Hi all - sorry, this might be a long one.

I have a 14 week old ds2, he was born quite big but has never been a huge feeder. For medical reasons, I'm sadly unable to breastfeed so he has been on the bottle from day one.

Anyway, for over a month now he is a nightmare when he feeds. Sometimes he just squirms and writhes around crying and going red; at other times he flips his head from side to side after just a few sucks and sometimes he makes a funny low groaning sound whilst he's sucking, takes about an ounce and then stops, crying.

HOWEVER, this doesn't happen with every feed. He feeds fine during his nightfeed (around 4am) as he is half asleep and it seems to be instinctual then.
Also, recently, my DP and I have found that if we cover his eyes with a blanket or similar and sit him in his bouncy chair rather than in our arms then he will feed a lot better. ! Basically, shutting out almost any outside stimulus.

I just don't get it. I don't think it's anything like reflux or lactose intolerance etc because when he's NOT feeding he's perfectly happy. Also, why would he feed okay at night if this was the case?

I'm also finding it really tough emotionally. Firstly, feeding is supposed to be a happy bonding time for mother and child but now I just dread every feed because I know it's going to be a horrible drawn out process and he doesn't seem to like being fed in my arms. Secondly, I have a 2 year old who obviously finds it tough that each feed takes at least an hour and involves an often crying baby and a very stressed mum.

I've seen my GP who was hopeless, didn't know what it might be. I saw a paed at a drop-in clinic who didn't really seem to know what it might be either but tentatively suggested silent reflux but I really don't think this is it as surely with reflux my baby would be uncomfortable AFTER the feed as well as during...?

Any ideas? It's really starting to get me down and I feel like I'm not coping very well with it. Reduces me to tears on countless of occasions.

Would love to hear what some of you think the problem might be. Have any of you experienced anything remotely similar?

I don't know but it sounds like you are doing all the right things.

I had terrible trouble feeding both of mine (reflux, allergies) and I know what you mean about the bonding. It was painful, awful and I felt like I was hurting both of them and I certainly never felt that close, bonding feeling either. But I wanted to reassure you that it made no difference to my relationship in the end but it DID get me down. I don't know how you stop it getting you down...I think you have to be very strong and share the feeds with dp as much as you can.

Have you tried different flow teats and bottles?

How about a cranial osteopath?

I meant the bonding feeling while feeding iyswim

Where is he during the night feed? Still in his cot, laying down, or in your dhs/your arms?

Have you tried to go and feed him alone in a darkened room in the daytime?

not sure but if its only when feeding it may be a problem with the teat, perhaps coming out to fast?

I started to have problems bottle feeding my ds from about that age, but not quite as bad as yours.

With mine its because he is to interested in everything else, sometimes he trying to watch the telly, other times he is pushing the bottle out just because he wants to sit up for a bit. If my dh feeds there are times if i talk while he is doing it my ds just wants to turn and look at me.

Could this be anything to do with it with yours. Far more interested in everything else, hence why the night feed goes fine???

hi - foxinsocks (thanks for kind words btw) and orangehead - I don't think it's anything to do with teat as have tried slower, faster ones - different shapes, different bottles.

Moondog: He saw a cranial osteopath a couple of times, but that was before these problems started so perhaps I'll book another appointment.

QS, during night feed he is in his bedroom, nightlight on, in my or DP's arms. And yes, I've done darkened room during daytime which has helped but it's totally impractical and mostly impossible because I have 2 yo DS1 with me; plus it would just confine me to the house 24/7 which would be miserable!

Please keep coming with your suggestions/advice. thank you. MM

DD used to squirm around and go very red in the face and get herself all distressed. I nearly dropped her a few times - it was almost like she was trying to throw herself out of my arms.

Both the grans and older women all said the classic 'wind' and I thought they were talking daft oldfashioned nonsense. In the end, out of desperation, I gave her gripe water and it made loads of difference.

Hate to admit it, but on that occasion the old fashioned biddies were right!

Hmmm?????
What's his routine? When does he feed etc?

didsnbump, when did your ds grow out of that phase?

Hi themoon66, I use infacol before every feed. But maybe I should try gripe water. However, I don't think it is wind because if it was, why would covering his eyes with a blanket help? Still, I'm willing to try everything/anything - am desperate to improve the situation.

Thomcat, he is in a pretty good routine. Takes decent daytime naps, feeds every 4 hours (although not if he's had a bad feed previously as he gets hungry sooner), - basically, he's not overtired or overhungry/not hungry enough as he can be like this right after a 2 hour nap... Is that what you were getting at? What do you think? Any ideas?

distractible baby

This is for breastfed babies really but I don't see why it shouldn't apply to bottle fed babies too...

Yes that was what I was getting at. Hmmmmm ?????

I can't think of anything you are not already trying.

All I want to say for now is - please, please don't let it get you down. The new baby phase is so teeny tiny, nothing really lasts that long. I know it doesn't feel like it now, but it really won't last long and he'll suddenly be cool with it all.

I was going out of my mind when DD3 was feeding every 2 hours 24 hours a day every day. It felt awful, I was shattered and cranky and miserable etc etc. But she's 7 months now and I can't remember what that part of her life was like already.

I hope you get through this asap.

TC x

He is 17 weeks now, and to be honest can still be like it sometimes. Now he is teething though so its even worse, i gave up on one bottle earlier and tried him on it again 45 mins later and he then finished it off.

I did a baby massage course for 5 weeks which ended this week. It started at his feed time, so used to take his bottle and feed him while everyone got going, on a couple of occasions he was that difficult to feed for being noisy, by the time he had done he dint get a massage as they had finished......

I think if they are hungry enough they will take it reguardless of whats going on around them. But if not try going somewhere quiet, or turning the tv off etc and see if it helps.

I still have to take my 7 month old to a quiet room to feed her. She really only feeds really well when she's tired, so she'll feed then fall asleep in my arms. I struggle with her 3pm feed as she wants something but isn't tired so she keeps breaking off and getting all annoyed and distracted etc. So I've taken to sitting her up and not lying her down for that feed. Quite tricky when your breastfeeding! Can you just get a snuggle taggie blanket and let him cover his face every feed, or let him have a muslin over his head at every feed if that works?

My ds was very much like this from about 12 weeks - when he woke needing a feed through the night he would feed canny but through the day he was a nightmare - 1oz - 3oz and then a full on radge, some days he would hardly have any milk - i started keeping a chart and it turned out he would have more than i thought which helped ease my stress though i became chart obsessed! If i left longer between feeds instead of trying to instill a routine this helped . I used to get so stressed about it but really the phase soon passses and your soon into weaning etc. I just think my ds didnt like milk a great deal - even now he wont drink any milk through the day and will only have milk at bedtime - food wise he is an animal .

didsnbump, Thomcat, and claireybee - thanks all for your suggestions and reassurance etc.
claireybee - that definitely could be it - although sometimes it seems to be more physical than mere distractibility, but it definitely seems to ring most true of all the theories so far.

didsnbump, Thomcat - it's so wearing isn't it? No two feeds are ever the same. I'm never quite sure what I'm going to get. Looks like this could go on for a while then...?

Thomcat, you have other children - what do they do whilst you're feeding DD3?

Nappyzone, sounds v familiar. Actually think when he is finally weaned on to solids (not for a while yet though, sadly) it might make all the difference. Like your ds, he just doesn't seem that into milk either. Strange. Complete opposite to my DS1 who was such a guzzler I started to worry that he fed too quickly and was overfeeding. Complete opposites!

I wonded if you had another - thats why i was so frustrated with ds as dd guzzled like a dream and was completely diff as a baby. She slipped into a simple clockwork 3hrly-4hrly feed system - ds would go 4-5 if i let him. I was also trying to get himt to sleep thru earlier by filling him through the day as per some barmy routine i read. He had other ideas........ I debated weaning earlier but held out and just learned to chill out and be led by him more. Good luck x

Mabel - yes it is wearing but it does get better. she's 7 months now and on solids and it's only the 3pm feed that is tricky now.

How does it work for me? - well - The first thing in the morning feed - I bring her in with me and lay down and feed her - no problems as she is v hungry after a night without.

Then we all have breakfast and do school run.

Come back and she has a 10am feed. I have finally got it through to DD2 (who is 2yrs old) that she musn't come into nursery so I give her a drink and a biscuit, put cbeebies on and even if she does come up she'll just stand on the landing now bless her. Then DD3 goes down for a sleep and DD2 knows she has my undivided attention.

Then lunch at 12-1ish, no milk just solids.

3pm - well we know this is tricky but we get through it and I just keep offering the breast and she gets enough I guess. I do a bit before and a bit after going to pick DD1 up from school.

Then 5pm is tea and I don't give her any milk

Then 6pm I take girls up, baths, put DD1 & 2 on my bed with milk and cbeebies and go off fand feed DD3 in nursery by 6.45 ish so that she is fed and asleep before cbeebies ends and then I can read girls a story and put them down for the night.

Don't be too hasty to discount silent reflux. The baby I used to look after suddenly started screaming and refusing feeds, although she was never a great feeder to start with. Her parents were on holiday and it was the week from hell as she just got so distressed at each feed. Took her to the local GP who said she was fine but to monitor her weight. In between feeds she was absolutely fine, happy and smiley and sleeping through the night from 6.30pm to 7am but I dreaded every feed. Mum came back from her holiday and managed one day of it before whipping her up to London for a private diagnosis. The paediatricain diagnosed silent reflux and prescribed Cow and Gate Pepti junior formula and ranitidine. It made such a huge difference and watching her drink a bottle without all the tears and discomfort was such a relief. She was about 13weeks when she got it.

Hi Ebb - thanks for your post. The only reason I don't think it is silent reflux is because he feeds fine in the night when he wakes for a feed, which wouldn't happen, would it, if it was reflux?
But I'm definitely going back to my GP with a note from the paediatrician I saw, who said I should be prescribed Infamil AR (anti-reflux) milk for ds2 if symptoms continue.

As an aside, I was quite about the mum going off on holiday when baby was just 13 weeks. Wow. Maybe I'm just jealous...!

Hhmm the nightfeed is interesting but with my little charge there was always one feed she would take at some stage. I just assume she was so hungry she put up with any discomfort!!! It's a really horrible experience when baby doesn't want to feed. I have been a nanny for 15 years and never had any problems before so it really wound me up. I kept thinking I was going to hand back an anorexic bag of bones. Luckily she had a decent reserve of puppy fat to fall back on.
As for Mum going on holiday, they went skiing and it was too cold for a baby. Besides I didn't want to fly as I was pregnant and didn't fancy going into premature labour in Switzerland! I've been with the family for 3 years so it's good they can go and enjoy themselves knowing I will take good care of their children. Mind you, one family I worked for went on holiday to SA for 2 weeks when baby was only 4months old. No phone contact, I'd only been in the job 7weeks and as I'd replied to an ad in Horse and Hound, they hadn't checked references or anything...... Lucky I'm good.

Ebb - Stunned by that story about the mum going off to SA and not even calling to check on baby.

Anyway, I've just had another terrible day with my ds2 on the feeding front. We were both reduced to tears tonight trying to get his last feed of the day down him. Eventually I had to get my DP to take over as I was just getting too upset by ds2's obvious discomfort. I think it's more than just being a distractible baby - the covering the eyes thing did not work at all today (gutted about that as thought I'd found the solution). So I'm thinking more and more it might be silent reflux. But who knows. Will call doctors first thing tomorrow morning for an appointment.

But if anyone out there is reading this thread for the first time and this symptoms ring a bell for them, please do let me know.

thanks!
MM x

Sometimes the term colic can be used for babies whose discomfort comes from over-stimulation from the outside world. My ds was a very sensitive baby. I breastfed him, but I remember that he would quite often get himself in a state and would have trouble feeding. Once, he got tonsilitus and wouldn't feed at all for a week - I had to express and spoon feed him - it was horrible.

It's just a vague theory, but I'd suggest a couple of things. Firstly - and it sounds a bit mental - white noise used to calm ds down and settle him into a feed - we used to switch on the hoover or hair dryer quite near him - it was like pressing a relax button. Once he'd settled into the feed, he was okay.
The other thing is that maybe he's getting all tense and giving himself wind, and then associating feeding with pain and therefore getting himself all tense. You know how if you eat stressed it gives you tummy ache? The difficulty is breaking the cycle. Maybe try making the feed as relaxing as possible - relaxing music, darkened room... It's a tricky one. I hope you get it sorted.

Could it be that he's genuinely not hungry at those times or that the milk is at 'the wrong temperature' (according to him!).

A few of us breastfeeding found our LOs doing exactly as you describe - really curious and then after a small number of weeks it just stopped. lots of mums lost heart and went over to the bottle but it just seemed to be something in relation to their age / development.

How many feeds in 24 hours are stress free for him and how much is he taking?

Hi MabelMay, was wondering if you had considered taking your lo to a cranial osteopath or chiropractor. A chiropractor worked wonders for our DS2 who had a jammed neck from a very quick labour which ended in a ventouse delivery - we had the opposite problem to you as he was gulping feeds down too quickly and giving himself tummy ache as the sucking action was relieving the pain in his neck , but 3 treatments in and he was like a different baby. Just an idea but maybe your DS is in discomfort in the feeding position and this is something a cranial osteopath or chiropractor could help with. If you do go down this route try to find one that specialises in babies. HTH

Hi MabelMay - what can I say - I had exactly the same problem - I was also in tears at nearly every feed - its so hard - I have no idea what got into him - there is light at the end of the tunnel - I started him on solids at 18 weeks, after 6 weeks of hell, just to give it a go and he loves it - I don't know why but now his milk feeds are so much easier now he knows he is getting some solid stuff too - just pureed fruit and veg. Every now and again he goes nuts on me at feed time but life is much better. It used to be a major trauma at every feed other than the night feeds and the 7am feed. I know lots of people wouldn't start solids that early but it has worked for us. I also feed him in a chair and he definitely prefers that to be held. One trick that sometimes worked was to quickly put something in his mouth like bonjela and then stuff the bottle in - sort of distracts them and then you are in - but again that only worked for a bit. I do sympathise and understand totally how you feel - its horrible to see them so upset.

Thanks to all the latest posts.

Phlossie - thanks. Actually, we do use white noise on occasions but it's very hit and miss as to whether that works with his feeds. He's completely erratic.

thankyouandgoodnight - he is definitely hungry for most of the feeds. I've tried leaving an extra long gap in the hope that he'd just wolf milk down but it made no difference! A complete mystery. The only feed that is guaranteed stress-free is the feed he has in the night (usually around 3 in the morning). He has 4 other feeds during the day. Sometimes more if he is feeding particularly badly and i need to top him up.

firststeps - am seeing cranial osteopath friday morning. thanks for the suggestion. I'm going to try anything!

broms - wow that sounds exactly like my ds2. I don't suppose you ever discovered what was wrong? Did you ever get him looked at by a doctor? I've been thinking, as you say, that solids could be the answer. Obviously not yet, but I think they might improve the situation as they did for you - and so I don't think I'm going to wait until 6 months to wean him - not if he's still like this in a few weeks time. It's comforting to know that it might get better. Find it so upsetting. thank you.

Broms, sorry I'm going to fire a few more questions at you -

how much would you manage to get down your ds at each feed? Would you keep going and going until he'd had most of it? Or would you just give up when it got too much? Did he start waking more at night because he wasn't having enough during the day? Did you think it was a physical problem he was having (ie something like silent reflux), or more emotional (ie highly distractible)?

I'll try your bonjela trick!

MM, just a quick post, as I'm supposed to be decorating . This does sound quite similar to my DS, except that my DS threw up as well most (but not all) of the time. He had reflux and was really uncomfortable feeding, but as others have said, every now and then, he would just down his feed because he needed the food. So, could be your LO has silent reflux. Also, turns out now he is intolerant to dairy and egg and apparently dairy intolerances are often linked with reflux. So, may well be getting that anti-reflux formula from your GP and giving it a try.
Also, as others have said, he did grow out of it (by 8 months) and it does fade into a distant memory - I know that doesn't help much now and I hope the other advice helps.

When my ds was born he wouldn't feed with me holding him in a "comfy" position but if i held him away from me holding his hed he fed fine he is 11 weeks now and still doing it at times but he is now sleeping from 8pm right through to 7 so feeding a bit better

I do think it could be reflux.

My DD had silent reflux and the only bottle that ever went without a problem to begin with was the bedtime bottle. The sleepier she was the easier she was to feed. Daytime feeds were a total nightmare, especially the 3pm. She would scream and arch her back and get really very upset. We went on to Infant Gaviscon from the doctor and by November when she was 7 months I thought it had gone so I stopped. Big Mistake!

How wrong???? Between Xmas and the end of January she vommitted almost every night only to then take a whole bottle afterwards. Weaning was a total nightmare and the whole experience was horrible for all of us.

During this time I could not hold her to feed her. If I so much as touched her back she would vomit. This, according to the Cranial Osteo was because her diaphragm (spell?) was so tight it was a reflex. I laid her on a pillow, as upright as possible to try to stop her from choking. And I still do to this day although she now likes to hold the bottle herself.

So, finally got a Doc referral to a Paed Consol in February and they diagnosed Reflux. During this two month time she gained no weight has her backbone was hideously visable. She was put on Zantac and Gaviscon. In one day she was a changed child. It was amazing, she started to gain weight and the crying and vomiting went.

She is still a poor eater and if she has so much as a cold or sniffle she stops food and just has milk. She is now a year and just lovely. Also I know the trigger foods now, too much yogurt or pre-biotic type cereals will give her terrible diarrheoa, with this comes reflux as her whole system is out of synche again and the vomiting starts.

So, I really feel for you. It is horrible. You know they are hungry but the burning in the back of their throat is just too much. I used to sing and sing to her while she fed to stop her coming off the bottle. Once she was off the burning would start and she would not take any more. It is sole destroying but there is treatment that can help. Good luck xx

Just read your thread again MabelMay and I can say that on a bottle that went down fine, DD was fine. No discomfort or crying afterwards.

I also found cutting out stimuli helped, the more stressed the baby the worse the reflux.

Just my theory but I would really push for a referral, is he gaining weight OK or not? If you can prove he is not gaining or in gaining very slowly then that is the key criteria for a paed referral.

I feel for you I really do, I would end up crying everyday, I just wanted DD to be happy.

Thats it, I am done interferring!

Hi MabelMay - I did perservere with him at every feed as I was so worried about him not eating anything - eventually he would take between 4-7oz. But poor boy I think he was so tired after all the screaming there was no other option for him. I took him to the doctor gaviscon was given - that helps with keeping it down but obviously not with the initial problem of crying and squirming which is the main problem. Took him to a cranial osteopath - he said nothing wrong - I took him again as I was so worried - and only thing he suggested was feeding upright, changing the milk, rubbing something on his gums in case it was the bottle hurting his mouth. the 11pm feed was always ok so he did sleep through til 7am however he has never seemed interested in milk and never screamed for it because he was hungry! just screamed when it came near him! someone else suggested that it was just habit for him to scream like that as he always ended up taking the milk - she said try and break the cycle by doing something completely different ie bonjela trick. I swear by solids for mine - give it a go when you feel ready. good luck.

Hi MabelMay - hope the cranial osteopath is able to help - let me know how you get on

Thanks everyone for latest posts and advice. I went to my (useless) GP yesterday who wouldn't give me prescription for anti-reflux milk because a) she'd never heard of it [she often seems quite clueless] and b) my ds2 is not losing weight, altho he IS falling off his centile more and more. so that was frustrating. However, he is on Gaviscon now, altho so far (after 4 feeds or feed attempts) it doesn't seem to have made much of a difference; but I'll see how it is in a couple of days.

firststeps, cranial odteopath is coming friday morning. will let you know if it does that trick. here's hoping (very optimistically)!

MM x

Just skimmed thread so sorry if this had been said what formula are you using?

DD1 had sma gold and was fine, however, dd2 was like your ds on sma swapped her to aptamil and after 4 days she'd take at least 75% of eqach feed fairly fuss free

eandh, he IS on aptamil.

maybe i should swap him to sma!!
funnily enough i was thinking of trying him on a different formula so went out this morning and bought cow & gate. will try that. so does it take a few days for the new formula to take effect?

Hello,

If MabelMay is out there, I'd be very interested to know if your problems have been resolved. I'm going through exactly the same and have a demanding/jealous 2 year old also. I'm tearing my hair out and am so down about it.

Hello,havent read all of the responses - am meant to be making tea!

My little girl is 6 and a bit months. From week 2 she was a little bit like this (except at night feeds) and reflux was diagnosed. Silent reflux as she was rarely sick.She was very wriggly feeding but always wanting to feed, so a bit different. Lots of crying but no real pattern to it.

She was put on gaviscon but it didnt really help.

At 4 months I tried colief with some success, but this wore off after 2 weeks. It was as though she became immune to any positive effects.

At 5 and a bit months i weaned her with big big improvements (less milk). Now she is back on the gaviscon and she is a star.

Know its a bit jumbled, but to just to give you some hope really. I would say it took 5 months for my little girls tummy to mature. Now she is not a crying baby (unless tired or not having attn paid!!)

Try the colief? And perserve with gaviscon, its very much trial and error (for us anyway)

Hi Bobsi - I went through exactly the same thing with my DD who is now 6mths from when she was about 12 weeks. I also had a demanding 2 yr old too.

Feeding DD was like feeding a stiff plank of wood IYSWIM. But she would feed fine at night too.

A few things helped me.

Get a bag of cheap toys for your 2 yr old and only get them out when you feed LO it will distract them hopefully.Or failing that use Cbeebies!!

I changed bottles from avent to boots own ones which did help. Maybe try different flow teats too.

I fed my DD in the buggy with hood pulled down facing me and that made a BIG difference as she didn't have anything to fight against IYSWIM and all she could see was my face and not be distracted by noise/older kids.

I also changed formula from SMA to cow & gate and that really helped too.

My DD is still not the easiest to feed and I think she actually doesn't like milk much as she is 27 wks and has tasted solids

Good luck and let us know how you get on!!

MabelMay, Bobsi etc,

My first time posting but this is exactly what I've been going through with my four month old - feeding times have been a battle since day 1, and it totally gets you down. Have been looking stuff up constantly to try find a solution. Having read various bits and bobs on mumsnet, I decided my baby girl could have silent reflux. She hasn't been losing weight, just dropping down through the centiles since she was born. Was told by health visitors to take her to the doctors recently because of it, and the doc was just about to refer her to a consultant when I said I felt it could be silent reflux. He decided instead to put her on a course of infant gaviscon for a month and then we'd see what happened. The gaviscon seemed to work for the first 4 or 5 days, and feeding times were fight-free and she started taking plenty. But then it all started again.

While trawling mumsnet forums again I found a topic on feeding difficulties and one mum mentioned that her baby (who from her description could be a carbon copy of mine) could only be fed lying down flat. Though this goes against anything I'd read about reflux babies, I gave it a go three days ago and you would not believe the difference. During the day I feed her in her pram which has a very very slight incline, and for her first and last feeds she's just lying on my bed. She's now taking the proper amount of formula per day (oh - I switched to formula at 6 weeks because breastfeeding her was horrendous too) and she's not in the least bit distressed when I go to feed her. It has made a world of difference.

So, with apologies for my big rambling post, I'd suggest you give it a go. May not work, but if you're like me, I'd have tried anything!

Thanks everyone for the responses, it's good to know others have been through the same. I love the idea about bag of toys that only come out when feeding - will definitely put that into practice.
Ds has been a dream baby until last Monday. He's never taken as much milk as he should but was developing well on 24 - 28 oz a day. But since last week he's fussed massively at one or two feeds a day and subsequently he only gained 2oz in weight last wk. The trouble is he's not crying or upset, he's a normal baby but just crys/fusses when I try and put the bottle in his mouth, he pushes it out like it's hurting him, it can go on for an hour sometimes before I give up - sometimes he'll take it and sometimes he won't. He's constantly shoving his fist in his mouth and has flushed cheeks - could it be teething? He's 12 wks.
Every time I feed him I get sooo stressed and end up in tears which is no good for me, baby or toddler. Took him to Doctors last wk but she was more concerned about me and wants to see me again this week. She's probably going to treat me for PND but I'm only like this when ds isn't feeding. It's so frustrating not knowing what's causing it and whether it'll get any better or not.
I've changed bottle teats and I'm going to try the lying flat thing.

Hi Bobsi

It does get better!!

My DD is still not easy to feed and am having the new problem of trying to get any milk into her at all now. She is small but not worryingly so. But she does like her solids and took to them very well.

Also there were some weeks when she was small that she only put on 2/3 ozs in a week but it did normally coincide with her learning to do something new ie put hand/toes in mouth or rolling over etc. So don't know if that could be the same for you??