The Foundling: Georgette Heyer book thread no. 15

(55 Posts)
MooncupGoddess Thu 03-Jan-13 19:54:16

The Foundling is rather an oddity amongst GH's Regency romances - in that it is barely a romance at all. The hero proposes to the heroine on the orders of his uncle in about chapter 3, and we then see nothing more of the heroine until the final section of the novel, in which she shows support to him by offering to buy some substandard hats. This makes him recognise her worth and they indulge in a bit of affectionate chitchat. Damerel and Venetia it isn't - though the depiction of Gilly and Harriet's relationship is touchingly realistic.

In some ways The Foundling is a reworking of The Corinthian: rich young man is ordered to propose to suitable family connection, rebels against his ordered life and controlling family and goes off on an adventure. Just like Richard Wyndham, Gilly encounters various criminal low lives whom he thwarts, and a couple of silly young things whom he helps. I find GH's comedy criminals rather irritating - Liversedge has his moments (especially at the end when he turns out to have immaculate butlering skills) but it's not very believable that he would offer to do away with Gilly for payment from his cousin Gideon, and even though Gilly is apparently at risk of his life at one point the reader never doubts he will come through.

Tom Mamble is fun - one of GH's many spirited adolescent boys - but Belinda is so airheaded as to be utterly dull, and the subplot (pinched wholesale from Emma) about her devotion to a taciturn farmer is rather unconvincing. Similarly, Gilly's cousin Matt is a cardboard cutout Silly Young Man, and Harriet and her oppressive parents feel very familiar.

The redeeming feature of The Foundling, however (for me anyway), is Gilly (always referred to by his Christian name rather than his title, unlike other noble heroes) himself. Quite unlike most GH heroes (except perhaps Adam in A Civil Contract), he is young, short, skinny and no more than nice-looking. His kind, shy nature makes it very hard for him to stand up to his numerous well-meaning but overbearing relatives and retainers and the core of the novel is his quest to become a proper grown-up and assert his own opinions and boundaries. His character develops convincingly throughout the novel, whose climax is not The Clinch but the point at which Gilly finally tells his Uncle Lionel to shut up and let him make his own decisions for once. It's very reminiscent of those fantastic MN threads where the OP is dreadfully put upon by her dominating mother/ neighbour/SIL and after much encouragement finally finds her backbone and tells them where to go.

The Foundling will never be one of my favourite of GH's works - and I suspect GH recognised its weaknesses, which is why she reworked the plot in the (for me) more successful Sprig Muslin. But thinking of Gilly and his triumphs still makes me feel all warm inside.

Marking place. But he is often "the Duke", not always Gilly!

MooncupGoddess Thu 03-Jan-13 20:38:04

Oh drat - I misremembered! That's what comes of not having the copy beside me. He's never Sale, though, is he (cf Alverstoke, Damerel, Worth, Avon etc etc)?

LeonieDeSainteVire Thu 03-Jan-13 20:41:14

Well, this one has a special place for me because it was the first GH I attempted to read - when I was about 9! For some reason it was left on the shelves in my bedroom and as I was the sort of child who would read anything I gave it a go, and found it utterly bewildering. I only read as far as the proposal IIRC but I certainly tried it several times and just didn't understand it at all. So those early chapters always make me smile!

I agree this book is neither a romance nor an adventure story, though it has those elements, it is the story of Gilly discovering himself. And I think GH draws him and his growth very convincingly, I really like Gilly, he's so nice without being wet and I find his family convincing too, all those strong willed, well built people endless concerned with him but ultimately dominating him, and of course he finally learns to assert himself without being aggressive. I find him much more human than many of her heroes and so more likeable but I do not fall in love with him and I would be surprised if this was very popular when it was written.

Belinda is very unbelievable but in the end it's not about her, she's just a plot device. And I do think the murder element is too lightly treated, as it is in other novels, genuine intent to kill another human has no place in a light romance which I think GH recognised, and yet she keeps including it confused

LeonieDeSainteVire Mon 07-Jan-13 16:39:56

Did I kill the thread! Come on other GH fans, where are you?

Here but I find The Foundling a bit hmm. I only have it because I HAD to have copies of all GH's books and am a rabid completer-finisher.

I struggle to say why - mortifyingly, it may well be precisely because the hero & heroine are quite so meek and mild. I read GH for Damerel not Gilly. I now realise quite how shallow I am.

The comedy is good in places but overall a bit blunt-edged and lacking her usual wit. I think she finds it hard to be funny with characters she doesn't actually like that much and very few of them have any redeeming qualities. Belinda actually makes my skin itch.

LadyIsabellaWrotham Mon 07-Jan-13 20:45:06

Having read it and waited keenly for the thread, I find everyone's been so cogent that I have little left to say.

I love Gilly, who is totally unlike any other Heyer hero, and his relationship with his cousin; Heyer is always good on male friendships. Dashing cousin is loads of fun all round actually, a sort of Flashheart-y chap. I love Harriet's genuine bafflement when asked if she doesn't prefer him to Gilly.

I like Belinda actually - but I draw the line at Tom Mamble, whose plot is just plain silly.

But all in all it suffers from simply not being as good as Sprig Muslim, whilst having exactly the same plot. The one thing that did occur to me that distinguishes the two is that SM has that long stretch in the inn where Gareth recuperates, whereas this one takes place over a ludicrously short period of time, like Reluctant Widow. I do tend to prefer the Heyers which spread themselves out in time a bit - I think it gives the romance a bit more heft (I make an exception for Devil's Cub, because that's just plain bonkers). All the Austens take place over months and years, which is far more realistic than bundling seven plots into a period of two weeks . And I actively enjoy Heyer's handling of the passing of time, of weeks of balls, excursions and ridottos, and the gradual changing of feelings. What do you lot reckon?

LeonieDeSainteVire Mon 07-Jan-13 22:17:46

Oh i agree about the passage of time. It wouldn't hurt most of them to be stretched out a little unless is key to the plot, eg in Venetia the glorious autumn weather is part of creating the 'fairytale' and of course it can't last. I think it was The Corinthian where I was slightly taken aback at the end when one of the characters refers to the fact that the whole story has taken place over a few days hmm which is another reason why A civil Contract is so good, the characters have long enough to reasonably have developed changes in their feelings towards each other.

MooncupGoddess Tue 08-Jan-13 13:41:31

Yes, I agree Isabella - my favourites are Frederica, Civil Contract, Arabella, The Grand Sophy etc where the relationships have a chance to develop naturally over time. This is also why The Tollgate (for instance) feels rather forced and OTT.

Good point about Sprig Muslin - I really like the section where they are all just hanging out at the inn. It feels natural in a way that The Foundling just doesn't.

sarahtigh Wed 09-Jan-13 10:00:43

Gilly has actually known Harriet all his life, when Uncle Lionel first suggests match Gilly thinks Harriet is just fine but only known her as friend just has vague idea of completely unknown female and falling in love, Harriet told by her stupid mother that men do not like shows of affectation from wives, being in love is stupid etc and they both find out actually their parents/guardians have been spouting rubbish

I like Sprig Muslin as I think Hester is great also like Miles and abigails relationship, Arabella is good too

And mooncup The Tollgate is another of her mysteries.

I am liking this theory that her determination to shoe-horn in her mysteries is to the detriment of her writing - and that she is best with allowing relationships to develop within the natural milieu rather than within a melodrama.

My favourites list looks much like yours mooncup and I'd add Devil's Cub to it although its more sensational, it still charts the change and development of characters over time. Sylvester too might fall into the same category.

I've nearly finished, so am bumping.

I've just got to the bit where Sale (who incidentally is addressed as such only by Uncle Lionel and The Dowager) realises that Mr Mudgeley has been under his nose all the time.

A silly, forgettable romp. It could be nobody's favourite, although I have been enjoying it. I just prefer the domineering heroes, not the affable young men (Freddie in Cotillion rings a bell) and there are too many minor characters, so it isn't neat enough.

thewhistler Thu 10-Jan-13 23:43:45

Not one of my favourites.

I do like Harriet, because she has pride and pluck despite her innate sweetness and meekness. but like others I prefer Hester who is both short sighted (yes!) And has a gsoh.

I get fed up with Gilly until he tells Uncle Lionel off, and I don't find his exit from The Bird in Hand credible.

Gideon I do like. I want him to be the hero. Less for his height as his combination of niceness and activity.

I find it slightly more interesting than I might in that along with Cotillion and Friday's Child and Black Sheep it deals with prostitution, and you can completely see how Olivia, Belinda, and indeed Sophia will end up if not rescued. But Belinda is sooo stupid I get put off.

I reread it fairly recently and wondered whether to again in preparation for this thread, but decided against.

LeonieDeSainteVire Fri 11-Jan-13 08:21:31

I just prefer the domineering heroes

Is this the problem? Earlier on in these thread we had a bit of a moan about the sexist attitude of some of the men, 'knowing' what the women want better than they do etc hmm and yet when we read the books is it fair to say most readers actually warm to/prefer the capable, dominant (and older) men to the diffident, quieter (and younger) men.

Discuss! grin

LeonieDeSainteVire Fri 11-Jan-13 08:22:08

Oh god, but don't report me to the feminist boards!

No, I think we are safe from feminist theory here!

It's been mooted that part of the success of Fifty Shades is a national female rejection of having to be capable and self-reliant all the time. It isn't so much a rejection of feminism itself as a more general fear of responsibility and wish for comfort.

In the context of historical fiction, we are looking through two lenses - between us and Heyer, and between Heyer and the action. There are six decades in the first lens, and six socially and politically tumultuous decades at that.

Heyer's heroines legally give up everything when they marry - property and freedom over even their own bodies. Sexual assault crimes are crimes of property, not against the person. Violence and sexual assault within marriage may not have been commonplace but they were certainly not illegal. Marital rape doesn't exist as a legal concept until the 1990s in this country and 50/200 years ago there was certainly more of an idea of a married man's entitlement to marital relations being natural and inviolate.

In TCM (Heyer's version, not the 21C sanitised audiobook edit) Rule's refusal to beat Horatia despite her expectation, and the recommendations of others, and even though we know he isn't against using violence in other quarters (he threatens Crosby as well as Lethbridge) is held up as an example of his unusual self-control. In this kind of context we can draw parallels with the Relationships board where women still feel grateful that their husbands ever do any housework or childcare, since the societal expectation absolves men of any responsibility for "women's work".

Maybe some women prefer dominant/domineering men, and those are also the kind of women who like historical fiction. It must surely be self-selecting. Anyone who was really turned off by a very patriarchical view of the world would hate these books, no?

MooncupGoddess Fri 11-Jan-13 13:24:40

Hmm. I am a feminist and I much prefer the nicer heroes - I'd take lovely Hugo Darracott or Adam Lynton over ghastly Ivo Rotherham any day. I find dominant, arrogant men a dreadful turn-off, though I like the heroes who start off being rather up themselves but are brought down to earth by the heroines (e.g. Mr Beaumaris). Or those who have a masterful turn when necessary (e.g. Miles Calverleigh).

Competence and confidence are attractive in a man (both real life and in GH!), which is why Anthea finally falls for Hugo after he masterfully solves the crisis at the end of The Unknown Ajax, and Kitty falls for Freddy after he unexpectedly sorts out Dolph's wedding. Sherry does nothing for me as he's so young and feckless (and Vidal annoys the hell out of me with all that pouting and stropping).

I'd also argue that a lot of GH's heroines are pretty impressive in their own right - Sophy could sort out the post-Napoleonic European settlement before breakfast if she had to, Venetia runs an estate very competently and Frederica manages her four excitable younger siblings and the family finances. They're not pretty, giggly swooners by any means.

So, although reading GH through a rigorous radical feminism lens probably wouldn't be much fun, I would argue very strongly that her post-1930ish novels are not at all anti-feminist... and indeed, that they are much better on men, women and gender relations than the vast majority of historical fiction.

thewhistler Fri 11-Jan-13 14:51:21

Just to go back to TCM, I'm never convinced that the beating is suggestion is anything more than a tease. His threat to carry her upstairs is real, as Horry recognises.

I like the heroes who may be arrogant uncaring selfish swines to begin with but develop their softer side and recognise the strengths of their future wives. Avon is a classic. Not a nice man to begin with, but very changed by the end, as Davenant realises, something like " you have learned to love someone more than yourself". Damerel ditto, the entrancing picture of Alverstoke looking after Felix and not leaving him, even though in later years he dramatises his discomfort. Vidal not quite so satisfactory but being reduced to small boy status and later realising that the only thing he can do for Mary is to marry her, and then to set her free if she wants.

Silvester is a classic but I find the arguments too wearing to read about, although better than Rotherham.

But the combination of wealth, power, intelligence, strength of character, and development if niceness is an aphrodisiac for me. Freddy is too stupid, and his cousin Jack not nice enough. I'd prefer Freddy's father to be the hero.

Adam is a fine portrait but, oh, my heart bleeds for Jenny. I don't actually find Gareth Ludlow v attractive; he was emotionally stupid not to have realised how awful Clarissa was going to be, and although his understanding of Hester increases, she is so far ahead of him the whole time I don't think he deserves her.

Beaumaris and Charles are people who learn the error of their ways, and GH points this out quite clearly with transformation scenes. I never feel Worth does, perhaps that's why I don't like him so much now, though as an adolescent I did.

LadyIsabellaWrotham Fri 11-Jan-13 15:47:36

To those I'd add my favourites, Anthony Fanshawe in The Masqueraders, Charles Audley in Infamous Army and (of course) George Wrotham in Friday's Child.

All true.

My point is that Heyer as a mid C20 wife is in an odd position as a famous/successful woman in her own right. Her view of her characters is socially if not chronologically almost as far removed as we are from her - she was writing before my university awarded degrees to women at all, for example. That's what I meant about lenses.

And I grant you that her heroes and heroines are very modern compared to Austen's or the Brontes'. Even the ones who do conform to old-fashioned stereotypes do so somewhat ironically or unwillingly.

thewhistler Sat 12-Jan-13 15:57:16

Completely agree, of course.

But I suspect that her lens was closer than the equivalent for us; society has changed so extraordinarily since the pill.

I was rereading Sara Maitland's book on silence, where she says in effect the expectations of young women of her social class and era were to be articulate and intelligent, social and marry well.

Heyer would I think recognise all of those for her heroines; she has no time for the stupid such as Lydia Daubeny. But outside a Mills and Boon that is laughable now, or at any rate career would come into it.

And I agree how shocking it is how late one university gave degrees to women and also how badly that same university behaved when it came to a woman (not) becoming senior wrangler.

In all fairness it was better by the time I arrived this century. But men still outnumbered women two to one at my college (although that has its advantages shock grin ).

MooncupGoddess Sat 12-Jan-13 16:13:38

My college admitted women a full, er, twelve years before I started studying there. One of the senior fellows was so opposed to the decision that he never dined in college again.

Agree re attitudes of GH's time - though of course GH bucked the trend rather, since she supported her family for several years as her husband arsed up various business endeavours, until finally retraining as a barrister.

Question: if MrGH was such a feeble article (I have scant sympathy for men who can't knuckle down), perhaps she was drawn to write strong men as an escape from having to be the breadwinner/clever one/successful one?

::crap amateur psychologist::

MooncupGoddess Sat 12-Jan-13 17:05:07

Ooh, good theory Horatia. Especially as the most dominant heroes (Worth, Rule, Vidal, Ravenscar) were written in the 1920s/early 30s when Ronald was being useless, as opposed to later periods when he'd got his shit together.

I began to put together a post along the same line as thewhistler, abandoned it due to irritating children and now find that she's said it much better.

The attractiveness in GH's heros - for me - falls into a few categories:

The capable ones: Men who are comfortable in their own skins, know how to manage life without exerting Alpha-male power over all and sundry:
Hugo, Alverstoke, Freddy, Anthony Fanshawe, Waldo Hawkridge,

The men-who-like-their-women: the ones with humour and affection who treat the heronines as friends, as equals - which is NOT what the norm would have been:
Damerel, Miles Calverleigh, Oliver Carleton, Tristram,

The distant and paternal: Never on an equal footing with the heroines, but at least don't scowl:
Rule, Richard Wyndham, Worth (although he goes into the next category more often for me....), Avon,

Scowly and/or patronising: I struggle with Worth and actively dislike Rotherham - too Alpha-male and still too condescending to the women.

I make an exception for Vidal - I think because he's my girlhood crush and whilst I itch to shake him now, I retain a lot of affection for him. (Good Lord - am I turning into Fanny?!) shock

thewhistler Sat 12-Jan-13 18:12:49

Duchess, no one has ever said that before to me! Am thrilled. on phone otherwise (blush).

I like Sophy's diagnostic of men, those like Charlbury who are capable and reliable; the useless like Fawnhope who cannot get a chair in the rain and whose tables are in a draughty unseen corner (I may have ascribed the wrong attributes but ykwim); and the dishonorable Alfred.

So then we divide up the capable.

There is not an incapable hero, as Gilly's road towards hero status is the road to proving he is capable on the practical level and Sherry's on the emotional one, ad Gil points out.

I still like the Rochester types. Sherry and Freddy are just too silly. What would one have talked about to them? I would have got very bored with them and they with me.

Once again, how wonderful this thread is...

GinGirl Sat 12-Jan-13 18:27:51

Duchess where would you put Charles (TGS)?

Am thrilled to have found this by the way, have all Heyer in paperback and most on my Kindle as well. Just read 'Annals of Almacks' and it made me think of Sophy saying how lucky she was to have such an accomplished flirt for a father (to procure vouchers). So am obviously reading it again (must be well into double figures by now, approaching 20 times)

Back to The Foundling. Although it is not my favourite there are some stand-out characters for me. I think Gideon is well-drawn (would take him over Gilly!) and Lionel. Harriet endears herself so me through the act of suggesting to her grandmother that she should be allowed to do something because her stepmother would disappove. She has obviously adored Gilly from afar for years and I think the relationship will develop into a mature marriage where each partner respects the other.

This thread is quite cross-referencey now - vair educated.

What's next? I think we are due something new for Monday and I want a good one.

(Although if Ronald has "got his shit together" grin by now I won't like the hero much wink )

LadyIsabellaWrotham Sat 12-Jan-13 21:10:45

I've never thought before that GH was only about 120 years away from the Regency when she started writing about it, whilst we're nearly 80 years on from her. As a child of the mid twentieth century, born well within Heyer's lifetime, she fits in a box marked Modern, whilst the Regency is firmly Pre-Victorian. But when you look at the cold hard numbers, it won't be long before her readers are as far from her as she was from Beau Brummell.

But from a feminist perspective I don't think she's a long way away from Austen and the Brontes, I'm hard put to find anywhere in which she's visibly writing from a post-suffrage, post Married Women's Property Act perspective. What's sad is that neither GH, JA, nor the Brontes could see any happy ending for a woman beyond marriage. Obviously they're romances, so the leading lady has to marry, but IIRC, none of the supporting cast can have a destiny beyond marriage (although some of Heyer's older women are having a fabulous time in their widowhood). Please please correct me if I've missed something (and I haven't read Shirley).

GH offers possibilities for some of the women who get married anyway - I'm thinking of Phoebe Marlow who was planning on setting up home with Miss Beccles and writing novels. She marries Sylvester instead, but it's mooted as a possibility.

Austen's heroines are unrelentingly wet. The Brontes are a bit better (although I can't remember Shirley) although their unmarried women are unsurprisingly unhappy.

Heyer at least lets her heroines have minds of their own.

We are a long way off Cousin Kate, aren't we? She's interesting in this topic, and we perhaps should have cross-referred to her during Reluctant Widow.

LadyIsabellaWrotham Sat 12-Jan-13 21:30:44

Arabella next - half way through and loving it, proper London high society comedy, which is my favourite sort of Heyer.

Cousin Kate is 16 books on from there shock I agree that it fits in the same sort of box as Reluctant Widow, but I haven't read it in twenty years, so who knows what I'll think of it this time round.

Charles eludes me ... maybe there is another category for the transformed hero - Charles, maybe Alverstoke fits in here ...anyone else? Maybe Charles does belong in Capable after all.

I also struggled with St Erth.

Mmm.. all needs a bit more work. My days of incisive literary analysis as an English under-grad are too far behind me.

I will work on heroine categories and then do an interesting set of cross-references between hero/heroines categories to see which is the most popular combination.

Bloody hell Duchess that sounds like a lot of work... shock

Arabella - hurrah! One of my go-to Heyers.

I believe the phrase is "on it like Sonic".

<<down with the kidz>>

edam Sat 12-Jan-13 23:53:27

LadyIsabella, Jane Eyre is a feminist novel IMO. Mr Rochester is a dominant male who is not allowed to marry Jane until he has lost his dominance and become vulnerable. Jane is a remarkably independent woman for her time and place, who refuses to submit to bullying men, in her childhood, her time with Rochester or with Rivers. She is prepared to Do Her Own Thing to the point of walking off into the hills on her own rather than be forced into a relationship with Rochester on terms that are not acceptable to her.

I'm sure there are plenty of feminist Georgette Heyer fans, including my Mother and me. Thing about her heroes is, most of them have a sense of humour, which is a pretty redeeming feature. Worth isn't so appealing but for his time he's quite advanced. Can't recall the title but which is the one with the heroine who was brought up as if she was her father's heir, and discovers when the will was read Daddy has made her ex her trustee, much to her fury and their mutual embarassment - is she Lady Serena? Anyway, there's a line at the end to the effect of 'and you'll clear any fences I set you at' or something, which has always irritated me - even though she's a strong, confident woman, he's still the boss.

Yes that's Serena and Ivo. But in part that's the ridiculous will, isn't it? that the otherwise independent woman is hamstrung by her misogynist father from beyond the grave.

Horatia I might not have been entirely serious.....

Looks like Bath Tangle will be a good discussion when we get there.

mackerella Sun 13-Jan-13 10:00:36

Hello, I've been lurking on these threads for a while and wondered if I could join in? I haven't read any for a while, but the next two books (Arabella, The Grand Sophy, right?) are among my favourites, so I hoped I might have something vaguely sensible to contribute! grin

LadyIsabellaWrotham Sun 13-Jan-13 10:25:23

Greetings mackerella. What you need to know is that the first rule of Georgette Heyer Book Club is "Hi! come in, lovely to see you, I think there's a space in that sofa over there"

It's not much of a rule but it's the only one we've got.

Am having to physically force myself not to start Grand Sophie too early so it's still really fresh in my mind when we discuss it, but the temptation is very strong.

mackerella Sun 13-Jan-13 10:54:39

Thank you! I was worried that you might be as strict with your entry requirements as the Patronesses of Almacks...

edam Sun 13-Jan-13 11:03:15

Hello mackerella!

Horatia, indeed she is hamstrung. Thanks for reminding me of Ivo - when I first read it, as a teenager, I decided Ivo would be a good name for any future sons... I'm sure ds would be glad he escaped that one if only he knew!

MooncupGoddess Sun 13-Jan-13 11:10:44

We are pretty welcoming here, I hope - as long as you don't engage in any Inappropriate Waltzing, of course.

Edam said what I was planning to say about Jane Eyre (and Villette, Shirley and The Tenant of Wildfell Hall all have fascinating feminist elements, though it's a different thread of course).

Agree that the future of GH heroines is portrayed as pretty bleak if they don't marry. Occasionally one of them starts planning an alternative life involving renting a house somewhere unfashionable like Kensington, but it's always made to sound a terribly depressing prospect.

edam Sun 13-Jan-13 11:19:30

I dunno, I always think whatsherface the one in Yorkshire who is a 'fabulously expensive' governess would have done quite well even if she hadn't married that hugely rich bloke with the orphanages - Waldo Hawkridge? (Am being dense about names atm.)

mackerella Sun 13-Jan-13 11:54:06

[Incidentally, Mooncup, I have the advantage of you - as a GH hero might say - because I know you IRL. If that alone isn't enough to tell you who I am, a quick look through my posting history would probably enlighten you...]

mackerella - welcome! and a mystery as well ... grin

I think the "expensive governess" is Ancilla Trent, who marries Sir Waldo Hawkridge in iirc The Nonesuch, having been Theophania (Tiffany) Wield's governess-companion. Her life is pretty grim and dependent until she marries, too.

MooncupGoddess Sun 13-Jan-13 17:55:25

Ah - triply welcome then, mackerella! We must arrange to meet ere long for a morning gallop across Hyde Park, or perhaps a shopping expedition to that Bond Street emporium where Kitty Charing buys silk stockings and fans, followed by a soothing glass of ratafia* and a macaroon.

* which turns out to be 'a liqueur made from an infusion of macerated fruit or fruit juice in a liquor (as brandy) and often flavoured with almonds'. Sounds much more alcoholic than I'd supposed!

mackerella Sun 13-Jan-13 18:30:24

I have a recipe for ratafia! It's in this book, which has a whole section called Cordials and Ratafias, as well as others called Tree Sap Wines, Country Vinegars and Meads and Melomels (the last surely the novel that Jane Austen would have got round to writing had she not died tragically young). If you want to know how to make bilberry wine, broad bean wine confused, cock ale (which has chicken bones in it confusedconfused) or metheglin, I'm your woman.

Some of them definitely sound like drinks in GH novels: ratafia of oranges, gooseberry ratafia, Sir Walter Raleigh's cordial water, currant shrub, syruped fruit vinegar ("a spoonful of which may be dissolved in warm water and taken when a cough or sore throat is troublesome"), bragget and negus. Maybe we should have a real-life book group meet-up, complete with authentic food and drinks?

edam Sun 13-Jan-13 18:33:30

Wow, I'd always assumed ratafia was a very mild drink. Don't the gentlemen scorn it and complain when they have to go to Almacks which serves nothing more dangerous?

Yes, Ancilla Trent, of course! She's not a drudge - although Tiffany is a right royal pain in the backside Ancilla points out she has a very high wage and Tiffany's aunt is extremely grateful to her. I know a governess's lot is not always a happy one but Ancilla makes it clear she chooses to earn her own living rather than be supported by her brother and mother. I can't see her putting up with a bad employer.

mackerella Sun 13-Jan-13 18:34:15

Actually, although the food is described in great detail in GH novels, I don't think that much drinking goes on - at least among the women. They all seem to drink dishes of tea, lemonade or orgeat*. Arabella Tallant's attempts to drink champagne are something of an exception - I can't think of any other heroines who drink (alcohol) at all?

* This is apparently an almond syrup flavoured with rosewater or orange flower water, which I think sounds quite nice.

MooncupGoddess Sun 13-Jan-13 18:43:54

What a fantastic book, mackerella! (Though I might pass on the broad bean wine.) There is definitely negus in GH - I have a feeling dowagers drink it.

Ancilla is great and definitely a Spinster Role Model - though I have always been a bit lukewarm about The Nonesuch for the slightly pathetic reason that Waldo and Ancilla are both bloody awful names. Feels like GH was getting a bit desperate after four decades of inventing names for a different set of characters every year.

CaseyShraeger Sun 13-Jan-13 18:58:44

I don't think Charles is transformed as such -- it's clear from what his family members say about him that the Charles they all knew from the past is, pretty much, the same Charles that Sophy has restored by the end of the book. The stress of dealing with the family's calamitous financial situation has temporarily made him the more forbidding figure we (and Sophy) encounter at the beginning of the book.

I get the feeling that ratafia was too sickly sweet for the men - the contemporary equivalent of alcopops perhaps? As opposed to proper drinks like Burgundy or brandy - there is a lot of smuggled brandy in the 1800-1820 books!

thewhistler Sun 13-Jan-13 22:19:14

Gosh, there is so much to comment on.

I have drunk ratafia and of course you can get the biscuits easily. Orgeat is also available. I think they come from Spain, which would make sense given the wars. if not, Italy. But I saw them in France.

I also agree that JE is a feminist novel and so it was perceived at the time, v shocking, and yes, she turns down st john which would have been security until an early death, turns down Rochester until on her own terms.

But the reality for women of that period is that unless you had your own income the only alternative to marriage was drudgery or living with relatives who didn't want you. Elinor and Kate have no alternative. Nor will Eleanor and Marianne once their mother and her income die. Mary Bennett has governess written all over her, just as Lydia has tart, unless her older sisters make good marriages. Fanny is dumped on relatives, Anne suffers. Fanny could not have been a governess, Anne should not have been if her father had been competent.

Abigail, Ancilla, Venetia , Selina can live albeit in circumscribed circs because they have their own money. Kensington and blue stocking society sound quite fun to Venetia. Emma Wodehouse is an heiress so she can live by herself or with a companion once her father dies. Phoebe is the one who does plan a career future, although she should have had some money from her mother, presumably though her father is useless with money.

But the fear of being Miss Bates, and ultimately starving to death, looms large. Miss Beccles says she never has anything to eat mid day, when Carlyon is driving her down to Elinor. It is hanging over Frederica that she will be a pain to Harry once he takes over the estate.

This position changed little for the middle classes until post war, once men had come back from the First World War. My granny thought that neither DSis nor I should be educated as it would get in the way of marrying well. (And it, or something, did.) GH would have been writing for her generation. If you read the novels of DE Stevenson, the same is broadly true there.

I think it is the Scots female novelists who have women going off to make careers, there is one by either the findlaters or Mrs oliphant where the ain't goes to become a successful milliner.

Dickens deals with the lower middle classes who were less circumscribed, so really does Mrs Gaskell (Miss Matty and her shop).

thewhistler Sun 13-Jan-13 22:24:07

Aunt, not ain't.

New thread about Arabella here.

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