Mumsnet members get a 10% discount from Boden (including free returns and free delivery), The White Company, sweaty Betty, Luxury Family Hotels, JoJo Maman Bebe, Siblu, Blooming Marvellous, GLTC, Bump to 3 (the official online shop for Grobags) and more. Click here for more info Join mumsnet here.
Ok - an honest gut reaction needed here please. If you and your dh had damaging arguments where dh was spiteful, aggressive and unfair to you (and brutally unfair and critical to just one of your children) but was a lovely dad for the rest of the time. Would you divorce your dh if this happened...
once every 3 years once a year once every 3 months once a month once every 3 days every day
(needless to say wont go to counselling blardy blarr )
god! Um... I dont know. I dont think I would ever let anyone be horrible to any child of mine. He needs to learn RIGHT NOW that is not appropriate. How damaging to that child can it be???? Its the fact that you use the word "brutally" - that is scary. Not just nit picky Dad but scary.
OK so its kind of how often should I let him abuse my child then? Hmmm Yep still stick by my initial gut reaction ...second time...outta here. In my book everyone gets one chance to recognise and correct.
eeny beeny - if only it were that simple. he knows it's not ok but is a result of a f**ked up childhood himself all the talking and analysing and apologies afterwards don't stop it happening again and again
He's an adult and a parent now, not every abused child goes on to abuse. Its not an excuse and it wasn't your childrens fault their father was abused himself (if that what you mean). IMO he needs to remove himself from the family until he can deal with whatever happened to him and stop taking it out on his kids...and you of course.
littlegreyrabbit I am sorry if I made it sound like I thought it was simple. But to respond to your last point that he had a bad childhood and apologised etc - the key thing you said is that it still happens "again and again"
Ok... So no matter what the reason was I would not let someone hurt my child again and again. I know you love him and he has clearly suffered himself as a child but still you have to draw the line somewhere.
explain to oldest dc why dad is like he is use positive reinforcement to dis prove what dad says if it is affecting your child adversely then you need to decide if your husband can change in some way or if he should go
What would hurt you more - for your mother or father to say they hated you and wished you hadnt been born or for them to slap you? I am just using those 2 things as an example I am not saying that is what your DH is saying to your DS. The point I am trying to make is that physical abuse is not necessarily the worst kind of abuse. It is just a type of abuse.
can you not explain to him, the damage it is doing to his child. Espesh as he has had a bad childhood himself, he may begin to understand what he is doing to the child.
A very sad situation, as you say, the rest of the time he is lovely and has these outbursts, which IMO he needs to address and get under control. Otherwise, not only does your child suffer, but you are obviously suffering and it will affect the other child too, and that is not a good marriage.
If he cannot seek help to control his anger, he is not worth being married to. And if you did separate, he may well see the error of his ways. Shock tactics can work.
Oh oh OHHHH - The more I read I am very for your DC's and at your DH. My sperm doner was a £$%%^£"£ and it effectedly me greatly - and does even now (28!). Please dont let your kids be subjected to any type of psychological crap
If only it was me saying all these sensible things to somebody else it's just that nothig is ever just so clear cut.
Dh is never ever physically aggressive but very verbally so. Lots of swearing and loud shouting. He doesn't exactly demean or undermine ds1 either - in fact he usually tells him he loves him loads and that he is a fantastic wonderful boy several times a day. It's just when we (dh and I) have an argument he seems to turn it all on to ds1 really aggressively (shouts at him, sends him to his room, tells him he is never ever allowed to play on the computer again because he is throwing it away). This is usually because ds1 is shouting at him 'stop arguing, please don't argue, say sorry to mummy' and dh seems to feel this is somehow undermining his authority or something ridiculous. Ds2 just gets ignored as he cries in a little corner
forever cleaning I have tried a million f-ing times to talk him into seeing the damage it does.
He tells me he sees, he agrees, he is never ever going to do it again...
If it was only like this I would have left years ago but my (serious) question is just how bad does it have to be before having a dad who lives with you and loves you sometimes is worse than having no dad at home at all
am so sad to read this I've seen it at home and I hate it
just had complete over reaction, shouting, swearing to the eldest, sent to his room, banned from everything -- so afterwards asked dh to go up and talk to him he refused and went to bed
I wish I could offer advice.. it's the one thing I would leave my dh over
gut reaction is that I wouldn't have it, it's one thing to be having a go at you regularly, but when he's being 'brutally and unfairly critical' to dc then it becomes much more urgent to sort something out imo. Your loyalty should be with them and they need protecting. If he wants to change, then it sounds like he needs to go to counselling and if he won't then I would seriously consider giving him an ultimatum at least. I know it's easier said than done, but he will be damaging dc's self esteem and sounds like he's in a frightening situation if he's shouting and swearing at him.
i really dont see the point in having a dad who lives with you and loves you 'sometimes'. The little fellow wont know where he is with that, all confused wondering what he has done wrong.
There are many good dads who have seperated from the wives and been full on fathers, without the pressure. As you say, these events happen when you and your DH argue, and your little boy bears the brunt of it.
For you to be asking this, I feel perhaps you are already at your decision that it cannot go on, and he has to leave.
Irecognisethis - you say you would leave dh over. Can I ask why you are still with him? (not in a critical sense at all - you just seem to have the same dilemma as me).
Very much appreciate all views -they all seem to echo my own thoughts at different moments.
Must be very confusing for him to be told he's wonderful one minute and being sworn at the next. Is there somewhere you could go temporarily, perhaps the shock that you're serious about it will bring him to his senses and he'll consider counselling.
Just a thought. If you separate/divorce, then even if you get residence of your DCs, he will still have contact with them, and although I'm not a family lawyer I would have thought that would involve e.g. them staying with him every other weekend. What's to say he won't be just as horrible to the DC in question then, without you being there to protect him/her? Might it not be better to grit your teeth and stick with it and protect your DCs as best you can?
For a few years now I suppose I have been trying to weigh up the damage done by staying (arguments, fear, trauma, incredibly poor role model for boys growing into young men sometimes but also some happy times, love and laughs on other days) VERSUS the damage done by divorce (pain, blame, the dcs removed from a dad who does love them, dh would probably need to move to another part of the country - loss of contact, finance etc etc etc).
I just really honestly don't know what's right for the dcs.
Yes Irecognisethis I have threatened to leave but I don't think he believed me because I probably didn't believe it myself but it is going through my mindame old dilemma though - will it traumatise the kids even more than smoothing over the cracks and putting on a happy face again.
And yes, sixspotburnet has a point. I am afraid to leave ds1 alone with dh as they always argue. If we split up I wont be there between them as peacemaker. It may make it a lot worse for ds1 and ds2 who would probably blame me for leaving dh.
I get - 'you're always on his side never my side. When we had children we agreed never to undermine each other but you always let ds1 off lightly when I.m punishing him.'
My answer: 'I promise I will back you to the hilt with the dcs if you are fair and reasonable with them but you cannot ask me to back you up if you are being unfair or the punishment is totally out of proprotion to the 'crime'.'
Doesn't seem to go through his thick farking ears though.
Not sure about that sixspot, surely if it's known that he may not be trusted with them they will take that into consideration and he would have to be supervised at least for a while, or ordered to have counselling perhaps. The courts must have loads of experience in this kind of situation.
Chunky - I honestly don't think the courts would take him being a shouty dad into consideration. As I say he is never violent so nothing that would 'stick' in court.
Bloody hell, how depressing, all these damaged people ruining their own childrens lives. I mean your dh's by the way, I can see how once you're in it seems impossible to get out. LGR, it sounds like you want out. Your kids won't blame you for leaving. They might resent you for staying.
I would ask him to seek help, there are groups for men specifically that help them keep being a positive impact in their own lives, eg near me there's one affiliated to Relate, which may be a ggod place to start.
last time this happened I said I wanted us to go to relate. Dh agreed but said he wanted to be given time to think about it because he had changed and he was going to change and I would see how he was going to be a different person from now on.
It's not just shouty though is it, you describe it as aggressive and brutal behaviour, not forgetting ds2 cowering in the corner. I'm not an expert, but if it's worth leaving him for it's worth them taking it seriously. You could get advice though on that before you make any decisions and try the trial separation thing to shock him into making big changes.
On women's aid there's a big check list for domestic abuse perhaps if you went through this with your, mainly, reasonable dh he would get a little shock about his intimidating behaviour. Perhaps your ultimatum could then be get help or leave. I understand what you mean about not protecting your child when their father is being frightening and see that this may lead them to believe your not protecting them and I think you're right. Relate do do sessions over the phone if you want to talk through stuff and you can do this or attend a meeting alone, just to get the ball rolling. You could also email them with an outline of your concerns about your dh and they can advise a group. It sounds as if your dh has some old wounds that need healing before he can see his own behaviour.
Am I the only one who feel I would need more clarification to see exactly how the dh's behaviour - swearing and shouting and saying 'you are never going on the computer- differs from that of the typical Mum going on MN to say "I am always shouting at my dc's"? And who always gets patted on the head and told it's not really her fault?
It may be that the OP's dh is indeed abusive. But if shouting and making impossible threats counts as domestic violence, and if parent and child should be separated after the second incident of this (as recommended by one poster)- what hope is there for most of us Mums to keep our children? Who of us can truthfully say we've never lost it and shouted at our children? The difference is, a lot of it happens (if we are SAHMs) when dh isn't there to criticise our parenting techniques.
I really think we need more information to see if this really does qualify as domestic abuse.
I know what she means though Cory not abuse in the conventional sense but a continual belittling, criticising, hurtful, frightful, inconsistent approach to discipline
then the turnaround of being a wonderful Dad
they don't know where they are and it can be very very damaging
Having a dad like this IS worse than having no dad at home at all.
What about all those couples with children who DID split in the end (myself included). We struggled with the 'is it better to have 2 parents who dont get on living in the same house'....etc etc for a long time before doing it (18 mths for me).
He can say sorry he'll change and he will say it forever...simple fact is..he will NEVER change.
i agree with cory to an extent,although i do feel the op is holding back somewhat.the first post was about 'how often does this have to happen before it crosses the line from occasional angry outbursts(not nice but human and sometimes understandable),to emotionsl abuse?' from what i gathered,but its still unclear how often this is happening.
gut reation now i have read all the posts - i do think marriage is worth working at - but if you make a stand to not allow this then you have to 'follow' that through tooIf he has said several times it wont happen again but it still does he obviouly has a problem.
How about deciding what you want to happen if it happens again (not just accept)? Could you put some money aside to say go to a hotel for a while or ask him to leave - you could even agree this is what will happen if it does happen again. He will then know what the consequences are too. But you must be prepared to carry it through. If getting him to go to counselling is something you want then make that a condition to you even giving him another chance - let him be the one to book it up not you.
Once you find your own boundaries tell him and make him know them he then has the choice as to what he wants to do.
He may have a lapse but at least if you know he is prepared to walk the walk not just talk the talk it will be a start.
) 
at your DH. My sperm doner was a £$%%^£"£ and it effectedly me greatly - and does even now (28!). Please dont let your kids be subjected to any type of psychological crap 
? I would be very interested to read them. 
