Agh! Fuming!

(56 Posts)
Lilka Sun 10-Nov-13 13:29:29

She's really pulled one off this time

This week has been confrontational. She is controlling, oppositional and just nasty sometimes.

On Friday she got out the wrong side of bed and started calling me "cunt". As in, "What's for breakfast, cunt?" She knows what's for breakfast, she has the same damn breakfast every single morning. She just needed an opportunity to call me names. First I tried "I'm not answering your questions unless you call me something polite" so she started yelling and throwing things. She came home from college, and started the same thing again. So I decided to change tactics and refused to answer to anything except 'cunt'. She said "hey fuckwit" and I ignored her and when she repeated it I informed her that since my new name was cunt, she must address me as 'cunt' before I talk to her. This momentarily stunned her and then she started tantrumming again. I kept it up all evening. DD1 came round alone for dinner as a mini break from parenting, and I bribed her into joining in, which she thought was very funny. "Hey, cunt, can you pass me the salt please?" etc. Hasten to add, DS was round a friends house for dinner, so he didn't hear this. DD2 was so angry that her attempt at being mean backfired badly that eventually she just yelled at DD1 "oh my god, stop calling her cunt, muuuummmm she's being rude to you". And then stomped off. I privately savoured the victory. I should have known she'd do something else

Yesterday she stood and watched me brush my teeth and wash my face. She literally stared at me. It was unnerving

She did the same thing this morning

A couple of hour ago, DS ran downstairs to inform me that he'd just seen DD2 dunking and rubbing my toothbrush in the toilet. FFS.

I stopped being creative and yelled at her. While she screamed that she didnt do it. Even though my toothbrush was wet so it was kind of obvious.

Then I went in to talk to her and she made it very obvious (while attempting to deny all knowledge) that she did it on Friday evening as revenge for me raining on her swearing parade and watched me brushing my teeth yesterday and today to savour the victory

I am so fucking angry. And disgusted.

She has lost her pocket money and savings from her piggy bank. I took her to the supermarket with me and her money and she watched me spend it on a new toothbrush

Then i spent 15 minutes brushing my teeth again with my nice new toothbrush. Which is now locked in the medicine cabinet.

She is STILL mad. Now she is angry that she has lost her pocket money because her horrible evil mother is mean to her for no reason hmm I feel like she is building up to a mega tantrum/rage and until she gets that out her system she is not going to calm down. This is a bit scary.

The main point of this is - I had toilet water in my mouth and I am SO PISSED OFF ABOUT IT.

Rant end angry

Moomoomie Sun 10-Nov-13 13:40:01

Oh dear. Lilka, I really don't know what to say.partly I'm laughing at your ingenuity at only answering to "cunt"
The more you talk of dd2 the more I agree that she has FASD. I went on a study day on Friday about it which was really interesting. I am going to email the speaker and ask for the slides/ power point presentation she used. If I manage to receive it, I could email you a copy if you like.
The most I teresting point she made was that, none of the tested methods, ie play therapy, counselling, life storŷ work, will work on a child with FASD.

Moomoomie Sun 10-Nov-13 13:41:20

Also, they don't understand ownership, possessions. Or understand that they are lying. Such a minefield.

Maryz Sun 10-Nov-13 13:51:49

Toilet water - apparently it is pretty clean, because so much extra than necessary gets washed down that nothing germy remains.

The cunt thing - genius.

Everything else - hang in there, detach, try not to react. She is really pushing for a fight (ds does that) and wants you to react so it can all be your fault.

Maybe she will get bored [hopeful] ds never does

Lilka Sun 10-Nov-13 14:42:19

Moomoomie - that sounds very interesting, yes I'd love a copy if you can get the slides smile Lying is almost a compulsion for her sadly - she will only tell the truth (ie. own up to something) if you pause and give her time to think a bit, anything immediate and she'll just lie. If you ask her 'why did you do x,y,z/lie about it' she'd just look at you blankly or make up a lie about that

Maryz - Bored??!! Hahahahaha grin I've borrowed some advice from another mum/foster carer of kids like DD and told her I bet she can't jump on the trampoline for an hour. So she's off to accept the challenge, and I hope burn off some of the energy required to keep up the oppositional behaviour

I am acting very detached and calm. I can save my ranting for Mumsnet! Also she is most definitely pushing for a fight.

Is toilet water really that clean? Okay, the water is clean but the sides of the bowl probably have invisible dried urine and invisible poo particles on. It's grossing me out badly, even though my mouth could not possibly be cleaner this moment after my frenzied tooth brushing session and copious use of mouthwash!!

I thought my cunt tactic was quite clever too wink grin I nicked that off another adoptive mum as well

FamiliesShareGerms Sun 10-Nov-13 14:50:03

Apologies for the Daily Mail link, but ice from takeaways is worse than toilet water, if that helps... (I know it doesn't. Hang in there.)

Maryz Sun 10-Nov-13 16:00:45

The thing is that germs in your own toilet are your own germs. They aren't as likely to make you sick as you think they will, as they are floating around your own system anyway.

So whatever is in the invisible dried urine and poo is probably just what's in your stomach anyway <generalises hugely in a totally non-knowledgable but ignorantly supportive manner>

What to do about the tantrum, I don't know. I have to confess to occasionally deliberately having the row that I know is coming, because the alternative is to live with an increasingly wound-up elastic band. Sometimes just cutting it and taking the consequences clears the air.

Which I'm sure is absolutely the wrong advice but sometimes needs must

musickeepsmesane Sun 10-Nov-13 16:17:01

Ingenious. I have tried all sorts of tactics and always found when you get the right balance of nonsense and couldn't care less it works like a dream. I once made a bogey sandwich because I was beyond fed up if watching that finger drilling up there. Also I started dressing inside our and back to front. So we matched. Both these worked beautifully for a while. I like the website mylittleprince and fasd stories on American mums blogs. They share about their little radishes. (Diagnosis severe rad so extreme parenting)

ghostonthecanvas Sun 10-Nov-13 16:21:45

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

musickeepsmesane Sun 10-Nov-13 16:51:15

RAD stories, not FASD. reactive attachment disorder.

Lilka Sun 10-Nov-13 19:30:17


<Chris Tarrant voice>

When you're an angry 17 year old with a serious trauma history, PTSD, FASD and attachment issues, and your mum makes you buy her a new toothbrush with your pocket money and piggy bank savings, since you stuck her old one down the bog, do you:

A) Apologise and admit your wrongdoing. Express sadness that you now can't buy the things you wanted to buy because you've lost your money, but recognise that it was your own fault


B) Go rant on Facebook to your birth mum, and tell your birth mum that your evil mum took away your pocket money and piggy bank money for NO REASON at all, she just wanted some more money for herself, and hence make your birth mum angry and upset on your behalf. Express deep sadness to your birth mum that you now can't buy the things you wanted to buy, then be pleased by the support and affirmation of how deeply unfair it was to have your money stolen from you.'s a tricky question. Tell you what, I'll extend the time limit on answering to make it more fair for you the contestants. Anyone want to phone a friend or ask the audience for advice? wink

Lilka Sun 10-Nov-13 19:32:40

Should say that I'm not too bothered by this, birth mum can fall for whatever she wants to fall for, and DD isn't going to get anything out of this

Maryz Sun 10-Nov-13 19:37:44

B of course hmm

Especially when her AMum is a right bitch who is always punishing her for no reason at all.

RudolphLovesoftplay Sun 10-Nov-13 19:38:52

I have been in this board for yonks and only just realised I don't know what FASD means hmm I always thought it was foetal alcohol, but it's not is it? Sorry for total ignorance but could someone fill me in?

Lilka Sun 10-Nov-13 19:43:16

WRONG, Maryz, the answer is A! wink grin

Rudolph Yes it is Foetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder, you're right smile

RandomMess Sun 10-Nov-13 19:44:03

Can I just say.

You're all amazing, I'd have disappeared to a desert island one my own by now!

Lilka Sun 10-Nov-13 19:44:59

I sometimes refer to DD as having FAE (Foetal Alcohol Effects) as well, which is another (superceded by using 'FASD' in most places i think) way of saying alcohol exposure has caused neurological/behavioural etc issues, but no facial symptoms, facial symptoms lead to a dx of full FAS

Maryz Sun 10-Nov-13 19:45:14

No, you wouldn't Random.

We aren't amazing (well, actually Lilka is pretty amazing, but most of us aren't), we just take everything one day at a time.

Maryz Sun 10-Nov-13 19:46:47

I'm beginning to wonder whether or not ds's birth mother might have had alcohol or drug issues.

The more I read on here the less convinced I am of his AS diagnosis, I've often wondered was there more to it. And we have no background information about him at all.


Lilka Sun 10-Nov-13 19:47:46

I'm no more amazing than Maryz is, and many of the other mums here. Honestly Maryz you're one of the people I'll always ask for advice on difficult teen issues, you've been such a help this year with your message of detachment and looking after myself, I need reminding of that a lot

Maryz Sun 10-Nov-13 19:50:24

We should set up a Mutual Admiration Society.

Though, really, a quick trip over to the SN boards is enough to convince me that parents will do anything, literally anything for their children.

We only realise how much we can cope with when it's chucked at us. And pretty much every parent copes with what they have to cope with. That's what's amazing.

Hayleyh34 Sun 10-Nov-13 19:51:49

Don't know what to say Lilka as that all sounds so tough. Didn't want not add my support though.

Stay strong

RandomMess Sun 10-Nov-13 19:53:40

You are though, because you have taken one day at a time, and you come here and tell it how it is - no sugar coating.

I often think that just the level of emotional neglect that went on that isn't known about could be enough to contribute to issues as well as the crap you do know about IYSWIM.

RudolphLovesoftplay Sun 10-Nov-13 19:55:42

Oh ok!! Lilka, you are bloody amazing, the things I read on here that you have dealt with are mind boggling. I admire you immensely and when my boys are older I hope I have your courage.

Maryz Sun 10-Nov-13 19:57:19

Yes, I think that is right.

I've realised over the years that what happens in pregnancy has a much greater effect on a child than anyone realises. Not just drink/drugs/lack of food, but also stress/upset/emotional issues.

It must be awful to be pregnant and find yourself in a position where you don't want/can't keep your child. Or that your life is such a mess you simply can't cope.

I had a horrible pregnancy with ds2. But I also had a husband, enough money to buy in a couple of mornings help with the older ones, and very supportive parents. And food and shelter.

I can't imagine having to do it all alone as both my children's birth mothers did sad

RandomMess Sun 10-Nov-13 20:07:54


I know, and I get the rage when people post "all they need is love"

I want to scream and shout and swear and shake them hard and say "no, they are emotionally brain damaged and love on it's own isn't going to be enough"

and the other thing that gives me the rage is when they go on about a mothers right to breast feed her baby, have it with her in prison, not have social services take babies away a few days after birth. I just feel that these posters have no idea what some peoples lives are like angry

I just wish I had enough in me to actually help a child in that boat.

Maryz Sun 10-Nov-13 20:16:08

I wouldn't be had I got pregnant easily.

I never made a decision to help a child. I just selfishly wanted one.

RandomMess Sun 10-Nov-13 20:21:45

Yes I know, I understand but I just think of the older teens in care, who haven't gone off the rails and wish I had the money and space and personality to offer them a half way house.

Never did understand why we have that insane selfish desire to want dc, I mean it defies all logic!

Moomoomie Sun 10-Nov-13 21:08:14

Maryz... It is interesting that you question your sons ASD diagnosis. Children that have FASD tend to show signs of ADHD and ASD often dyspraxia and dyslexia too.
If a child is exhibiting behaviours of both ADHD and ASD and there is a history of alcohol, the signs are of FASD.
It is really only very recently that more research is being done in the

Lilka Mon 11-Nov-13 12:05:34

Oh she's back at college

The JOY!!

She had the gall to tell me a list of things I will be buying for christmas (that's how she phrased it!) on the way out.... <rolleyes>

Andro Mon 11-Nov-13 14:23:15

and I get the rage when people post "all they need is love"

Even when you adopt a child who's bio mum didn't have drug or alcohol issues, that child (or in my case children - I adopted bio siblings) need a damn sight more than just love <looks at DS who has had grief counseling, trauma counseling, phobia therapy, amnesia for years (now resolved) and still has PTSD as well as a fully packed 'go bag' in case he has to leave without notice>

All they need is love...I wish!

Andro Mon 11-Nov-13 14:23:44

Lilka - you're doing great!

Lilka, you are fantastic. I just wanted to tell you that.

Kewcumber Tue 12-Nov-13 20:47:51

Lilka - no advice, except "Eeeeuuuw"

Hope that helps.

Kewcumber Tue 12-Nov-13 20:48:56

RandomMess - can I just saying ignore Maryz - she is not wonderful by her own admission. I however am bloody marvellous.

Lilka Tue 12-Nov-13 22:11:35

Totally true though Kew

and sympathies with the disgustingness are welcome grin

My lovely new toothbrush is NOT ever going to be outside the medical cabinet unattended until DD has left home...which isn't anytime soon

She blew this morning, big time. There's a new hole in her door. She didn't go to college. It lasted, ooh, two and a half hours?

The good news is, it's over now and she's not anywhere as oppsitional now. In fact, she's relative calm and we managed to pick up furniture together, tidy up together and she even let me touch her and brush her hair. And earlier this evening we managed another hair brush while talking a little bit about feelings

The highlight of our feelings conversations went mostly like this (she was sitting at my feet while I brushed):
She stamped her hand down on my foot

"You hit my foot with your hand, and it hurt"
"That's okay...why are you sorry?"
"I said sorry because i hit your hand"
"Right, that's how you use the word sorry, well done. How do you feel inside when you say sorry"
"Do you think that people feel something when they say sorry?"
"Umm...sorry isn't a feeling, is it? You say it when people get upset with you"

Its nice to get confirmation of what I really knew anyway, which was that she knows how to use sorry in theory, but doesn't feel the emotions. I don't believe she really feels remorse about anything.

But how do I work on that? I have no idea. Maybe it's too late and unfixable sad

Lilka Tue 12-Nov-13 22:13:04

ps. Kew you are awesome. Sit on your throne of awesomness and we will all bask in the halo of light grin

pps. I am bloody exhausted. Bed, bed, bed, bed, bed, bed...

Maryz Tue 12-Nov-13 22:14:19

That's the type of conversation I used to have with ds back in the dim dark past when he actually talked to me sad

It's so odd to talk to someone who genuinely has no instinctive idea of what the fuck you mean.

KosmoKramer Tue 12-Nov-13 22:20:21

God, you lot are brilliant.

KosmoKramer Tue 12-Nov-13 22:21:10

And I have poached all of your teenage parenting tips to use on my own ASD teen.

Lilka Tue 12-Nov-13 22:30:41

It's so odd to talk to someone who genuinely has no instinctive idea of what the fuck you mean


She can appear normal sometimes...i mean, imagine I hadn't asked her "Why are you sorry?" and you just read the conversation up until that point..she would appear normal, because over the years I (and various therapists and teachers) have managed to teach her some appropriate reactions eg. when to say sorry. But that just disguises the fact that the feelings aren't there

DD1 has a very good relationship with me now, but she used to seriously struggle and definite attachment issues. It was clear to me that the actions were faked, but other people just found her to be a normal friendly girl.

One day she came home and said her friend was talking about how she loved her mum so much and DD1 said, "but I don't know what she's talking about" sad

Maryz Tue 12-Nov-13 22:40:57

Oh, God, Kosmo, don't use mine. Mine all went badly tits-up hmm

I realised ds had a big problem when he was about 6 and I had to teach him what to do in the playground.

He had to learn off by heart "What do you do if you knock someone down?" "I stop. I say 'are you ok?' I don't run off until they get up again."

I had to teach it to him.

And the day that I asked him why he hugged my mum (he hasn't hugged me since I think he was about 2, and hasn't let me hug him either) and he replied "because I've learned that she likes it".


ds loved the dog. And I think he loved ds2 when he was little. But that's about it. I don't think he knows what love is. And he certainly doesn't do remorse. As he said once, when he was quite small "I don't have to say sorry? Either something is an accident in which case I shouldn't have to say sorry, or I did it on purpose in which case I won't say sorry, because I meant to do it".

I should write a book about him, really [sigh]

Lilka Tue 12-Nov-13 22:45:39

Oh Maryz

What can you say to that? It's logically relatively sound. Just like i can't say 'actually, sorry IS a feeling' to DD because feelings are subjective and it's genuinely not a feeling to her. I can only frame it in terms of 'other people feel like this' which is tricky because of the empathy issue

Lilka Tue 12-Nov-13 22:47:28

I don't believe my DD has RAD by the way. The whole 'control issues, empathy issues, revenge issues' can sound a bit like RAD because I've had several people mention that to me already, but no, she does have attachment issues, and was assessed as having an ambivalent style, but I think it's a combination of attachment, PTSD and brain damage from alcohol which definitely affects this kind of thing

Maryz Tue 12-Nov-13 22:51:47

It's all a spectrum of behaviour isn't it?

I think a lot of these things sort of interact, and are all to do with wonky brain wiring, caused by various experiences and various things lacking at important developmental stages.

So it can be alcohol in pregnancy, lack of attention as a baby, whatever. The cause, and the diagnosis can be pretty irrelevant to the behaviour sad

Lilka Tue 12-Nov-13 22:52:58

I'd agree with that totally

Moomoomie Wed 13-Nov-13 10:10:08

Exactly Maryz, it is all neurological so there are no definitive answers.
I think we are all trying to do our best for our children, we learn by our mistakes.
Sometimes I would love to remove dd3 brain ( just for a short time!!) and really analyse it to find the answers.

fasparent Wed 13-Nov-13 10:42:47

DS was diagnosed FASD, came came home from school crying " In trouble again (age 12) why can't anyone help me , don't mean too upset
or hurt other's" CAMHS were next too useless, school exclusion's around 3 a term. School were great he did 11 GCSE's., Was a matter of using a large DIY Kit, lots of research, and praying . Is now an Adult with own family , Still has brain damage but has learn control.
Our Kids despite their horrendous start in life can survive with love and understanding of their conditions, and become responsible Adult's.

Maryz Wed 13-Nov-13 11:25:38

Yes, I'd like to take ds1's head apart, reattach a few of the screws that are loose <said tongue in cheek before anyone jumps on me hmm) and put it all back together properly.

I'm sure it's all there, it's just wired up wrong. It would be a particularly satisfactory jigsaw project.

I do hope you are right fas. I'm really struggling with ds atm. He just can't seem to get himself together at all out in the real world. School was awful, since he left it only seems to get more awful sad

Thumbwitch Wed 13-Nov-13 11:48:55

I may be well out of place suggesting anything here as I have no knowledge of the daily struggles you have with your children, but since a couple of you have mentioned PTSD I wondered if there was any benefit to be had from talking to a group called Talking 2 Minds. Although they were started by and for ex-service people, they do also deal with civilian cases and they might be able to offer something to your children? If they can't themselves, they might know of another similar organisation who could.

I know some of you are very self-deprecating but I think you're wonderful for looking after these damaged children and doing your utmost to help them, despite everything they throw at you. thanks and wine to you all.

fasparent Wed 13-Nov-13 12:22:25

DS was diagnosed FASD, came came home from school crying " In trouble again (age 12) why can't anyone help me , don't mean too upset
or hurt other's" CAMHS were next too useless, school exclusion's around 3 a term. School were great he did 11 GCSE's., Was a matter of using a large DIY Kit, lots of research, and praying . Is now an Adult with own family , Still has brain damage but has learn control.
Our Kids despite their horrendous start in life can survive with love and understanding of their conditions, and become responsible Adult's.

fasparent Wed 13-Nov-13 12:44:49

Maryz think with us was down too chance had a school who were up too the challenge they has a small SEN Unit attached, was very much a school and parent partnership. Even when he was excluded for good in his last year, home tutored, too much of a distraction for other pupils, they helped his continued education , he just went in for exams.
This is the system we used with school still best there is

FestiveEdition Sun 17-Nov-13 07:58:57

<notes, this is picking up on the emotional connection issues raised mid-thread, not relevant to the toothbrush!!>

I feel very much an intruder onto this thread ( stumbled on by accident, looking for something else !) but have been so moved by reading the personal details expressed about defining/feeling emotions, that I could not simply read and run.

Firstly, and most importantly, I am not an adoptive parent. However I am the mother of an adult DD with ASD which was not diagnosed until adulthood (when she was at school, Aspergers wasn't even on the diagnostic register!).
We walked towards her diagnosis hand in hand, researched together in-depth, and I have been blessed that she is both intelligent and articulate enough for us to explore the real issues and mechanics of lack of emotions and emotional connection
I am going somewhere with this, I promise

While I in no way compare the effects of trauma, FAS, etc directly with Aspergers, the issue of failure to comprehend emotions is remarkably similar from the details you have given here. I have no idea if it is of benefit to share what I have learned from my DD but I really hope so, and if not ..... I guess this can be ignored without harm smile

DD tells me that she cannot process what we know as 'guilt' because her inability to empathise means she does not see that her actions cause someone else to feel something she does not - and can never - feel herself. (DD likens it to explaining the colour blue to a blind person)
If the issue is pushed, because she is actually incapable of feeling guilt, the default emotion engendered is anger. That is always the default when processing fails.
She grew up with boundaries and guidance, so acquired saying sorry as essentially a diversion tactic. "I say sorry = people quit pushing me".
I have had to learn that this is enough. However much I would like her to realise that her actions cause real pain for others, she simply cannot process this through her wiring. It is not a choice issue for her. However, she functions adequately in an adult world by 'faking it'.

We have both come to believe that teaching 'faking it' has been the key to her surviving as an independent adult, with a full life of friends, partner etc etc. It has transformed her life, over the past 8 years (she is now 36)

For us, the best step forward came when we worked out that trying to teach her how to feel was never going to work. What worked was teaching her to use the "right" tools and approach on a learned basis ( very much the way that Maryz daughter has learned to give a hug to someone because they like it DD now hugs people according to their place in her scale of 'belonging', because it is a nice thing to do for them. We wrote the list of appropriate people to hug, together!!)
It has been so very weird, explaining things such as : say two sentences, and then shut up and let the next person speak (social exchanges much improved) but that shift in my headset to explaining how (and why) to fake it, as opposed to trying to explain why she should actually feel something (which she can't feel) has been life changing.
The culmination will probably be that she won't grieve for me when I finally kick the bucket (not in her emotional range) but will miss her problem solver and will fake it pretty well at the funeral because "people expect it".

As I said, I have no idea of this is of any useful input, and could probably be reported and removed as mis-posted in inappropriate place, if I have somehow overstepped a boundary.
Its just that my heart broke hearing mothers post about screwed emotional wiring, and it really didn't seem to matter much if I was talking to adoptive mums or any other kind of mum.

Hels20 Sun 17-Nov-13 08:39:32

What an elegant post, Festive Edition. My sister who would now be mid 30s had ASD I think (she died a few years back) and I wish I had understood her problems more growing up and had read something like this post in my teenage years when her inability to empathise really pushed the whole family to its limits. Thank you.

Moomoomie Sun 17-Nov-13 10:15:04

Thank you so much for that post, FestiveEdition.
Please, don't think you can't post on an adoption thread because you have not adopted.
Dd3 sounds very much like your dd. it is reassuring to hear of positive futures.
Hels20..... Sorry for your loss

Lilka Sun 17-Nov-13 12:06:59

Thanks for your post Festive Please don't feel you aren't welcome to post here, we welcome pretty much everyone, except the obvious shit stirrers, goaders, trolls and people who won't listen to reason etc. Please do feel free to post if you feel you have anything to add anytime

I definitely agree with you that my daughter doesn't feel the same emotional range. Her empathy is definitely way lower than the normal range of empathy, I think she has developed a little over time, but it's maybe level 2 or 3 on a scale of 1-10, and NT people are all at least on level 5/6.

When it comes to love and attachment to me, I do believe she has formed an (insecure) attachment to me, and she feels love. For instance, when she was admitted to hospital in June, she started shrieking 'mum, mum, mum, mum, I want mum' over and over and she meant me. Not that she was actually calmed much by my presence but that's classic ambivalent attachment. I've seen a couple of children who are truly unattached and have reactive attachment disorder, and if they were in DD's place, they wouldn't have cared in the slightest that their parents weren't there. Also I think the times she has demonstrated some trust in me and desire for close contact, hugs, rocking, show her attachment.

It's great that your daughter has been able to do so well with your guidance smile I am hopeful that DD2 can learn more social skills and be able to fake things better. I don't expect her to be able to 'heal' emotionally from what's happened to her, nor will her FASD ever change. But I hope we can still see progress on some level. You are totally right Festive that expectations can make a big big difference. If I had been expecting her to be able to feel real guilt, remorse by now etc, I would be desperately sad and worried and feel like a failure. I think adjusting your mindset, expectations and hopes etc for your child is a really really hard thing to come to terms with if you find your child has special needs, whether it's ASD, FASD, RAD or anything else, that you didn't know about when you adopted them or gave birth to them. To some extent it's been a bit different with DD2 because I went in choosing a special needs child and had a certain mindset and different set of expectations because I was actively choosing a child with emotional issues, but I've still been required on MANY occasions to come to terms with unexpected, new things which are really hard

I think I went of on a tangent there and waffled again

Anyway, thank you Festive, please keep posting if you have anything else to say smile

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