I went to my local toddler group today with my dd2 who is 7wks. I was in the baby play area for non moving babies iyswim with dd laid on the play mat when a toddler (? age but walking) threw a tripod style gym thing which hit dd2 on the side of the head. It left a red mark I was stunned and didn't react at all, just scooped up a screaming dd2

I'd avoid the place like the plague

It's really difficult because the toddlers tend to do thier own thing (watched but unsupervised) and thier parents won't be on hand to make sure they're not doing anything. I tend to say to other children (in a happy singsong voice) 'ooh you hit the baby with that! you have to be so careful with the little babies'. Keep an eye and if it's the same child every time then talk to the parent.

If it's just a corner/area in a hall (ours is) can you and the other parents of babies have your backs to the room so you're a bit of a wall?

umm...my ds is still growing inside of me... but if anyone --- toddlers included --- ever even tried to hurt my son there'd be hell to pay. i personally don't believe in hitting but i would march up to that childs parent and expect them to see what their child did to mine and figure out a way to fix it.

i mean, i can't discipline someone else's child but i sure as hell can raise hell about how they're bringing up their kid.

**but then again, i'm not even a mother yet...so discount my say accordingly...**

We do have chairs in a ring around the area but toddlers can still get in to it. Don't get me wrong I don't expect them to be perfect (certainly not a PFB) but I felt like I should have done something, or said something. My dd1 has come close to doing things and I have been really hard with her. She has got the message clearly to be careful around the babies and never throws things like that iyswim.

i guess a warning to the kid would have been fair.

I have to say I have no compunction in telling off other people's children if they are harming - or threatening to harm - mine. I would expect others to do the same.

Not with the same fierceness that I would tell off my own, obv.

You did the right thing - comforting your child is the only thing you really can do. I wouldn't stop going to the group unless you think the layout is not suitable for mixing tinies and preschoolers. I have to say I did stop going to a lovely group when my DS2 got a bit more mobile as he was always being ridden over on trikes by older boys. Found a much quieter one nearer my house. Of course none of my mates go there but...

Of course one feels awful if one's baby is hurt. I would, as pinkspottywellies suggested, tell the toddler not to do that, and try to eye the parent who most probably would be embarrased. Also I wouldn't trust any toddler near my baby, the fact that a toddler walks doesn't mean he/she has fully control of his/her actions.
So, eandz, probably you need to learn a bit more about children before you start crusades against some toddler trying to hurt your baby And also I think it is exagerated to "raise hell" about the way some parent is raising his toddler based on such behaviour. But then again many of us have had to eat our words after having children

Presumably the toddler didn't MEAN to hurt your baby though?

Don't get me wrong, I would have been all cross and protective in the same situation, but with the best will in the world little toddlers do things we don't want them to do. It happens. Well it did with all of mine anyway.

I think I would just tell the child to be careful and not to throw toys and make sure your baby is well out of range next time.

I would comfort my baby and say to the toddler not to throw things that hurt a baby and make them cry.

I just don't get this thing about never correcting someone else's child. Presumably the parent/carer didn't see, you did, so you need to say something to the toddler.

Don't put a 7 week old baby down where toddlers are playing baby play area or not they don't need to 'play' with anyone/thing except you at that age

As for marching up and demanding the parents do something! well at the risk of sounding condescending when you have a toddler of your own you'll understand that its what toddlers do and while you need to teach them not to purposely hurt others you also need to give them opportunities to explore and figure things out for themselves. Its a balancing act between coming down to hard and being over controlling and guiding them towards accepted behaviour.

eandz on Mon 12-May-08 21:52:42
"umm...my ds is still growing inside of me... but if anyone --- toddlers included --- ever even tried to hurt my son there'd be hell to pay. i personally don't believe in hitting but i would march up to that childs parent and expect them to see what their child did to mine and figure out a way to fix it.

i mean, i can't discipline someone else's child but i sure as hell can raise hell about how they're bringing up their kid. "

Eands, if you are having a baby, I think you're going to have to live with the thought that the day may come when it's your toddler hurting someone else's precious baby. Not because of any faults in your child-rearing, but because toddlers haven't much sense.

You may even find yourself with an aggressive toddler who does it whenever they get a chance- you just hope that the other child's parent doesn't come marching over to raise hell about how you raise your child!

I have been in a situation where my toddler was regularly hurt by another toddler, but fortunately I had too much experience by then to believe that the parents were actually raising him to do that. Instead, we tried to work out ways of keeping ds safely out of his way.

This is becoming my mantra: UNREALISTIC EXPECTATIONS.

A child under 3 is a baby - they don't understand beyond what is normal for a child of that age.

Don't put a baby aged 7 weeks on the floor at a toddler group.

I am sorry your LO got hurt, but consider how you would explain the difference between a baby area and a toddler area to a toddler, and how you would expect a toddler to understand and remember the information.

agree 100% with 3littlefrogs

there is a tendancy i think for parents to see any child who is even slightly older than their own as basically a grown up with full responsibility for their actions.

I am assuming this child was about 2? that is the max age they usually are at toddler groups.

a 2 year old will not have MEANT to hit the baby, they don't have that good aim!

You do have to go to these places prepared to watch your own children like hawks I find.

Well, I have to say I expected to get flamed (again) for suggesting that the floor at a plygrup isn't a suitable place for a 7 week old glad to hear that for once I'm not alone

instead of taking him to a toddler group i would find out about nct bumps and babes meetings in your area. it's all pregnant ladies and small babies so no marauding toddlers. you still to get to chat to other mums and you feel more relaxed too.

unless you are taking an actual toddler-i wouldn't go to a toddler group with a baby

agree with MMJ, you'd be better off at a baby massage/bumps and babies/other group aimed at babies, not toddlers.

The toddler didn't throw it at your baby. They just aren't capable of thinking 'if I do this, it might hurt someone'. And even if the mother had been watching him or her like a hawk, it might still have happened - toddlers are fast and unpredictable.

here is their website. if you put in your postcode you will find a local group.

It would be appreciated if people could read my posts and not just the OP.

1. I asked how you would have handled it.
2. I am a CM so I do understand that toddlers do things that are unpredictable which is why I didn't react, as I didn't know how old the child was.
3. I didn't leave the baby unattended on the play mat in the baby area, I was sat right next to her and turned to say bye to a friend.
4. I made no reference to all toddlers knowing how to behave/ parents doing nothing.

PS I disagree with posters who say toddlers are not capable of thinking something will hurt another child, having minded 3 toddlers from 16mths to 19mths in age, they all knew how to throw/ push other children and that it was unacceptable.

PS my 7wk old is not like most 7wk olds, she is in 3-6mth clothes and is more alert than lots of 3mth olds I know. She can also stand up holding just her forearms taking her full weight.

I think you will also find that the definition of a child over 18mths is a toddler not a 'baby'. Under 18mths is a baby. My 2.4yo knows full well when she has done something naughty.

I think to the pregnant woman who said 'i mean, i can't discipline someone else's child but i sure as hell can raise hell about how they're bringing up their kid. "...just you wait.

It is really easy to be judgemental. Unfortunatly children don't always (espec toddlers) behave how they are told to and are often really badly behaved much to the embarrassment of their parents. I'm sure your own will be the same.

And I also agree playgroups are full of boisterous toddlers running around and I wouldn't put a 7 week old down where toddlers were running. Sorry.

I also think it's bad judgement to lay a 7wk old down in an area near lively toddlers. While the toddlers may be aware at times not to throw things, sometimes in the excitement of the moment they will become unaware of others in the near area and sometimes it can just happen. Of course, it's not acceptable and they should be reminded of that but lapses happen. It's a parent's job to be aware of possible risks(although most of us have had our off days and lapses of concentration ourselves, I'm sure). I would have reminded the toddler that the baby was there and to be more careful, then I'd have moved away.
Eandz I think you might find that your post of 12-May-08 21:52:42 is so going to come back and bite you at some point.

"PS my 7wk old is not like most 7wk olds, she is in 3-6mth clothes and is more alert than lots of 3mth olds I know. She can also stand up holding just her forearms taking her full weight. "

I must be missing something, why is this relevant?

Unless she can deflect toddler generated missiles with those strong forearms I really would not leave her lying down at all at soft play.

My dd2 is 3 months and like yours astoundingly gifted in many varied ways. However, I still keep her in a sling or a pushchair at soft play.

"I must be missing something, why is this relevant?"

because it means she is RIGHT and we are WRONG, of course

you don't get a miraculous baby like that by being WRONG about things, you know Filly

Think its important to point out you shouldn't allow a 7 week old baby to take their full weight on their legs. They don't have fully formed knee caps at that age and you could possibly be damaging their joints and bones. Of course let them have standing exercise but at 2 months old you should still be taking the bulk of their weight

OP if you post in a public forum you really should expect a range of views not all of which will align with your own.

Toddlers DO NOT have the capacity to understand right from wrong or the impulse control needed to make a conscious decision NOT to throw a toy because it might hurt someone. That is what we as parents should be teaching them consistently and patiently and its something many children don't appreciate fully until they reach school age. As a CM I would have hoped you would have understood that!

Pheebe, I thought that if a baby could take it's weight and stand then the muscles of the legs were developed enough for it to do that. If they can't take their weight the legs just buckle under them. Mine did a lot of that bouncing thing if you pulled them into an upright position by holding their hands.

MMmm, the child in question is a toddler, what can you do? Make sure if they do it again you ask their parent to watch them but for a one time offence I would say nothing.

What remarkable children you seem to produce/know. My DS is 20 months and I can't get hom to understand that pulling hair to get your own way is not the done thing. I have to supervise him quite carefully at the moment. When he was a few weeks old I had to supervise him even more carefully at playgroup because his wellfare was my responsibility, not the toddlers in the room. You turned away to speak to your friend.....these things happen in a split second. But no real harm done.

I wouldn't take a 7 week old to a toddler group. However advanced in physical development he/she would be. I took my DS2 to toddler groups when he was very young (where DS1 was used to go and enjoyed going) and I kept DS2 in a sling the whole time.

Agree with Blueberry. I used to keep ds on my lap at dd's toddler group.

juule, its not about their muscle strength, even new borns have a remarkable amount of strength in their arms and legs, its that their joints and bones aren't strong enough, and in the case of their knees fully formed enough, to bear their body weight

Pheebe I have spoken to both my GP and my HV about her standing and it is fine. My DD1 also did this at a young age and it has caused no ill effects/bow leggedness etc in her. She walked perfectly fine at 11mths
PS I wanted to post this yesterday but my computer server went down.
I did not judge the mother of the toddler or expect him to know it was wrong, but all toddlers have different understanding at different ages, which is why I said nothing.
As it happens I felt sorry for the mother who was busy trying to bf her baby. I just asked how you would have handled it. I didn't ask for retrospective should have dones. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
My point about my dd2 being big for her age was that she is a little more robust than most newborns iyswim. I was sat right next to her in a cordoned off area designated for babes in arms.

BTW I used to be a nurse on an orthopeadic ward when I first qualified. Infants are born with kneecaps, however, they are mainly cartilage and have not ossified. They develop around the 4th month of gestation and continue to ossify until adulthood.

Thanks tori, you're right about the kneecaps of course, what I meant was that they're not strong enough to prevent the knee joint over extending in the 'wrong' direction IYSWIM for some time after birth.

PS, the advice you've had is opposite to what we were told by our paed...another case of conflicting medical opinion I guess