The Reluctant Widow: Georgette Heyer book club part 14

(50 Posts)
HoratiaLovesBabyJesus Wed 05-Dec-12 12:08:52

I had thought that this was one of my favourites, so I had been looking forward to curling up with it again.

I was disappointed. Carlyon is a shadow - a two-dimensional placeholder. He has a certain Avon-ish omnipotence/omniscience but without the character.

Elinor is fine, but again not a patch on her successors eg Abby Wendover, Ancilla Trent, etc. For an experienced governess she seems incapable of initiative, being rather feebly directed by Carlyon, Miss Beccles and even the Hon Nicky in turn.

The lost letter plot is a bit Talisman Ring, and oh how we cringed last time. This is better, but the convenient deaths are tedious, and far too much happens offstage, so to speak. GH "tells" us too much, instead of "showing". Poor.

Bouncer is a mitigating factor, of course. I love his guarding Elinor where she has to be brought food and drink and things to do. Also Nicky's disdain for Francis who prefers cats... grin

Any other saving graces? I wait to be convinced.

TheElfOnThePanopticon Wed 05-Dec-12 13:29:53

I read this one quite late, and it didn't compare well to the ones I'd read before.

MooncupGoddess Wed 05-Dec-12 13:42:58

I agree the lost letter plot is v ropey (essentially, someone says 'oh there is an important memorandum missing from the Ministry' and everyone assumes immediately that it must be something to do with Eustace). And the wrapping up at the end is full of holes too.

I've also always been irrationally annoyed by the last few pages - Carlyon and Elinor get into his curricle, he starts driving, then he proposes and there is loverlike chat and a snog - but the text never mentions anything about their actual surroundings again. Is Carlyon driving while snogging? We need to know.

However, I am fond of Elinor, who is actually very intrepid in difficult circumstances. In my younger days I thought she was rather a wuss, but actually her reaction is much more realistic than a more gung-ho approach would have been. Also, she is very funny, and a lot of the time she is just exaggerating for comic effect and to wind up Carlyon.

HoratiaLovesBabyJesus Wed 05-Dec-12 14:39:57

Oh yes, her exasperated sarcasm and his unmoved deflection of it is funny.

MooncupGoddess Wed 05-Dec-12 17:42:24

Also, Reluctant Widow is unusual in that Elinor actually has a job. She is genuinely penniless and works hard in the unrewarding toil of governessing to keep herself alive, having decided to make her own way in life rather than scrounge off her horrible relations.

This makes her significantly more emotionally mature than a lot of Heyer heroines, I'd argue, and there is also a great scene where Carlyon shows that he genuinely understands what life as a governess involves and how hard it is. Most of the time I agree with Horry that he's two-dimensional; but that scene really does redeem him.

HoratiaLovesBabyJesus Wed 05-Dec-12 18:35:17

I like him, it's just frustrating that 90% of the novel happens without him. Even when he is in the building he tends to be in the wrong bloody room.

joanofarchitrave Wed 05-Dec-12 22:46:43

Yes, there's something slightly empty about TRW compared to a lot of the other novels. I think it suffers from a lack of fully realised female characters - Heyer wants to make it a mystery novel, and writes in more men so that there is more of a range of professional, action and travel possibilities to play with; but since it is still a romance, she has a female character who stays still in the hollow centre, while men come and go telling her where the plot has got to. It's insulting how little effort she puts into Mrs Beccles, and in many of the other novels Mrs Macclesfield would have had a part, and Georgy Flint would have had more than one scene.

It's one of the depressing things about Heyer that she despised her own success in writing romantic comedies, and always hankered after success in murder mysteries and histories, which she's not nearly as good at.

joanofarchitrave Wed 05-Dec-12 22:47:30

IMO it has the same feel as Cousin Kate. Neither is high on my list to re-read.

LeonieDeSainteVire Thu 06-Dec-12 08:14:09

I think I agree with Joan, GH's skills really lie in the light romantic comedies full of fantastic period detail and with her characters. Her books which follow those lines (Fridays Child for instance) we all love and crucially haven't dated. Her mystery/romance novels just aren't as good and I think they have dated. Tbh I doubt they'd still be in print if it wasn't for the GH name.

So TRW, I like the characters, Elinor's exasperated (but not really) comments, Nicky's puppyish enthusiasm, Francis' exaggerated foppishness, Bouncer of course! Carlyon is a little too perfect, there's no warmth there. And the story is far fetched, secret stairs - its all a bit Enid Blyton IMO! (but at least there isn't a necklace!)

Re the end scene, it's not a curricle, it's a carriage, they are both sitting in the back. So no problem. The bit that makes me laugh (and I don't think it's meant to) is when he says something like 'you must know I have fallen in love with you' and she says 'no, not at all' - that is not a romantic exchange and a sign I think that GH hasn't quite nailed it with this one.

HoratiaLovesBabyJesus Thu 06-Dec-12 09:46:26

I forgot to say that my big niggle with this is that I can't work out how to pronounce Carlyon.


It bothers me. I don't mind finding out my comfortable guess was wrong (Wrotham/root-em, for example) but I mentally stick on Carlyon every flipping time. Jury please!

LeonieDeSainteVire Thu 06-Dec-12 13:02:30

Carl - yun (like onion but with a carl!) I think, (or like Carlton but with a y)

thewhistler Thu 06-Dec-12 23:03:10

Haven't yet reread but I had always assumed Car lion.

Bouncer is the best bit that I recall. Nicky is irritating and not a patch on other enthusiastic young men, Perry etc. Elinor not nearly so amusing as Miss Trent. Car lion (aka Jaguar?) Okish. And I find her depictions of evil gay men, Basil and Francis, irritating.

It had a dark cover, my copy, and somehow u associate it with gloom.

VikingLady Sun 09-Dec-12 22:14:12

I really like this book! It isn't anything like the others, except perhaps The Talisman Ring for plot, but not for atmosphere. I like Elinor. She feels very realistic to me: worrying about her future being realistic about what it involves, being extremely annoyed at having someone else tell her what to do when she has been in charge of her own life. And although she is clearly (I think) over-egging her nerves, it would be likely that she would be nervous and want the secret door nailed shut after Nicky gets shot! She's not one of GH's teenage innocents with no grasp of the seriousness of the situation. She is a responsible adult!

Carlyon is exceedingly boring though. I suppose as an alternative to being a governess he is an improvement!

Francis turning out to be a good guy is very unbelievable. Though I love the silver tassels to preserve the mourning touch!

VikingLady Sun 09-Dec-12 22:14:24

Too many "!"s. Sorry.

HoratiaLovesBabyJesus Mon 10-Dec-12 13:51:43

Francis is hardly a good guy (he does stab de Castres after all) but almost certainly psychotic - cold-blooded murderer laid up with a head cold. grin

For me, the problem lies in the set up. The whole explanation of why Carlyun is trying to procure Eustace a wife and why Eustace goes for it and how ELinor is rail-roaded into it is weak, weak, weak.

Once you get past that, I am quite enjoying it. Elinor has a nice dry sense of humour and her comments are very tongue-in-cheek. I like how much she enjoys Nicky and finds him funny. She is play-acting most of the time, very like Sarah Thane, and I like her practicality. Which returns me to the weakness of the set-up - I just don't think she'd ever be inveigled into marrying Eustace. Unless we are supposed to believe that she is already subliminally falling for Carlyun and is willing to please him - which I think is mawkish.

I am only half way through so haven't yet got reacquainted with Francis but I remember him being quite a chilling baddie. Doesn't he pull a sword stick on Bouncer in a rather nasty fashion?

LeonieDeSainteVire Tue 11-Dec-12 08:16:50

I don't think Elinor would have married Eustace as per the original set up, I think she only agreed because he was obviously on the point of death. It's is still a bit unlikely unless she felt she was wholly in Carlyon's power by that point, which she was although obviously he's a good guy and wouldn't have taken advantage of her.

Francis is very cold, totally driven by self interest even to the point of murder. In fact he reminds me of Avon somewhat, totally ruthless character hidden under a foppish facade, GH uses that type of character a few times but only in Avon is he the 'hero'. He (Francis) is slightly pantomime but that's partly as a result of the setting, surrounded by wholesome, healthy, honest chaps. If you stuck him in the Masqueraders he wouldn't seem out of place.

HoratiaLovesBabyJesus Tue 11-Dec-12 09:24:10

Except that we are repeatedly told that everyone is under Carlyon's spell - family, servants, locals. I agree about the comparisons to Avon: the charisma and enigma is the same, and also the unshakeable loyalty. If Leon(ie) can trust and adore Avon within seconds, why can't Elinor trust and adore Carlyon?

MooncupGoddess Tue 11-Dec-12 13:56:30

Actually given Elinor's lonely and impoverished career as a governess, I can absolutely see why she'd marry the dying Eustace. Even the small amount of inheritance involved would change her life.

But - I don't get why Eustace is willing to marry Elinor. The whole thing about him being desperate to hack off Carlyon doesn't make sense, especially given that he knows Carlyon has procured Elinor anyway.

LeonieDeSainteVire Tue 11-Dec-12 14:16:23

I don't think Carlyon has Avon's charisma though confused I think he inspires the loyalty and affection through being a thoroughly decent chap. Whereas Avon does it through his personality, because he is not a decent chap!

I believe in Eustace marrying Elinor, he knows he's going to die, knows if he does unmarried then Carlyon gets his estate, this is the only thing he can do to thwart him. I think there's a suggestion of instability in his character too, ie that bizarre behaviour might not be out of place.

LadyIsabellasHollyWreath Tue 11-Dec-12 15:32:42

I haven't read this in ages - to the extent that I genuinely couldn't remember whether Francis was the villain he appears to be or a heavily disguised hero, whereas in fact of course he's neither, which is why the incident with the clock confused me. I eventually worked out that it's the opposite plot to Regency Buck - with the bumbling father as the culprit rather than the smooth young son. Carlyon is a bit like Worth as well.

I did enjoy this one - I like Nicky and Bouncer and Elinor, and I adore Frances - his line that "just because I have a tendency to colds and prefer cars to dogs doesn't mean I'm a Bonapartist spy" is a classic. He reminds me of the three "probably gay" young men in her contemporary mysteries - one of whom is the murderer and one of whom marries our heroine.

But as a romance it's a complete non-starter. I think Heyer needed to go back and insert about twenty pages of character stuff to make it more convincing, but even then we wouldn't believe that Carlyon would leave her alone with an armed French spy on the loose would we? And surely he should be a leeetle more upset/guilty about her being bashed on the head like that.

VikingLady Tue 11-Dec-12 16:32:23

Francis was a good guy in the end, if a very cold-hearted one. He did it for patriotism as well as saving family face. Admittedly he still isn't a nice person.... But the murder was because it was better for Louis de Castres' family, wasn't it? As well as keeping everything as quiet as possible and self interest (the family name).

HoratiaLovesBabyJesus Tue 11-Dec-12 17:36:20

A bad deed for good reasons - but frighteningly cold-blooded.

VikingLady Wed 12-Dec-12 08:37:30

Oh, very!

CreamolaFoamFan Fri 14-Dec-12 22:10:55

I can't quite pin down what I feel about this one: if I'm thinking about it, I don't find the plot particularly compelling, and I just don't believe in the romance between Elinor and Carlyon. It's nearly all 'ooh he's so annoying', then, 'oh, go on then' right at the end. It just all feels a bit... tacked together. It wouldn't be one of the ones I'd automatically go to if I needed a fix, but while I'm reading it, it passes a couple of hours very enjoyably.

For me, I think it's because the relationship aspect feels weak to me that the book doesn't work as well as others. I read GH to get a bit of romantic sparring and mutual attraction, and what I'm getting is one of her detective novels moved 200 years backwards.*

*I quite like the detective novels though - at least the lower orders aren't there just for comic relief for once.

CreamolaFoamFan Fri 14-Dec-12 22:13:50

Also, what LadyIsabella said about Carlyon - you never get the sense that there's a great passion labouring under that many-caped driving coat of his. No betraying look or word after she gets boinked on the head.

thewhistler Sat 15-Dec-12 15:37:06

At least in TTR Tristan teases Sarah on a couple of occasions. No sense of that here.

LadyIsabellasHollyWreath Sat 15-Dec-12 16:15:30

I think in TTR there's a sense of Sarah and Tristan being the "grownups", united by their sense of responsibility to the juvenile leads, so you can believe that they're being drawn together. In RW Carlyon has John to confide in, so there isn't that conspiratorial bond betweeen him and Elinor.

LeonieDeSainteVire Sun 16-Dec-12 09:41:35

I discovered last weekend (pre Christmas visits etc) that my step-mother is a huge GH fan and bizarrely (to me) The Reluctant Widow is her favourite. But she also said she liked the detective novels. So I guess if this is more like the detective ones it just appeals more to a different readership than the romantic, comedy of manners ones.

And I agree about the relationship between Carlyon and Elinor.

CreamolaFoamFan Sun 16-Dec-12 19:52:11

Also, do any of GH's heroines/raving beauties not have curls? England at the time must have been awash with the Regency equivalent of Frizz-ease.

thewhistler Sun 16-Dec-12 23:51:14

Jenny is plain with dreadful unnatural curls

Patience has soft fair hair.

I don't think Frederica has curls.

LeonieDeSainteVire Mon 17-Dec-12 08:39:35

All romantic heroines have curls <<bitter, straight-haired emoticon>>

And often dimples.

Frawli Wed 19-Dec-12 20:59:33

I quite like this one, although there is too much focus on the mystery and not enough on the romance if you ask me. I don't mind her murder mystery books though, although they are nowhere near as good as her romances.

And in my head I pronounce it 'Car-lee-un', never occurred to me it might be another way.

HoratiaLovesBabyJesus Wed 19-Dec-12 22:30:46

When are we next convening, and which book? I am crap.

Are we having Christmas off, or assuming we have more time to read?

thewhistler Wed 19-Dec-12 22:40:04

Am finally reading, having brought myself to buy the ebook rather than wait for a charity shop reject.

Am enjoying it more than hitherto, and picking up the signs about carlyon but they are too obvious. It's too slight, though a good divertissement from bloody work.

thewhistler Fri 21-Dec-12 12:27:30

But Doctor Ratcliffe's Restorative Pork Jelly makes an appearance, not just in Frederica. I had completely forgotten.

I feel we should take this as our master mind subject.

HoratiaLovesBabyJesus Fri 21-Dec-12 14:39:38

Oh yes. Sounds revolting. Does one spread it on toast, or make it into a Bovril-like hot pork drink, or simply slurp it by the spoonful?


thewhistler Fri 21-Dec-12 17:30:23

I think slurp by the spoonful, as with calves' foot jelly etc...

Bouncer is the best drawn character, albeit limited development . John would be good but is too solid. Jaguar still fails to convince me - I have read it another twice to check. Elinor doesn't have Sarah or Ancilla's perception, nor does Jaguar say that he is not prepared to let her sacrifice him a la Miles. And the bit with Georgy is too obvious and too soon.

Perhaps that is what is so irritating: we are beginning to be used to character development and in this one, the cardboard does not shift.

On the gay reading however, am now chortling at Francis saying how many intimate friends he has in the Horse Guards.

What's next?

thewhistler Fri 21-Dec-12 17:32:17

and which novels (not mysteries) have Christmas in them?

Judith and Perry spend Christmas at Oatlands, or somewhere, because that is where Perry gets the poisoned snuff.

Not sure about anyone else. They are mostly confined to one season/Season.

thewhistler Fri 21-Dec-12 17:37:18

and - sorry about multiple posts - can't agree Francis is good. He threatens his father with death. Car Lion, whose judgment is impeccable, shudders when he realises that.

Here's a recipe for Restorative Pork Jelly - seems like you drink/slurp it.

thewhistler Fri 21-Dec-12 17:59:32

agree you would have taken a spoon to it. chocolate cups are small, half way between espresso cups and tea cups.

Ooh - interesting point about Christmas...

<slopes off to thumb through GH stash>

LeonieDeSainteVire Sat 22-Dec-12 19:55:50

Don't they have Christmas in Friday's Child? Isn't that when Hero has her race? Will check in a bit but currently cooking. Agree that they are mostly set during The Season, think Venetia gets as far as November?

thewhistler Wed 26-Dec-12 19:46:11

There are too many austen quotations or plagiarisms in TRL. Elinor has "remarkably fine eyes". There are quite a few other echoes, one from Emma, i think, and the whole gothic adventure is northanger abbey with elinor pretending to be catherine.

Have reread again and can see more in Carlyon, but not the strongest.

MooncupGoddess Wed 02-Jan-13 20:32:28

The Foundling next - I've just reread it so happy to start the thread when the time comes.

LadyIsabellaWrotham Thu 03-Jan-13 07:20:51

Oh please do Mooncup - I read it before Christmas and if we don't get started soon I'll forget the plot again <goldfish>.

Yay Foundling. I like reading the ones I don't remember well.

LeonieDeSainteVire Thu 03-Jan-13 13:43:55

I've read so many over Christmas I am miles ahead, I may have to reread them again for these threads. Can't wait to start the Foundling, it has a special place in my heart!

MooncupGoddess Thu 03-Jan-13 19:55:00

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