I do get very fed up with so many people saying "if you do x then y will definitely follow" e.g. if you model kind, polite behaviour then your dcs will copy you with the implication that if your dcs aren't kind and polite all the time that you aren't doing a very good job as parents

one thing that having three dcs has taught me is the power of personality - all three of mine are markedly different - one gets into trouble at home and school, one would rather be eaten by crocodiles than get into trouble anywhere, ever and the other (my 5 year old dd) is an angel at school and can be pretty hideous at home

children are much, much more complicated than behaviourists would have you believe

Hi,

This is a message for fannybanjo and rebelmum1, and any other mum who has similar concerns about their child.

I wonder if you might take a look at my post here:

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/66/529247

If you'd like to get in touch, I'd be very grateful. And of course I'd be happy to share the results of my research so far, which I hope might be of some use.

Thanks,

Georgia

Good post Issy, what you say re personalities is what I think but haven't the intellect to put into words!

DD has been the model child since she has been home from school. Obviously they browse Mumsnet in Reception class.

I think I agree with Marina's post, that actually now is almost a key transitional age. (My DD is rising 5).

Things that were funny as a toddler - imperious behaviour, self-centredness, the 'world revolves around me' mindset - things that we loved and commented on and pretty much encouraged are, I think, much less attractive in a 6 or 7 year old and as I don't think you can flick a behavioural switch at 6, I think you have to start phasing it out at about this age.

My DD is sassy, articulate and hugely funny, but we do keep a fairly stern eye open for precocious behaviour. I'm very unaccepting of rude or diva'ish behaviour, I have to say - and reading this sounds like I have a fairly low threshold comparatively.

DD does get massively tired out by things, and when she is tired she can really disintegrate. I find it eay to forget, because she is so articulate, that she is quite small still and really still does need snacks and rests and idle pottering. Agree with Issy that just the whole negotiating of a day at school can be exhausting - throw an activity on top of that and we have a recipe for disaster chez Anchovy.

Why, thank you Cory! <<preen>>

And I think you made two particularly good points and that's not just because you said you liked my posts!

First, it's all about personality. We learnt this the hard way this Christmas when we spent two weeks in Australia with my brother and his family. DD2 and my DN are both 5 and there the similarity stops. DD2 is insoucient, lives in the moment, generally doesn't give a damn what anybody else thinks (although she can be very sympathetic) and is fairly assertive with her peers. DN is hyper-anxious, always concerned about what might happen now and in the remote future, is hugely thoughtful, cares enormously about what other people are thinking about her and prefers to interact with older children and adults. DD2 loathes being told off and will get very upset if you push her too far; DN will spontaneously put herself in the "naughty chair". My SIL and I clashed politely but very painfully about parenting styles until we realised that our styles were shaped not by us but the personalities of our children.

Second, I don't like star charts etc.. You inevitably end up with some days with no or very few stars and then there is a permanent and visible record of the 'bad times' until the chart falls down behind the radiator and is forgotten. I would even go further than Cory's "I want a system that allows all unpleasantness to be put away and forgotten at the end of the day". I want a system that allows us to move on almost immediately. As a child I loathed the sentiment "You were doing so well/we were having such a lovely day and now you've spoiled it." The idea that a whole day of happy co-operation can be wiped out by a nasty tantrum at its fag-end is particularly dispiriting for a child who has only a tenuous grasp on self-control.

I think also that our perceptions of who is easy to get along with vary according to how confident we feel. It may be that you get along fine with your drama queens, motherinferior, because you are confident enough to enjoy all their positive sides.

Sometimes when I read posts on MN they do read as if the poster is getting a bit bogged down by one aspect of a child's behaviour.

Christ, mine are total drama queens: but they're still quite easy to get along with, dammit.

Yes imaginary my dd deliberately wees on the floor when I'm busy and not responding to her because she knows I don't like it and that I know she does it on purpose it then follows by a 'oops sorry I missed' which is obviously not true.. the reason she does this is to change my reaction thus getting me to change my original position and direct my attention towards her which is 'manipulation'..

she deliberately does naughty things when she doesn't get her own way..

I always do like your posts, Issy!

I think one has to accept that people have different personalities. The OP mentioned that she and her partner argue quite a bit. Now I would think that perfectly dreadful because it doesn't happen in my house- dh and I usually resolve our difficulties by laughing together. No, seriously folks, I'm trying to get something across here. Which is that dh and I aren't actually forcing ourselves to follow some wonderful system, because we're such clever people; it just so happens that this comes naturally to us, because we're fairly laidback people. It's a question of personality - and of personal chemistry.

Dd, on the other hand, was very temperamental when she was little and still is more of a drama queen than either of us. In fact, she reminds me of my Mum, who (though lovely) is much more of a foot-stamping door-slamming person. It's a question of personality.

What I have tended to do is to insist (calmly) on the rules being followed but ignore any attendant stroppiness. The result has been good: we have a good relationship, and these days we can usually laugh together at her dramatic tendencies.

I am not a great one for escalating punishments at the best of times, nor sticker charts either; I want a system that allows all unpleasantness to be put away and forgotten at the end of the day.

Funnily enough ds, who was a beautifully docile and compliant child until age 7, has now entered a stroppy phase. Nothing to do with our parenting methods, I'm sure; but we're trying to deal with him in the same way.

Another thing is, we have always stressed the demarcation between public and private, explaining that you can show your feelings at home, but not necessarily in front of other people. Neither dd or ds has ever been in trouble at school, and teachers always speak of how lovely they are.

In my mind behaviour is not maniuplative when it's so transparent.

... deliberately weeing on the floor? Really? I wouldn't be keen on that.

i understand what it means, thanks

perhaps you don't understand the meaning if you think it's sad

i dont think of it like that, sorry

eh? they are manipulative, deliberately crying, weeing on the floor to what they want, how else would you describe it?

my dd constantly tries to negotiate which is very very wearing.

i find it sad when people use the word 'manipulation' when talking about small chidlren

I think it's more of a question of temperament than intellect. Intellect comes into it where manipulation is used very skillfully ..

I don't buy the notion that over-intelligent kids behave badly because they're under-stimulated. An over-intelligent child should be intelligent enough to entertain themselves. Maybe it's the 'docile' (horrid expression that's been used very wrongly to describe dd) ones who are most intelligent as they don't need to seek outside stimulation / attention all the while.

My 5 1/2 year old is a bit of a closet diva, she's much more dramatic about things than I've ever been. Despite that impetuous side of her character which I've had to learn how to handle she's a lovely polite funny girl and I wouldn't allow her to speak to me rudely and she doesn't. She usually races off in floods of tears because she can't undo a button or some other vital tragedy and I let her get on with it, then she reappears looking a bit smudgy, then I can ask if she'd like help, which she usually would, and we move on. It's a bit strange at times (dealing with the seemingly unnecessary nature of her tears) but we get along fine like that.

At school she has never ever cried. I find this extraordinary. At the first parents' evening I was expecting all kinds of remarks about her dramatic temperament but the teacher didn't raise it. So I flinchingly asked 'does she cry at lot?' and the teacher looked shocked and replied that she had never yet seen dd cry even one time when she fell and really hurt herself.

Since then I've been even more accepting of her demonstrations at home as I figure she must be storing up a hell of a lot of steam at school which needs to be let off big time at home. Only not at me. I'm there to mop up the tears and ease her through the aftermath.

mines a wee bugger too at times and I run out of sanctions, I think you need a whole consistent method for any behavior that you don't want to condone. It's finding somethingthat they'll respond to my dd is desperate for some doll or other and I have a star chart when she gets so many she can have the doll .. the holy grail she doesn't get a star if she is naughty.. seems to be working, she get the doll when she's in her twenties tho.. I take toys hostage too..

dd2 is obsessed with things being right or wrong - it can be a real bone of contention

she will make a brilliant lawyer

agree with your approach Issy - that is how NOT to squash children; you've asserted what needs doing, you have 'won' and you don't NEED to follow each little remark down and squash it. I think the raised eyebrow is fine and enough - they need to save face and feel they have some bit of power left

I think it can impact on their self esteem if they all avenues of retaining their ability to 'fight back' in any small way, are closed off to them

I let mine be horrible to me sometimes if I know they have to get something off their chest

then I hug them

sometimes they hate that

No, I don't think so Issy. You do have to pick your battles. At moments like that dh can be remorseless, almost to Torquemada proportions and it all usually ends in avoidable tears.
Once we have a result and an apology I usually do what you do - a raised eyebrow and a Look - at any esprit de l'escalier mutterings

Thanks Issy I really liked your post.
Got to go now.....

The cocky thing is difficult. On the one hand one doesn't want to tolerate cockiness and general rudeness, on the other hand you don't want to 'fight every battle'. DD2 is very rarely oppositional for the sake of it but she has a very strong sense of her 'own agenda' and finds it hard to lose face. I think that toeing the line at school is probably hard-going for her, although she manages it very well. There are times when we have a battle over doing something at home that doesn't fit with her agenda - I want her to clean her teeth, she can't possibly do anything until she has finished making a new bed for her baby penguin - that end with her capitulating but flinging a final salvo along the lines of "You are a naughty mummy". It is rude and cocky, but I tend to raise my eyebrows, let it go and move on to what is generally a patch of fully co-operative behaviour. Am I raising a monster?

I agree re not being frustrated by intelligence. Most of the girls I know and some are very bright are just really pleasant children. I seem to be repeating everything MI says. Sorry.

I think it's perfectly legit to say I don't want you to talk to me like that, innit?

(Marina, your dd is lovely!)

I have an oversquash tendency too Sykes
Insolence in small children is a real parp for me.

I do worry that I over squash. Am trying v hard not to - particularly elder dd - but can't bear cocky children. Oh, dear.

poissonrouge is a masterpiece, agreed. Ds and dd play it together.

Frankly, sorry, I don't buy this 'she's being nasty to me because she is so clever and is frustrated by her own cleverness' line. Most of the small girls I know seem quite bright, and are nice to be around.

Mine have their moments at home but their manners are pretty good when on the loose. We don't stand for cheek at home, although ds has perfected a worrying line in borderline wit/cheek/sarcasm lately. Sometimes I wish he were not so clever .
I don't think cheek means intelligence either, it means rudeness. Around this age I think some parents sort of forget that their little Receptioner is not a toddler any more, and what was charitably written off as effing fours is about to become intolerable and socially disadvantageous at rising six.
Dd, almost five, is imperious and we are working on that too. I think it's because she is the youngest in her class and unluckily in the sights of some rather annoying alpha girlies, so she likes to boss us around at home. But she's not the devil incarnate. She is quizzical, energetic, eccentric and loving.

By way of background DD2 is bright, quirky, lives for the moment and is generally wired to the moon.

I do think that starting school can have a big impact on a child's behaviour. It's not just tiredness, although that's a huge factor and DD2 does nothing at all after school and gym on Saturday if we can all be bothered to get up for it. Beyond that, I suspect that Reception requires a lot of behaving extraordinarily well (for a 5yo), some real excitement and getting pumped up about finding out that you can do a whole range of new things from reading Biff and Kipper to changing into your gym kit by yourself and quite a lot of relatively innocent jostling and asserting as pecking orders and friendships are formed and reformed.

All of that plays out at home. We've found unstructured time after school, a careful eye on hunger and tiredness and a little light squashing of over-bumptiousness helps.

dd2 loves mathswhizz.com as well although you have to give it some commitment

Her reading is really good. Teachers very pleased with her. She will sit and read a book for a while but gets fed up with it easily, likes to jump around from one activity to another.
Havent heard of jump ahead or cluefinders, will look that up thank you.

also - tell her that its a bit crap having a baby around but that he will get better/be more fun when he is older

my 8 year old still loves it

they put the insects on with the funny music and do a stupid dance around the sitting room

www.poissonrouge.com is a great website for fun easy learning. mind you my 3 yr old uses it so its maybe a bit basic

at 5 they can easily navigate site without any help at all and they get a sense of achievement doing it themselves

I once read that whinging and whining is learnt behaviour. Thry try it, get a positive response from their point of view, so they do it again. I try hard to ignore and keep this sentence in my head when they do it. Obviously can't manage it all the time.......

Yes, she has a sibling and they get on really well so that helps. But I have several friends with one child and while I know the parents do tend to perhaps do a bit more than me - we do some activities - their girls seem pretty self contained and are lovely children. Not really sure. My younger dd is much more, shall we say, outspoken and likely to push boundaries, than her sister but I really don't expect rudeness. If she is she apologies - properly.

all 5 yr olds get tired easy and frustrated cos they cant yet express how they feel as precisely as they wouldlike. they dont recognise they are tired. they get bonmbarded with info

if my dd is being dificult and i know she is tired and/or frustrated i put herin her room - not as punishment - andi tell her to lieon her bed and look at some books or play with dollies. and i tell her to deep breathe - dont laugh - i tell her to lie on the floor like astar and close her eyes and relax

it works

how is her reading?

Well if you think she is clever then perhaps some educational stuff on the pc?

Jump Ahead, Cluefinders etc

of course your mother would say that. dd is her grandchild

all grans say that sort of thing

being a cheeky child does not mean intelligence

Enid, sounds like bliss.
I love my daughter to pieces but she isnt the easiest of creatures as many of my friends have quietly observed! My mum says it is because she is too intelligent for her age. I think my Mums observation is ridiculous, what does she expect me to do, tell her she isnt allowed to think for a few years so her body can catch up with her mind! I think she gets frustrated!

dd2 is intelligent

and not cheeky with me (although she is with her sisters which is quite funny)

she is too busy doing sums and practising spelling to be cheeky

My dd is rather over-enthusiatic sometimes

We went to teh doctor (for me) the other day and as we were leaving she jumped on the Dr and gave her lots of big kisses

Have no idea why being cheeky would make you think a child was intelligent. I'd just think they were cheeky.

dd1 is docile

she is chilled to the bone most of the time

it is lovely

Sykes, sounds wonderful the image you have painted. How do I get that to happen then?
Is it because my daughter doesnt have siblings that playing for a few hours in the garden isnt appealing to her? I do as much as I can with her but then DH comes home and wonders why the house is a tip, so finding the balance to do eveything is tricky!

'I love it when they are cheeky like that, shows intelligence!'

So not speaking like that shows the opposite?

and 'docile' is distinctly sheep-like.

To be fair she had been playing being the Queen with my mum! It was role play rather than total cheekiness

Mother Inferior, maybe docile was the wrong word as it seems to have offended so much! Where did the thick and sheeplike come from?
Maybe we should insert amiable, willing & easy going instead to better capture my meaning!
My daughter's behaviour and manners are appalling sometimes I quite agree and other times they are wonderful - whenever she plays at anyone else's house they always tell me how well mannered and what an angel she has been.
However that is separate from her spiritidness. I agree rudeness is something else entirely. Being feisty doesnt mean being rude. My definition of being spirited is being outspoken, lively, curious, able to express all of your emotions rather than hide them (even if others dont like it), quick mind that questions everthing, etc

No, mine doesnt watch a great deal of telly either.

Sometimes I think I must be a bit of an ogre or maybe have a couple of drips for daughters. I can't understand why some children are so rude to their parents each other. I can't imagine putting up with it - I expect politeness and being kind. It's not a huge amount to ask. And how/why do children get so bored? They should be able to occupy themselves, surely, without having an activity virtually every day. I LOVE it when we can come home and the girls go in the garden and play for a few hours. so do they.

Enid, I agree though re your relationship with your DH. DH and I have had a lot of financial issues recently hence more arguments/stress. We probably need to look at our relationship and see if being more harmonious to each other benefits her (well of course it will). We did have a chat last night and have sorted a few problems we had out. We have had quite a stressful 12 months and it is probably taking its toll on DD.

I bloody love my kids. With a quite embarrassing passion.

your daughters always sound lovely mi

even though they cant spell

I am more shouty and horrid when I have pmt and my kids are more difficult then too

even dh has noticed (thanks for pointing that out )

not smug, just TRUE

Kids don't need coaching, they pick up how things are done around them and generally if you are polite to them, they will be polite to you

Oh dear, we huff and shout a lot. All of us. Especially if we're tired and hungry .

I still stand by the belief that my daughters are quite lovely.

god that sounded smug

dh and I are very courteous to each other

I think mine have picked it up as they are very polite generally

Nobody likes the word no.

the servant comment has genuinely made me laugh out loud

cheeky so and so

I agree that alot of the cockiness can be picked up from school and that's why at this stage I think it's so important to be really careful about the way you speak TO the child yourself...if home is always a place where people are polite and courteous to each other then that does sink in and this becomes just a phase (ok I'm not saying people never get cross with eachother, but most of the time at least...)

Picking up and praising ANY good behaviour at all (even if it's not actively being GOOD, could be just sitting quietly in front of the telly!) gives you a chance to say how lovely she is and how proud you are of her etc, and allows you to build up her view of herself as a good, polite child

Don't engage with cockiness or rudeness, just say you don't talk to people who talk to you that way

Don't get into 5 yr old style to and fro arguments with her - hard though it can be to resist, we have to, we are NOT 5!

Agree with binning much of the out of school activities; that's alot in a week for such a young child and she WILL be tired; if she seems bored, a visit to the park or chasing bubbles round the house will suffice IMO

dont these 'bored' kids play with stuff?

What makes you "spirited"? I would say most children are in their own way, they have their likes and dislikes like we do! They just don't like the word NO!

I would say thats fine

I would drop an activity

they are all really knackered at this time of year even school-loving, docile dd2!

Countess/Not a Banana
Yep, mine also had that wierd idea in her head that I was her servant. One day she boomed out 'I am the boss of this house'.
Ahemmmmmm no you are NOT young lady. She was quite indignant when she discovered she wasnt!
Fannybanjo - I know what you mean re the after school activities, mine wants stimulating all the time, she did right from a baby, we havent got her signed up for much at the moment because everyone says dont when they are in their first year of school. The thing is, she thrives on being with others and keeping her mind active, so actually she is getting bored (thus the whining I guess) so I need to start finding her things to attend. As long as your DD isnt tired I would keep the activities going if she enjoys them.

Enid, she watches probably 45/60 mins a day. 20 mins in the morning and probably half an hour to 45 mins in the evening (to wind down before bed) would you say that is too much?
She will watch it quite a bit on a Saturday morning whilst I tidy around but we always do activities together. I admit I do a lot less with her now I have DD2 to see to but she seems to have adjusted okay.

I do rather resent the implication that my daughters are thick and sheep-like.

sorry but being a difficult child does not make you 'spirited'

even quiet docile children can be spirited in their own way - it doesnt mean rude you know!

my dd is 6 tomorrow and she is just the same!!

Her attitude to me & dh is appalling (how can such a youngster have such scathing sarcasm???) and she has diva-strops at the most ridiculous things.

We too are hoping it is a phase...

yes agree lots of activities

dd2 does swimming on a saturday and ballet on a friday

My 6 year old can be a bitch from hell most days- does that make you feel better?

My dds are not docile or unspirited but if they called me their servant or skivvy it would unleash the less docile side of me to a scary extent.

They can be feisty without being rude.

I agree that the OP's child sounds as though she's tired and maybe got too many evening activitie while still getting used to school.

does she watch too much tv?

kids that seem to need constantly 'stimulating' nearly always do I find

lol at servant

sorry but my 5 year old is a delight most of the time.

she is probably tired? all mine got more freaked out and grumpy when the babies get to about 8 months as the baby becomes a real person then (smiling sitting up etc) so therefore more competition?

my 8 year old can be a surly clever-dick however

My children are not docile, actually, Zophiella, and they're pretty spirited. They can strop and tantrum like god knows what. But they are fundamentally lovely kids. I personally think.

Countess/Not a Banana -

I love it when they are cheeky like that, shows intelligence!

What you are all saying makes sense, problem is she really really wants to do all these activities. I cut back to one a week and she was bored (even though I take her to park/local play centre or would just make cakes/play with her on her trampoline etc). Its like she needs to be stimulated all the time.

Zophiella, I feel for you, this is what I have to deal with too, not so much tantrums but whinging. I agree regarding them having spirit. I was the same as a child and am no pushover as an adult. I would rather her be able to stand up for herself!

My 7 year old son recently called me his skivvy.

Mine is the little girl who had a little curl right in teh middle fo her forehead

really

She is sweet and loving and giving and adorable one moment

And the devil incarnate the next

I came down this am and she said "Good morning servant"



(she had a pompous nose in the air look on her too)

Hi there
When she is good she is magical.....but right now my 5 year old daughter seems to have become a teenager already. She has just shouted at me 'I wont, and you cant make me'. Hmmmmm. I dont believe in smacking and I have already withdrawn all treats and TV. Time out doesnt work. What do other people do in this instance to show her that actually she WILL have to do as she is told, without getting fuming angry. Sadly my 5 year old still throws major tantrums and is a terrible whinger. From what I have seen of her school mates and her little friends she plays with out of school, it seems pretty normal for them to be majorly defiant (probably learning it from some of the older children?) - my dilemma is how to deal with it (my daughter is a very feisty and strong willed Arian). There are those lovely docile children you see trotting down the road attached to mummy's heels and for a moment I wish mine was like that but actually I love her bright minded creative spiritidness but boy can it be hard work at times...........

I think that taking her out for one on one is excellent idea.

I think what dd misses most since starting school is having adult attention. She has gone from being one of the top dogs in a small preschool, with days out with my mother, and time with just me, to having to share adult attention at all times, so there's always ds around when I'm around, she's in a class of 30 with 2 staff, she doesn't get to see my mother as much.

Also, dd only does swimming after school once a week, as I've made a conscious effort to keep after school low key. It must be exhausting for them at first.

Both my daughters are appalling if they are hungry and/or tired. They're absolutely lovely if they're fed and rested! And they're seven and nearly five.

i think 3 after school activities a week is too much.

let her rest more. and give her one to one

Thanks for your replies, I think it could be tiredness (she does Gymbobs on a Monday, Swimming Lessons on Tuesday and Gymnastics on a Thursday). I might drop the Monday Gymbobs. Fortunately baby is an angel, doesn't murmur at all at night!

She is a very active girl, and I mean ACTIVE but I think she is probably getting worn out. She had a school trip yesterday and was tired, probably why she hit her friend, more out of frustration than anything.

Tomorrow I am leaving the baby with my mum and going to take her out to fair on our own. She probably needs a bit of one on one with me.

find out wy she is being like this
is she havng a hard time at school?
she may be worried about not having friends, not understanding some of the work, or a simple thing like she doesnt know what ot do if she needs the toilet or at lunchtime
is she losing out on sleep with the baby cryng at night? making her grumpy?
is she doing too many activities after school which are making her tired?
is she feeling unwell?

or there may be a problem she just cant express to you

take he away from the house and go on a long bus trip or something - where you can chat with her and there is nothing to distrct her

good luck

Has she recently started school? I think it can be a bit difficult when you start school, to work out how to behave at school and at home.

But no, they're not all like this. Sounds as if various things like the baby and school have thrown her, actually.

Because mine is. Life is becoming one long battle. Please reassure me she will grow out of it as I also have an 8 month DD and I am not looking forward to reliving this stage again.

She has become "mean". She barely acknowledges her baby sister, is cocky to me and her dad and I have heard her being quite mean to her friend (who gives as good as she gets). She just doesn't seem to realise how her behaviour is wrong. I have taken privileges away but what else can I do?