Mumsnet Talk

I didn't used to have a problem with the apostrophe, or most grammar. But I find that I am being led astray by the poor grammar and spelling online. I now struggle with the apostrophe, finding myself placing it incorrectly. I can only attribute this to constant exposure to incorrect usage on the internet.

When I was growing up, we were taught to put apostrophes after things like CV's & HGV's and decades (1980's) - so to me, not to have them there seems very wrong. CVs HGVs 1980s - they all look naked!

I agree that do's and don'ts looks much better than dos and don'ts...

Sue - I proof copy but far too much time spent online (reading, chatting & writing as casually as we speak) & ignoring mistakes has eroded my sharp edge and these days I really have to concentrate otherwise I miss a lot , whereas I never would have in the past! I don't do it often now as it's too stressful.

I'm OK when I'm hand writing but I'll often make 'mistakes' when posting on MN etc and do silly things like type are/our - there's a term for it, but I can't think what it's called.

myheadwasinthesandnownot Whoever taught you that was simply wrong.

I was in Waterstone's today with dd and noticed a typed sign adveritsing books about 'science fiction saga's ' - argh!!! When I bought our books I had to tell the cashier... but then I am an editor and anal about these things

I think with things like cvs/cv's or 1980s/1980's there are no real rules - it certainly doesn't really alter the meaning of things in the same way as the possessive use of the apostrophe might do.

So we can agree to disagree on the use of apostrophes for situations like this, I think.

If you were to Google apostrophe usage, as I have done, you will find totally contradictory advice. So no-one is right or wrong.

Thanks BIWI I'll stick to my non-naked 's.

I believe the correct use of the apostrophe to be important and hope that I always get it right. "Eats, Shoots & Leaves: The Zero Tolerance Approach to Punctuation" is a non-fiction book written by Lynne Truss. It is an excellent book containing an entire chapter on the use of the apostrophe.

BIWI I think the difference is US English v UK English and because of the prevalence of US English, it has become accepted.

My opinion (not that that is worth any more than anyone else's, even if I'd like it to ) is if you follow the rule, surely it's easier to understand it if there are as few exceptions as possible so just make the plural as you would make any other plural. When you start sticking them in when they're not necessary, it creates ambiguity and people start getting confused.

Why does anyone think the rules for using apostrophes are so hard? There are only about three rules - learn those, and you can't go wrong.

I can see why the plural of CV is difficult because CV is not a word, it's an acronym - and it's Latin.

So what is the plural of curriculum vitae - because it looks like a plural already to me (remembers school Latin where puella means girl and puellae means girls).

And panini is also already plural.

Curriculum is singular and vitae means of life (so genitive singular). It is true the genitive singular ending is the same as the nominative plural in this case. The plural would be curricula and vitae would be unchanged so curricula vitae (courses of life)

don't think I have ever seen CVs, DVDs,1950s etc written with an apostrophe before the s. Maybe I just haven't picked up on it. What is the apostrophe supposed to indicate in that case?

To be accurate <editor's hat on> - you need to consult an editor's style guide like the Chicago Manual of Style or Judith Butcher's Copy-editing, or The Oxford Guide to Style - they will tell you definitively when and how to use apostrophes.

US English does not use apostrophes in 1980's etc either, BTW.

CV or any other acronym shouldn't be hard to make into a plural. We use acronyms in the same way we use a word in its own right. Nobody generally says curriculum vitae or compact disc or general certificate of education. In fact, according to Wikipedia (so it must be true) DVD doesn't officially stand for anything (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD) so there are no letters missing, therefore no requirement for an apostrophe.

There's no ambiguity when writing CVs or DVDs so what would be the argument for using one?

I always thought DVD stood for digital video disk.

Digital Versatile Disc

I had to put my hands in my pockets to stop myself rubbing out a grocer's apostrophe on an A-board outside DS's preschool last week.

I thought the argument for putting an apostrophe in CVs was that, in closed punctuation, where you would have written C.V., you would replace the . with a ' when it's a plural? Nobody writes C.V. any more so yes it's wrong but isn't it just that it's out of use nowadays, rather than grammatically incorrect?

I don't think my school was particularly hot on grammar and punctuation. I did get Grade A 'O' Level English Language but I remember learning for the first time that there's no ' in its when I started at FE college.

Hmm. Evidently, grammar isn't everything, which is why I, with relatively acceptable grasp of English grammar, am unemployed, yet other people are employer, despite a poorer grasp of English grammar.

*employed.

See! There's an example. I can't type. What's the good of grammar, if you can't type!

didn't quite follow that Quenelle. Were you taught to write one C.V. and two C.V's.

On any thread about grammar , Jessie, the rule is to make at least one whopping big grammar mistake.

Actually I think it is time for the definitive MN grammar book. Who wants to compile it? THey'd make great gifts for the teacher at the end of the year.

I love that someone (I forget who) tried to sneak in an "amount of mistakes" while everyone was distracted by apostrophes!

I can't remember where I picked it up Zzzen. Probably secretarial college because that's where I learned about open and closed punctuation. It was the mid-80s so many of the more archaic practices were still in use. I always used open punctuation so not sure exactly how it's used. Is it wrong then? Has it always been?

Evidently, grammar isn't everything, which is why I, with relatively acceptable grasp of English grammar, am unemployed, yet other people are employer, despite a poorer grasp of English grammar.

bigjessie yes. There aren't enough jobs to go round.

Those that are go to people with more relevant skills or better contacts.

It's ridiculous to say that because someone knows how to punctuate they'd be really good at, for example, selling stuff.