals http://www.ygoy.com/index.php/top-5-really-weird-rituals-involving-children/

electra Wed 01-Sep-10 17:59:39

Yes but you could apply that argument in a variety of contexts;

it's not natural to dye your hair
to have your teeth straightened
or even to wear clothes or anything fashionable

It's fine to object to it but I don't agree that it is particularly painful or traumatic to have your ears pierced - and some posters have suggested it's on a par with something like female circumcision (which has implications for your life as an adult quite apart from the pain involved). I remember a sensation having my ears pierced, but not pain. Though I appreciate all people are different and perhaps some would disagree.

Everyone has different points of view about everything, which is a good thing. But it's not reasonable to get angry because others don't agree with your opinion or to insult others.

noviceoftheday Wed 01-Sep-10 18:03:33

@ mammaries: Haven't clicked on the link as it will no doubt be offensive but where did I say that all things ritual must be okay? Please read my posts. I said that there are different reasons why people have babies' ears pierced. My previous post was outlining the fact that there were different views. That doesn't make all rituals okay. It just mean that there are different views.

giveitago Wed 01-Sep-10 18:04:19

Novice I'm with you.

I had my ears pierced at the age of three or four - late by asian standards.

I do not feel abused - I do not feel more adorned for it (you can't see my little studs as I have huge hair)or less horrid. I'm pleased that I did not have to go through it later when the fear is greater.

Sadly, and I hate to say it, I feel this thread has become somewhat racist in tone. The op concentrated on a mother trying to get her daughter's ears pierced inspite of the child's obvious distress to the value of other cultures. The distress of a child was left behind ages ago.

Those with ear piercings are not saying that girls without are lacking. Those who don't entertain the idea are attacking us on cultural grounds.

Shame - but there you go.

Yep, I agree about earrings and people not having holes in their ears at birth - but the same applies to everything - people who are not meant to be blond but dye their hair, people who are pale trying to get a bit of a tan. The works.

I like my ears pierced and I'm happy I had it done young (curved scissors, ironing board and lemon cotton - the works). It doesn't mean I'd do it to any female offspring of mine but I certainly wouldn't judge those who do.

Actually I think if you are going to take that decision for your child, the earlier the better surely?

juicy12 Wed 01-Sep-10 18:09:12

Personally, I think it looks pretty revolting on really small children, and round my way - demographic heavily weighted toward white MC - it's seen as chavvy in the extreme. Would find it really hard to inflict that on my daughter tbh, but, as they say, each to his/her own. smile

LucyLouLou Wed 01-Sep-10 18:12:48

novice, by 'defending' something simply because it's cultural, that implies that things are acceptable solely on the basis that they have roots in cultural traditions, I think that was the point. I do wish you would stop insinuating people are racist, not a single person on this thread has given a hint of a racist view. Your perception is a bit skewered in that respect.

grapeandlemon Wed 01-Sep-10 18:13:30

People don't routinely bleach their newborn's hair or apply tan. Surely and hopefully that may or may not happen on request of the adolescent to their parents. I feel that is when the discussion should take place.

I also went to school with a girl who had no Lower earlobe due to an infection after a pierced ear as an infant. She was essentially disfigured by an unecessary procedure.

PosieParker Wed 01-Sep-10 18:15:33

FFS the race card. Yes all the calls of 'chav' were directed at non whiteshmm. If it's racist to say I am pleased that as an English Atheist I have no cultural practices that involve piercing, cutting, shearing then yes I am racist. I forgot that saying something nice about one's own culture is automatically racist if you're white.....now ironically that is racist. The subtext is one you have projected. Telling me that it was similar to how the English viewed the Africans and Asians as savages is very very insulting.

I get very pissed off at the 'unspeakable' topics because they are guarded by culture or religion. Well I am a human being first and I expect to be able to air my views about human beings without being bound by culture, especially one that isn't mine. Culture and religion do not excuse putting holes in a child's ears, especially when nobody (without google) can explain what the cultural reason is, not even a notion of historical reasoning just blinkered following.

OTTMummA Wed 01-Sep-10 18:16:03

yes, but i don't know how many people find it acceptable to dye a 6 month old babys hair, or put some fake tan on them either,
Its not that its not natural, its the age and consent that bothers me!
im pretty sure that if you forced a 15 yr old to have her ears pierced when she didn't want to then you would arrested for assault.
The only difference i can see is that the 15yr old has a voice, a 1 week old baby has no say, its her body, why is it your right to scar her ears for life?
Most women are just lucky their daughters eventually want their ears pierced, and that allergic reactions are rare/not life threatening.
However, there are still some people who feel let down by their parents choice to do something they never asked them to do.

PosieParker Wed 01-Sep-10 18:18:35

OTT people do dye their dcs hair and crimp and curl, in American beauty pageants and I think we all agree that they are hideous.

OTTMummA Wed 01-Sep-10 18:19:13

im a bit dissapointed at the lack of cultural explanations from people here aswell, i was hoping to have a bit more insight than what i found on google!

giveitago Wed 01-Sep-10 18:23:23

Lucy - how do you know that a single person has given a hint of a racist view. For some of us it's been more of a hint.

No it's not the race card.

As I said - those of us who don't have a problem with ear piercings don't have a problem with those that don't like it - we don't view your children as being lacking.

You (generic those not agreeing with us) believe that we are either abused (I've got to laugh at this) or are victims of 'culture' - an inferior one.

I'd suggest that YOU are playing the race card.

Asdashopper Wed 01-Sep-10 18:25:58

"Personally, I think it looks pretty revolting on really small children, and round my way - demographic heavily weighted toward white MC - it's seen as chavvy in the extreme"

So if the MC mummies think it chavvy it must be true hmm

LucyLouLou Wed 01-Sep-10 18:27:32

When you say 'bad' things about cultural traditions, it does not mean you are being racist. Just because some of you say you are perceiving racism doesn't mean there is any. It's just ridiculous how quickly a conversation descends into stupidity.

PosieParker Wed 01-Sep-10 18:29:10

Can anyone direct me to the racist comments?

grapeandlemon Wed 01-Sep-10 18:32:22

Fgs talk about missing the point.

OTTMummA Wed 01-Sep-10 18:32:49

yes please, because i missed that one

PosieParker Wed 01-Sep-10 18:33:36

grape.....was that about the MC?

grapeandlemon Wed 01-Sep-10 18:34:48

No - the whole racism implication.

noviceoftheday Wed 01-Sep-10 18:36:50

I think you will find that giveitago said that the thread had become racist in tone. I agree.

OTTMummA Wed 01-Sep-10 18:39:09

of course you would well done!

PosieParker Wed 01-Sep-10 18:39:35

What do you agree about Novice? Can you show us all where anyone has been racist?

ravenAK Wed 01-Sep-10 18:42:48

I might wait till dh is asleep & pierce his ears, actually. I'm sure he won't mind...

...or then again, he might quite reasonably have me charged with assault.

I quite like piercings, but I find the idea of subjecting a tiny child to them repugnant.

Sorry & all that, & I wouldn't bother telling anyone so in RL if they were determined to have it done to their kids, but there it is. Disfiguring & potentially dangerous, what's to like?

EgyptVanGogh Wed 01-Sep-10 18:50:08

FFS.

Slagging off parents for having baby ears pierced.

Yet criticize someone for giving formula milk - oh dear no, we mustn't hurt anyone's FEELINGS. Not that giving formula milk is a cultural thing though...oh wait...

electra Wed 01-Sep-10 18:50:59

I read racist connotation too in what was said.

In addition, using the term 'the race card' has certain implications about the person using that term in my experience.

giveitago Wed 01-Sep-10 18:52:43

Novice - I'll direct this at you as clearly we are told what to do and how to feel and how to take people's comments.

My view is that it's chavvy unless it's for cultural reasons (ie not a european one) and then it's abuse.

There, I've said how I take the comments.

But quite honestly I don't care - my life chances are not affected by this.

Guys - you know what - sometimes cultural things have no particular weight but people go along with them as they like them - you know - like your daughters might like to wear pink and your son's like blue.

Not particularly dangerous.

noviceoftheday Wed 01-Sep-10 18:53:43

OTT, in my culture, a lot of attention is paid to our ancestors. i.e. we believe that the ancestors will walk with you in spirit form at certain times of your life and that they are always around you. Just as there are good people and bad people on earth, there are also good and bad ancestors. The belief is that if you don't do things to ward off the bad ancestors or you don't do things to get the good ancestors to continue looking after you, then your life on earth will be more difficult. Paying heed to ancestors at the most important events of ones life is therefore important - so includes, births, marriages, new home and deaths. oh and even divorces! The belief is that the bad ancestoral spirit will try and enter a child's body and therefore return to earth. By piercing the ear the cultural belief is that they will pass through and the child will be protected. That is why it has to happen so quickly. In addition, it is very important that a child is named quickly, and similarly the ancestors are invoked on this day too. Oh and its important to name the child after a good ancestor as well, so that they will always protect you.

I hope that gives you insight. It is what happens in my culture but I believe from the brief conversations I have had with people from a wide variety of other cultures that the reasons are different.Aa child I was only ever allowed to wear plain studs and even now rarely deviate from that. DD has been given bracelets and necklaces as presents but doesn't wear any of them. Some lovely (English) friends have also given DD earrings that are slightly decorative. Again she doesn't wear them.

I agree with Electra re the observations that some people have made that having your ears pierced is on a par with female circumcision, which as she says has implications for all your adult life. If done correctly, and the ears are looked after correctly, the pain of ear piercing is never felt after the initial prick. My DD didn't even flinch when her ears were pierced (at one week) and didn't cry. Neither did she cry at her heel prick or 2 month jab. It's only at her 3 month jab that she cried.

Ear piercing comes up over and over on MN and each time, I get angry at the view tahat it is only ever done for one reason (for decoration and even on this thread it has been said that the cultural reason must be for decoration) but have never said anything before. I posted today because I thought it would be good to give a different viewpoint.

mrz Wed 01-Sep-10 18:55:27
noviceoftheday Wed 01-Sep-10 19:01:33

mrz that's very interesting but as I have already explained the ear piercing isn't done for decorative reasons in our culture. I believe it to be the same in a lot of other cultures. I am not saying that all cultures are the same but I wouldn't want the facts get in a way of a good yarn.

mrz Wed 01-Sep-10 19:04:27

noviceoftheday I haven't read any of the thread so I don't know which culture you are part of ...are you Spanish?
I saw the thread title and remembered reading the blog and thought others may find it interesting.

Hammy02 Wed 01-Sep-10 19:11:20

Do not put holes/cut children. It is wrong. Shove your cultural, superstitious nonsense. It has no place in modern society.

giveitago Wed 01-Sep-10 19:14:56

Why are assuming that it's supertitious nonsense.

It might just be cultural - like pink for girls etc. And, sorry, a baby having their ear pierced and looked after well so no infection (like a piercing at any age) does not, in my opinion, render them abused.

PosieParker Wed 01-Sep-10 19:16:01

electra....that's a load of bullshit. The 'race card' was a term frequently used in the OJ trial, which is where I got it. I'm frankly insulted by, and have very low opinions of, people that accuse me of racism because I don't think culture is a good enough excuse for putting holes in a child's ears. I am very pleased to be what I am and where I come from, I am sure you are too. As noone had discussed where they're from I find it hard to believe that anyone is dumb enough to talk about racism.

OTTMummA Wed 01-Sep-10 19:27:00

You see, i find that beautiful in sentiment Novice, but I still find the age and consent a personal problem, and TBH, in the future i feel that certain aspects of different cultures will be the dmise of them altogehter in the end, which, really isn't nessecary, its our worlds history.
BUT.
Why in this more knowledgeable age can't cultures evolve and leave physical passages of rites etc at the proverbial ancient door?

There is no reason in civilised society to hurt a baby for these reasons, IMO.
If we can't connect to our ancestors/past without physically putting a hole in a baby then maybe we need to readress what the really important aspects of cultures are, ie, way of life, treating other people, respecting human life etc than folding into superstision?

puddlepuss Wed 01-Sep-10 19:27:00

Racism??? We're talking about sticking a piece of metal through a child of any colour, race, heritage, religion, whatever. No one has said all asians/blacks/whites/ are crap because they do this. They've said that not all cultural practices are good so why is ear piercing good. I don't think ear piercing on a baby looks good no matter what the baby looks like. My dd is very blonde. Piercing her ears would make her look chavvy - I know this because she had some plastic clip-on ones and she looked like a tramp. It doesn't suit her. I have seen children it does suit but never a baby. If you want to pierce your child's ears then go ahead but you can't expect everyone to think it's a good idea. Crying out racism on a forum where no-one knows what you look like seems a bit odd to me.

Hammy02 Wed 01-Sep-10 19:29:52

Cry racism if you want. Piercing infants is not a normal practise amongst non-chav parents in the UK. I am really bored of pandering to people that find it acceptable to cry racism at anything that doesn't fit into their realm of beliefs.

electra Wed 01-Sep-10 19:32:25

PP. I disagree. I think it's reasonable for people to take offense when you imply that UK culture is somehow 'superior' and more enlightened than cultures who have practices that you don't understand or agree with. That is how I read what you said - it came across that way to me.

You also said;

'frankly I'm offended and pretty fed up that I am not allowed to celebrate my own culture'

That, together with the 'race card' sentiment makes me feel uncomfortable when I hear it because it reminds me of some of the sentiment that I have read in BNP literature, along the lines of 'why should we feel like strangers in our own country?' which underpins a general intolerance for those who don't think like or are different from oneself. In addition, there are many people of many cultures who consider themselves 'English'.

I'm not trying to insult you or anyone else. I'm explaining how I feel about some of the language that people use. Racism is so often implicit and insidious in its negative impact on communities.

electra Wed 01-Sep-10 19:34:26

'pandering to' - yep I've heard that one too hmm

Nobody has actually said it's racist to disagree with ear piercing. But some of the language used certainly sounds it to me.

Hammy02 Wed 01-Sep-10 19:35:16

I hate to state the obvious but wherever you were born, whatever your beliefs, you are in the UK....and so on infinitum....I am boring myself. I am off for a lovely glass of wine.

Asdashopper Wed 01-Sep-10 19:36:21

Actually the chav comments offend me too

puddlepuss Wed 01-Sep-10 19:39:39

So a 'white' person can't celebrate their culture without being a member of the BNP? I've heard it all now.

electra Wed 01-Sep-10 19:42:55

What has being white to do with it??

You obviously haven't read my post properly.

giveitago Wed 01-Sep-10 19:43:15

Thanks electra

I'm white (pretty much) and what I feel about the latter part of this thread is this:

The OP scenario has been thrown out of the window as soon as someone mentioned the words 'their culture'. Chavvy up until then and the soon as culture was mentioned it was considered abuse.

When that is mentioned, those that take offence are accused of playing the 'race card'.

Well I'm white and I find it hugely offensive that you tell me about the pitfalls of 'my culture' (ie that of my mum) and then tell me how I should feel about about your comments.

That's what makes it racist.

Race card - my arse.

I find it fucking offensive to have my mother be accused of abuse (worst case) and then told how I should feel.

Yet it is you that feels so offended. My oh my.

ravenAK Wed 01-Sep-10 19:52:40

My mother used to whack me with a slipper, drive around with my brother & I unrestrained in the boot of an estate car & smoke whilst sharing confined spaces with us (all three simultaneously on long, stressful journeys actually grin).

No, she wasn't 'abusive'.

But these are all things that wouldn't be seen as good parenting practice today.

It's possible to acknowledge that cultural practices evolve, without that being tantamount to an accusation of abuse against someone who adhered to them in the past.

Saying that ear-piercing of tiny children, to young to give consent, is repellent, does not = accusing anyone who's ever done it is an abuser.

grapeandlemon Wed 01-Sep-10 19:52:47

electra you are really talking utter nonsense now.

The OP stated that it was common in Italian culture. I took no offense at that and that is my nationality.

Many people are going to strongly disagree with using cultural traditions to defend punching holes in a babies ears. Some people feel it is very very wrong to do so and it really has nothing whatsoever to do with racism. It has everything to do with the rights of the non-verbal infant.

Like I said before a girl in my class lost her earlobe due to an impetigic infection setting in after piercing as an infant. Yes that can happen and it's unlucky but SHE HAD NO SAY. For me this is the crux of the argument against piercing babies.

PosieParker Wed 01-Sep-10 19:53:43

Reread from 16.06 posts and then tell me that waht I have written is racist.

Crazycatlady Wed 01-Sep-10 19:54:40

"Piercing infants is not a normal practise amongst non-chav parents in the UK."

Hammy what you have said here just is not true. Many, many West Indian, Somali, Nigerian and Indian families pierce the ears of their young daughters very early in their lives. We have significant populations of each of these cultural groups, you're in real danger of offending someone here. You sound like you don't really care, but I couldn't let this comment pass without correction.

puddlepuss Wed 01-Sep-10 20:01:29

Electra - sorry I was reading the whole page and obviously didn't take it in properly. I just don't think that anyone who is proud of their culture is necessarily putting down another person's. I'm proud to be white and British but I'm also ashamed of some of the history of the white British culture. It was wrong. Other cultures have history that was wrong. No-one sacrifices their firstborn these days so why is it necessary to put holes in them? That's all that's being asked here, why is it still right just because history says so?

giveitago Wed 01-Sep-10 20:11:50

Ok -I can see your argument against it for your kids.

There is little argument for it. But really - for all those of us who had chavviness (if white) or abuse (if not white) inflicted on us when young - how are we doing now? Just fine.

(how would you lose an earlobe unless mummy/daddy didn't look after the skin or get you proper medical care in time?)

So is it that bad IF there are children with ear piercings? Do you actually pity these children. Do you truly regard them as abused.

Personally I see kids as kids - 'adorned' with earrings as opposed to being 'adorned' in naff pink clothes. If health and happiness are there - what's the problem?

electra Wed 01-Sep-10 20:18:25

If you think I'm 'talking nonsense' then I really don't care smile You don't make any sensible critique of my observations though. Perhaps you'd rather not think about it. This was not about ear piercing itself but could be comments found on any thread, or anywhere in RL.

PP - I find some of the language you used and the implication offensive, which I think I explained. Racism doesn't begin and end with 'disliking' people of a different race.

As far as ear piercing goes it is not for others to judge, whatever the reasons people have for doing it. It's personal choice and, I do not think it is reasonable to consider it abusive (hence my opinion).

noviceoftheday Wed 01-Sep-10 20:24:21

I think that's a really good point giveitago. I had my ears pierced (in this country) at one week. I grew up in a loving home with loving parents. I think it would be unfair (and disrespectful) of people who really have suffered abuse at the hands of awful parents to label my upringing as abusive because my parents had my ears pierced.

With DD, we cleaned her ears 3 times a day every day at the site of the piercing for about a month. Lots of people in the family was calling to check that I was doing it to make sure that everything was fine. No one in my family or circle of friends has ever had an infected ear as we know that it is very important to take care of it properly. I appreciate not everyone has the same hygeine standards.

I saw HVs and GPs during that first year and didn't hide her pierced ears. Like me, DD is in a loving home with loving parents and I am presuming that's the reason that no one has called SS. Oh, that and the fact that in London a third of the population are ethnic minorities so perhaps ear piercing isn't automatically equated with child abuse if the parents are not white.

giveitago Wed 01-Sep-10 20:35:10

Yep and Novice I reckon that medics are clued up about this and there's a reason why social services are NOT routinely called to investigate families where little ones have ear pierced.

Possibly because there are many cases where children are hated, neglected, physically, emotionally, mentally and sexually abused etc. Ear piercing in babies is pretty harmless.

I had mine done in equatorial africa oooh some 38 years ago with little in the way of medical care should things go wrong. I had parents who knew how to look after me in that place and I was fine. Just like you novice.

This is an interesting thread. Back in the early 80's when I was at senior school I was considered wild and spoilt because I had what my friends so wanted. I had no concept. So almost 30 years on I find the attitudes of some parents very odd.

I'd never advocate having kids ears' pierced - but so what if they do?

Is their life expectancy sooo dramatically altered because of holes in ears?

Get a grip.

EgyptVanGogh Wed 01-Sep-10 20:58:04

tiny holes in ears

v

formula milk
controlled crying
early childcare
naughty step
forced apologizing
school
religious indoctrination
suffocating 'manners'
etc

Again - WTF is the big deal about pierced ears? I am not buying people actually give a shit about the risk of infection or brief pain. But makes a nice smokescreen for racism/class prejudice while giving brownie points for championing 'justice.' People put their children through hideous emotional pain, English middle class people in particular because you can't fucking live for fear of being called common.

Disgusted by this thread.

Asdashopper Wed 01-Sep-10 21:29:55

EgyptVanGogh Thank you

electra Wed 01-Sep-10 21:56:04

EVG - I agree entirely.

samoa Wed 01-Sep-10 22:01:46

I am really disgusted by this thread and it is getting quite ridiculous.

Lets just leave it! Who cares, how does it change ur life if my baby has earrings, we are not forcing you to do the same to your children. If you find it horrible that is all well and good, but let us just leave it at that. People have different ideas and different ways of living.

I only have to comments, because there are somethings which have shocked me:

1) People who are against ear piercing are basically saying that parents who choose to have their babies ears pierced are chavs. This would, therefore, mean that all Africans, Asians etc are chavs. All I can say is how dare u! I am Nigerian Australian, had my ears pierced when I was 6 weeks and I can tell you my family is far from being chav. But that is not the point, why should I have to prove myself to anyone? My point is that you are calling Africans and Asians and everyone else chavs and that you are being classist.

2) That parents who pierce the ears of their babies are being abusive. OMG u must be joking?! I loved my childhood, there was nothing abuse about it. I have two loving parents and I would not change them for anything in the world.

That is all. Now, to go back to the original OP. If my child was screaming like that and was obviously scared of having her ears pierced I would not force her.

But please people lets calm down. This is getting ridiculous. If you don't like babies with earrings then that is fine, who cares, don't do it to your babies, we are not forcing you. If you think that we are chavs because we decide to do it to our babies then that is your problem.

LucyLouLou Wed 01-Sep-10 22:26:24

Samoa - I think you've missed the point of the last lot of posts if you think it's all about being called a chav.

awwww bless, op last time i was in claires they explained that the piercing policy is to do both at the same time, whether they adhere to that i have no clue, but just to answer your question about other shops age limits/ restrictions and also to add quickley that i have no idea about other studios, but my other half works in a tattoo and body piercing studio and they have a strict policy of no under 13 as all piercings are done with a needle, a consent form needs to be signed and a parent present.

i haven't got an issue with children having them done, not massively keen on babies seems a little mean like they might catch them. i've not had my dd ears pierced as of yet, and at 4 the little mite has done nothing but nag me and her dad however she has a hole in a heart which with piercings can cause infections (along with a few other things) although the docs say it is small and should close up, so we have promised she will get them done then, mind you i have drawn the line at flesh tunnels, she can have them when she's a teenager

Olifin Wed 01-Sep-10 22:39:20

Does encouraging good manners or using the naughty step cause hideous emotional pain EVG, or have I totally misunderstood your post?

noviceoftheday Wed 01-Sep-10 22:40:02

I think a summary of the last few posts is that those of us who had pierced ears as babies were abused as children and are now in turn child abusers if we have inflicted the same on our DDs. The fact that I don't remember any pain, and witnessed for myself that DD didnt have pain doesn't make any difference as my mother is a child abuser and as am I. Oh and culture isn't a good enough defence for such child abuse as we ought to know better in the "modern" world. But that's not racist at all. wink.

LucyLouLou Wed 01-Sep-10 22:42:55

OMG novice. You're slightly exaggerating there. That's your very inflated view of it and not particularly accurate really.

LucyLouLou Wed 01-Sep-10 22:44:58

The part of this thread that has been blown up could more accuately be summed up by saying there was perceived racism because some people took exception to 'cultural traditions' being used as a blanket defence to possibly/possibly not dated practices.

hellooo Wed 01-Sep-10 22:45:17

Ahem.

I was formula fed and I don't remember it causing me any hideous emotiojnal pain EVG - would you like to clarify that?

Or to paraphrase, wtf are you talking about?

electra Wed 01-Sep-10 22:49:47

EVG is talking about the fact that there are plenty of parenting issues that people disagree about, but usually it's not acceptable to judge parents for their choices, for example formula/breast feeding.

And that it shouldn't be any different in the case of ear piercing. People do seem to get right out of their pram about this one in the UK and whoever said it is about far more than momentary pain / risk of infection was right.

electra Wed 01-Sep-10 22:53:00

'The part of this thread that has been blown up could more accuately be summed up by saying there was perceived racism because some people took exception to 'cultural traditions' being used as a blanket defence to possibly/possibly not dated practices.'

No, that is not correct. The language used by some people was perceived as racist by some of us - and was indicative of a general perspective that actually was not specific to ear piercing, and COULD have been voiced on any other thread imo. That was what I objected to.

noviceoftheday Wed 01-Sep-10 22:53:48

I think myself and other posters repeatedly said that we could only talk about our cultural traditions as there were a wide variety of reasons. None of us tried to justify other traditions/rituals and stated that you can't compare ear piercing with female circumcision. There was no blanket defence of ear piercing, what there was, even when I explained my cultural tradition in some detail, was a blanket attack and mutters of child abuse and that this had no place in the modern world.

giveitago Wed 01-Sep-10 22:54:56

But those who are against it - is it because you feel it to be chavvy?

Everyone knows that africans/asians are big on pierced ears when young and it's quite offensive to deem them all chavvy.

It's also offensive to call these people abusers.

Earrings are not essential for children. No one has said that they are but as far as traditions go (if that's why someone wants to do it) it's not particularly bad.

Thank goodness I don't have a daughter.

giveitago Wed 01-Sep-10 22:56:11

Oh - and does chavvy mean 'low class'?

Olifin Wed 01-Sep-10 22:59:26

I think chavvy is usually used to refer to a certain style of dress and behaviour (that which is seen as tasteless or naff), rather than class. I'm not sure though, TBH.

Asdashopper Wed 01-Sep-10 22:59:28

Yes it does

LucyLouLou Wed 01-Sep-10 23:00:11

Tbh, I think the central issue with the piercing is really that there is absolutely no benefit to the child. I'm not sure I would class it with those parenting choices either. I've said before I'm not sure where I stand on the issue of this being a cultural choice, but I do feel that there are no grounds to defend any practices solely on the basis of them being traditional. I stand by that, but I think this has been interesting.

LucyLouLou Wed 01-Sep-10 23:03:12

I think chav, btw, loosely means tasteless and/or vulgar.

electra Wed 01-Sep-10 23:17:11

But chav is a term which people use about others when they wish to assert that they are 'better' than whoever they feel they will label as 'chav'. It is very plainly directed at people and is not just an adjective. Snobbery is very unpleasant.

noviceoftheday Wed 01-Sep-10 23:17:59

Lucy, I agree that there is no physical benefit to the child. However, as explained earlier, some cultures (including mine) would argue spiritual benefit to the child. I hasten to mention it given that one poster dismissed this as nothing more than superstition, although quite frankly one could say that about any religion.

electra Wed 01-Sep-10 23:20:39

I think it could be said that most of us impose our own choices onto our children in various ways, many of which may not have any tangible benefit.

Olifin Wed 01-Sep-10 23:34:39

Not just an adjective, no; 'chav' is a noun but I don't see it as any different from goth, hippy, townie, earth mother, yuppie, hooray henry, yummy mummy etc. ie a word or phrase that is used to describe a person's lifestyle/beliefs/behaviours; not necessarily in a derogatory way.

LucyLouLou Wed 01-Sep-10 23:34:57

Yes novice, that is exactly why I'm not sure where I stand on it. The logical side of me leans towards agreeing with the superstition POV (though I don't think I'd go that far in the description....maybe), but the other side thinks that spiritual belief is important (even though I'm not hugely religious myself). I've never seen it look 'nice' though, would never do it to a child myself and I'm yet to see a reason that would justify it for me.

electra Wed 01-Sep-10 23:40:50

Oh Olifin - of course 'chav' is derogatory - how could you possibly argue otherwise?? I don't think any of us enjoy being reduced to the stereotypes you mention, in any case...

LucyLouLou Wed 01-Sep-10 23:41:46

Some people embrace the chav label, I've seen it with my own surprised eyes .

electra Wed 01-Sep-10 23:45:30

It doesn't matter, it is generally an offensive term imo.

massivemammaries Wed 01-Sep-10 23:49:41

probably worth saying that most child abusers would never regard themselves as such.

If you guys have convinced yourselves that it is fine to make holes in children who are too young to protest, then I guess we can't change your minds.

That doesn't change the fact that many people would consider you to be abhorrently cruel people - Like it or lump it

electra Wed 01-Sep-10 23:57:26

So, if ear piercing is child abuse, why are social/health services not concerned about it MM?? Parents can now be prosecuted for allowing their children to truant from school and are spoken to quite severely if their child is obese.

Cruelty is the deliberate infliction of severe pain. I do not consider ear piercing to be 'cruel'. For me it was certainly far less painful than a vaccination.....

massivemammaries Thu 02-Sep-10 00:06:24

Just because it is socially acceptable, it does not make it right.

For example, it was socially acceptable to treat women as second class for many, many years, it was also socially acceptable for almost anybody to beat a child for hundreds of years too.

If evils are not challenged then society does not progress.

I'm afraid that you cannot justify putting holes in babies unless you are a doctor doing an operation or a nurse giving a necessary injection. It is unnecessary and cruel and a breach of their basic human rights.

Anyway, I must go, I am giving my cat a bikini wax smile

electra Thu 02-Sep-10 00:22:17

'Just because it is socially acceptable, it does not make it right.'

That is true, but it's also not right for you to make harsh judgments about others based upon your personal views about ear piercing.

I don't agree that it's 'cruel' or 'evil' (where is the evidence for these claims?), though accept it is a decision made by me instead of leaving my child to decide for herself. Ear piercing is so mainstream that within that context I don't see much potential for my daughter to grow up and feel that she hates the fact she has pierced ears. The holes are very small and do not damage or disfigure the child's body in any way.

LucyLouLou Thu 02-Sep-10 00:25:46

Just to be clear before I catch flack for this, I am not 100% sure on my POV here. But to be fair electra, it is disfiguring to a child's body, even if it is in a small way. That's not really disputable.

electra Thu 02-Sep-10 00:29:39

'Disfigurement is the state of having one's appearance deeply and persistently harmed'

Really Lucy?? I would dispute that ear piercing fits the above criteria.

LucyLouLou Thu 02-Sep-10 00:42:36

Yes really. It is a permanent change, the holes very rarely close up entirely (at least not without scaring) and should the child later choose not to wear earrings, the holes can and do stretch, causing further disfigurement. Definitions of the word vary, but I would wager that piercings fit almost all of them.

LucyLouLou Thu 02-Sep-10 00:43:45

Sorry, scaring scarring.

carebear321 Thu 02-Sep-10 00:47:18

Its none of your business really, she was just trying 'persuade' the child to have their ears done.
Many many years ago, my sister begged my mum to let her have her ears pierced. So my Mum did mine as well (with a sterile sewing needle). It didn't hurt one bit. Obviously everyones different but maybe the mother really believed that too.
You shouldn't be so quick to judge others parenting choices just because they're different from your own.

schilke Thu 02-Sep-10 01:00:17

I'm dreading the day my children ask to have their ears pierced.... I won't be going with them. I was far too scared to ever have my ears pierced. I just don't get it. Why would anyone want to make a hole in themselves? I used to feel ill at school when people removed their earrings. Dh will have to take them as he used to have 3 earrings.

Why would you persuade your 6 year old to have theirs pierced? Why not wait until they want to have it done? It's a pita at school as they have to be removed for pe lessons, wait until they are older.

BarmyArmy Thu 02-Sep-10 01:04:15

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

Asdashopper Thu 02-Sep-10 07:46:33

[rolls eyes]@ Balmy

PosieParker Thu 02-Sep-10 07:49:34

Electra and Novice, I think both of you have big chips on your shoulders if you interpret my comment, when using culture as an excuse for needlessly putting holes in a child's ear, that I am glad my culture doesn't require any practices that inflict pain as a racist comment. The issue was culture, people insist culture is to blame(which I think is rubbish anyway as I'm sure there are cultural practices you choose to ignore).

I think you should have the comments about me being racist removed, I find them deeply insulting and offensive.

massivemammaries Thu 02-Sep-10 08:02:15

@Electra, you obviously take great offence at the assertion you are a child abuser and will argue black-is-white to make people (yourself) believe it is untrue.

I do understand where you are coming from but you can't really justify butting holes in kids. It is an abuse of your authority over them and quite disgusting.

Of course you won't believe your daughter will grow up an be disturbed that she has been disfigured in this way - thats' because you have convinced yourself that you are right, evn to the point of hiding behind society and culture - Sad.

Eve4Walle Thu 02-Sep-10 08:02:31

DD is 6 and she asked to have her ears pierced this summer. She had it done on the first Saturday of the holidays, we've done everything we were told to do in terms of cleaning them etc and they have healed just fine. She didn't cry or even flinch when it was done, and is adamant that it didn't hurt her.

She is wearing tiny, tiny studs which she is now able to put in and remove herself. I was 6 when I had my ears pierced and I, like DD, wasn't forced into it, it's what I wanted.

TBH, the I view the word Chav as being as bad as calling a traveller 'pikey' - it's not on and I hate hearing it and would never use it to describe someone.

PosieParker Thu 02-Sep-10 08:12:26

I'm against it because it looks tacky, naff and like a child needs enhancement, mine do not as they are beautiful without adornments.

Eve4Walle Thu 02-Sep-10 08:30:23

That's your opinion Posie. Does it look naff on adults too?

massivemammaries Thu 02-Sep-10 08:37:09

yes it does

Asdashopper Thu 02-Sep-10 08:39:00

<twirls naff chavscum earrings>

Asdashopper Thu 02-Sep-10 08:42:36

I think this thread got the full house wink

mrz Thu 02-Sep-10 09:09:20

Back to the OP

If the child was clearly distressed and didn't want the other ear pierced it was silly to try and put pressure on her ... better IMHO to remove the stud and let the ear heal until the child is older.
As to the rights and wrongs of ear piercing it has to be a matter of personal choice. Personally I wouldn't allow my daughter to get her ears pierced until she was in her teens but that's my choice.

5DollarShake Thu 02-Sep-10 09:19:14

Oh come on - is everything that adults do, particularly in the pursuit of beauty and adornment, fair game for children and babies too? confused

Next you'll be telling me that we should be St. Tropez-ing, hair-extending and fake-nailing our kids too.

Of course certain things look naff on babies that won't necessarily look naff on adults. Yes, it's a matter of opinion, but a fairly widely held one in certain cultures...

electra Thu 02-Sep-10 09:32:29

'@Electra, you obviously take great offence at the assertion you are a child abuser and will argue black-is-white to make people (yourself) believe it is untrue.'

Not at all. If you think that I am abusive because I've had my child's ears pierced then it really is not possible for me to care less. Just because I don't agree with you does not mean that I am arguing black-is-white. Who made you an authority on the absolute truth of anything? You will also see that I accept that other people don't agree with me.

PosieParker - if you think that my posts are offensive then report them to MN HQ yourself. I stand by what I said and I will not ask for them to be removed, nor will I allow you to presume the right to tell me what I can and cannot be offended by.

samoa Thu 02-Sep-10 10:06:46

This has become quite an offensive thread. I feel like I am back at school in the UK, where other kids used to bully me and my sister just because we looked different (different hair, darker skin and spoke another language). Thank you for reminding me why I was so happy in the end to leave.

TO be quite frank my dd was more distraught after trying controlled crying than after having her ears pierced.

But u know, if you believe that we are chavs and child abusers then that is just your problem. If it really upsets you then call child services. As i said before nobody is trying to impose their beliefs on you or your babies. So there is no need to become aggressive. We are just trying to explain why we decided to pierce the ears of our babies, we are not trying to convince you.

BASTA!

Cannot decide what I'm more amazed by: the crapness of this thread or the fact that I agree with PP's last comment. First time for everything wink.

massivemammaries Thu 02-Sep-10 10:34:53

@samoa - sorry you find it offensive but personally, I would be most offended if you punched holes in my ears against my will

noviceoftheday Thu 02-Sep-10 10:38:59

@Posie - please feel free to report any of my posts to MNHQ.

@Barmy - "There is a direct relationship between the age at which a female's ears are pierced and (a) the age at which she loses her virginity, (b) the grades she gains at school (GCSE/'A' Level), (c) the number of benefits she is claiming by the age of 21."
My mother had my ears pierced when I was a week old and..... a) I lost my virginity at 18, b) I have 10 GCSEs at grade A and 4 A levels at Grade A, c) I have never claimed benefits but pay income tax of over £200,000 each year. Yes, I am clearly chavscum.

samoa Thu 02-Sep-10 10:41:39

massivemammaries - that is fine. but i am not trying to do it to u or your child. what i find offensive is the name calling from some of the posters, none of us ear piercing believers are calling u guys names. If some of u really think that we are child abusers then u had better call child services. I would not sit idly by, wasting my time on mnet if I knew a child was being abused.

samoa Thu 02-Sep-10 10:45:00

noviceoftheday - i would not waste ur time trying to explain urself. some of these posters have set ideas and are quite judgemental. i would not waste my breath with them

grapeandlemon Thu 02-Sep-10 10:57:53

In answer to a post waaaay back about my friend who lost her earlobe after being pierced as an infant. It became infected with an impetigic sore, so nothing at all to do with keeping it clean it wouldn't have made any difference as the infection lived on her skin surface. One earlobe was gone and the other quite disfigured with scar tissue.

This may be unusual but why would anyone risk it? It certainly put me off. I was 21 before I pierced my ears.

PosieParker Thu 02-Sep-10 11:14:27

I'm loving the idea that novice and electra choose to be offended by comments that are not racist but like to see them that way, very convenient and yet they feel calling someone a racist is not offensive.

The irony is that electra and novice are asking people to understand culture as a valid reason for puncturing children's ears, but apparently if I say I want to celebrate my own then I am racist.

Too stupid for words.

samoa Thu 02-Sep-10 11:16:32

I would not call what is happen here racist. But I would call it ethnocentric.

PosieParker Thu 02-Sep-10 11:25:38

It's not ethnocentric, it's ear piercing. I couldn't care less what culture the child comes from it looks vile. You can dress the objections up however you please but for most it comes down to three things, not wanting to permanently alter children without their adult consent, not wanting to hurt our children for no good reason and that it looks horrid.

Culture is a poor excuse for bad practices.

giveitago Thu 02-Sep-10 11:26:53

"There is a direct relationship between the age at which a female's ears are pierced and (a) the age at which she loses her virginity, (b) the grades she gains at school (GCSE/'A' Level), (c) the number of benefits she is claiming by the age of 21."

Yep like good A levels, , not having underage sex or underage drinking or smoking and not claiming benefit.

Oh and then that poster rants about the 'chavscum'. Well, OK - but I think that it's accepted that chav is word used to mean lower class and she's basically writing off a section of the population who actually do the best in terms of education, behaviour etc. That poster is just being nasty.

Some of you may think it looks tacky but perhaps what you mean it that it would awful on your daughter.

It looked great on me and I sure it does on electra's and novice's kids too.

I'm offended for mum - she called me and I told her about this. She doesn't think she was abusive at all. I agree. At the age of 71 she just laments how people in this country are becoming sooo provincial and narrow minded.

You know electra and novice - we all like to moan about our parents but after this thread I'm so glad for the parents that I have and the fact that they were nothing like these posters.

Imagine growing up with that mindset at your guidance.

My ds doesn't know what a chav as it's not the language I use.

PosieParker Thu 02-Sep-10 11:30:10

giveitago.....what a stupid post.

Is there a club for people who like to misinterpret conversations to suit their martyrdom status?

And I mean it looks tacky on all children, without exception.

electra Thu 02-Sep-10 11:32:49

PP - your implication was that UK culture is somehow superior/more enlightened which I object to. There is nothing stupid about that and it seems it's you slinging insults, not me. Where exactly did I say 'Posie Parker, you are a racist'?? I do not recall saying that anywhere but I addressed some of the language you used (which is also used by other people, often - which I consider to be a problem mostly because some people don't want to acknowledge the offense that they could cause). I will say again that I was making a general point about language - which could have been on any other thread.

Nobody has suggested that you cannot 'celebrate' your culture or that you should pierce your child's ears, though you apparently think it's ok to insult everyone who disagrees with your views and cast harsh judgments.

I don't like the way it looks on children under about 12, so wouldn't do it personally. Not something I give a lot of effort thinking about tbh.
What makes me angry in the OP is a child, faced with the reality of the pain, being forced to continue. That is abuse imo.

Altinkum Thu 02-Sep-10 11:34:14

Posie you have said you dislike it, and I agree, however your being incredibly rude and judgemental on other peoples culture and believes. It not up to you to decide its wrong for them, it is however up to you to decide its wrong for your children.
its incredibly ignorant and arrogant of you to impose your opinions in this way.

and I dislike ear piercing personally

to anybody who is saying this is "child abuse" come with me for a week in my work, and you will understand what a ridiculous, ignorant and idiotic statement that is.

I thought I was on a site for "apparent" adults, however all I see is bunch of school girls.

PosieParker Thu 02-Sep-10 11:38:17

Still away with the fairies then.

I said that as an English Atheist I have no culture which requires.....

And that is a fact, I haven't used negative language about anyone else's culture. If you assume that I mean by that that my culture is more enlightened then perhaps it is but that's your projection.

Altinkum Thu 02-Sep-10 11:42:01

who's away with the fairies?

That's the point PP, your only seeing in from you're own culture, fortunately the world doesnt revolve just around one culture, belief, religions etc... we can all live among each other and respect others faiths, even if we dont agree with them.

anyway I cba, I do agree with you that it is vile, however that's MY opinion, and one that I wont force upon anybody else.

It is abusive to pressurise a child into undergoing a nonessential cosmetic procedure if they change their mind.
I think ear-piercing should still be done in pharmacies etc, not high street stores where the training in hygiene etc is likely to be minimal.

Altinkum Thu 02-Sep-10 11:48:22

Beer technically yes, and I would agree, however ear piercing in babies is not, by the law anyway.

Im sure if a child disputes, is in too much stress, then the piercer should follow her god given brain and refuse the piercing.

PosieParker Thu 02-Sep-10 11:48:40

I don't see that respecting someone's culture/faith has to include the blanket respect of things that are pretty awful. I don't agree with the tribeswomen who send their crying child at the first sign of puberty to have sex with men in a nearby village who they've never met, I don't agree with FGM, I don't agree with circumcision, I don't agree with filing teeth into a point, I don't agree with ensuring a hymen has split, I don't agree with little girls covering their heads, or forced marriages.....there's loads of stuff that are human issues disguised as cultural practices and therefore deemed acceptable.

mrz Thu 02-Sep-10 11:49:33

samoa I don't think ear piercing is confined to any ethnic group or culture so to claim that everyone who finds piercing infants ears objectionable is racist or ethnocentric is perhaps slightly myopic

PosieParker Thu 02-Sep-10 11:49:55

Alkinkum, Have you ever been into a Claire's? I'm not sure you could rely on a sixteen shop assistant to stand up to a parent who insists her child should have her ears pierced.

giveitago Thu 02-Sep-10 11:55:29

giveitago.....what a stupid post.

Is there a club for people who like to misinterpret conversations to suit their martyrdom status?

And I mean it looks tacky on all children, without exception

Oh thus spake PP who still doesn't get the fact that calling us names and telling us how to feel about it is really clever.

FFS - they way a few of you talk is as though you'd actually notice earrings on kids and think that family was abusive and chavvy? You'd therefore have nothing in common with the parents and possibly not be 100% about a friendship.

I find that very disturbing.

My ds makes friends with people who cross his path - I've never bothered to notice whether a little girl has earring or not and if she did I would think nothing about it. It would never once cross my mind that this girl is a victim of anything.

You are the guys who are one the one hand martyring these girls and then also calling them chavs.

PosieParker Thu 02-Sep-10 11:57:51

Calling you names? confused I think not.

Another nonsensical post then.

Altinkum Thu 02-Sep-10 12:02:47

PP, I cant be arse to debate ALL culture beliefs, you go ahead, you seem to think your correct anyway hmm.

somethings will never be acceptable, somethings will, even by the law, FACT! you accept it or you dont, however dont impose you're views in this manner, one it will get you know where, and secondly it does no purpose, other than to cause animosity and ill feeling.

PosieParker Thu 02-Sep-10 12:06:16

I do think I'm right.

Altinkum Thu 02-Sep-10 12:07:51

evidently lol.

paisleyleaf Thu 02-Sep-10 12:30:16

"nothing in common with the parents and possibly not be 100% about a friendship"

Don't most people make judgements like that all the time though. It's fair enough that you'll have more in common with some people than others. I think I do see those pierced children as victims. I'd obviously be more tolerant if it seemed a cultural choice, but as far as the fashion victims go I would feel the parents had very different priorities to me. There's a lad at preschool with a mohican; it seems rotten, like his parents have set him up.

awwwwww, nothing wrong with a mohawk, i'm waiting in keen anticipation for the day i can do my ds's although doubt his school will allow it hmm when he gets there.

giveitago Thu 02-Sep-10 12:48:21

I'm no victim.

I don't like hair gel in my boy's hair and I see lots of his friends with Beckham looks - I think it's naff but certinaly not chavvy as they are not better or worse than my kid - they are kids plain and simple. I'd view a mohican the same way. I personally cannot stand little girls with long hair and bows and clips and anything pink. But they or their parents are not chavvy to me - just don't have good taste in my view.

Yes of course I judge - I'd worry alot less about ds befriending a little girl with earrings than I would a friend with blinkered and judgy parents as kids are impressionable and I wouldn't want my little boy to lose his innocence under their influence. I want my boy to have a big life.

PosieParker Thu 02-Sep-10 13:29:37

Can't stand little girls with long hair and who like pink....erm isn't that nearly all little girls?

paisleyleaf Thu 02-Sep-10 13:33:47

The pink thing is usually a choice they've made for themselves too (like liking fifi flowertot or my little ponies)). And it's a phase they can move on from simply.

giveitago Thu 02-Sep-10 13:36:45

No Posie - I don't think it is. But again, their and their parent's choice. But that's my OPINION. So not worth much and it makes no difference to me if ds wants to befriend a pink clad girl. Why would it.

But it's your (generic, not your's in particular) comments about abuse and chavviness that makes me honestly feel that kids of parents with your views would not make suitable friends for my child. I want to keep his innocence as long as possible and that, to me, means him befriending people he just gets on with regardless what they look like or their cultural background. It's done him fine so far. That IS innocence. The laden views that some posters have disturb me only in relation to my ds.

Befriending and spending time with kids who have parents with mindsets so set means it would mean (to me) that his outlook would be influenced by people who (I feel) are blinkered and limiting. Again, I want him to have a big life in an increasingly small world.

grapeandlemon Thu 02-Sep-10 15:39:14

"I think ear-piercing should still be done in pharmacies etc, not high street stores where the training in hygiene etc is likely to be minimal."

totally agree with this

EgyptVanGogh Thu 02-Sep-10 15:46:03

'Not wanting to permanently alter children without their consent...'

And you don't do this, Posie? You really don't permanently alter your children without their consent?

Every. Decision. YOU. Make. Permanently alters your children. Vaccination? Discipline methods? Food? School? Television?

muggglewump Thu 02-Sep-10 15:55:44

DD's ears were pierced in a pharmacy when she was 13 months old.
I thought then it looked good, and still do now that she's 9, though she rarely wears earrings, she doesn't want to often.

I really don't see the big deal.
It didn't hurt her (and given that she was 13 months, I;d have known), and nothing bad has ever happened because of the holes in her ears.

I honestly fail to get the big hoo ha over it.

I may have a few so called chav qualities, in fact I know I do, I watch soaps and shop at Asda, but at the same time I eat olives, and we're having homemade Baba Ganoush as part of our meal tonight. (Lamb Kofta, sweetcorn fritters, Tzatziki and a green salad. Thank you Sam Stern)

Why such judging, really why?

Do people honestly believe that all children who have their ears pierced when young come from horrible families, with parents who are just desperate to mutilate them?

bruffin Thu 02-Sep-10 16:11:44

I come from a culture where piercing babies ears is the norm. I was given earrings as christening presents. My mum refused point blank to have ours done until we were old enough to make that decision ourselves. I was 13 and I have had lots of problems with them because I can only wear gold, even the greek earrings I had as a baby can cause them to swell up.
My daughter had hers done first for her 10th birthday ended up in a&e with the whole earring stuck inside her ear when it caught in a towel and was pulled backwards through the earlobe, that was within a week of them being pierced.

She had them done again when she was 12 and we have no problems.
Piercing may be done culturally for babies but it is totally unnecessary. It inflicts pain on a child just for appearances sake. The a&e department statistics are quite scary as it is on average they see a piercing related problem about once a week in just one hospital. Why inflict something on a baby that can so easily go wrong.

bruffin Thu 02-Sep-10 16:17:04

Ans bless her my Mother decided to finally have her ears pierced when she was in her late 60s and my MIL in her late 70s, they persueded each other, so why the rush to do it within weeks of babies being born, I don't know grin

massivemammaries Thu 02-Sep-10 17:26:32

@ egypt

Every. Decision. YOU. Make. Permanently alters your children. Vaccination? Discipline methods? Food? School? Television?

what a load of bollocks - weakest argument ever.

has it occurred to you that you HAVE to FEED your children? you HAVE to discipline them, you have to educate them.you have to make a decision about vaccination and what media they are exposed to because the issues are more salient.

You do NOT HAVE to make decisions about punching holes in them (or for that matter dying their hair or threading their eyebrows) while they are children - those decisions are for them to make when they can make them in a balanced and proper way.

I winder if you are also planning to choose your DCs HE course, subsequent career path and life partner while it is still a child?

No? so why are you making decisions they will be able to make for themselves, for them?

electra Thu 02-Sep-10 17:36:25

MM - I do see your point that some choices are more necessary to make for children than others. But it's not 'bollocks' that we all project our views and values onto our children whether intentionally or not. And I'd say that in the scheme of life ear piercing is a minor, mainstream thing. So really don't understand the anger and vitriol about it. I knew that this thread would end up this way though because I've seen people's reactions in RL about it.

giveitago Thu 02-Sep-10 17:55:10

Bruffin - noone is saying it's necessary, but what some of us are saying is that's it's no big deal. Some of us are saying it's gross, chavvy and abusive.

massivemammaries Thu 02-Sep-10 18:00:40

But it's not 'bollocks' that we all project our views and values onto our children whether intentionally or not.

No, but what is a load of bollocks is the attempt to draw a direct comparison between the need to feed ones' children and the need to punch holes in their ears

And I'd say that in the scheme of life ear piercing is a minor, mainstream thing

and there is that "mainstream" argument again!

"just because many people do it, it must be ok"

Why do so many of us enter adulthood and leave our brains at the doorstep?

I remember Corporal punishment (by almost anybody) being mainstream - must have been ok?

Capital punishment is mainstream in many countries - must be ok?

Sex and arranged marriage involving 11 year olds is still mainstream in some countries - must be fine.

Recreational drug use is mainstream in loads of places - spiffing

Follow the status quo - baby, you cant go wrong.

Get a grip

Asdashopper Thu 02-Sep-10 18:06:23

Blimey calm down ....wait till they want their belly buttons piercing, or snakebites grin

EgyptVanGogh Thu 02-Sep-10 18:10:33

Massive, you spectacularly miss my point.

Strongest argument ever, actually. Yes. We HAVE to make decisions for our children. But WHICH decisions should we make? WHAT should we feed them? HOW should we discipline them? WHAT media? WHETHER to vaccinate? HOW to educate? The implications of these decisions are huge and, like tiny little holes, stick around for life. Tiny little holes will rarely end up causing a lifetime of social incompetence, poor self-discipline, low self-esteem, violence & criminality, psychological problems, etc.

Many, many decisions we make for our children are unnecessary. It is not necessary for children to watch television, or play video games, for example. Yet these have been proven to be capable of harming children. It is not NECESSARY for children to be vaccinated. It is almost never necessary to feed our children commercially produced formula milk. It is not necessary for children to go to school, but most of us send them. It is not necessary to let babies 'cry it out' etc. but people justify it by saying it was 'necessary' for their 'sanity.' It certainly isn't necessary to take children on skiing holidays - some of them break limbs and some even die. Some drown during unnecessary play in swimming pools. Etc.

noviceoftheday Thu 02-Sep-10 18:21:52

@MM - Those are all very interesting examples but none of those happened to me. However, I did have my ears pierced as a baby, and I am absolutely fine with it.

I am bi-cultural. There are things about my non-English culture that can bug me but my ears being pierced as a baby just isn't one of them, never has been and neveer will be. I wasn't abused and grew up in a loving home with a loving family. Indeed I believe that it is disrespctful to those who really have been abused to imply that I am an abuse victim because everyone who has their ears pierced is a victim or an abused child. I haven't been brain washed and would regard myself as an intelligent, educated and professional woman.

PosieParker Thu 02-Sep-10 18:28:46

Egypt....most of my decisions for and about my dcs are in their best interests, ear piercing is in nobody's best interests. I have them vaccinated to save them from fatal and disfiguring disease, I feed them good home cooked food because it's good for them, I teach them respect and good manners, they are kind and helpful, they are educated at school because it's necessary to progress further within this society.

Basically your argument is flawed because there is no upside for a baby to have it's ears pierced, none what so ever, no benefit for the baby......unlike food, milk, education, vaccinations, etc.

giveitago Thu 02-Sep-10 18:32:35

Massive - I'm going to say it - you want to say that one particular region of the world who's people do really bloody well in the Uk, better than the majority, and a region that's on the up when our country is on the complete down - that's millions of girls - are they abused? Do you actually pity all these doctors, dentists and industrialists do you.

They seem to be doing absolutely fine to me and I doubt they'd consider themselves chavs or abused.

I am not for ONE second saying your daughter should have her ears pierced but what I question is the rationale here - does it make that girl abused, downtrodden, resentful of her parents - no it doesn't - so why do YOU care.

Is this very clever girl earning a huge salary in a professional job worried about her ear piercing. I very much bloody doubt it.

It might not be for you but why do people on this post want to tell us that we're abused and chavvy - even if some of us shop at 'asda' etc. We're bloody not.

I understand your point of view - I have no time for it personally - as I think that there are people on this thread unwilling to think outside their own teeny weeny experience of culture and global ways.

I prefer my way - I've done great out of it as will my ds as long as he doesn't get too involved with offspring of narrow minded ignorant people who use boden as a benchmark for everything. He starts school in a few weeks and I'll watching for this.

paisleyleaf Thu 02-Sep-10 18:43:40

giveitago, you said earlier that if you had a DD you'd "want them to have their ears pierced young but at the same time I'd be scared for them (as I hate seeing kids scared)".

It's that.
Some people don't like to think of children being hurt and scared. And when they see the earrings that is what they think of. (I know I do).

Why did your mum buy you most of the toy shop afterwards?

Obviously they grow up to be doctors/dentists/whatever - but an adult with piercings doesn't look the same as a child who's had it done to them.

massivemammaries Thu 02-Sep-10 20:21:48

@giveitago

actually I have never used the word chav on here nor suggested that even abused children can't do well.

I am simply saying that you cannot justify boring holes into babies for no other reason than your own self satisfaction.

But if you really haven't grown up enough to stop treating your kids like barbie dolls, I don't expect you will want to understand that

giveitago Thu 02-Sep-10 20:22:33

Oh paisley - you're just like the very dumb poster who reckoned I'd been abused and suggested I tell my mother this - just because I'd been pierced on a table with curved sciccors.

This is what gets me - people see a story with bits missing - make up the other bits and come up with a load of bollocks. Pure 100% ignorance based on what you like to believe about other people and other countries.

OK - listen and listen well paisley - we were in Tanzania - staying with relatives - rich fucking relatives- my piercing was done there in c. 1972. No surprises there were no guns.

Is it OK to get your ears pierced in a place called Claire (is it that awful place that sells metal stuff all at uder £2 - so you'd get your kids pierced). But not to have it done abroad under the eye of a qualified doctor who used an ironing board as a table and curved scissors and sterilised cotton; This is why my hole is tiny and clean and neat - because I had it done properly.

Yep my mum took me to a toy shop after (yep - they have toy shops in Tanzania) and we bought everything up because my family were wealthy and WE COULD AFFORD IT and in those days and in that country that's what you did to demonstrate your wealth.

FFS - why else would this happen you wierdos - because they were fucking rich - not because she was feeling bad because she 'ABUSED ME'.

My god - I'm shouting here - I CANNOT BELIEVE THE IGNORANCE.

I worry for many of you - I really do - I'm assuming here you've never been outside the uk let alone europe. Bloody hell.

Yep - I don't like to see los suffer. I wouldn't pierce my boy but I would pierce my girl but I don't have one so I don't know. I most probably would because I don't have an issue with it and I doubt any daughter of mine would grow up to resent me because of fucking earrings.

I despair - I really do.

massivemammaries Thu 02-Sep-10 20:26:35

This is why my hole is tiny and clean and neat

LMFAO - does the sun shine from it as well?

massivemammaries Thu 02-Sep-10 20:30:37

and by the way...... who was it that brought money into it? I also have money but I don't feel the need to use the fact to claim the high ground! BTW, rich kids get abused just as poor kids do - maybe that is a shock to you

electra Thu 02-Sep-10 20:33:19

But, although I agree of course that ear piercing is unnecessary, some of you are using language that massively overstates and misrepresents the issue.

'punching holes in' - suggests violence and whoever it was who said it was disfigurement well that is clearly ridiculous. Although I have no problem with people thinking it looks awful (I think it looks nice - that is my personal view) - some of the responses I've seen here are clearly not measured ones.

Liv77 Thu 02-Sep-10 20:35:32

massivemammaries - This is why my hole is tiny and clean and neat
Just saw this on the top of the last hour postings before seeing the topic heading - PMSL, quite disappointed to find out it was only about ear-piercing grin

massivemammaries Thu 02-Sep-10 20:37:47

a piercing gun is essentially a punching machine so I don't think the use of that phrase is inappropriate.

You would like it to be understated because you think it is harmless and a good idea.

A bit like a bacon lover who doesnt like to think about the little piggies being slaughtered!

Asdashopper Thu 02-Sep-10 20:39:34

Punching holes? boring holes? Child abuse?

Dramatic much

electra Thu 02-Sep-10 20:40:31

massivemammaries - please stop telling me what I think. You have no right, it is rude and you are in any case wrong. I don't want anyone to 'understate' anything. I don't need the approval of others to live my life as I see fit.

giveitago Thu 02-Sep-10 20:43:48

MASSIVE - do you think I was abused? Am I disfigured. Has it affected my life outcomes.

If so, why? Please tell me why.

I'm responding the fact that people are horrified that I had my piercing on an ironing board - they are making huge assumptions which are very very wrong. My ears were pierced before this place called clare or claire's

Toys to appease an abused child? Heck no - just to spoil me - that's it - what's the bloody issue.

How on earth is this abusive to me.

What does LMFAO mean exactly?

Yep but I'm told that I've bought money into it - just telling you why toys were bought for me - not to soothe my abused brow but because my folks wanted to treat me - they could so they did. Basically if you could afford toys in tanzania almost 40 years ago - you just bought them. Different place, different era.

massivemammaries Thu 02-Sep-10 20:48:30

@ giveitago ..... well you plainly have issues even if you do yave money and a perfect little hole smile

massivemammaries Thu 02-Sep-10 20:50:32

would you like to know what the funniest thing about all this is??

giveitago Thu 02-Sep-10 20:51:02

Massive - if you are so convinced I was abused I must be in denial. Can you convince me that I am abused. Also how exactly am I a chav?

electra Thu 02-Sep-10 20:54:52

giveitago - some people are obviously so judgmental that they cannot accept that their perspective on life is not the only one. They make themselves feel better by insulting others and telling us who we are and what we think. I'm not going to engage with it any more.

noviceoftheday Thu 02-Sep-10 20:57:02

@MM - we have said over and over that we weren't abused as children and that it is disrespctful to people who really have been abused. others have come on and said the same thing, including those who don't like piercing. I can only assume that you think we are too stupid to recognise that we have been abused. Is assumption correct?

muggglewump Thu 02-Sep-10 20:57:32

Lol@punching machine.

It's all just getting a bit silly now.

It may be technically something that punches holes in the ears, but you say it as if it's a rusty old hole punch in the back office of a Bad Place

I had my ears punched, all 10 holes, oh and my nose too, and I'm still standing.

massivemammaries Thu 02-Sep-10 20:58:15

@ giveitago ..... when exactly did I call you a chav?

massivemammaries Thu 02-Sep-10 21:01:08

@ novice
assumption is not correct

but I really do think some of you are very very funny grin

noviceoftheday Thu 02-Sep-10 21:05:13

@MM - but you still say that we as individuals have been abused? even though we say we haven't?

massivemammaries Thu 02-Sep-10 21:06:22

you really don't get it do you?

giveitago Thu 02-Sep-10 21:06:37

Novice and electra - I'm just saddened and somewhat shocked. I'm im my 40's and I've never come across such horrible judgments when we are not judging them.

It's we will judge you based on our considerable predjuces and then you have no right to feel bad and if you take it as an insult you are 'mistaken' or pulling the race card. Nice. Very nice.

massivemammaries Thu 02-Sep-10 21:09:22

Christ - Do I need to spell it out to you people?

Asdashopper Thu 02-Sep-10 21:25:49

I think they get your point MM ,you have made it enough times wink

massivemammaries Thu 02-Sep-10 21:26:29

I can only assume that you think we are too stupid to recognise that we have been abused. Is assumption correct?

you are, however, too stupid to realise when you are being wound up ..... fond of our high horses aren't we ladies?

electra Thu 02-Sep-10 21:43:59

Actually MM - you are the one fond of posting patronising assumptions and arrogantly telling people what we think.

Furthermore, since you seem unaware of the fact, calling people 'stupid' is a rude and inarticulate way to get your point across.

And on that note biscuit I have stated my position without calling those who disagree with me stupid.

<hides thread>

massivemammaries Thu 02-Sep-10 22:03:50

hmmm..... point went so far over her head it showed up on radar ...... I don't disagree, I don't care!!!! really funny how folks get so wound up and up themselves

HopHopALady Thu 02-Sep-10 22:29:16

At the risk of interjecting at a "heated" moment, can I just ask does anyone know why it is custom in some Spanish/Italian cultures to get their babies ears pierced? There is a baby in my DD's nursery who has her ears pierced (she has South American parents) and I was wondering if there was some cultural reason or do her parents just think it looks cute, or sweet, or something.

I haven't followed the entire thread, so apologies if this has already been covered.

Asdashopper Thu 02-Sep-10 22:33:08

HophopAlady ...please noooooooooooooo

HopHopALady Thu 02-Sep-10 22:43:47

confused

Sorry if being thick/annoying...!

HopHopALady Thu 02-Sep-10 22:44:13

Explique s'il vous plait...

BarmyArmy Thu 02-Sep-10 22:49:04

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

Asdashopper Thu 02-Sep-10 22:49:14

read the last few posts smile

blush at laughing involuntarily at BA

Asdashopper Thu 02-Sep-10 22:51:08

BarmyArmy ..been at the sherry again love?smile

baitedbreath Thu 02-Sep-10 23:22:36

I don't see anything wrong with getting childrens ears pierced, you can pick out a nice tattoo while your at it.

PosieParker Fri 03-Sep-10 07:51:52

giveitago Thu 02-Sep-10 21:06:37
Novice and electra - I'm just saddened and somewhat shocked. I'm im my 40's and I've never come across such horrible judgments when we are not judging them.

It's we will judge you based on our considerable predjuces and then you have no right to feel bad and if you take it as an insult you are 'mistaken' or pulling the race card. Nice. Very nice."

Race card.....because you accused people of being racist.

I have travelled extensively still doesn't mean I think culture has carte blanch freedom to do whatever it wants to children.

giveitago Fri 03-Sep-10 08:22:28

PP - this is one of those threads where I don't think there's a wrong or a right.

Some mums decide to get their lo's ears pierced - some don't.

No amount of accusations of it being naff/chavscum/abusive is really going to change/nfluence anyone. None of us wants to ever say to non piercers - you are wrong or your kids look unadorned etc because we don't really care.

I'm genuinely surpised by the depth of feeling of some of the posters. Those are the ones on their high horse.

I don't actually care either way because they are just a pair of bloody earings that I happened to have before the majority of girls I knew. So I must have been chavy when a child but now I'm not because I'm an adult and the majority of people them. At what age I stopped being 'chavvy' I don't know - depends on what posters think is a suitable age for kids to have them.

They are a pair of earrings. They do not affect your life chances at all.

My lo starts school next week and if I've nothing else better to do I will look out to see if any of the kids have earrings. Not something I've ever bothered to notice but cause I don't think it's an important indicator of a child's wellbeing or upbringing.

HopHopALady Fri 03-Sep-10 13:04:47

Am a bit worried I have given the wrong impression. Am not judging, just genuinely curious if there is a culture thing about ear piercing in some countries, as I think someone alluded to it in one of the original posts in this thread (something about Italy). blush

HopHopALady Fri 03-Sep-10 14:18:40

oh dear... had only read first few posts and this page when asking my original question. Have just been going over some of page 11 and realise why asdashopper responded to me as she did (and quite right too asdashopper - I am a numpty). Will read on and bow out.

paisleyleaf Fri 03-Sep-10 14:20:43

grin

It happens HopHop, I think having one long page should be the default setting. Posters often skip pages.

Asdashopper Fri 03-Sep-10 16:09:26

Sorry HopHop grin

HopHopALady Fri 03-Sep-10 21:21:38

@asdashopper

Hey, nothing to apologise for! Having read most of pages 1 thru 6, I now feel like a right wally!!! Have most certainly learnt a valuable MN lesson here - read thread as thoroughly as possible before asking questions...

I'm now left wondering what BA wanted to say earlier ("Message deleted by Mumsnet") as I fear my extreme numptyness might have caused an explosive reaction somewhere...

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