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Knowledgable/aware people, explain for us please

(60 Posts)
momb Sat 10-May-14 23:55:13

Off the back of Eurovision, and the subsequent discussion between DP and our teenagers. We all agree on a definition for heterosexuality and homosexuality: it's all about who you are attracted to and who you love. We thought that we agreed on a definition or at least an understanding of transexuality and transvesticism: one being who you are and one being how you like to dress. So, the winner of Eurovision: described by the commentator as 'she'. Dresses as a woman, clearly self identifying as a man (beard and singing style). DP and teenage DD disagreeing, stuck in the middle (ignorant of the appropriate thing to say and therefore saying nothing). Please explain to me so I can calm waters here. I'm of the 'people are people' stance but I suspect at this point more factual/evidence based approach needed. Thanks in advance.

momb Sun 11-May-14 00:10:12

Bumping because knowledge is power. Thanks

CorusKate Sun 11-May-14 00:11:42

I think male drag performers take on a persona, who is female, and referred to as "she", but the performer is referred to as "he". Any help?

ThornOfCamorr Sun 11-May-14 00:13:29

I am by no means an expert on this type of thing but- DD1 is classed as gay and yet very against labelling she also runs a monthly meet and chat for LGBT people. From her point of view for a man when dressed as a woman to be called 'she' is appropriate if he so wishes. As this person also has a beard it really shouldn't matter whether they are male or female with a beard the point is it is all about being free to choose to be who you want to be without fear.

CorusKate Sun 11-May-14 00:13:35

Like, "Dave's a drag artist. He puts on a dress and makes himself up, and becomes Louise. She's a tall blonde who likes to sing show numbers."

CorusKate Sun 11-May-14 00:15:55

But obviously, as Thorn has mentioned, the individual's preferences take precedence. But as a starting point, I wouldn't assume that (biologically male performing as female) drag performers identify as female in their general lives, but would refer to their stage persona as a she.

ThornOfCamorr Sun 11-May-14 00:16:23

Does that make any sense at all?? Have had quite a lot of prosecco whilst watching Eurovision grin

LadySybilLikesCake Sun 11-May-14 00:20:06

As far as wiki I'm aware, she preferred to be called 'she', so was referred to as this. People who are undergoing a sex change have to spend a period of time living like a woman/man, so wear a dress/wig/bra etc before they can have surgery. I think the beard is irrelevant, a lot of women have natural facial hair, especially on the upper lip wink

GoshAnneGorilla Sun 11-May-14 00:21:36

I have read that Conchita identifies as gender neutral, but prefers female pronouns.

CorusKate Sun 11-May-14 00:22:11

Graham Norton, I noticed, initially seemed to be using "he" but switched to "she" at some point. Or perhaps I wasn't paying attention properly.

ThornOfCamorr Sun 11-May-14 00:22:22

But we are all pressured to bleach,shave,pluck it all off!

momb Sun 11-May-14 00:24:07

I'm also full of wine smile
DP and DDs have stropped off to bed. So (so I have something to whip them all with tomorrow) I think that what you are both saying is that the winner from Austria is a drag act (and therefore she while performing)...but has a beard and therefore not a particularly convincing drag act (albeit good pop performer).
I NEVER worried about this stuff before having kids!

LadySybilLikesCake Sun 11-May-14 00:24:30

Maybe she decided to ignore the pressure? Who knows.

ThornOfCamorr Sun 11-May-14 00:24:59

Gender neutral- that's the phrase DD1 uses often, not always for herself but wishes everything wasn't so gender defined.

CorusKate Sun 11-May-14 00:25:00

There was a Sikh woman in the news a couple of years ago who was ridiculed on the internet for her facial hair (her Sikhism is relevant, as she believed that she shouldn't remove the hair just as Sikh men generally don't cut their hair) - I remember her response as being particularly gracious. I'll see if I can find a link.

ThornOfCamorr Sun 11-May-14 00:25:57

My dd has taught me a LOT about this kind of discussion and I thank her for it!!

CorusKate Sun 11-May-14 00:27:00

I was under the impression that the Eurovision winner was a drag act, rather than a trans woman - if she identifies as gender neutral in her general life, then I guess I would still say that's the case.

turgiday Sun 11-May-14 00:28:09

Surely Conchita is a non conforming man. So wears dresses, but is clearly a man.

momb Sun 11-May-14 00:28:09

Ladysybil. I think the beard has to be significant, particularly if one is intending to be identified as one or another gender. The gender neutral thing makes sense to me, but only in a non-performing role, unless one is trying to push the issue of stereotyping/discussion, in which case one has to question the choice of Eurovision for a platform.....and yet here I am.

CorusKate Sun 11-May-14 00:29:09

Here's a storify account of Balpreet Kaur's reaction to being mocked online for her facial hair.

LadySybilLikesCake Sun 11-May-14 00:31:11

I get you. She's choosing to be neither one, nor the other, so is keeping her beard to signify this? Who knows. I'm off to bed smile

grocklebox Sun 11-May-14 00:32:33

I think choosing to be known as Conchita rather than Tom gives a rather large clue that she is the corrct pronoun.
I dont know how you confidently assert she is self udentifying as a man, doesnt the name, hair, dress, make up, shoes, answering to she and her all suggest you have jumped to a conclusion because of the beard?

LadySybilLikesCake Sun 11-May-14 00:33:23

Poor woman, Corus. That was unfair. I've known a few which have had facial hair (not a few dark strands above the top lip). You'd imagine that it wouldn't be a problem for others sad

I think it's seen as overly right-on these days, but people used to use 'zhe' and 'hir' as pronouns for people who didn't like to specify.

ThornOfCamorr Sun 11-May-14 00:35:13

Yes exactly,many people who dress as the opposite sex are not necessarily trans. My DD was very different to many of the girls I knew, she chose to dress more like a 'boy' and never liked boys (in that way) later on grin but she is most definitely a woman who chooses a more androgynous style and nickname and feels comfortable within her body.

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