Mumsnet Talk

I was very badly affected by my mum leaving when I was 12. And over the years from 12-32 I let her go on hurting, abandoning, not caring.

The last thing she ever said to me was "well I hope [dd1] doesn't do to you what you've done to me" (it was always about her).

I won't, because I've chosen not to run out on my 3 dc with my fathers best friend. And then belittle, ignore and avoid my children for 20 years.

When I was just 33 I decided not to contact her again and I've had 9+ years free of her venom and disinterest (apart from when she totally blanked me at my beloved Gran's funeral).

I'll screw up my kids, I'm sure. But I'm also pretty sure (as long as I'm ok, and keep my issues managed - I see a psychologist regularly and it's 30 years this week since she left! - then they'll probably be a little screwed up, from my years of pnd and dh's trouble with depression too.

But I'll never do to my dc what was done to me.

(and if you're reading, birth-mother, as I'm sure you often are, well, then listen to what I said just now!)

Humans have issues.

Varying degrees but it is just part of being a sentient creature I would think.

If you can think 'Why?', then you are pretty fucked.

This is why it is better to be a cat.

As an adult, you need to deal with any issues you may have.

Your reaction to your upbringing is about you and no-one else, it's how you deal with.

As said above, I couldn't stand my dps' when I was a teen, my Dad passed away just as I started thinking he had a great sense of humour and we loved each others' company, it was horrendous. (I was 26). My dm died 8 years ago.

There's nothing more that I would love is for them both to be sitting in my house. I'm sure they'd feel the same.

All our experiences and personalities are different. I know they loved me, I couldn't stand them and probably made it difficult......

There's many books written about it, but I stand my ground and say, even if you haven't dealt with it, that's you're problem as an adult. And no you don't automatically pass it on to your dc's when you have dealt with any issues you may have.

I had many issues to deal with, there was 10 of us. I have to say that to my knowledge and trust none of us were ever abused, emotionally or sexually, and for that I thank my lucky stars or in fact God (not bothered which God).

For those that have suffered those issues, that's something that breaks my heart.

whatever "issued" I unwittingly pass onto my children, the only thing I can do is respond to them when older and validate them and explain them and maybe apologise for them.
In my mind the absolute worse thing you can do is ignore them, undermine how they feel and take it personally.

Yes, but it would be good to win the lottery, never suffer illness, have a dream career and achieve all your heart's desires too.

That may sound facetious, but it's not really.

I spent years thinking the answer to my feelings in the present lay in a "proper" analysis of the past. If I looked at it enough, I would find some sort of magic answer for my feelings that would somehow unlock them. This was a very strong trend in popular culture for a bit, after all. The Oprah culture, or what I think of as a "Good Will Hunting" moment, where you have a "breakthrough" where you sob your little inner child's heart out and everything is suddenly hunky dory.

Unfortunately, my experience (and many people's experience from what I can gather), is the more time you spend reviewing your past and categorising it as dysfunctional the worse you will feel and the more dysfunctionally you may find yourself behaving.

I would say that everyone comes to a stage in their life when they review their past and their relationship with their parents, and this is normal and healthy. I think it often isn't as helpful as you might imagine for people to spend a lot of time evaluating/analysing/categorising their past as being "dysfunctional" because what's important is twhat you do now, not why you do it. You can have compassion for your current issues/hurts/challenges without needing to find some reason for it in the past (even if there are very obvious past challenges and, say, you have nightmares or flashes of the terrible things that have happened to you). More time is spent worrying about What It Means to have had a certain past sometimes than actually getting on with the business of living in the here and now.

There's a great book on this called Get Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life.

I suppose it comes down to this, in the Mindfulness based stuff there's a quick saying, "as long as you're still breathing, there's more right with you than wrong with you". Now, doesn't that give a bit more hope than anything suggesting you are defined by ways you were brought up maybe 20, 30, 40 years ago?

No you are not broken. But it would have been good not to have wasted years of your precious life suffering from depression and seeing therapists, wouldn't it?

I know that is stating the obvious!

I think for those of us who just starting to realise that perhaps they need help or recognising their childhood was dysfunctional, then the original poster's question is a valid concern,.

"Yes, this is what we should strive to do and this is what helps break the cycle, however it's not easy. It's very very hard to unlearn years and years of pain, maladaptive behaviours, dysfunctional coping mechanisms, depression and so on. This is the legacy of abusive parents. "

In the third wave of cognitive behaviour therapy, they would argue that actually you can't unlearn how to feel what you feel, stop or prevent painful memories etc.. but you CAN change your behaviour and actually change that relatively quickly.

I have had recurrent depression since my teenage years and have had bouts of counselling over the years, I was trying to count how many therapists I've had recently and there have beentwelve too many! That's before I count the three years I spent going to Al-Anon or the many self-help books I dipped into over the years. That is a lot of hours! Sadly a lot of that therapy wasn't particularly helpful though it sort of got me through like a crutch at the time. In a lot of instances, sadly, I think the constant going back over the past just made it very fresh and accessible even as the years passed.

This year has been a huge watershed for me. I have had therapy that hasn't focused on the past or on labelling my current feelings/thoughts/behaviours as "maladaptive" and I feel completely different to how I have felt at any other time in the past.

I don't think the bad memories or some of the hurt will ever go, it just doesn't feel like the huge shameful barrier it always has. I have stopped viewing my story as being Who I Am and Will Be Forever More. I have also learned that the opposite of shit is not perfect, that the fact I am still terrified of driving because of all the times I was nearly killed in drunken car rides isn't a sign that I will be trapped in a dead end job forever and many other things I felt trapped by have just lost their overwhelmingless. There is room now to move forward, though it won't happen overnight.

Mainly though, I have realised that this is life. All of it. I am not broken, nor was I ever. This is not a rehearsal. You don't have to wait for the pain to go to live right now.

This is timely, I've been having a similar discussion this week with my dh. My own upbringing has rendered me very insecure, with very low self-esteem and very little confidence in myself physically and emotionally. Dh is totally opposite to me in that he had to fend for himself from a young age, and is strong, confident and a fighter - he's the optimist to my pessimist.

We have four dc, ranging in age between 19 and 8, and like every other parent in the world, we worry constantly over their futures, and wonder whether we are doing the right thing by them. Just now, all four of them seem to be having various issues which are troubling us so dh and I have been wondering if we could have done some things differently.

All I can say is that we honestly and sincerely believe that we are doing the right thing. None of it has been, or will be easy, but I don't think we have anything we can reproach ourselves with to date. We have always put our dc before ourselves, made ourselves totally available to them, shown them unconditional love, treated them like real people. Neither my parents, nor dh's, parented like this. As far as we know, our dc trust us and are totally open with us - but I do stress the "as far as we know" part of this sentence. We trust them too - and will continue to do so until they give us reason not to.

We're not perfect by a very long shot, and if the dc were able to contribute to this thread they may have a totally different view of their upbringing, but I really hope they wouldn't. We've made loads of mistakes but have acknowledged them and tried not to repeat them And none of this guarantees that they won't go on to have troubles and issues all of their own.

I am realising more and more as I get older that I do have issues from my childhood and I think I am seeing them more clearly as time goes by.

Before my father died he realised some of this himself, we talked about it and I realise none of this was intentional or even noticed at the time, we all only see it with hindsight. I'm not sure if my Mum realises or not but she is elderly now and it would upset her so I think it is best to let sleeping dogs lie.

I think the best we can hope for is that our children grow up to love us and to know that we did the very best we could.

Only now in my 30s am I realising just HOW fucked up those coping mechanisms have made me. Things that "worked" for survival in childhood really do affect everything as an adult. I'm over the "obvious" problems and working quite hard to function as a relatively normal adult but its only now I'm looking into it more I see how it pervades so many levels of being.

I'm on a waiting list for some counselling, read parenting books by the bucket load and really hope not to pass on too much of my issues.

Ok. I agree with your last post.

No matter how traumatised you are, you have to find a way to behave in an acceptable way to others and to yourself e.g. to commit to living the life a value even if you are afraid, lonely or experiencing anger, pain, grief, illness etc.

Yes, this is what we should strive to do and this is what helps break the cycle, however it's not easy. It's very very hard to unlearn years and years of pain, maladaptive behaviours, dysfunctional coping mechanisms, depression and so on. This is the legacy of abusive parents.

Power! Not powder! [Grin]

I don't think what you are saying is different to what I am saying really Thingiebob.. I am not suggesting abusive parents should feel they are not accountable for their actions in the here and now. I am saying that once you are an adult, looking to blame your parents and how they moulded your past for your current actions and behaviour or even your current thoughts and emotions is futile, sustains your pain and ultimately reduces the chance that you will be sufficiently aware of your own actions and behaviours and whether you are passing on any unhelpful psychological debris to your own children.

It is a truism but we truly only have powder in the present moment. The past is gone, it only has the power we afford it in the present. It isn't that easy to let go of without looking unblinking at the pain and rising above it but blaming another person for your current behaviour is a very odd thing that these days many people seem to feel is reasonable in some way if they experienced severe hurt. Your behaviour as an adult is ALWAYS your own responsibility, whether you are victim or perpetrator (obviously not counting extreme life or death situations but general everyday life). No matter how traumatised you are, you have to find a way to behave in an acceptable way to others and to yourself e.g. to commit to living the life a value even if you are afraid, lonely or experiencing anger, pain, grief, illness etc.

Otherwise there is no hope for anyone and I think people can become trapped in and defined by their past negative experiences in ways that make their lives unworkable.

No of course you don't have 'ultimate control' over how your children's lives turn out as there are so many other variables involved.

As parents though, you need to take responsibility and 'blame', yes 'blame' for your children being psychologically damaged due to your actions. We are a product of our experiences and environment.

Severe trauma and abuse requires a huge amount of work to get over or at least to manage the impact it has on an individuals life, but it can be done. And should be worked at to avoid visiting similar issues on your own children.

I think if you work hard not to repeat the same patterns, you are already on the road to giving your own children a much happier and functional childhood.

I agree that parents have an impact, however it is still in the majority of adults' power to change their actions and work to minimise their issues. Yes some have a much tougher starting point than others which is the fault of their parents.

How else can cycles of abuse and alcoholism be broken? Or at the utter extreme, why not lock away those who have had bad childhoods and are starting down a criminal path and throw away the key because they can never change their own behaviours?

And if people with truly awful backgrounds have a chance, surely those who have had a "slightly dysfunctional" childhood can get past that and live fulfilling adult lives.

Comingintomytown, yes I obviously also did the work to get here. Not everyone will need to do that depending on circumstance but anger and recrimination don't tend to make anyone happier in the long term. The important thing is to do your best to break the cycle but accept you don't have ultimate control for how your kids will turn out.

You do realise by believing your parents are responsible for your behaviour as an adult that they retain power over you forever? And in families like mine, where severe alcoholism stretches back for generations, whose responsibility is it ultimately? I take responsibility for myself and in so doing, I have the opportunity to break the cycle. If I blame my parents, I am a victim and powerless.

I don't think there is much research that proves 'the parents are to blame' as that doesn't sound very scientific!

Totally agreed Thingiebob. To suggest parents aren't responsible for how their children are as adults is rather contrary to basically every piece of research published.

Your parents, no matter how shit they may have been, aren't the ones stopping you from achieving what you want as an adult no more than what you do now can be responsible for what your children do or do not feel thirty years from now.

I disagree. It is far more complicated than that. I know people who bear the scars of severe sexual and physical abuse from their parents which has damaged them psychologically and affected their happiness and success throughout their lives. To suggest their parents are not responsible for their children's trauma later in life is frankly odd!

I agree working , I arrived at the realisation very late in life that my DM had had a negative effect on me but rather than then use that as my get out clause I then underwent quite heavy psychotherapy to overcome it.

It was a big thing and cost a small fortune but as they say what price happiness and boy am I happier.

I am hoping that the whole experience will help me in not passing on stuff to my DC but who knows and there isnt really a yardstick for this kind of thing

Thingiebob, re: "repeated postings of Larkin's poem and assertions that we will all in some way give our children issues are NOT helpful and do little to reassure posters who clearly are deeply worried by their experiences. "

There is no reassurance though in parenting, is there? You can give a very bog standard "normal" childhood and shit will still happen (to put it mildly). I think it's unfortunate that the last few generations have been focused on blaming parents for issues in the next generation; it does seem to me to be about a reluctance to grow up (and I've been there, I don't say that in a blaming way)... you can learn certain behaviours which may or may not be helpful but as an adult, you have responsibility for your own reactions to events and behaviours and continuing to feel anger with your parents to me suggests that it would be useful to step back and do some work on accepting that you have no control over the past or the future but only the life you live now. You can always choose to behave differently though it may take serious hard work to achieve it.

Your parents, no matter how shit they may have been, aren't the ones stopping you from achieving what you want as an adult no more than what you do now can be responsible for what your children do or do not feel thirty years from now.

Ooh.. have just read the second page and it got a bit mean! My father was/is a chronic and abusive alcoholic and my mother lost her way hugely in my teenage years and had mental health issues... but neither of them chose that either... I don't think they did anything other than their best and it is a tragedy for my father that his wasn't good enough.. he has missed out on so much and a relationship with his grandkids but I don't bear him any ill will for it, he came from even worse (sexual and physical abuse daily in the home).

Ever heard of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy? It deals with a lot of this stuff coming from the pov that life just involves suffering no matter how you do it. Everyone will lose someone they love, suffer fear, torment, love, greed etc. It's just the nature of being human!

I think no... because everyone has emotional issues of one sort or another, just of varying degrees.

Find me someone who is always, always happy; never low; never feels too fat, too thin too ugly top pretty, angry, lonely or incompetent; who is always calm in a crisis, who appreciates every moment and never feels the world is out to get them (even momentarily) and I will find you... a liar.

I think the issue is people assuming their parents passed on faults when really they just passed on being human.

Just because you werent beaten or starved as a child doesnt mean there werent things that happened or in my case didnt happen that can affect you profoundly into adulthood. Its not a question of apportioning blame or absolving yourself of responsibility for your own shortcomings but understanding a bit why you are the way you are. For me that has helped with my issues.

My Mother will always say how she did her best (referring to DBs failings) but actually I dont think she did at all. Mostly she did what she wanted and what she was prepared to do which wasnt a great deal. Listening to her talk now about our home life 30 plus years ago annoys me because it just isnt how it was but I wouldnt ever call her on it

In terms of passing these things onto your own DC , well for me the sorts of things I do that I never had is praise them, cuddle them tell them I love them and take a detailed interest in the minutiae of their lives.

As someone said upthread it isnt until you have your own DC that it starts to sink in how your childhood was.

As someone also said earlier life often gets in the way too and xh leaving is bound to have left its mark on them but was something out of my control.

I too find that in fact being a parent myself has brought home to me just how appallingly crap at it my parents - who would say they loved me intensely and go on about how proud of me they are - actually were.

I am not, I think, some kind of obsessed saddo as the poster above implied. I am a bright, fairly successful adult with lots of friends. But I am very angry with my parents and don't see them if I can help it.