What would you do? I am sitting in the study because my darling DS1 is, an hour and forty minutes after first putting him in bed, shouting for me, banging on his door, waking up DS2(5mths), generally being a nuisance.

My tactics of being stern, angry, firm, not talking to him, just putting him back in bed, are just being met with laughter and smiles..... ...
What do I dooooooo???? Need advice, because at the moment I feel angry and shouty and it will not help!!!

I have resorted to putting 5mth old on my bed so he at least is in a quiet-ish room. This has been getting gradually worse over the last couple of weeks, I suppose really since it started being light at 7pm..... heeeellllpppp.....

Is he actually tired? Have you tried blackout blinds? I close all ours while DS is in bath with DH so when he gets out he thinks it's dark!

an hour and 40 minutes?
so you put him to bed at 6pm?
maybe it is too early now that the evenings are lighter and perhaps he can hear people having BH fun outside?

oops just read the thread title, his bedtime is 6pm then
I guess just say no, firmly and taing him back repeatedly is all you can do I'm afriad

no. If you see the first sentence it says - it's 8.40 here.... I'm in Holland, so 7pm.

we used to say the 1st time 'no, it's bedtime', the next time ' bedtime' and carry back to bed, the times after that just carry straight back to bed, no eye contact etc
Some people use stairgates at the door but I always thought that would involve too much noise with banging etc

does he still nap?

It's just so draining. I'm not used to it!!

And from 7 til whenever he finally gives in, it's the constant 'I need a poo', 'I've done a poo in my nappy' (!!@&*£&£££"%!), 'I need cold milk', 'I need warm milk', 'I need my blanket' etc etc etc.... I have learned to ensure he all those things sorted and out of the way before I leave him, but still he manages to come up with something! It has got to the point that he is getting into bed with a blanket, two teddies, two beakers of milk, a hot water bottle(!)....

Yes, he does nap.

I thought that maybe we could get rid of the nap, and yes, I see what you're thinking, make him more tired at night.... but, the problem is, he gets to about 4pm and is completely zonked and cannot make it any later, no matter what I do. I'll try and keep him occupied, or let him just watch tellie for a bit til tea time, but then he just falls asleep, almost mid sentence!! And if I try and wake him up after his 1.5hrs, he is unbelievably tetchy.

He must be in the interim phase. Does/Does not need a nap,.....

I guess that would then be a follow up question. How do I get rid of his nap?, because like posie suggests, this is most likely what is affecting his going to bed routine.....

oh that is a horrible stage
does he drop off in the car , if yes maybe take him for a drive after lunch so the nap is brought forward
you've probably already tried that though

I could try the driving thing, it would work. But, I'd have to do that at about 11am. So, rather than his usual nap time of about 12pm til 1.30pm, it would all be an hour earlier, and perhaps he'd be a little more tired by 7pm.

Him falling asleep at 4pm is when I am really, really trying to keep him up all day, and then i definitely do not let him nap longer than half an hour. The next 2 are AWFUL til bedtime, he's such a grumpbag, but better that than him being even more full of beans than currently!

oooohh...... it's just gone quiet in there..... good sign. Right, my shoulders can relax now and I can stio clenching my jaw(!)

stio stop!

yes horrible. ds is just 3 and does not have naps while with childminder (4 days a week) and does when he is with me.

he is just being taken away for bedtime by dh having had a 2 hour nap at lunchtime. cannot think how we would have managed without but it does make him do to sleep so late. cm has exciting other children and activities so can get him past the nap quite easily, i just collect an exhausted little thing. that is rather refreshing as he has always been very late to sleep.

can you try that, half the week nap, half no nap?

Well, it's a little similar to you Fishie here, in that he has kindergarten three times a week, and twice it starts at 12.45, til 3.30, so on those days he'll not have the lunchtime nap. But, that tends to be when he then falls asleep almost standing up by late afternoon.....

Saying that, he is most definitely now asleep. Completely quiet in there. Maybe I can actually go keep my DH company for a bit....

Okay, next question. How the hell do I transport the sleeping 5 month old off my bed into his own cot without waking him??????

when we are going to parents for sunday lunch or similar we drive around a bit at 11am to induce a short kip. can you do that before dropping off at kindergarten? hopefully he will be happy to get there and not grumpy from short sleep.

also having a shower wakes ds up a bit when he comes home with no nap. i just take him in with me.

Maybe make his nap time just one hour- to ensure he is WELL tired? (but hopefully not too horrible in that "misery hour" before bedtime?)

Also I'd cut out the "I need drinks" lark , it is just another form of delaying. Give him a last drink of water when he brushes his teeth, & say firmly "no more, it's bedtime" Let him choose which cuddlies/blankets he wants (surely he doesn't need a hottie??) but again say that is it.

Difficult I know but if you keep up the routine & don't vary it he'll soon realise you mean business & he'll give up out of boredom & relax so the natural tiredness will take over.

When my Ds1 was dropping his daytime naps I just brought everything forward a bit. So dinner, bath and bed was all just quite a bit earlier. Some nights he was even in bed at 5.30pm!!! But he was so tired he went off really easily. It does mean some early starts in the morning as he would rarely sleep past 6am if he'd gone to bed so early but with a 5 month old I doubt you are having many lie ins anyway . I does mean you get some great long evenings without DS1 running around. Then as he gets more used to being without a nap you can stretch his bed time back out again...

You could try to stay in his room and stop him from playing in his bed/making noises etc. I had to tell him off remind him regluarly at first that sleeping meant closing his eyes, stopping moving and keeping quiet but he would fall asleep within 20 min.
Worked really well with ds2 who had a similar 'problem'.

Thanks. Some great suggestions. I like the idea of putting DS1 to bed a bit earlier on the days he has not napped, at say, 11am or so.

I think that's what has to be done, a combination of all that's been suggested
1) force him to fall asleep at about 11 in the morning, perhaps with a drive in the car
2) stop indulging all his wims just before bed. I know why he does it, but sometimes he just seems easier to get whatever he wants so I can ship him back to bed quicker. But, MUST be harsher and stop him trying to push his limits
3) with no nap, put him to bed at 6pm rather than 7, and deal with the early mornings for a bit.

Thanks! Some good stuff there, hopefully it'll work and this pattern will be broken.

(yeah, I know, hot water bottle seems mad, doesn't it? I made the mistake of making one once about a month ago because his bed was cold and he was moaning and saying he wanted to get into my bed.... now he wants one every night!)

I would do a sticker chart which lasts for about 3 weeks (or else it costs a fortune!) and he gets a sticker for every night he goes to bed without a fuss. Give it to him in the morning with lots of praise. At the end of 3 weeks he gets a small present if he has enough stickers.

Make sure he is tired. Run him ragged round the park in the afternoon and stop his nap.

Oh this is encouraging - though i was the only one wanting to scream! Am sat at the top of the stairs, laptop on knee, having tried -

1. busy busy keeping him going all day
2. no nap or even 40 winks
3. big bubbly bath with lavender oil in to calm him at 6.30pm
4. stories, cuddle ,kiss, prayer "night nights" at 7.15pm
5. putting back to bed after his MUST DO A WEE ploy
6. firmly putting back, no talking
7. even firmer putting back no eye contact X 5
8. Warning of a smack next time

This is the SAME routine i have been having for about 3 months. Am so sick of it. NOTHING WORKS Even tried Horlicks but he hates it!

Let him fall asleep on the settee? Lie him down and tell him that if he gets up he will have to go to bed. Ours were usually asleep within the hour around that age and were quiet until they were. Sometimes they just don't like to be on their own. They grow out of it.

juuleI wasgoing to say that. It sounds like the delaying tactics are more to do with ensuring you keep coming back to him than necessarily delaying going to sleep and I think 3 is an age where this happens. I have always stayed with my DS until he drifts off and luckily it usually only takes a matter of minutes though I appreciate with a baby aswell that's not always so easy. Does he have a nightlight? Could you choose a special one together that might reassure him? Or what about recording some stories on to a tape and leaving that to play as he goes to sleep?

Sit with him while he falls asleep? Just read your book quietly or meditate or sing to him gently or whatever suits.

And I think it's more important to read our children's cues of tiredness or lack of tiredness than having a "bedtime"

I'm having the same problems with dd and it's been going on for a year or more so I really sympathise with you. We used to just ignore her and let her cry. Within a few days she'd be back to going to sleep quietly on her own, but now it wakes up her 8 month old brother so it's not an option. She doesn't have a set bed time as such but we normally put her up to bed at about 8pm. She normally messes about and calls us for various reasons like drinks, food, more stories etc. She can be doing this for hours (sometimes til 10:30pm regardless of when she went to bed) and it's really frustrating. Sorry I couldn't give you any advice. I'll be watching this thread with interest.

Last night things went much better. 5mth old was laid on our bed from the get-go. Not ideal, but he was not disturbed.
Books etc.... in 3yr old's bed, no distractions, had his milk, his cloth, his teddy all there.
When we'd finished reading, told him to lie down, close eyes etc... adn I stayed with him and made sure his eyes stayed closed. Held his hand.
He was quiet by 7.30, so much sooner

It was by no means a completely fuss free process, so still- Areas still to be improved on by me, and thus cut this down again -
don't get the second beaker of milk, don't indulge his in&out of bed yo-yo routine for even 15minutes, and when I say 'you get out of bed one more time, then the light goes straight off and I go downstairs', bloody mean it. Finally, must not let myself get all wound up inside and feel so furious.

I don't think I showed how tense I was inside, but still, there really is no reason to get so worked up- so I tell myself. Also, I just wonder how long this will have to go on for, because me and DH eat about 1/2hr after children in bed, therefore I (on weekdays cos don't work) cannot cook the dinner til 1/2 an hour later, and that's just annoying.
It'll mean DH has to cook, and I can see that getting tiring for him after a full day at the office.

That's great that he settled earlier
It will last as long as it lasts. We consider these things as being "that's the way things are at the moment" and then over time you realise things have changed and you are not needed as much.
As regards your dinner, can't you cook it earlier in the day and warm it up once the children are in bed? Crock pot meals, that sort of thing. Why do you have your meal after they've gone to bed? Would it be possible to eat earlier and include your 3yo?

When my DD2 was going through this at age 3 i used to save all my laundry/toys/clutter that needed putting away & pootle in & out of her room putting things away & repeating "bed-time now night night " if I left the room she'd shout for me.& I could tell her I was just putting stuff away in my room & then come back to hers before she'd got up & stay there -no chat. That way I stretched the time I was out of her room till she was used to me being around but not WITH her & gradually the natural tiredness took over. Bit of a palaver but it kept us both calm & got a boring job done so it worked for us!!

I would certainly consider doing more meals that can just be heated up once DS sorted and asleep. Of course, not the greatest as the summer approaches, but getting pieces of fish wrapped up to steam with herbs etc.... in the afternoon if pretty easy, that sort of thing. Have the pots peeled in water already, stuff diced and sliced. That I can definitely do.

I woudl definitely be reluctant to have dinner earlier. DH gets home at 6pmish, technically it could be done. But, he and I really enjoy and use 'our evening' for a quiet meal together, no tellie, we catch up, talk, behave like a couple. I don't want to lose that as I think it's very important that we still have a relationship. If that makes sense.

We do eat together as a family at the weekends, and I'll always have lunch at the table with DS1, so there's enough sociable meals going on. Just not at the expense of another nice part of the day

I just have to arrange the prep time better I think, and just 'suck it up' and accept it may not be as quick an exit downstairs for the time being...

I don't think pootling about would work with mine unfortunately. He's too easily distracted, and the smallest thing has him sitting up and wanting to chat. Good idea though... maybe in a few weeks as I try and edge slowly away from the hand holding...

Just wanted to add support and say we are having a similar problem with our 3.10 year old DS. We also have a 7month old DS2. We put a lot of behavioural 'challenges' from DS1 down to DS2' arrival. The effects go on for a long time I think. We also have issues with daylight here in Spain whcih don't help! Has been takeing hours to get DS1 to sleep but as you say, when he is ready, he goes off quickly - unfortantely it seems that. for the moment at least, we need to be with him.

ds is also 3 and at that needs a nap/doesn't need a nap stage. I'm finding that a 30 min cat nap is enough to see him through till bedtime but no further, and if he hasn't taken it by 3.30 I don't let him sleep as it then messes up bedtime.
Bedtime is 7.30 and we have a long wind down routine: 7.00 milk/biscuits and 2 or 3 episodes of current favourite cartoon (Little Robots at the moment, Fireman Sam last week)however many to take up about 15 mins.
Then straight up to bathroom, dunk in bath/teeth/etc, jimjams on.
2 stories: first one sitting in chair, 2nd one lying down in bed. If still awake he gets one more story, but a nightnight/go to sleep type story.
Then light out and if he's fidgety I'll stay with him and hold his hand or cuddle him for a while till he falls asleep. At this point whatever happens we don't leave his room.

Bit rambly - point is, we have a series of events that can in no way be mistaken for anything other than leading up to bedtime! Now that we've got the acceptance of bedtime on the way to being sorted, the problem is more about leaving him at the end of stories as he can't settle easily by himself, but I am very happy to hold hands or cuddle if he wants to as this helps him go off in about 10 mins. Could that help, staying with him? Would he settle if you did? If ds starts trying to get out of bed I say I'll need to go downstairs until he's lying down again and because he wants me to stay he lies down.

Also, Elisabeth Pantley has a No Cry Sleep Solution for toddlers - might be worth a read, it helped us loads.

sympathies! x

oh, and blackout blinds help a LOT !

Total sympathy - this stage lasted ages with my DD now 5, and DS 3 (nearly 4) only just coming out of it.
Funnily enough, we go for a "tulip walk" (v appropriate for Holland) to wake him up - which is code for being whisked out into the garden to look at all the flowers whether he likes it or not. Works best when it's cold/windy/raining - not sure about this hot weather.
Cold flannel on face also works a little.
Otherwise go for early induced sleep in car - yes - 11am good - but get home after 30 mins then wake him up, with the above if necessary.

Sorry, didn't explain, I meant when he's falling asleep at 4 - 5pm, wake him up with walk in garden, flannel, etc.

I agree with onwardandupward, and was going to suggest sitting woth him until he falls asleep. I think bedtime hokey-cokey (in out in out.....) is all about attention, and unlike most people I don't see attention seeking as a bad thing, it's normal!! He wants you to soothe him off to sleep, and at three he's still just a little one really.

I do know how hard this can be, there is nearly three years between my two and it's hard to juggle them at bedtime, but as long as you are flexible and don't get hung up on the time I find it can be done.

He is at that "almost don't need a nap but not quite" stage and it's not easy, but like all transitions it will pass and whilst it is disruptive at the time it will get better, I promise!!!

Monkies

Hello, sounds like you're getting it sorted which is great. I eventually took a different tack with dd, partly because I simply don't have the patience to sit with her till she's sleepy, and when I have tried that, as soon as I leave the room she's wide awake and whining for me to stay anyway. I decided that she had to want to be in bed, so I introduced CD stories to put on when i leave, and her simple picture books (and now the ORT books she can actually read herself) so she can continue reading if she wants to. She also has a digital clock, and a sticker every time she stays in bed right through till 7am. (After 7 stickers, she gets a magazine). I don't focus on the sticker part though unless she really starts messing about, i don't really like reward charts like that.
I also confess to keeping the potty in her room even though she now uses the toilet, it stamped out the "I need a wee/poo" thing when she didn't actually - if she actually does a wee or poo in the potty she can come and get me to empty it. I also make sure she does a wee, has her water by her bed, has all the right teddies, etc, before I say goodnight!!! (ridiculous innit!)

She does play/read for a while after bedtime, but I don't mind as long as she stays in her room - i think it's good that she's learning to settle herself when she decides she's tired. Sometimes it irritates me if she's still awake far too late, but hey ho. When we were kids me & my dsis used to get up and play and often sit on the stairs listening to the adults - it used to drive my mum mad, so I'm glad she's not doing that!!

Re meals with your dh etc. If he's in at 6pm, I don't see why he can't either do the dinner or even better, put ds to bed??? Regardless of how hard he's worked, it is still his family at home that he has 50% responsibility for!
I don't have a dh, I have a boyf who is over a few times a week. I usually eat my tea with dd at 5ish, (he does too if it's the weekend and he's here with us) and snack in the evening if i get hungry, but if he is here earlier he usually does dd's bedtime stories and if we're going to eat together later, i will start the dinner & he'll take over when i go in to have my turn with dd. Or, if he's going to be in after her bedtime, I eat with dd and if it's that sort of meal, cook double for him to heat up, or else he sorts himself out!

tbh a meal isn't a priority for us - in fact we feel like it wastes our evening time a bit! We'd rather get eating out of the way and use the evening properly to watch a film or chat & listen to music etc etc . If we have a meal together it's either a very quick affair or a special occasion with candles etc. (like Valentine's Day/birthday etc)

I have had a similar problem with my DD. It started last summer when she was 2.5. We eventually managed to phase out her naps which definitely helped. She still occasionally has a nap and that is when she is most likely to play up when it is time for bed. We don't have a strict bedtime but if she has a nap, she goes to bed later, then more is likley to nap again the next day. There are loads of really good tips here already but be reassured that this is just another phase and he will grow out of it if you are consistent with your approach. My DD loves books and if she is not ready for sleeping, but it is well past her bedtime then we allow her to 'read' to herself in bed. We usually limit the books/time she is allowed and this has really helped and now she often settles down to sleep by herself. When she really plays up, we just keep returning her to bed with no talking or eye contact and we have found that this is definitely the best method - it can take a while and you need to be really consistent but it does work with our DD. Good Luck.

I found what helped is to absolutely knacker them out during the day so they are practically begging to go to sleep!

Playground, 10 mile hike, trampoline, whatever they like/enjoy and exhausts them.

Personally, I found that by focusing on the evening routine wasn't the problem and if she was tired, nothing would stop her from going to sleep.

So glad to read this thread as we are having the same problem with ds (3:5) and have an 8 month baby!

Ds had been saying he didn't like being left alone, so we gave him a story CD. This has helped in that he is now happy to stay in his room with it, BUT he seems stimulated by it and is in and out of bed to change CD /track etc etc. I know he isn't putting himself to sleep when he is tired cos he wakes later than usual and is grumpy.

Am thinking of having a time limit and star chart from tonight. I think that going in and just firmly putting him to bed would just result in him gettin more and more upset and unhappy to be left alone (he does have night light).

That's our experience to date for what its worth.

Hope all our little ones are going sleep more reliably soon, so we can have our evenings back!

Hello

Have you tried massage?

I have a 2 and a 4 year old - both are going through a phase of being a bit bonkers at night (sure it is the light nights). The only thing that is soothing them is a back massage and gentle song. Takes a while but far less than all the going in and out if I don't do it.

I'm just hoping when they're older they might do the same for me ...

Hello bergentulip,

It sounds like you've found your own way through this already but I have to admit that I'm a big fan of the 'Supernanny' approach which has worked like a dream for us (a) first time round and (b) after illness meant DD's nighttime routine went completely to pot.

We did all the usual bath, milk and story business, then put her to bed and left. When she got up, we put her back to bed with a 'night night'. When she got up again, we put her back to bed with no talking or eye contact. I then sat still in the doorway, and each time she got out of bed, I calmly put her back - still with no talking or eye contact.

This was really hard the first night, when she tried everything ("Want poo Mummy!" "Want milk Mummy", screaming, crying, flailing arms, etc) to get my attention. But eventually (after maybe 45 minutes?) she got bored and fell asleep. I suspect an older child would take more effort (DD is coming up for 2).

The second night was easier and didn't last as long (and was also helped by the fact that I remembered to bring a crossword and drink with me so I didn't get as bored and thirsty during the between-tantrum intervals!)

On the fourth night, she went straight to sleep when we turned the lights out, and continued to do from then on. What bliss!

After she was ill (when she had genuine reasons for wanting attention after bedtime), she continued playing up for a few nights until we did the same thing again. That time it took much less effort - probably because she knew that we meant business. Less than 20 mins the first night, five mins the second, then back to normal.

Now, she goes straight to sleep and if she's really tired will lie down and say "Night night Mummy/Daddy" without prompting - sometimes even before her story!

Now if I could just persuade DH to stay awake a bit later we might actually manage to get some 'us' time...!

Poor you i dont think i have had a full nights sleep for about nearly 8 years!!!
At nap time try to cut it shorter by about 10 mins every day till he's only taking about 20mins and it will be like a power nap.
With all the "i need...." things have you tried the shops are shut,the taps are off to sleep ther is no water left, there is no milk we have to wait for the milkman, i have even had are ther any juicy grapes at 4 in the moring neddless to say there were none .
Have you tried before teatime to try and run the legs off him, while you are making the tea how many times can he run round the garden, pram or whatever try and burn up excess energy anything you can think of then after tea it's drawing pictures, reading stories and quiet down time. Good luck, i have almost had 2 nights with nearly 6 hours undisturbed sleep but i dont want to say it out loud incase it doesn't happen again

This is a really helpful thread, have been having bedtime battles with my 2 year old dd.

Just wanted to add, the other thing I have found really helpful is white noise (we have a cd). We used it a lot when dd was a baby and it really helps send her off. After her milk I take her into her really dark room, put the white noise on and tell her a story which I make up. Normally she is so trance like she drifts off. Normally .