DD (4)got hold of my nail varnish last night (see housekeeping thread) and 'decorated' her wall and carpet.

She was due to get £5 today for earning all her sickers this week, with no crosses, and DH was going to take her out for a long bike ride. She has lost both of these - she was initially upset as she want to buy her self some new pyjamas while out with her dad, but in just half an hour seems not to be bothered any more.

DH and I are trying to think what to do to show her the severity of her crime, in terms of the carpet is ruined. We've told her how cross we are but she just looks through us when we speak to her.

Cant do too much in terms of no telly on or keeping her in, as she has a little brother too who would suffer as well.

Next move is to take her favorite music away in her bedroom, but that too seems to have had little impact. Can I have some help please.

Are you sure she's really not bothered? Children sometimes put on an act to save face - even little ones.

I think nail varnish is quite tempting for 4yos, as is decorating walls. Of course you need to make it clear this was A Very Bad Idea but I don't think you should pile punishment on punishment - one punishment for one crime in my book.

I feel so disapointed, I was already to make a big song and dance about 24 stickers and no crossing out and this has happened. We had pretty much planned the day around celebrating her success.

Dont want to keep going on at her, but she just seems so 'not bovered' that it makes me cross.

I know, it is very frustrating when they seem so careless. But an escalating battle of punishment will just make everyone sad.

What does she say when you ask her why she did it?

Does she understand why it's such a big deal?

Oh, and is the carpet ruined? Won't it come out with nail varnish remover? She can't have covered the whole carpet with one bottle can she?

make her help you clean it so that she can see what the consequences are! my dd is 4 and loves making mess after much fighting between her and her dad over the matter which involved her telling him 'its okay mummy will clean it up for us later'

i made her do some of the cleaning this helped her realise that it was not that simple and it took mummy a long time to sort these things out and as result she doesnt seem to empty out all her clothes all over the floor, throw her empty yoghurt cartons anywhere and be so laxidaiscal when it comes to spilling her cereal,

She earned the £5 so I think she should still have that. You are moving the boundaries. If you keep doing that she won't bother trying to earn them any more.

If this was the first time with the nail varnish there is no way she could have envisaged the damage. Obviously she should know how serious the damage is and often the best way to deal with this is to show how upsetting it is for you. The punishment should be along the lines of 'Dad doesn't feel happy about going for the bike ride now because he is still upset'

I'm a great believer in them knowing the consequences beforehand, otherwise life just seems to them to be one long punishment when they didn't even know things they were doing were wrong in the first place. Now you can tell her that opening nail varnish is wrong and she can expect to lose privileges if she does it again. This way she knows in advance what will happen and it will be her choice to not do it.

Why are you escalating the punishments? YOu've punished her already. This seems to be more about you getting the tearful reaction you want than her learning the lesson she needs to learn.

I agree with ellingwoman - you can't take away the money she earned for something unrelated. Plus, carpet and wall covered in nail varnish - nightmare for us; pretty pattern for her. If you've never told her not to, she won't not do it on her own...

I think the punishment you've given her is enough.
To be honest, I don't think that what she has done is that bad. Messy and annoying but in her eyes just experimental.
I think the taking two things away is a bit much, but then I am not really into punishment.
I prefer to tell them what they've done wrong and leave it at that.
Each to their own though!
She probably is more sorry than she is letting on.

Agree with others that if you've never told her not to do it, then how does she know it's wrong? As someone else said it's prettying the place up to her or she might only have seen the patterns she could make.
"the severity of her crime" She hasn't hurt anyone. She just needs guiding to show her that it's not a good idea. Talk to her. Certainly not deserving of the ott punishments that you are dreaming up.
So she's 'good' all week (hence the stickers, I presume)and with one inoffensive (to her) act all her good work is undone That doesn't seem a great idea.
Also, Im a bit at a 4yo getting £5 a week.
But aside from all that I think that you should keep your nail varnish etc out of a 4yo reach (too tempting) if you don't want this kind of thing to happen. I also think you should speak to her about it, let her know that you know that she didn't mean any harm and ask her to help you clean it up and 'wouldn't it be nice if we all helped to keep the house nice together' sort of thing.

ds1 dropped a bottle of scarlet nail varnish all over my oak and marble fireplace and on my my expensive kelim rug.

i was and

it allcame off.

i worked at it with nailpolish and a cloth/cotton wool.it took some elbow grease and time but it did come off.give it a go.

nailpolish REMOVER that should say!

Mmm I would be cross if my ds had done this but I wouldn't punish him in the ways you are suggesting. In her eyes she was just 'helping' and 'decorating', she had no idea that she's wrecking your home! I would just do as the others have said and talk to her about it being inappropriate and not to do it again!

Poor thing - punishment much too harsh IMO.

She's 4, been good all week and for just one wrong thing has lost her reward and a wonderful day out with dad. She will soon learn those stickers mean bugger all.

don't move the boundaries. She'll stop trusting them. Move the nail varnish instead.

She had 3 stickers to go to get her £5 and I would have helped her get them by finding her jobs to do (she also gets them for finishing meals as she is the worlds worst eater), so technically she had'nt earned it but I would have found ways to as it would have been her first week getting £5 instead of a material reward such as toy/comic/sweet.

It is not the first incident with nail varnish so she does know better. Both times she has actually climbed and searched as I have my nail varnish's high-up in a tall closed basket. Last time there was only a small blob spilled on the bed clothes which I have shown her wont come out with washing, and she is reminded of it each time we use the bedding - so she is aware of the consequences.

What I dont understand is the first time she did because she wanted to out some on. This time she did'nt even put it on. And although she did'nt cover the whole carpet there are streaks and blobs everywhere so I cant cover it all with a rug etc. The carpet is quite deep pile so it's not coming out, but some hairspray has broken the stains down and with regualr scrubbing I am hopping it will break down.

When asked why she did she just said she wanted to look at it, but then could'nt put it back.

She has been told she will not get her £5 now, as naughty behaviour leads to a crossed out sticker. And she has been told the bike ride has been cancelled. But I have not done anything else and we have moved on. She is now working on the sticker chart for next week as we always start and end on Sundays, and has already put all her washing away, used the dustpan and brush to clear up her brothers discarded lunch, and is currently helping daddy do some gardening.

FWIW Juule, the £5 which we will be working towards next week again will be given to her in 50p pieces and we will using it as a learning tool, spend some save some etc. She is hoping to get pyjamas again next week.

Send her round here please Lowfat!!

Perhaps she could teach my teenagers how to put washing away and clear up snack debris because they take no notice of me

I know, she is trying so hard to be good andhelpful and impress us, she has eaten all her lunch, drawn us pictures and now keeps saying 'I know, I could.....'. So as soon as she gets all 24 stcikers again she will get £5. :-)

But if she carries on for today I do have a comic lurking in the cupboard which she will get at bedtime.

Speechless

Juule, we had already sid no to £5 wheh I posted, to go back on that would confuse her as well.

I know what we have done may seem harsh but She is quite grown up for 4 and I feel we have handled this with the same application and attitude as other situations.

We are quite strict parents but trust me as I am sitting here I am watching her play in the garden having a tea party with her fairies and she is no worse off for the loss of £5 and a bike ride.

She is over the moon that he has already earned 4 stickers for all her help today and I think she has learned her lesson.

does she really understand the value of 5 pounds? My four year old wouldn't have a clue.

From your posts it looks as though she is being punished for not being visibly upset as much as she is for the original incident.

She's lost her £5/pyjamas, her bike ride with her dad, and on top of that you are/were considering taking away her favourite music too. Would this all have happened if she'd thrown herself to the floor in tears and spent the day sniffling and weeping?

Of yes, she is quite clued up on money, which is why we decided to do this.

She could'nt believe when I bought her a dress in H&M that it actualy cost just (£2.99) 50p more that a comic she wanted.

And she often asks to pay for odd things in shops it's her fav thing to do at the moment!

Coppertop - have you read the whole thread?

She lost £5 and a bike ride. She was going to buy herself the PJ's with the £5, and I was considering the music which has not happened.

Instead she spent 45 minutes watching me scrub her carpet.

This is yet another example of the unrealistic expectations that people have of very small children. 4 is very small - hardly any experience of life, and certainly no understanding of things from an adult's point of view. Why was the nail varnish where she could get it?

Oops - just realised she climbed and searched! That could be dangerous - maybe you need to rethink the storage.

Yes I've read the whole thread.

You still didn't answer my question.

I completly understand lowfats furstration. Dd (4) is completly oblivious to punishment, which at the moment is to sit on the step for 4 minutes. She does the same naughty things over and over and over again at times, or she will do something on purpose when i have specificaly asked her not too. She has never had a tantrum, and very, very rarely even looked upset when i have sat her on the step/taken sweets away etc. It is not that i want her to suffer, and i'm sure lowfat feels the same, but it is infuriating when, despite trying to explain your anger or dissapointment they sit there looking through you. Dd was sent to the step the other day for something that she has done many times, and each time had explained what was wrong about it. I was furious. I shouting, which i try not to do and dd's reaction? sit on the step humming and chatting to herself.
You get to a point where you want to do something to make an impression.

Sounds to me like you have a very smart cookie. She knows she’s done something wrong, she probably knew when she first thought of it and climbed up to get it, but understands there is no point in disputing the fact as she was caught red handed. I had a sister like that. It sounds like she is trying to earn stickers again and next week, if she earns that £5, she will understand the value when she buys the pj’s.

Am at the conditionality here - the whole rewards and punishments thing for something which isn't a child setting out to cause upset for family, but experimenting with something fascinating.

Me, I'd be finding cool things to do with cheapo nail varnish WITH the child - painting nails, stopping ladders in old tights, making watertight little paper cups for water pouring games, painting pictures on paper, whatever you can think of. And locking the nail varnish away in a very hidden place so that use of it is always supervised.

If there's something the parent of a four-year old wants that four-year old not to use on their own, it's really up to the parent to find a safe and secure hiding place for in between painting sessions. In the same category as sewing scissors and bleach, perhaps.

I totally agree, onward.

How about completely abandoning the stickers/conditional pocket money/rewards/punishment thing? You might just be amazed at the difference.

And even if you cannot bring yourself to throw it completely to the wind, please consider dropping it for meals. Young children will not willingly starve themselves, but bribing her where food is concerned can lead to a very unhealthy relationship with food.

seredippity's post illustrates my point that such a system does not work, so you end up upping the ante and creating resentment in the child. Is that the sort of relationship you really want with your daughter?

I would just keep praising good behaviour, ignore the bad as much as possible. Sounds like she is doing well with the sticker charts, cleaning up, finishing her food etc.

I shouted at my dd for a few things when she was 4 but to be honest if she had spilt lots of nail varnish I would think it was my fault for not supervising her!

(Sorry not blaming you, just saying how I would feel!)

can i just add that sometimes it seems like young children will willingly starve themselves. my dd1 has a problem with eating even from birth she didnt take as much milk as she should have and as a result has never grew properly

when she was older (at first was told this would change when she was weaned properly but it just got worse)the doc told me that she should have set meal and snack times (she already did) and that i shouldnt fuss just take meals away after a certain period of time i did this and she did not eat for three days not a single thing!!!

micci, I am sorry to hear that - still I would be reluctant to use star charts as the way to sort it out.

I agree with aviatrix re. no star charts for eating.

Also, I don't believe stars won should be crossed out. The behaviour which earned the star didn't disappear. If bad behaviour subsequently happens, just leave a blank space for that period of time.

Star charts are generally used to target one specific behaviour - not a whole life, which is what it must feel like to the OP's dd. Again, I feel, like aviatrix, that it would be worth trying to do without it.

IMO at 4yrs, a child should only be expected to do one or two little chores per day e.g. laying the table. But that should be just their contribution to the family running smoothly, not paid for.

£5 is too much. If she is being paid £5 at age 4, what on earth will she need to get by the time she is 8 or 12?

Sorry to sound so negative. I should go to bed, I'm getting grumpy.

wow, what an odd life, the constant pursuit of stickers...

The whole point of sticker charts is that they're given for good behaviour over a set period of time, like an hour or two hours.

The sticker is rewarded or not depending on wether they've been good or not during that time.. not for eating all your food or helping mummy..etc.

You need to split it.. stickers for good behaviour, money for jobs well done.

Then not only will she see a reward for being good - her end of week treat, but also be learning the value of money.

Agree with aitchtwociao, what's wrong with just expecting good behaviour and a bit of help and not having to be rewarded for everything. If there's a specific problem, perhaps it's a good idea, but if you've got good discipline and a good relationship in the first place I don't see the point of them. They seem to be a national obsession at the moment.

i think it's a bit cruel, tbh. don't get me wrong, dd is moving towards potty training at the moment and we are making a huge fuss of her when she asks to go to the loo, but i just can't imagine how you could keep up that level of approval and delight on a long-term basis. and if you can't, then it's just a punishment chart imo.

Well sorry none of you agree with my sticker chart for remaining at the tale during a family dinner and eating the food on her plate. Also about loosing stickers for bad behaviour.

We have been working this way since she turned 4 and it has improved her behaviour greatly.

As I pointed out in the OP I did not want to punish her because I was looking forward to praising her. However I fail to see how I could have said - naughty girl for ruining a whole carpet - you know (and she does know) nail varnish doesnt come out. Then take her down stairs and hand over a £5 note! Am that no one else seems to think the same way.

Serendipity hit the nail on the head, with the fact the punishment seemed to have no initial impact.

FWIW I have 2 bottle of nail varnish, as a rule I dont wear make up or nail varnish much. And DD had only gone after it as we had been at friends during the afternoon, who's 6yr old DD has play make up - which I personally dont agree with, and it had reminded her that mummy has some.

I feel confident in my DD's ability to understand her punishment and she is a lovely caring little girl. So I am not about to change something that works for us.

but why do you want her to clear her plate, though? i thought that sort of thing was majorly frowned-upon these days. certainly i frown upon it, i think my parents' insistence that i finish my dinner every night set down patterns that have been immensely hard, nay impossible, to break.

I don't expect mine to clear their plates, but I do expect them to stay at the table until everyone's finished. And that's a given - they don't get rewarded for what I think of as "baseline" good behaviour.

They do get rewarded for above and beyond the call of duty good behaviour - like the time a rather strange friend of ours turned up for dinner with a unexpected shaven head and handle bar moustache and they said good evening nicely and didn't giggle!

yep, seeker. did you see child of our time the other week? some kids were getting into the car and their dad kissed them goodbye and said 'remember your manners'. i thought that was lovely, my folks used to say that to me when i was wee, and i'm resurrecting it for dd. remember your manners, it's so sweet....

slightly off the subject, Lowfat - why don't you wear make up etc as a rule? I am covered in the stuff to put the bins out...

I was awful as a child and occasionally got a smack from Mum, I used to look her in the eye and say "That didn't hurt" and got another one. They both hurt but after the second smack I could rarely not cry after the second. It doesn't mean that the first didn't hurt, cause I can tell ya my Mum knew how to smack - I would wind her up (not in the teasing sense, I just would go) more than being naughty so when she smacked she was really wound up. Tears don't have to follow punishment.

Please note, I don't want to go into the ins and outs of smacking, I'm not posting to get into it.

I could carry on about my experiences of punishment and reward, they're a big issue for me now and have caused certain relationships in my life to be in irrevocable disrepair. But I'm not and I'm not going to comment on the rest of the thread because it's one where it obviously isn't wanted.

poor girl

"Well sorry none of you agree with my sticker chart for remaining at the tale during a family dinner and eating the food on her plate. Also about loosing stickers for bad behaviour."

As others have said, rewarding her for eating everything on her plate is not a good idea. It teaches her to over-ride her full feeling, which can cause problems when she's older if she doesn't know when to stop.

I don't like the sticker chart idea in the first place but really can't see the logic behind removing stickers you earned. A bit like your boss at work taking part of your wage off you because he didn't like your work in the last hour of the week.

"We have been working this way since she turned 4 and it has improved her behaviour greatly."

Short term maybe. But I think you might be storing up problems for later.

"However I fail to see how I could have said - naughty girl for ruining a whole carpet - you know (and she does know) nail varnish doesnt come out. Then take her down stairs and hand over a £5 note!"

While I'm sure she does know, sometimes with young children they have to be constantly reminded until they get older and understand more.
I don't think anybody is saying that immediately after pointing out that nailvarnish on the carpet wasn't a good idea you should give her £5. The £5 was for her stickers, surely, and could have been given at a later time.

Serendipity hit the nail on the head, with the fact the punishment seemed to have no initial impact.

I think tinkerbelle's mum answered that one. You don't have to reduce a child to tears for them to understand that they had done something you didn't like.

And DD had only gone after it as we had been at friends during the afternoon, who's 6yr old DD has play make up - which I personally dont agree with, and it had reminded her that mummy has some.

Well there you are, then. Possibly all other thoughts left her head and she just made the connection with the play make-up and your nailvarnish.

I feel confident in my DD's ability to understand her punishment and she is a lovely caring little girl. So I am not about to change something that works for us.

I do think that it might be worth you having a read through
Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn.
I'm trying to be helpful here as you might find some ideas in the book which you might find better for you and your dd in the long-term.

juuule you said everything there that I wantd to say, I second the reading recommendation lowfat, it really will help

Just read that back - didn't mean to sound preachy just thought I might make a couple of suggestions that might make life a bit more comfortable for you and your dd.

TBH I am more than happy with the way things have turned out since Sunday morning.

It is really hard to put the whole details of what goes on in a household on a post, to give insight in to events etc..

And I am not going to justify everything I do or give the reasons behind it, but as said it works for us.

Will give the book a look though...

d'oh, just read my post back:

They both hurt but after the second smack I could rarely not cry after the second.

(not in the teasing sense, I just would go on)