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Why is Britain picking a fight with Russia?

(93 Posts)
PartyFops Tue 22-Jul-14 09:27:35

OK, I am not completely up to speed as I try to avoid the miserable news and I know technically we aren't actually picking a fight.

But, it always seems to be Britain that makes a fuss. With this awful plane disaster, most of the victims were from the Netherlands and Asia. Why aren't these countries standing up for themselves?

I just get nervous that we are so small compared to them. Can we really handle this? hmmhmm

The US have been very quiet since it was confirmed that there were no Americans on board.

Please someone explain in Idiots terms? grin

TheThreeCheesesOfTheApocalypse Tue 22-Jul-14 09:31:10

Because what they did must never become the norm.......whoever is on board.

The Netherlands have opened a war crimes investigation.

To remain silent is inexcusable, not that Putin gives a shite.

If only we could arrange for someone to take him out?

itiswhatitiswhatitis Tue 22-Jul-14 09:34:03

British people died too. Children and babies died. I think it's a bit offensive say Britain is making "a fuss" about it fgs a plane was shot out of the sky!

CateBlanket Tue 22-Jul-14 09:35:32

much as I loathe Cameron, he has to make a fuss because British citizens were murdered.

And I think it's because British is one of the five permanent members of the UN Security Council and Netherlands isn't.

CateBlanket Tue 22-Jul-14 09:36:25

*Britain is a permanent member

LeBearPolar Tue 22-Jul-14 09:37:13

Is it time for Martin Niemoller again?

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me.

PartyFops Tue 22-Jul-14 09:37:44

Oh please don't take me the wrong way on this, it's appalling what has happened and I feel sick when I think about the heartbreak the families must be going through. Maybe a badly worded OP.

I am proud that our Country is standing up against this I really am, but I just worry that we are a tiny land compared to many others.

Smilesandpiles Tue 22-Jul-14 09:40:23

Because America wants to and what America wants, it gets.

Other countries involved probably are speaking out, our media will not be covering them, necessarily.

Nancy66 Tue 22-Jul-14 09:46:24

The Uk aren't going to start a war with Russia they just want trade sanctions and I doubt they'll act without the rest of Europe (and America's) backing.

It's the right thing to do. Putin is an evil cunt and has to pay for his actions

Lucked Tue 22-Jul-14 09:52:02

A plane has been shot down in Europe with the help of the Russians EVERYONe should be speaking up.

We are small but pretty mighty, especially within Europe ( okay not as mighty as Russia). We are ranked 5th by military standards. The USA is 1st and I thnk they have been pretty aggressive in their language, they were the first to declare they believed Russian involvement.

The Netherlands are ranked 32nd btw.


MellowAutumn Tue 22-Jul-14 09:52:05

Errrh lots of countries are making a fuss/ picking a fight as you put it with Russia but as you live in the UK you are hearing about it through our media hence the Emphasis on our governments reaction. Do you think Malaysia and the rest of the far east east and Australia are just going oh well there you go- that was a bit of bad luck ?

Rhine Tue 22-Jul-14 09:54:16

It's not just Britain "picking a fight" with Russia, I've heard some very strong words from the Aussie and Dutch PM's as well as the Ukraninan president. If you actually bothered to watch the news or read a news paper you'd be aware of that.

Numanoid Tue 22-Jul-14 09:56:27

LeBear I love that poem, it's very true with a lot of things happening in the world at the moment.

Cameron (massive twunt that he is) should be condemning Russia as no matter who was on board, a civilian plane was shot out the sky. Why wouldn't anyone voice their concern over that? Every country should be shaming Putin into punishing those responsible.

PseudoBadger Tue 22-Jul-14 10:01:10

Asia's not a country.

AuntieStella Tue 22-Jul-14 10:09:15

Even though it took 3 days, someone has leaned on the separatists to move the bodies, to hand over the black boxes and to declare a ceasefire for a few miles around the site. If, as suggested, Putin is the only person who pressured the separatists to change their actions, then he is also the solution (not just the problem). And as it's all done behind closed doors, we do not know if the Russians were lackadaisical or if they were dealing as fast as anyone could with a bunch of renegades.

What Russia is saying in the UN today ups the information war significantly through. They are pointing at inconsistencies in material released by the Kiev government.

Belloc Tue 22-Jul-14 10:10:00

Russia is a disgusting country that oppresses its people. It is a harsh authoritarian regime which represses people's civil rights. It lies to its citizens and uses propaganda to wilfully misinform them. The gap between rich and poor Russians grows ever larger and corruption is rife. It is an autocracy. Putin is one of the richest men in the world in spite of having spent his life in the KGB and politics (he was previously Yeltsin's secret police chief). His presidential salary is less than $200,000 yet he, his family and friends are worth many many billions.

Simply, Russia is not a democracy. OSCE observers did not find Russian elections free or fair.

Rhine Tue 22-Jul-14 10:12:07

It never fails to shock me how some people seem to revel in their ignorance. Aside from the fact the OP was horribly insensitive in the first place especially with it's silly grinning smilies, did you forget about the ten British victims and their loved ones OP? The loved ones who've had to watch their relatives bodies being tossed onto the back of a train like a piece of old furniture.

Dead god, I can't believe you even thought it was acceptable to make light of something like this!

LeBearPolar Tue 22-Jul-14 10:18:58

"I try to avoid the miserable news" - why? So that you can pretend that it's not happening because you're all right?

BookABooSue Tue 22-Jul-14 10:21:55

Rhine the Dutch and international experts at the site have said the bodies were tagged and stored appropriately. It's incredibly offensive to the families to discuss the treatment of the bodies in the way you did.

As for the question of the OP, Britain is not picking a fight with Russia. It's considering imposing tougher sanctions. The US had imposed tougher sanctions before the plane came down and had been asking Europe to do so too. Europe is now considering it in light of recent events. However it does appear that Britain is being more vocal than some other parts of Europe which also lost people in the crash. I'd guess that is because we have a closer relationship with the US.

Not to keep repeating myself but the investigation hasn't taken place yet. We don't know that Russia is responsible. We do know that the Ukraine, Russia and the US are not unbiased in their reporting of events and each have a political agenda that preceded this tragedy. There is a long thread in chat about this already.

GhoulWithADragonTattoo Tue 22-Jul-14 10:23:36

It's very much fair to say it's Russia who's picking a fight. They are the ones who've entered a sovereign nation (Ukraine) by force, held a Mickey Mouse election and now given a powerful ground to air missile to a rag tag bunch of rebels. Said weapon has blown up a civilian aircraft killing the innocent people including children on board.

Netherlands, as stated, are seeking a war crimes prosecution so are taking this as seriously as can be. No one wants WW3 but the UK reaction is appropriate at the moment.

RedToothBrush Tue 22-Jul-14 10:25:43

I am proud that our Country is standing up against this I really am, but I just worry that we are a tiny land compared to many others.

Would you like a history lesson as to how a tiny island managed to rule half the world? Our physical size doesn't mean too much. What matters is our ability to influence and shape international politics.

No we do not have the same amount of power as our nation once did, but we do have substantial influence. We also have significant financial clout. We have responsibility as one of the 5 permanent members of the the UN security council. We have a duty of responsibility to our fellow NATO members (which include the Netherlands) and to our fellow EU members. We were key players in the writing the rules on war crimes and international law and are looked to uphold and enforce those standards as a result. We have one of the larger military forces in the world that far outstrips our physical size.

It is not in our interests to ignore events which might be a threat to the EU as a whole because of our diplomatic ties and as the history of Europe has proved, we can not just ignore events even if we try to, as they tend to bite us on the bum eventually. The legacy of WWII means that we are often looked to, to lead things like this, as we have experience and respect in handling sticky diplomatic situations. Not to mention that the Dutch simply do not have the same standing, (their military suffering considerable political damage to reputation following their actions in Bosnia) and Malaysia are geographically, politically and economically distant from Russia.

In terms of the US being quiet, well they have extended sanctions, and to be blunt about it, they have to let Europe lead the way as its an issue that has far wider implications for us, as we are more closely bound to Russia through trade links. Germany in particular relies on Russia for its fuel needs.

'Picking a fight' is totally the wrong word. Picking a fight suggests we are actively looking for conflict and this is unprovoked. We are NOT looking for a fight, we are trying to establish what happened, ensure that those responsible are brought to justice and that those who supported those responsible are held accountable and take that responsibility.

With respect, under international law, a civilian plane was shot down without any provocation whatsoever, an act which in times gone by, this may have been regarded as an act of war. We are not pursuing that line, and are trying to solve diplomatically.

As for being the only ones putting pressure on Russia. What do you think we report in the press? Do you think that our media is a bit, erm... biased... and what other countries might be doing is very often ignored and not deemed as newsworthy. In part because we are self obsessed as a nation and also in part because we aren't bloody interested in what anyone else says as we don't like to see ourselves as part of Europe.

RedToothBrush Tue 22-Jul-14 10:29:10

"I try to avoid the miserable news"

As for this... that would be why you need it explained in idiot terms, because frankly burying your head in the sand over bad news, does make you an idiot - whether it be personal, local or international news.

It has a tendency to breed ignorance and stupidity... surefire ways to increase "miserable news".

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