Mumsnet Talk

Was made redundant in Sep 2011 while on maternity leave. As I had a new baby and a toddler I didn't bother applying for any new jobs.

I applied for and accepted a job via a recruitment agency a few weeks ago. I gave them two references from previous employers which were glowing. Recruitment agency have now said I must provide either a work reference for the time I have been out of work, evidence of JSA or evidence I've been travelling iw visa/permit

obviously I don't have any of the above as I've been a SAHM. Have explained this to agency. They don't care and have said they will withdraw the job offer unless I provide what they have asked for. Was meant to be starting job this Wednesday. Was so excited.

Can you not get a personal reference from someone to confirm you weren't working during that period? That's usually acceptable.

Get family to write a reference for you?

Why is it up to them? Presumably if you have an offer you are in touch with the employer direct? Have you rung your prospective line manager to find out whether it's a problem?

I would contact the employer directly as flowery suggests. You 'won' the job by impressing the interviewer, the agency can do one if they aren't happy with your lack of references

Did you claim any benefits whilst a sahm? If they will take proof of JSA then maybe tax credits/child benefit or similar?

Very bizarre though. This must come up a lot!

That sounds dodgy. They shouldnt retract a job offer after you have provided references unless the references were unsatisfactory. if this were the case they have to tell you. Suddenly asking for a third and then dictating where it has to come from in such black and white terms that dont apply to your situation? and your reason for being out of work is valid! I'd offer character reference or nothing.

Sorry but alarm bells are ringing! Have you used this agency before/known anyone who has?

Another one who thinks you should call the company directly. Their HR should be checking refs anyway.

That's ridiculous! I spent 2 years as a SAHM. I have had 2 different jobs since then, neither has queried my 2 year 'career break' or asked for any proof of what I was doing.

You probably got some lackey at the recruitment agancy who had a list of what they should ask for and won't accept anything else. I would ask to speak to the manager at the recruitment agency or contact the employer directly.

If they really need something, could you get a letter from the health visitor or a childrens centre worker to confirm you were a SAHM during this time?

I suppose the children could write your reference

Call the company directly.

Crazy! I've just gone back to work after 4 years as a SAHM and they were happy with the references from my previous job. Doesn't sound professional to me.

Could you get your children to draw a picture of you doing your job? That's a reference from your current employers (ie your DC)

That makes no sense! What about one from DP as he was 'employing' you to look after your DC?

It sounds like they want to check the gap in your CV to ensure that you haven't been employed and then sacked for misconduct (and so you aren't declaring it on your CV) or had an "unexplained" break eg at Her Majesty's convenience. Ask whether you can provide a personal referee, I think it would have to be a professional, perhaps the DCs head teacher would be willing? Anything that will prove you have been out of work. Child benefit statement?

Yes, get the kids to do a reference! That'll learn em.

Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer.

I had this once. The agency said it was in case I was in prison, but I suspect they didn't have a clue what they were on about!

Are they doing background checks on you including credit checks?
We do this where I work and we accept a copy of your child's long birth certificate as proof of your activity as a sahm.

Hmmm. Seems odd and I wonder what employment law would say about this.

I ask candidates to explain career gaps. Having a family, caring for an elderly relative are all valid. That's a different question to references though

It's the agency trying to tick boxes, I have come across this before. They are, of course, being ridiculous.

Ask to speak to the agency branch manager or talk to the company who want to employ you directly.

It would be so tempting to send something from the children.

A reference for nurse, carer, cook, entertainer, cleaner. Then they can sign it with painted hand prints.

When I worked in HR, if there were gaps in applicants CVs that couldn't be verified by another means then we would ask them to write a statement of fact, confirming the situation and sign it. Like all other references, if it turned out to be dodgy (ie they had been in worked but sacked) then the fact that they had signed it to say it was truthful would be sufficient for dismissal.

References these days only confirm dates anyway, so are always very basic.

It is common place for people to have gaps in their CVs - esp SAHPs or those made redundant. I would be very surprised that a job was withdrawn because of a gap. In fact, I wouldn't want to work for a company who did that.

In a very early role (back in 90s) we had someone who claimed to be travelling for a period. They were actually in prison for drug dealing. As they had signed a disclaimer to say that they had no criminal offenses (it was financial company) we sacked them for gross misconduct.

Go back to the agency to suggest this - but also address this with them for future roles. What is their approach? Given they have put you on their books, I am surprised that they haven't already had that discussion with you.

how can they expect you to prove a negative? (negative in the sense of you not doing something, as opposed to a sahm being negative!)

i second getting the kids to scrawl you a reference in crayon!

I had a very similar problem recently, I provided personal references, I ended up providing about 10 when they finally accepted one, I second what the others have said about contacting the employer direct

I had a job through a recruitment agency following a similar situation and they were just looking for proof to cover the time from my previous job till then, rather than a reference as such, just to show I had been doing what I said, ie maternity leave/at home with kids. They were happy with the birth certificates of my twins as proof.

Ask health visitor to do a reference? Or at least a note confirming you were a sahp.

"References these days only confirm dates anyway, so are always very basic."

Not necessarily true and a common misconception.

This sounds really dodgy. Have you spoke to one of the agency grown ups or just the gomer in the office?

Can't you give them the dc birth certificates along with child benefit or tax credits letters?

The recruitment agency is Manpower (probably not allowed to say this!) and the job is for a government department. I suppose technically Manpower is my employer although I will be working at the government department.

I spoke to the recruitment manager at Manpower and explained that I have been a SAHM. She is adamant the job offer will be withdrawn. I know the references they've got are excellent as both previous employers sent me a copy of what they provided.

Never claimed JSA, don't receive any tax credits. Do receive child benefit. Maybe they will accept this, thought I doubt it. Never occured to me it would be a problem as agency have seen my CV and I explained about being a SAHM.

Can't stop crying.

So you're temping for a company through Manpower?

This is ridiculous and you must have some way to do this. Can CAB help with something like this?

Ok so I would ask to speak to her manager or ask to see a copy of the regulations about this. Surely if none of the situations apply to you they must understand you can't produce the documents!

I do remember when I stopped work and therefore stopped paying my student loan payments, the student loans company asked for a letter from DH to confirm that he was supporting me and I was not in paid employment . Could you offer the same thing?

If they don't budge I would go to the citizens advice bureau.

Sounds like process gone mad. They probably have an agreement in place about referencing covering any gaps (as a previous poster said, to prove you weren't in prison). I don't think this has eve been tested, but I would think that if you can offer some proof that you were a SAHM - a character reference type thing, then they ought to accept that, otherwise I would think this is in the territory of indirect sex discrimination. I would speak again, offer a character ref for the period, and state your belief that this is sex discrimination if they refuse to accept it (because women are more likely to be in this situation than men). If that doesn't work, follow up in writing and copy in the most senior person you can find.

Would your DP/DH write a letter to support your sahm status for that period of time?

bloody discriminatory if you ask me.

I'd be tempted to get my husband to write me a reference. REALLY sarcastic.

MyFurby has been employed as my wife and mother of my children for X years. Her main duties have been childcare and housework. I have always found her to be...

I think it's bloody awful, to be perfectly honest and I question whether they are allowed to behave like this.

Poor you! After you've done so well getting the job offer!
Your contact there is obviously sticking entirely to the rulebook but there must be some room for leeway as if not don't they run into discrimination issues? not 100% on that but it seems to me they are actively preventing SAHP from returning to the workplace. I wouldnt mention that at this stage though, call them again to tomorrow, suggest a signed personal statement from you and a personal reference from another responsible person.
Hope you get it sorted, she sounds like a jobs worth, could be worth asking if there is anyone else who can take a decision on this. Good luck!

Contact the REC. Bonkers

This is stupid I had 4 years as a sahm and worked through an agency and they just accepted I had been Sahm. I would hope they accept birth certificate.

Who is paying you? You're temping at a government department can't you just turn up on Wednesday and speak to directly

Thank you everyone for wise words and advice.

Really helping 'talking' it through with people. My DH has come home from work early to help with the dc's while I have a mini breakdown over this.

All is not lost, OP.

Initial thoughts; you can cobble something together to satisfy this Manpower idiot, even though you shouldn't have to (and if course it's up to you to decide if you want up work for them in the first place etc and so on)

Any doc with the start dates of child benefit on
Copy (copy only, Fgs don't give them the original) of birth certificate if DC
Perhaps even go crazy and get your GP to sign something saying "X and DC have been under my care from Date to Date"

That all means NOTHING in TNE real world but is probably enough for the strip-lit offal at Manpower to feel that she's got what she needs.

Call them first thing and say, pleasantly, that you'll have 'a reference' ASAP them get that crap together, smile sweetly and hand it over. Don't huff and puff, let them think they've won

I think this is v long, sorry.

If you are working for a central government department you would get security cleared which in some cases would involve a check of your criminal history and whether you have been in prison. Have the agency confirmed it is them kicking up a fuss and not the govt dept? I assume the agency remain your 'employer' if they are directly paying you from their purse.
They do seem difficult, perhaps bring the DC into the agency office, plonk them on the jobsworth's desk and go 'this is who I have been working for for the last x years'. I would have thought the child benefit letters should be sufficient, what more proof do they need?
OP, best of luck, hope you can sort this out.

Ask your doctor or HV for a declaration that you have been SAHM.Alternatively ask any professional who knows you well to do the same-that should suffice.

And those saying 'go to the employer (gov dept)' -- OP won't get through the door and Manpower will never get her another assignment.

I worked in gov depts for an agency for years

LO Birth certificate ?

How very very odd.
Sounds like a terminal case of jobsworthitis.

Manpower will be getting their instructions from the client - agencies don't deliberately try to stop candidates from getting a job - how will they make their money? Go back to Manpower and ask them if a reference from your husband will suffice.

Where I work, we aim to get reference history to cover 3 years, and the most recent employment/study reference. Obviously this isn't always possible, but we usually cover gaps with a character reference, which the appointing managers usually have to just suck up. (Never normally any complaints though)

We don't allow appointing managers to simply withdraw the offer of employment without written warning, and without us being able to prove that we've done enough to chase the necessary checks. It would leave us wide open and the HR managers (rightly) get very snippy about it!

We do, however, send generic warning letters after two failed attempts to get a reference. This doesn't mean that we want to withdraw the offer, it is just generic, and withdrawing the offer is the absolute final step.

I would call them first thing tomorrow and ask if a character reference will be sufficient. Do you know anyone who can give a character reference for you?

Yes I have been security cleared - had to complete something called a Disclosure Scotland and have a CRB and credit check - all have come back fine. I have worked in central government previously and have been security cleared so many times...

kalidanger you are right I would never get through the doors tmwr if I just turned up at the government office. Having worked in gov myself I know there is no point ringing up the person who interviewed me and wants me to work there. I know she too will be obsessed with ticking all the boxes.

I did have an issue with Manpower over proving I had a right to work in the UK. They wanted to see my passport - unfortunately I couldn't find it (haven't travelled abroad since the dcs). Showed them NI card, birth certificate and driving license but again they had to have passport. Had endless phone calls from them about this, how they needed to see it, how it is the only thing that would do. Was told I would have to get a new one re-issued just for them. Luckily after ransacking the house and more hysteria I found it.

Starting to hate this agency.

Just to add - he only needs to confirm you have been a SAHM and give the dates. All they need is signed confirmation. Fingers crossed and good luck!

When I was looking for work after being SAHM, I got a reference from a T.A. at my child's primary school and another one from the person who ran my child's pre-school - they were both 'personal' references but would also have alluded to how they knew me, i.e. when I brought my child to their school/pre-school, therefore showing that I was SAHM? Would you have anyone like this that you could ask?

Agree with what some others have said though, it sounds dodgy and very inflexible. If it's to prove you haven't been in prison, a CRB check would soon sort that wouldn't it? As an aside, could you consider having a CRB check done yourself so you could use it in future? hth and good luck x

Showed them NI card, birth certificate and driving license but again they had to have passport. Had endless phone calls from them about this, how they needed to see it, how it is the only thing that would do. Was told I would have to get a new one re-issued just for them. Luckily after ransacking the house and more hysteria I found it.

It's not hysteria - it's a legal requirement which if you don't provide they will get fined for.

Surely this is sexual discrimination? Not sure of the legalities of it, but it should be IMO.

You surely can't be the first former SAHP they have employed - could you ask them to clarify what previous candidates have done in the same position?

If you don't get any sensible help maybe you could contact Manpower's head office... It's pretty awful publicity for them and I'm sure they would find a solution quickly enough!

Dio you need to be security cleared for this role?

Surely this is sexual discrimination?

Not at all - the same would apply to a father if he had stayed at home. Recruitment agencies have to comply with strict regulation to protect their clients/employees and themselves.

Having a government contract they will be instructed as to what criteria they must follow and by law they must do that. It is a pain but if I am told by my client they want to see this that or the other then that is what I must show or provide.

"It sounds like they want to check the gap in your CV to ensure that you haven't been employed and then sacked for misconduct (and so you aren't declaring it on your CV) or had an "unexplained" break eg at Her Majesty's convenience."

This is absolutely right. It's their ass on the line if they place you with a client without going through their due diligence.

IME if you are too defensive about this, they'll think you have something sinister to hide.

You can get a couple of letters and telephone numbers from people who know you well and have good standing in the community (police officers, doctors etc.)

It's UNBELIEVABLE that they haven't had to employ one othe SAHM before and, frankly, they don't know thier own processes.

Starting to hate this agency.

Oh, it's awful isn't it. I got lucky with Brook Street in the end. Holborn branch does gov if you're in London.....

I had to do this, also for a central government department, though not via a recruitment agency. Iwasn't even given a start date until I cleared security - it took two months. I had to find references that covered three perioeds of maternity leave and I had been abroad for the first one so had to dig out 7 year old child benefit claims (in another language), plus I used to be self-employed. I had to show proof of address for 5years, also a pain because we had rented and moved a lot abroad.

For references I provided (on top of employer references) two personal references from friends who worked in professional jobs - they couldn't use personal email addresses eg, gmail.

I would try and use personal references rather than argue about the terms - they are unlikely to make an exception for you I'm afraid, unless your job is very very senior or exceptionally unusual.

Unfortunately, I have come across exactly this problem!

This was a teaching supply agency and I was trying to get some supply work after maternity leave and a year's career break. I had taught for ten years, been on SLT and great references.

This was one of the largest supply agencies, part of a chain.

They would not accept that I had been a SAHM for that year, would not accept a reference from voluntary work that I had been doing in that time (even though that was CRB checked voluntary work with the NHS) and finally accepted a personal reference from a friend, although they were very suspicious of her professional standing - she is something similar to a counsellor.

This was nothing to do with safeguarding but apparently to do with some form of accreditation for recruitment agencies!

Months later, they had an audit for this accreditation and phoned me before 9.00 out of the blue one morning asking for my MATB1 to prove that I had had maternity leave. I explained to them, very slowly, that as my child was now nearly two and that form had been given to the employer I was working for at the time, it was not very reasonable to ask for it! My friend had already received a call that morning asking them to re-write the reference and send it over ASAP to ensure it was up to date.

Oh, and I never got a day's supply work from them either!

Ummm, I don't see it could be a legal requirement to produce a passport. Some people don't own one. Happy to be told I'm wrong though.

the health visitor idea upthread was good, along with children's birth certs...

bloody ridiculous though - I mean a reference from her own husband smacks of inherent sexism, can you imagine the reverse scenario!?

someone should tweet them this thread

Just on the passport issue, we do not insist on a passport. After all, not everyone can provide one. We (large public sector employer) will accept a full UK birth certificate.

Surely this is sexual discrimination?

Not at all - the same would apply to a father if he had stayed at home.

Except this affects many many times more women than men, which makes it indirect sex discrimination.

I'd post this in legal and see what advice you get.

I suppose it's in the name though - Man power

Hope you get it sorted.

Littletyga - yes employers have to satisfy themselves that you have the right to work in the UK but this can be done n ways other than a passport - birth cert for example. Also it's potentially sex discrimination, not because they would treat a SAHD the same, but because the issue disproportionately affects women.

Hi Sorrel - if you're not a citizen of the country in which you are looking for work a passport with the proper stamps to say you are legally allowed to work is a legal requirement.

Office advice re valid documents here

www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/documents/employersandsponsors/preventingillegalworking/currentguidanceandcodes/comprehensiveguidancefeb08.pdf?view=Binary

What I am saying is if a man had a gap in his CV he would have to provide proof of his absence from the workplace too for whatever reason. Trust me - employment law is strict and all based have to be covered - we can't take anyone's word for anything and also what the client wants - the client gets!

branchingout that sounds horrific and not even to get any work after all that effort.

well I have emailed a good 'professional' friend and asked her if she can provide a personal reference for me.

To the poster who thought I was being 'defensive'. No not defensive just unable to provide a work reference, JSA or travel visa as requested by the agency because of being at home with my young children, as I had clearly explained to them when they interviewed me.

I am having a similar issue and cannot believe it!!! Sympathies to you.

I was in a 2 positions then 6 years ago left one to be part time in hte other while I had DD. So I have been in hte same job for 7 years (B) and was in another school before that (A). I have been on supply for 6 months and done voluntary stuff and tutoring (c) as I was made redundant from B...

Sooooo..... thre agencies wont have me becuase they need two references.... B have given me one reference and refuse more than one. A is over 5 years ago and C is for less than a year..

GGRRRRRRRRR

LittleTyga what you are talking about are procedures, not employment law. There is no law that states that UK citizens have to have a passport or references in order to obtain work.

^^You can get a couple of letters and telephone numbers from people who know you well and have good standing in the community (police officers, doctors etc.)

And you would have to pay for them. Do you really think that doctors and police officers have nothing better to do with their time than to write letters in order to satisfy box-ticking incompetents who cannot make a decision without sticking to moronic procedures which clearly do not take into account the reality of people's lives.

I would have thought it was sex discrimination on the grounds that it is a ruling likely to affect more women than men a bit like the not discriminating against part time workers is

If you truly don't get anywhere I would put it in writing that you are offering to sign a declaration or will go down the discrimination legal route

With regards to the passport though. In in the process of carrying out these right to work checks at work. If you don't have a passport you have to produce a birth certificate and it has to be the long one which gives your parents details not the short one anyone born before 2000 probably has. Plus one other document showing your national insurance number( licence won't do)

Walloon it IS a legal requirement for employers to carry out checks that show employees are entitled to work in the UK. Believe me, the small family firm I work for who previously relied on the word if mates would not be spending a lot of time and effort getting these checks done if they didn't have to. The home office issues very clear guidance.

I see that Manpower are up to their tricks again. I remember having my chain rattled over a summer job which was a certainty - I had induction, medical checks etc. only for it to be whipped away at the last minute as their wasn't the demand. Did they mention that ? Nope.

To this day I assiduously avoid them and when I am in a position to influence my curre t employment when they need casuals that is one agency I am avoiding.

Havi g said that a reference from the HV or GP is the best idea yet.

LittleTyga what you are talking about are procedures, not employment law. There is no law that states that UK citizens have to have a passport or references in order to obtain work.

Not if that UK citizen is looking for work in the UK - I don't know if the OP is from the UK, she hasn't said - but if she was from another country and needed a stamp from the Home Office it is a legal requirement.

Yes if the Government Office she is applying to just wants it as proof that is a procedure. Again I know nothing about the OP I'm just trying to help her.

Yes ATruth - health visitor ref sounds ideal.

Yes there is some new law regarding right to work in the country. I have worked for a university teaching one session a year for the last 6 years and this year had to produce a passport (which I don't have) or long form birth certificate (which I don't have). Ended up taking out of date passport plus short form birth certificate plus tax stuff, plus pointed out I have been working for them for years

LittleTyga appears to be saying that there is a legal requirement to prove what you have been doing while you're a SAH parent though, which isn't the case, nor is there a requirement to have a passport - a birth certificate will suffice.

Manpower are shit. They did similar to me years ago as they did to you, GeekLove - I was on the dole, got told I had a job, start date, induction details, everything, so signed off. Turned up for 'work' on my first day, and it was just a bunch of us sitting around a table being told that there wasn't any work for us but here's a load of crap about the company and our global standing and here's some leaflets detailing our structure and how great we are (the job was working on a factory production line). Fucking bastards.

And OP you have my sympathy - this country is going to the dogs.

And if they say yes they will accept a reference from your husband you should publicise that in a newspaper/on Twitter. It's appalling or have we suddenly been transported to Saudi Arabia?

Actually I would take this up with the person who interviewed you. I've recruited staff and I would be very less than impressed if a recruitment agency was ruling out very well qualified and suitable applicants because they couldn't provide documentary proof that they were a SAHM for a period of time.

I assume the form you completed has a section where you have to confirm whether or not you have any criminal convictions? My department certainly does data matching to check this and I doubt yours is any different.

And the passport issue is just wrong. It is not a requirement for UK citizens to hold a passport. There are other forms of ID that are acceptable to government departments to prove ID and citizenship for employment. This agency seems to have either lost the plot or be implementing blanket policies just to cover their arse.

Seriously OP I really would contact whoever interviewed you and query this. They are paying this agency for a fairly crap and ill informed service. Oh and agencies acting for government/public sector departments have to comply with all equality and diversity requirements that the department is obliged to uphold.

PlentyOfPubeGardens has made the clearest articulation as to why this might be considered indirect discrimination on the grounds of gender

this is putting me off registering with any agencies to try and find some work (been a sahm 6 yrs and don't have a passport.....)

hope you work it out op

Oh, I see you've asked a professional friend of yours - I'm sure that should be fine.

BTW I think my best set of references ever were from friends I'd met when I had DD and asked for references from them for a nanny job !

This is my opinion. I think they only want to verify that the period you were not working was spent as an SAHM. So get a personal reference from somebody you know. A vicar or priest would be ideal. But not everybody can get these. Or other responsible person known to you. I have seen forms saying any gaps in your CV must be accounted for. So it just sounds as if they are applying this to the letter.

I have to see evidence of right to work when recruiting. That DOES NOT have to be a passport. Personally I don't have one atm at all.

Not read all the thread but I work for Manpower they are my angency I had no passport mine is out of date and with my married name I had to get the full birth cert to show right for work.( which is how I found out that I was adopted at 38 years old ! )

I was crb checked I wasnt asked for proof to show I has out of work but NOT claimmng benfits. I just wrote it on my work history. Crb came back fine. It does sound you have a jobs worth there are a few in my local office. Go and ask for the manager I signed statment should be enough. Its only for work gapes to make sure you are not lying about being in prison etc am sure they cam check with the tax office. Good luck

^^You can get a couple of letters and telephone numbers from people who know you well and have good standing in the community (police officers, doctors etc.)

"And you would have to pay for them. Do you really think that doctors and police officers have nothing better to do with their time than to write letters in order to satisfy box-ticking incompetents who cannot make a decision without sticking to moronic procedures which clearly do not take into account the reality of people's lives."

As I said, "from people who know you" - don't know about your friends, but mine don't tend to charge me for favours.

The "moronic procedures" are set in an service level agreement with the client (i.e. the people the OP wants to work for), so you should aim your vitriol at them not the agency who are trying to be compliant with said agreement.

How would you feel if you discovered someone in a Public Service position had been in jail or accused of serious crimes and hadn't been checked properly?

Never had to do this in the five years I was at one of Manpowers rivals (left Aug 2011 to become a SAHM! )
I second contacting the REC.

Littletiger is right re the passport. British citizens can provide full birth cert and proof of Ni, but everyone else - passport or id card.

Hmm, would this be a department of the same government that is hell bent on getting mothers into the workplace? Interesting ...

Just asked DH who is an employment type with a lot of HR experience.

He suggests you approach them by saying 'I am sure that you don't mean to discriminate against me because of my gender, but could you clarify that this is what you are doing? You seem to be withdrawing a job offer because if my decision to stay at home and take care of my children for a period of time. Please confirm whether this is the case, so that so can proceed with legal advice.'

Then go to CAB or a solicitor.

Hope this helps.

^^ How would you feel if you discovered someone in a Public Service position had been in jail or accused of serious crimes and hadn't been checked properly?

The OP has said that they did a CRB check and it came back fine. So that isn't going to happen.

I fail to see what a letter from a friend (and not all of us have friends who are doctors or police officers - I certainly don't) would add to that.

ha- lovel LouisWalshdh's suggestion

I am also very much of the view that indirect sex discrimination is at play here, and I would dearly love to see Manpower brought up short on this. But the key thing I to get you in through the door.

I would write them a declaration that you certify that between x date and y date you were not employed, nor travelling, nor in prison, but at home raising your children. Sign it and submit it with a covering letter stating that this declaration is confirmation of your movements during the period in question, and that your legal advisors have indicated that it would be considered an act of indirect sex discrimination should manpower refuse to accept it as such. If this occurs, you will have no hesitation in taking action legal action recover all monies that will be lost as a result, which can of course be clearly measured.

Good luck.

YY to LouisWalsh'sDH;put it in writing(email) with a line like "please respond in writing within x days,if I do notrecieve a reply I will assume that what I have stated is correct"

I'm a HR Manager and think that IAmLouisWalsh's advice above is excellent.

My organisation works with vulnerable people and therefore we have to be extra careful with references, etc. However even despite this, if I believe that someone has been genuinely occupied as a SAHM, then I will accept a personal reference for them. To threaten job offer withdrawal because you have no policy for reference checking a current SAHM is in my view indirect discrimination.

LittleTyga appears to be saying that there is a legal requirement to prove what you have been doing while you're a SAH parent though, which isn't the case, nor is there a requirement to have a passport - a birth certificate will suffice.

Hi Wallison - not a legal requirement as such - but Manpower would have a contract (legal) with this Government office which would outline what their requirements are - Manpower have to abide by this contract.

I've worked in Recruitment for 20 years and currently run my own agency and have to do this stuff all day! I know not all Recruitment consultants are as lovely and efficient as me! and how Manpower treated you sounds awful.

I can't help the OP but had the same problem with Student Loans Company wanting DH's confirmation that I was being funded by him. He told them his financial affairs were none of their business.

Weirdly, though, the SLC had been told by HMRC that I had earned below the threshold in the appropriate year, but the SLC told me to get formal confirmation of that non-earning ... from HMRC. Whut?

I hope you find a resolution. Being arsey is a lovely idea in theory but the main objective is to get the job, which I guess in this case involves satisfying their crazy criteria.

I have also had the Student Loans thing. I couldn't believe it. I sent in a child tax credit form. They said they couldn't accept it. what they wanted was a little note from dh saying 'I support my little wifey'. Never felt so patronised or belittled for being a SAHM as though my word and the evidence of HRMC was not enough but a note from dh (which they had no ability to verify) was fine.

Gosh you should really highlight that student loans thing - that's APPALLING

Yes, LittleTyga, I realise that, but you said it was to do with "employment law" - it isn't.

It wasn't just me that Manpower treated dreadfully - there were loads of us there, all expecting to at least be given a day's work. One of the women said they'd done it three times to her. I'm sure that you are very good at your job but having been on the sharp end of zero-hours contracts from agencies and knowing plenty of other people that have as well, I have zero respect for employment agencies and view them as parasites, I'm afraid.

Horry- we had the same with SLC. Had to write and say I was financing DW so she wasn't earnings. Bizarre.

this practice is reminiscent of when women had to have a male guarantor for a mortgage

The passport thing isn't manpower being awkward. Employers have to verify that their staff have the right to work here and requesting a passport is very common.
DH moved government depts and in spite of him having worked for one for over 20 years he still had to provide the new one with his passport.

I did have an issue with Manpower over proving I had a right to work in the UK. They wanted to see my passport

Wallison I was responding to this - it sounds like the OP is not a UK citizen so employment law states her passport would have to be seen. I then would take a copy of the HO stamp in her passport. If I don't I could get fined or even get a criminal conviction.

I have heard some horrendous stories about Employment agencies - but like everything in life there are good and bad everywhere. I've never worked for Manpower but have worked for some brilliant agencies where we would start work at 8 am and still be working at 9pm that night. We are not all parasites.

If you are in London call me next time!

this Student Loan practice is also reminiscent of some of the things highlighted on this thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/a1686576-Things-that-make-you-go-shock-even-though-you-knew-them

the male guarantor for woman taking a mortgage, men giving their permission for women to have birth control/hysterectomies etc

Yes, I had the same with student loans. OH had to write a little letter. How demeaning is that?

This happened to DH last year after he was out of work for 4 months. The agency (not Manpower) insisted at the client's behest that DH provide evidence of what he had been doing during that time. This was for a major bank.

He had been SAHDing and job hunting and had to provide DS's birth certificate, child benefit details and evidence a certain number of job applications plus responses from employers. Luckily he was able to do this.

I was taken aback and saw it as quite over zealous for a 4 month gap. What if he had just fancied a break between jobs to do some DIY i can only dream and reading? I think they would have rejected him. Mad.

Jesus, I can't believe the SLC thing. So if you were a single parent living on savings would you send them a little letter saying you were supporting yourself?
As for this employment agency, I cannot believe that birth certs and child benefit statements are not enough proof that you have been a SAHM.
I work for Welsh Gov and we don't have this crap. Ok, proof of being allowed to work in the UK is needed where necessary, but for most of us?
And - not everyone has doctors and police officers as mates to write references. TBH, as a civil servant I am asked to do this all the time, as well as signing passport applications and gun licenses, for random relatives of colleagues who I don't know from Adam. So why are employers trusting these references when they are probably written by a mere acquaintance?
Go back and push them OP. I did like the suggestions upthread about stating the legal and discriminatory position.
I must stop writing, I am so furious on your behalf.

We are not allowed to discriminate so have to ask everyone for the documentation , not just people who we think might be on non British origin.

Send a photo of your baby witg a handprint as a signature and write "my mammy is marvelous, she has worked really hard helping me grow up"

wow! I'd be absolutely raging if anyone asked me for any kind of refernce from my DP - I earn the same as him and consider myself to be financially independent from him - astounded about the stuff on the other thread.

I had this problem with a teaching agency. It was nothing to do with the CRB, it was all down to an accreditation process the agency was going through. They wanted my eldests birth certificate, which I was not willing to provide (not a public body, my dd not their employee so not sure about data protection ). Luckily I received maternity allowance so provided that as proof. Did you receive any maternity pay that you could provide as proof?

I think the SLC thing is fair enough. If you're saying you don't earn enough to pay back the loan then quite reasonably they want to know how you're supporting yourself. If you support yourself then yes you write to them and tell them that and provide some proof. If DH is supporting you (as mine did for a while), they they need proof of that too. Seems reasonable to me!

Have you got a friend with a professional job who knows you were a stay at home mum? I don't think this is that hard. A teacher, solicitor, doctor etc, just get them to write, I have known Myfurby for X years and I am aware that she was not in paid employment from [dates] as she was caring for her children full time. I regularly met her through this period and can confirm the same.

Could attach your children's birth certificates confirmation from the job that you left, e.g. when you handed in your notice at the end of mat leave if that's what you did?

That's a bit harsh fuckwittery. The op here was under the stress of losing a job offer because she doesn't have a passport/couldn't produce it. There are alternatives the agency could have offered.

I had something similar when I started the job I'm currently in. Not through an agency. I had to produce proof of my right to work. We had just moved house and some boxes were still in storage. I couldn't find my passport, butt my work were very understanding and accepted my birth cert, marriage cert and driving licence (for the photo part), so by insisting for a passport from the op I think Manpower are wrong.

As for the reference to cover your time as a SAHM, this is a box ticking exercise by the agency. It will be part of the contract/ accreditation they have with the employer, but it will not be a legal requirement. A letter from the ops friend should suffice, but I would also be questioning the legality.

I agree they were wrong to insist on passport - full birth certificate shows proof of right to work in the UK - although that wasn't the original post. But it IS a bit pathetic to not offer the agency solutions to the request for proof of being a full time mum or to have a grown up discussion as to what would be acceptable - OP should have stood up for herself to the agency. She didn't offer anything, just said she didn't have what they have. There are lots of things she can get to show she was a SAHM - many suggestions have been made on this thread. The agency rep was clearly an automated jobsworth - but crying about it is pathetic, should just get some docs, anything, references from friend, pre-school, note from husband if necessary, signed declaration, confirmation of redundancy, birth certificates showing young children - and escalate a complaint if not accepted.

*have what they want

<makes note to self never to cry on fuckwittery's shoulder>

mirai I strongly disagree. They already have proof you aren't earning - HMRC have told them so. What does it add to have a letter from DH? If they had asked me to sign a declaration conforming that my income was below the threshold that would have been fine: they wouldn't take my word for it though.

" I cannot believe that birth certs and child benefit statements are not enough proof that you have been a SAHM. "

The only thing they prove is that you're a mother, not that you've not been working - I could produce both, but have never been out of paid employement.

Seriously, where did the OP make a suggestion for herself? I can see that the agency sounded inflexible and may have been nasty to her, but I can't see that the OP offered ANYTHING to show she was a SAHM when this clearly would be easy to obtain. I am sympathetic and helpful to posters in need, and made a suggestion to assist this OP but I would be concerned as a recruiter or potential employer if someone made no effort at all to this request. It is obviously unreasonable to insist on items which are irrelevant to being a SAHM, but she should have offered an alternative!

Fuckwittery is being a little harsh, but I do agree that the OP hasn't really helped herself. It sounds as if the agency are pissed off at having to chase her, too. Having said that it's pretty poor that they've not suggested any alternatives themselves.
It's pretty standard to have to provide proof that one is legally allowed to work and employers are accountable if they're found to have taken on those who aren't. Also, in many government roles nationality is restricted - you have to be an EU or even a British citizen even as a temp. The agency have a contract with the Department to assure this, which is legally binding.

When did your security clearance lapse? Do the agency know you were once cleared?

I will withdraw my comment about her being pathetic if she DID offer proof that was rejected and was still told she'd lose the job, obviously that would be v upsetting.

Where were you when compassion for others was handed out?

I think I remember a post on here where someone had been turned down for a job after a career break because they didn't have recent job experience.

Some HR lawyers posted saying that whilst a company could prefer applicants who had recent experience, rejecting those who did not out of hand was indirect sex discrimination because although the requirement was gender neutral in theory, it was not in practice since about 90% of SAHPs are mothers. (And provided some court cases to back it up).

Might be worth looking into ?

If a letter from a friend or husband constitutes better proof of non-prison than a CRB check, then it doesn't leave you with a lot of faith in official procedures, does it?

The irony in my own case is that a teacher fresh out of college would have been seen as a more straightforward recruit than me, with a decade's worth of experience and one year as a SAHM.

That's a good suggestion, Kirsty, although the issue here isn't (so the agency claim) that she doesn't have recent experience, it's that she can't prove she wasn't in the Bangkok Hilton or something.

I do think it's worth contacting the government department directly for advice. It IS possible if you use a little initiative and look at their website. Don't go in with the attitude that all they're interested in is box ticking because that's a crappy one and totally untrue. Go in saying I WANT to work for you but this block is getting in my way, how can we resolve it?

I had an issue like this as I lost my job when I was 7 months pregnant and went back to work when my son was 6 months old. In the end i had to provide a copy of my sons birth certificate as prrof that I had been off on was was like maternity leave.

MyFurby,

I don't believe this is not easily sortable. And they should never have sprung it on you the day before you were due to start work. OTOH, it is not something to cry over, it just needs a little assertiveness on your part.

Firstly, you need to talk to someone sufficiently senior at Manpower and explain what happened. Ask them how they have dealt with returners who have been stay at home parents before and what they have provided. Hopefully, you will find someone helpful. If not, I would definitely mention indirect sexual discrimination (as far far more women are still SAHP these days), mention suing for childcare costs etc and give them a certain period of time to come back to you.

During this period, I would go to an employment lawyer and talk through what has happened. I think they will be quite horrified and be very happy to write Manpower a suitable letter.

larry I'm glad you think its nothing to cry over. For me it was worth crying over. Was due to start work today so have already bought and paid for train ticket, will have to pay nursery, even though they will not be attending as nursery are holding places. My DH has changed his working arrangements (no mean feat) so he can help with drop offs and pick ups.

So I think I am allowed to be a little upset!!

MyFurby,

I guess you can be upset over what you want to. That was not the main thrust of my post. The main thrust was what you could productively do about it (which you seem to have ignored).

I will apologise as I didn't realise they told you the day before you were due to start work and that is out of order given the arrangements you had put in place. However, as larry says, it IS easily sortable with some assertiveness, and I hope you have now spoken to someone senior enough, and provided them with some documents.

OP, what do you want people to do? Virtual hairstroking can only go so far - if you want this job, you need to do something to put this situation right. Posters such as larry and indeed fuckwittery are trying to help you do that by giving constructive advice.

The alternative is to roll over and give up.

If I was expecting an agency worker to turn up today and they didn't, because the agency had left it so late to get some "vital" paperwork I'd be bloody furious. Therefore I stand by my suggestion that you contact the organisation directly.

My god some of you are harsh. She was told at 4.15 YESTERDAY. It's now 1000 the following day, how the heck is OP meant to get all this stuff done in such a short space of time, with young dcs in tow too?

I am sorry this has happened OP, and flabbergasted at the idiocy of what you've been put through. I too would cry if it happened to me ... I can't believe that even though you've been security cleared by the govt department, it's still not good enough for the agency! God help me if this ever happens to me ... I've been a SAHM for the past 12 years more or less! Good luck, myfurby, hope it gets sorted out and you can start work soon x

No-one is disagreeing with you mrssmooth, OP has only just said she was told at 4.15pm yesterday, I criticised her before she explained she'd been asked for this literally hours before she was due to start, I agree that's not on - they should have asked her previously. Also crap of the agency not to tell her what documents are suitable for a stay at home mum to prove this. In the meantime she's had time to overnight get assertive and angry and get documents and be ready to give them hell for indirect sex discrimination towards women if they don't accept - I hope she has sorted it. A rigid policy will affect far more women than men so it is definitely sex discrimination.

well things have gotten worse.

Just had an email from my old boss who sent the agency a glowing reference for me last week. He has been contacted again by the agency (this time by a different person) and asked for another reference. He copied me into the email which he sent to agency saying he has now been asked twice for a reference and he has already provided one.

I'm assuming this means they have contacted other referee as well. I feel awful that my two referees are being hounded like this and worried they will be reluctant to give me a reference in the future for other jobs.

My 'professional' friend emailed agency this morning with a reference. She was told that her 'reference' had to come from her work email address and not her personal email address. She explained she knows me in a personal capacity and not a work capacity.

I am noting all the useful advice on this thread before I phone the agency. I will mention indirect sexual discrimination and so on.

This is all more stressful than it needs to be!

hopefully it will be sorted and you will be n work very soon.
they dont know their a*se from their elbow by the sound of things.

To be honest, it sounds verylike where I work and is standard procedure for many government workplaces - it is an almighty PITA though if you have had a non-standard career.

I think you're likely to get further by complying than fighting it though you could ask if they will accept character references for a longer period instead of professional references for a shorter period - they did this for me eg, because I was self-employed, I provided character references for the past 5 years (from professionla friends from work emails) rather than employer references for 2 years.

I would add that my workplace is scrutinised all the time for who it employs (and we're not anything exciting like MI6!) - it has to at least try to check employees as thoroughly as possible, otherwise it could very easily backfire. Our HR are very very inflexible about this (not saying this is good, just that's the way it is).

Hope it works out for you.

personally i wouldnt go through manpower, look for jobs via the employers themselves ratherthan dodgy agencies.

To be fair on the agency (not that they deserve it) nobody in their right mind would accept a reference from a non-work email address, at least not with other verifiable contact details.

As I said, get in touch with the government department themselves. Do not start talking about discrimination because right now, that is not the issue.

And lord yes, listen to youf and look for a permanant position. They do exist, even now.

They do sound incompetent but I think you are worrying too much with regards to pissing off your referees- I'm sure your referees will understand this is not your fault and a cock up on their part!

With regards to your professional friend, although she is emailing in a personal capacity, can she attach some proof of her profession
e.g. solicitor - extract from the Law Society showing her name
and then enclose some proof of ID to show who she is i.e. confirming she is a trustworthy professional person. Can pre-school etc help you with confirmation?

Your referees will be fine about it- just get them a good bottle of wine as a thank you.

OP you have my sympathy, I will get caught in this sort of hassle when I return to the UK to work.

"To be fair on the agency (not that they deserve it) nobody in their right mind would accept a reference from a non-work email address, at least not with other verifiable contact details."

Not sure about this. I am not working these days but still get asked to give references for some of the people who used to work for me. I have never had my e mail address queried and people are quite happy to accept I am who I say I am. Not for government jobs, though.

In this situation though larry the friend providing the reference was doing so in her capacity as an official professional type who has themselves been vetted in some way, even though it was a personal reference (if that makes sense). Much as when someone countersigns a passport - there needs to be a way of verifying that the countersignatory is indeed a police officer or doctor or whatever (there might not be on the form, but the Passport Agency can and do contact countersignatories for proof that they are indeed a "person of good standing in their community."

I also spot my typo - I should have said at least not without other verifiable contact details

It's all by the by though really - this agency are clearly doing a rubbish job to let it reach the 11th hour before demanding this stuff.

The problem is that some of these procedures are relying on social structures and patterns of work that have changed in the last few decades.

People do have periods of working freelance, self-employed, therefore may well have personal email address as their home email address. More women are returning to work after periods as SAHM, which might have been less of an issue a while back. Many people have professional-level jobs which might not be one of the traditional professions. Church attendance is falling, as far as I know, which means that fewer people can ask their 'minister of religion' for a reference.

As far as I am concerned, this 'code' for recruitment agencies, that was cited in my own case, is stuck in a time warp.

havent been able to read all posters so dont know if this has been suggested, sorry if it has but...
write a reference from your children, as in:

my mums been working 24/7 for the past xxxmonths/years.

shes a hard worker, no holidays, works a 168 hour week, so highly recommend her for a job,...!![grin}

maybe something like that? should show them you also have initiative!!!

"To be fair on the agency (not that they deserve it) nobody in their right mind would accept a reference from a non-work email address, at least not with other verifiable contact details."

Not true. I have given numerous references for people using a personal email address. The people who work for me, do so in my own home (they are helping me with my severely disabled child - which is highly relevant for the jobs they are applying for). Even the NHS (which has the most awful, hideous, corporate type reference procedure) was fine with my personal email address. Only one employer (a special school) has ever phoned to talk with me as well - and in their case they said on the reference documents that they do that in every case.

That's slightly different though. I was talking about references who are there to verify something the applicant is saying and using some form of accredited status to do so.

Otherwise any randomer could email (or indeed the applicant could set up an email account for the purpose) claiming to be a doctor/lawyer/civil servant/teacher (in no particular order ).

op do you have to hold current security clearance for this role?

I unfortunately have had to withdraw job offers that required current security clearance as the candidate could not obtain work references for a period of time aswell, so could not gain clearance from the client. Nothing to do with the candidate being a man or woman, and everything to do with the fact that to obtain security clearance for that particular role they needed to be able to account for periods of employment longer than a month with a work reference.

Id be careful to find out all the facts first before you go talking about discrimination. IME kicking up fusses can give you a bit of a bad rep with agencies and sadly we do have to rely on them sometimes, so best to check you have got all the facts first. Good luck.