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Experiences of CMPI and night waking in toddler please!

(25 Posts)
Pinkpowderpuff Sat 10-Oct-15 19:52:23

I still don't know if my 18mo is dairy intolerant as the only symptom that collerates with consuming dairy is frequent night waking. Can this be the only symptom? He used to be quite a sicky baby until 6mo and a frequent feeder (BF) Also bowel movements can fluctuate between firm and soft. He sometimes gets a tiny patch if eczema on his chin - just a few millimetres in size. He hasn't had cows milk dairy since 8mo but has always had goats milk formula, which he seems fine on. He had got better recently, that is, only waking briefly once or twice but the last couple of weeks I've been introducing dairy in the form of baked goods and he seems to be quite unsettled at night between 11pm and 2am. Also the minuscule patch of eczema has reappeared. He doesn't have wind or seem to have stomach ache, he is just very unsettled - dropping off to sleep then being awake again and crying/moaning until I check on him. He isn't teething atm as he has 16 teeth already and too early for two year molars. Any ideas/opinions? Could the night waking be CMPI related or am I clutching at straws?

Bishboshbash Sat 10-Oct-15 19:54:48

My ds is definitely more unsettles at night if he has had too much dairy (we are currently doing the milk ladder and that is my way of knowing we have reached our limit)

Pinkpowderpuff Sat 10-Oct-15 20:02:47

About the milk ladder, if they seem OK with one stage but not the next 'rung' up, do you stop completely or just go back to the stage they were OK on?

ilovetosleep Sat 10-Oct-15 20:08:45

Are you me?! DS is 18 months and we have just started the milk ladder. I'm in a bit of a state about it all tbh, it's very stressful!
My DS also has a tiny patch of eczema (on his tummy) which has reappeared, and he sleep is atrocious (difference being that it always has been, and he is teething so I don't know whether to take that into account) I have been told many times that sleep is affected by intolerances (but not by HCPs!) - in fact I started a thread about this the other day.

We seemed fine with the malted biscuits but have been trying out muffins for the last few days. He doesn't really like them which is tricky and last night and today we have had quite nasty nappies. Not horrendous, but softer than normal and a bit more up the back. Last week on the malted milk they were much firmer than normal. He seems happy and pain free in the daytime, so again, am wondering if the nappies are teething related.

It's a minefield and I feel for you. I hate this process, he is gluten and egg free too, and I dread the next few years of all these trials and reintroductions sad

Good luck!

Bishboshbash Sat 10-Oct-15 20:10:59

You stay at the level they can manage to help build up their tolerance.

Pinkpowderpuff Sat 10-Oct-15 20:42:15

ilovetosleep we do seem to be in similar situations! We were also fine on the malted milk but went tits up at the digestive so didn't get far at all!

Sleep improved at 11mo to 3 - 6 wakings a night then improved again at 16mo to 1 - 3 wakings. I don't know if it's because he is getting better with age or what. He has been a horrendous teether - getting his teeth early and one after the other, which definitely hasn't helped with sleep. He doesn't feed in the night, or come in to our bed. In fact, we don't even pick him out of his cot! So no particular 'bad' habits. I'm doing the whole CMPI/milk ladder thing on my own as the HV said poor sleep was no way the main symptom of a good issue.

I've got a 6yr old too and hate not being able to make the family meals we used to enjoy, which included plenty of milk, cream and cheese!

ilovetosleep Sat 10-Oct-15 22:04:28

We are in a v similar situation, yes. I also have an older one (4yo) and we all miss mac n cheese, pizza, fish pie etc. However you're doing better than me at sleep. Similarly DS2s wakings have reduced from 8-6-4-3 but I do feed him when he wakes. Its the only way! Although he does self settle at bedtime which does make me think its more than just about the comfort in the night. I also feel confident that he gets enough calcium and fat that way - he hates all milk substitutes.

I also feel alone with the milk ladder, we are under a paed and dietitian but they are outstandingly crap at making me feel supported. Paed knows we have had a failed egg introduction (hives) and are struggling with both milk ladder and diet (no weight gain in months) and yet he won't see us until end november. We are not UK and are private patients, I guess he just doesn't understand how much of a struggle it is. And he definitely doesn't believe that sleep is linked, so no sympathy from him!

So it was the digestive stage that affected his sleep? We actually skipped that stage, because we are relying on the accompanying recipes for gluten and egg free options, and there doesn't seem to be one between malted and muffin. I don't really know whether to carry on as we are, because the nappies aren't full on diorrhea and he otherwise seems pretty unaffected. Sleep is bad but its always bad. I don't know whether to carry on and see if it gets worse, or hold back and stay on level one until these two molars are through and then start again.

its so complicated. I'm sure I didn't sign up for this!

Pinkpowderpuff Sun 11-Oct-15 12:39:08

If I were you I would hold off with introducing anything new while teething as you won't know what to attribute symptoms down to. Mine seemed OK on digestives, maybe slightly more unsettled than the malted milk but then for some random reason I decided to introduce butter brioche..... Don't know where that falls on the ladder!

ilovetosleep Sun 11-Oct-15 14:14:24

I know, teething just masks any reaction. But his teeth seem to take forever to come through, his molars have been making baby steps for a month now and after those he'll still have two canines to come... feels like we could be waiting months if we wait for it all to be over!

SheldonsSpotOnTheCouch Sun 11-Oct-15 15:19:35

I'm just going to throw something else into the mix and i may be way off beam so apologies in advance.

Have you checked for threadworms? I know that wouldn't explain the eczema but it could explain the fussiness. Particularly at that time. My ds was always the same and i put it down to intolerances bit just happened to check one night after my daughter had complained of an itchy bum and lo and behold he had them. So in our case the fussiness a couple of hours after going to sleep was down to itching rather than pain or allergies.

It may not be of course but just something to check particularly as you have an older child.

Kids can be gross!

ilovetosleep Sun 11-Oct-15 18:03:20

Haha yes kids can be gross! But I'm fairly sure it's not worms here. I inspect his nappies very thoroughly! Now that is gross... But I always feel like I'm on the look out so check them every time!

ilovetosleep Sun 11-Oct-15 18:03:55

Sorry OP I didn't mean to hijack your thread

Bishboshbash Sun 11-Oct-15 18:14:22

We waited until DS had all his teeth before we did the milk ladder. Also I mostly just make it up as I go along tbh. We did, biscuits, scones, cheese,yoghurt. Now DS has one little yoghurt a day and I am starting to introduce something else like cheese as well on the same day as I am not brave enough to give him actual milk yet!

Pinkpowderpuff Sun 11-Oct-15 18:16:00

Don't think it's worms here either, the whole family was treated a couple of months back as the older one was complaining of bottom itching - I never saw any works but treated everyone and took the usual hygiene precautions for three weeks after. He was OK last night until 2.30am then was unsettled until 4.30am when I gave calpol as he seemed painful - rubbing his mouth/face quite a lot. He then slept until 7.30, which is a lie in for him!

Ilovetosleep how many teeth does he have? It took about 4 months for the first four molars to finish from start to end. He has all of his canines although one has only just broken through so think it might be a bit sore. I'm wondering if his last set of molars are starting to move around already?

Pinkpowderpuff Sun 11-Oct-15 18:52:35

Bish How old is your DS? What symptoms did he have?

DrDiva Sun 11-Oct-15 19:13:01

I have a 3.3yo DS who is CMPI. And yes, nights were awful when he had dairy. We would have up to 6 hours of screaming and thrashing in his cot sad . Plus of course the utterly dreadful nappies, and the eczema. Like a pp we can tell if something has been contaminated, because his sleep gets restless again. And we are starting the dairy ladder in a couple of weeks, joy of joys...

Our dietitian (who's is very good) says that is is very common for symptoms to be worse at night, as there is no activity to keep things moving. She also said shortbread biscuits are better than digestives for keepin up tolerance levels, as they have less of the proteins, given that they are butter rather than milk biscuits. Ghee is also good. Brioche is about level 4 apparently - well-cooked milk.

DrDiva Sun 11-Oct-15 19:15:23

Btw, DS is also one of the 50% of CMPI children who are soya intolerant. When we came off dairy and started having soya, things calmed down for a while but then came back with a vengeance. We came off soya for 18 months - are halfway up the ladder and holding off uncooked as it still makes him react.

Pinkpowderpuff Sun 11-Oct-15 19:37:30

DrDiva when was your DS diagnosed? Mine doesn't really have eczema apart from a very very tiny patch on his chin that can come and go. Also nappies can vary from a bit too firm, to 'normal' then sometimes we can have really soft awful smelling ones but he can have this range in one day! I wish we had more obvious symptoms as I'm still not 100% sure, I'm sort of relying on instinct and the correlation of eating dairy and poor sleep..... Which could of course be coincidence!

Pinkpowderpuff Sun 11-Oct-15 19:41:02

I do give mine soya yogurts and soya custard. He has goats milk formula, which he seems to be OK with as he has had it since 8mo and sleep has been improving even while having it. He also has oat milk in food and as a drink at snack time. Maybe I should cut out the goats milk. He doesn't seem uncomfortable at night particularly, just restless and unable to settle.

DrDiva Sun 11-Oct-15 20:17:02

He was diagnosed properly at 18 months, although I had been saying since 7months that he was intolerant (rolls eyes). Had taken him off lactose, but not proteins. Oops. A couple of months later he was diagnosed soya intolerant too.

He doesn't get much eczema either, mostly on his thighs.

Bishboshbash Sun 11-Oct-15 20:37:24

Would he not drink hypo allergenic formula Pink? I think goats milk has similar proteins to cows milk, might be worth a try changing it.
My DS was diagnosed at 16weeks, really horrible nappies and being unsettled were his only symptoms. He also (still) has quite bad reflux. He is 2.7 now and he has been having dairy for about 3 months now?

Pinkpowderpuff Sun 11-Oct-15 21:34:27

I've not tried him on a hypo formula. Which would be best?

Bishboshbash Mon 12-Oct-15 09:21:17

My DS was on Nutramigen and then Neocate, both prescribed by the paediatrician. They only prescribe them until they are two though. Neocate is completely dairy free, nutramigen is broken down milk proteins or something like that.

ilovetosleep Mon 12-Oct-15 13:11:21

I think I have decided this milk ladder has been a failure sad DS has had increasingly sloppy nappies over the weekend, the latest was creamy and mucousy and yuck. And the last two nights he has been up with mucousy nose and throat. Could be a cold, could be teething still - but I just have no confidence with it all so am going to wait until he has all his teeth before trying again. pink he has 8 front teeth, 2.5 molars and 2 canines.

I don't give soya because a) he won't eat it and b) I don't really like the oestrogen factor, although I admit I know very little about it. I am still BFing which is difficult in the night but he won't take the hypo formula (by all accounts it is grim and best introduced in the first year before they get too fussy!)

Pinkpowderpuff Mon 12-Oct-15 14:01:47

We had a terrible night last night, up every 2 hours. He had soya custard before bed...... Soya is in loads of things like bread, how do I replace bread with soya free? I really didn't think he had an issue with it, or the goats milk really. He has had some really settled nights (although still waking 1 - 2 times but easy to settle) after having the goats formula. He only started getting rubbish after starting dairy ladder but I'm wondering if it was a coincidence. I hear there is a well documented sleep regression around about now...... He has been a pickle with naps which are usually great.

I don't know what to do, carry on like were and hope he improves again or go completely dairy and soya free? I feel so alone with this.

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