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Oh yes, I should say that there are Methodists around the world - e.g. the Caribbean, US, Africa, Asia and so on. In the US and the Caribbean, Methodism was very much linked with the anti-slavery movement, in line with the traditional commitment to social justice and action.

ah, well, that makes sense - i think they're books or chapters that were "editted" out
so, they weren't necessary or agreed at the time.
so hidden away makes sense - they ended up on the cutting room floor.

so the apocrypha is like the director's cut

Oh, I like that idea.

It's not coincidental half of them are about Jesus's infancy, is it? I've got a wonderful image of 'I said no, dad, it's embarrassing!'.

Ahem.

Blasphemy over. Honest.

Waiting eagerly to hear about Baptists as well as Methodists.

Thanks for asking that question saltire I always wondered who Methodists were as well. I really like their history grendels what does it mean to be a methodist in the 21st century? what about baptists what's their history? Glad someone explained episcopalians earlier too

(to lrd not grendel/saltire/crescentmoon)

No prodestant churches have saint names in scotland only the episcapalian (sp) churches which is like the church of england faith but only in scotland

CrescentMoon - I'd say being a Methodist is really all about taking action to live life as God wants you to, whatever that turns out to be. There's part of a prayer adapted from John Wesley that sums this up nicely:

"Christ has many services to be done. Some are easy, others are difficult. Some bring honour, others bring reproach. Some are suitable to our natural inclinations and temporal interests, others are contrary to both... Yet the power to do all these things is given to us in Christ, who strengthens us."

Methodists often have a special service at the start of the new year, when they echo John Wesley's prayers to do God's work, a bit like an new year's resolution.

Probably others would have a different take on this, but this is an attempt!

LRD - sorry, snorking away at the "I said no, dad," idea.

Sorry - here's the OP being so polite and I ruin it!

Fascinating about Methodism, though. I like the sound of it from what you say.

No it's not stupid. Methodism is a Protestant denomination that started as an off branch of the CofE in the 18th century. An Anglican priest, John Wesley, who became frustrated with what he saw as the corruption and apathy of the CofE of the time, started a religious revival movement outside the CofE known as Methodism. He and a group of friends preached fiery sermons all over the place, often in the open air, and established Methodist Societies all over the country. These eventually became a separate denomination, although Wesley hadn't really intended to create a new denom. This is a very potted history - Methodism has had many schisms and different incarnations, but generally when someone says 'Methodism' they mean the branch that descends from John Wesley.

Methodism in general places strong emphasis on Bible study, lay preachers (non-ordained preachers), low forms of worship (i.e. no bells, smells, or blingy tat in churches), lack of hierarchy (they have no bishops but they do have a central governing organisation), salvation through faith not through good deeds, and enthusiastic congregational singing (the Wesleys wrote stackloads of well-known hymns). They have women ministers and only two sacraments (baptism and communion), and take scripture, reason and tradition as a guide for deciding doctrinal issues (as do the CofE). They are quite close to the CofE now after a period of estrangement and are in communion with them (i.e. Anglicans and Methodists can receive the bread and wine in each others' churches).

Baptists: they split off from the CofE a lot earlier - they have their roots in the Puritanism which developed in the wake of the CofE's split from Rome. But again they have had many splits, and some branches of Baptism are very distinctively different from others, especially in the US.

Main distinguishing features of Baptists: belief in believer's baptism (i.e. they will only baptise people who are old enough to profess belief, so no baptising babies), full immersion baptism, scripture alone as a guide for deciding doctrine, salvation through faith, not acts, no hierarchy, belief in the literal Second Coming of Christ is very common in US Baptists.

CofE coming up ...

Good luck doing C of E in a non-mammoth post!

This is fascinating about Baptism and Methodism.

Okay, right, here's a go at Baptists, but it's largely inspired by Wikipedia plus a recent theology class.

Baptists in the UK are a much older group than the Methodists, as they date back to the early 17th century, the massive rise in popular theology in the UK, the increase in reading the Bible and in coming up with your own interpretations, more or less justified (to some extent these early Baptists seem to match with the Diggers and the Levellers and all those other interesting 17th century groups). Of course, the English Civil Wars then come along, religious difference turns into outright war, and the stage is set for a great deal of fear, conspiracy and ultimately persecution on all sides. Also the banning of mince pies.

Baptists believe that only adults can be baptised and thus become full members of the church, whereas other Protestant groups believe that children can be baptised. There is argument on both sides as to which is correct according to the Bible: as far as I remember, it comes down to the Baptists saying that only adults were baptised, whereas other groups say that there are definitely some children being baptised in the Bible, so therefore children can be baptised. This is an example of a general feeling among Baptists that there is an emphasis on what the Bible actually says, and an emphasis on the individual relationship with God, not an organisational relationship with God. (Historians - think Diggers and Levellers and Puritans again.)

Generally Baptists are very self-organising, not keen on hierarchies, and tend to be keen on Evangelism, i.e. spreading the good news of Christ.

You might say also that Baptists are a lot more happy-clappy than Methodists, and go in for singing more up to date hymns.

"and take scripture, reason and tradition as a guide for deciding doctrinal issues"

are there other methods as well Fairphyllis? or is it a non literal approach and the alternative is a literal reading of scripture to decide doctrine?

very interesting about Baptists - are british baptists the same as southern baptists in america? they seem quite prominent dominant there? am i right in assuming the episcopalians are more found in Boston and the East Coast not the South? in the UK which regions had active methodists? i read a little about them when i was doing research on the trade union movement years ago for my A level history coursework - i got quite taken with them from then on.

For Methodism in England, Staffordshire and the north midlands (also Cheshire & Shropshire) are a good bet - Burslem in Stoke on Trent has one of the oldest Methodist chapels in the UK I think, it dates from 1740 and Wesley preached there himself. Mow Cop just outside of Stoke is the open air hillside where Primitive Methodism split from mainstream Methodism in the early 1800's when Bourne and Clowes held a revivalist meeting. Methodism is still very big in Stoke today, there are plenty of churches and chapels. It's very working class & trade union roots are also reflected in the area: the pits and the potbanks were fertile recruiting grounds for a new, community and person-centred rather than instuitutional religion. I was brought up in Stoke and my parents were Methodist but am an atheist now.

Parishes were formerly units of administration as well as religious centres.

Funny enough, looking at the Archdiocese of Dublin list of parishes all you get is a list of suburbs and city areas. You click on the suburb and the next page tells you what the parish name is. I have looked at a few and honestly was never aware of the actual names of the churches bar a few where there was more than one church in a town.

The CofI does the same with arrangement of its site.

Maybe this is an Irish thing,

CofE ... key thing to grasp is that it encompasses a huge range of belief and practice.

Established as a political settlement by Elizabeth I in order to secure her throne while keeping the country from slipping into civil war. Although the split with Rome happened under Henry VIII, he wasn't motivated by doctrinal concerns - he simply wanted a church that was under his control - but in order to get that, he had to ally himself with a group of people who wanted reform for disparate reasons - some genuine theological radicals, some who simply wanted to grab some of the Church's power. So under Henry, you end up with no papal authority, royal supremacy, dissolution of monasteries, and creeping Protestantism especially under the influence of Thomas Cromwell (campaign against idolatry). Reform accelerated under Edward (Prayer Book in English, destruction of images and rood screens, stone altars removed, clerical celibacy removed, vestments and church plate abolished etc etc.). Then Catholic restoration under Mary and repeal of all Henry and Edward's legislation - although she kept the title 'Supreme Head of the Church of England'!

Elizabeth reaches a compromise whereby the church is Protestant (she has to stake everything on Protestantism, or has no chance of keeping the throne) but retains many of the outward signs of Catholicism (vestments etc., elevation of the host during Eucharist, images and crucifixes in church, wafers for communion) while incorporating some Protestant practice and theology (services in English, priests can marry). Some things are a fudge - communion is considered consubstantiation rather than transubstantiation in RCism, and Elizabeth is called Supreme Governor rather than Supreme Head which is more acceptable to both Puritans and Catholics. Elizabeth is ruthless in tolerating neither loyalty to the Pope nor Puritan extremism, and the sheer length of her reign establishes the settlement as a done deal.

Result is that the CofE is able to tolerate a great deal of internal differences as long as everyone feels that they can use the Prayer Book in good faith, even if some people interpret it differently - having shared worship based on the Prayer Book is the hallmark of being Anglican (Anglican joke: you can tell the Bible is a holy book because so much of it is based on the Prayer Book).

Contemporary Anglicanism coming up ...

Methodist Churches in the US generally have bishops. The United Methodist Church has a great slogan/tag line: "Open hearts. Open minds. Open doors."
Methodism in the US also has a strong social justice emphasis.

I used to take my DC to happy clappy Baptist Coffee mornings - but they used to talk with a bit of fear about the Strict Baptists - Dont know anything about them. Also, there is a group where they wear headscarves and their houses have to be detatached - the local gossip was of a semi detatched house which they put a wall on - less than a cm but you could not have an attached house. No TV for the children and taught in their own schools -

What about William Penn - didn't he found Pennsylvania? He was persecuted for preaching in the streets - was he a methodist?

Are we doing Quakers - as we have a hall of theirs in my locality and I remember being told my 2 yr old with just her pants on in the hot summer was unsuitably dressed. They were even less impressed when aged 5 she tried to do trick or treating at theirs - apparently she was the devil's work?

Thank you for answering my questions.

next one - sorry. Is it only in Scotland that there is presbyterians and episocpalians?

No, the US has both, as does Canada and (IIRC) Australia.

This is reminding me of one of my favourite fiction characters - you need to read the 'Anne of Green Gables' books from when she's grown up. She ends up with a neighbour who is wonderfully eccentric and who thinks Methodists are basically one step removed from the devil, but Presbytarians are god's own people. I love her.

crescentmoon

I don't know anything about British Baptists, but Baptists differ greatly in the US. Southern Baptists are doctrinally quite conservative; it is a separate denomination from other Baptists in the US (some even more fundamentalist, some much less), and yes, there are a lot of them here. (I am in the Deep South.) I was brought up in the Episcopal Church so I can vouch that there is an Episcopal presence in the South, but it is less prevalent, except perhaps in Virginia. For example, in the small town I grew up in there were two Baptist Churches and one Methodist Church, and we had to travel 20 miles to a larger town to attend an Episcopal Church. It was the same for Catholics and Jews. There were more Presbyterian Churches because of heavy settlement by Scots (one 10 miles away in a medium-sized town). When I was a child, most of my friends were Baptists or Methodists and were usually from teetotal families; they liked to call us “Whiskypalians” because there was no church prohibition on alcohol (shockingly we even used it in Communion.) They called the Presbyterians (the other half of my family) “the frozen chosen.”

Fast-forward to contemporary Anglican practice: Much of the church structure and the average form of the Eucharist service can look like RCism, as the Prayer Book was in part modelled on Catholic liturgy. We have the same ranks of ordained ministry - bishop, priest and deacon, but women and married people can be ordained (but women can't be consecrated bishops yet). Infant baptism is the norm. CofE as the established church has an unusual legal obligation to care for 'all souls' in its parishes and to provide baptism, burial and marriage (the latter under certain conditions regarding remarriage after divorce). Concept of apostolic succession important for some Anglicans as it is where the church derives its spiritual authority from, in direct line from St Peter and Christ. Concept of what priesthood is may vary according to your Anglican tradition - e.g. the priesthood of all believers may be more or less important.

Variation in worship style and theological thought: huge range of variation in different traditions of the CofE. Here goes. I warn you all that this is all wildly biased and inaccurate though ...

Anglo-Catholics (who developed from a revival of catholicism called the Oxford Movement in the late 19thC) often do full-on bells and smells regularly, Corpus Christi processions, Adoration of the Sacrament, rosary, veneration of saints and praying for intercessions, may even use the Roman Missal instead of the Prayer Book. They are typically anti women priests and anti gay everything. Many of them buggered off to Rome when women were ordained or are joining the Vatican's new ordinariate. Generally believe in transubstantiation. Mass celebrated facing east. Want full reunion with RCC but unfortunately the RCC has moved on since the 19thC, so stay within the Anglican fold to avoid dealing with the unpleasant aesthetics of the modern RC church. Considers the number of sacraments to be seven, as in RCC.

Another group: catholic Anglicans. Also see the Anglican church as fully catholic but look to pre-Reformation English Catholic practice as a guide to liturgical practice. Percy Dearmer is their hero, not the Oxford Movement people. Often see Anglicanism as the full English expression of Catholicism - English-rite Catholicism, like Orthodox Church is Eastern-rite Catholicism. Would vaguely like to be in communion with Rome but little chance of that as they tend to be pro-women and pro-gay everything. Typically high traditional worship style but super liberal theology. Slightly vague on what exactly they think about the Eucharist - may waffle on about consubstantiation. Celebrant may face east at the consecration. Typically Anglo-centric thinking in that from their point of view, Rome must repent of its schism from Anglicanism before Christian unity is achieved. Often prefers Prayer Book to Common Worship (the new service book for the CofE), but may use CW from time to time. Concept of apostolic succession very important. Place emphasis on incarnational theology rather than theories of atonement. May be into social justice issues. Eight sacraments (the 8th is the sherry after the service).

*Conservative evangelicals*: More emphasis on the Protestant nature of Anglicanism. Worship style may range from middle of the road to the happy clappy, tambourines, guitars and hymns on a projector. May have big youth/student wings. Definitely no women OR gays in leadership. May not be into vestments or crosses in church. Definitely not up for partaying with Rome. Only two sacraments. Service may not be terribly recognisable as Anglican. Less emphasis on Eucharist. Emphasis on personal relationship with God and on Christ's sacrifice on the cross (penal substitutionary atonement) as a way of "being right with God". May be characterised as fundamentalists - typically v conservative on issues like abortion. Stronger emphasis on scripture than on tradition or reason when working out theological positions on stuff.

*Open Evangelicals*: again more Protestant and worship style from middle of the road to happy clappy. Women OK - for this reason they are usually very close to the Methodists. Not generally into bling. Two sacraments. Communion may be symbolic. Apostolic succession less important here. Tend to be more inclusive on social issues than con-evos. Into sharing the gospel. You may find here the Evangelical Left, who are typically into campaigning on social justice and environmental issues.

*Middle of the road*: your bog-standard parish church. Probably has a woman vicar in a not too-blingy vestment. Probably an oldish church with stained glass etc and cross and two candles on the altar. Uses Common Worship and sings hymns that everybody knows. Sensible, non-radical sermons. Coffee after service. Brownies, Guides, Mothers Union etc. Ecumenical services with the Methodists and Catholics. A wide range of opinion/heresy about everything probably bubbles under the surface, but everyone is too busy fundraising to buy a new roof to have big theological fallings-out.

Some Anglican churches may also be charismatic: i.e. influenced by Pentecostalism - speaking in tongues etc. Emphasis on the gifts of the Holy Spirit. You may also find Fresh Expressions of Church in various places - this is experimentation with worship formats and outreach to people who are dechurched or unchurched.

Holy crap I am so sorry for that essay. Shutting up now.