I was wondering if anyone thought that there is a tendancy amongst us to catastrophise divorce. I have noticed that many MNetters (including myself) when talking about the decision to end relationships say 'it would destroy my children' or 'it would ruin my children's lives'.

As a product of my parents very messy divorce, and as a laydee who has been in a miserable marriage for a while and has 3 young kids, this is at the forefront of my mind.

My feeling at the moment is that it wasn't so much that my parents weren't together, it was the way they handled their divorce that was so desructive. Hence if we as parents work together to focus on making sure the impact on the kids is minimised, it may not necessarily be the 'undoing of them'.

Whaddya reckon?

I suspect you are right. I don't think my parents' divorce affected us half as much as the god-awful rows, tension and hatred that let up to it. Sadly some of this continued afterwards so if I were to ditch dh, I would really, really try to keep everything civil in front of ds (although I know it would depend on both of us and I'm sure from MN there are plenty of mothers who try bloody hard but have useless exes).

I totally agree - as a kid I survived 7 divorces/split-ups (between both parents) but they were totally civilized and did not damage any of us at all. The only bad times I remember were the last few days of each relationship where you could cut the 'atmosphere' with a knife...

Seven? Blimey, your parents were busy!

7 crikey how on earth did they manage that

i think there are so many variables, depending on the age of the children, if the divorce was agreed mutually, or one party left/ was unfaithful.. things might start amicable, and then when solicitors get involved, can get nastier..especially where money is concerned

i imagine lots of couples intend for it to be a smooth a transition as possible, some don;t..

children and their needs can so often seem to get lost in the mix.

Lordy, 7 is rather impressive!
I was also thinking that part of the damage is done when you as a child feel abandoned by the parent that moves out. Organising 50/50 shared care if possible would surely be a way to avoid that do you think?
Why do we get into this catastrophising language then? It makes divorce feel like the ultimate betrayal of our kids.

Lordy, 7 is rather impressive!
I was also thinking that part of the damage is done when you as a child feel abandoned by the parent that moves out. Organising 50/50 shared care if possible would surely be a way to avoid that do you think?
Why do we get into this catastrophising language then? It makes divorce feel like the ultimate betrayal of our kids.

oops

I think this is an excellent point, Green. My (late) parents had a very troubled relationship, but never divorced. However, I can clearly remember the 6-month period in which my father was not living in the marital home were actually more stable, peaceful and straightforward for me, even though I had to visit him in a nearby town rather than see him all the time. I loved my parents dearly, and they me, but the relationship was a disaster and best left well alone from my own (selfish?) POV.

I do agree that if parents were able to handle the entire divorce in that manner, it would be fine.

However, for the majority, something as huge as divorce often dehumanizes the most stable & sensible & strong of people. Especially as one person usually doesn´t want the divorce complications are bound to occur, emotions are all over the place, and a fierce protectivness of the children can come out of nowhere.

I think most people know the appropriate way to behave in divorce, and I think most people regret many things about how they handled it in later years, but the actual process really is rough. I was miserable in my marriage, but the path of separation has been a lot harder. I am beginning to come out the other side, and I am happier than I have been in many years, but it really isn´t an easy adjustment.

Even though as parents we always put our children first, we don´t always have anything to give to anyone during something so hard.

DO NOT stay with your partner because you fear divorce - I think in the majority of cases when you choose happiness things always work out for the best in the end. Good luck.

Kama - interesting post. can i also ask what in particular about the separation have YOU found the hardest, and also what have the kids found the hardest?

I am proud of the way that I separated with my ex partner. I went to see a therapist at the time to support me through it as I had experienced quite a traumatic deivorce when I was young where I knew nothing of my parents unhappiness, until one day my dad told us they were divorcing, left the same night and a new man moved in a coupe of hours later !!

When I split up with my ex we talked lots and kept the children updated with what was happening. We were incredibly fair to each other - financially and emotionally and split everything in half. We weren't having huge blazing rows or anything, it was just a relationship that started very young and we grew in different directions. My ex has lots of contact with the kids and I now have a new partner whom the kids get on very well with. It doesn't have to be terrible

I

excuse typos ...wriggly child jumping on me !

Imo it is the thought of the unknown. It is the not-knowing how things will work out that is frightening.

I know when I was happy in my marriage, divorce was something other people did. A bit like cancer, you think it is something that will never happen to you and the whole thing is scary.

I am not niaive (both parents divorced more than once) but I thought I had found a good one.

When our problems started, the thought of divorce was more terrifying that anything. That was 6 months ago and it is no longer frightening, just something that might have to happen

From a distance, it does look scary, but as you get closer, you realise it may be for the best all round.

As for the dc, they will be much better with one happy parent than two miserable ones!!

laidback - i'm terribly afraid that dh will get very angry once we split. although he knows things aren't working, he's the pretend its all ok type, so will resent me rocking the boat i fear. how did you keep it so civil - i understand that your therapy helped you, but were you able to keep communication up with your ex(dh)?

yes, i totally agree stirling mum- fear of the unknown.

but this weekend, i just feel something shifted - instead of worrying and catastrophising the future for the kids, i recognised i can only make a decision based on NOW and will have to deal with the fall out. if i manage it as well as i can, surely the kids will manage well too? maybe i'm being very naive?

Its just this whole threat of ruination of the children that people generally refer to, it paralyses you i think.
it also relates to the overlap thread i think - in that it doesn't feel so easy to end a relationship you are not happy in because you are worrying about the fall out for kids.

yes, if you manage it as well as you can, the children WILL manage. Be prepared for them to throw it at you when they are argumentative teenagers, though, along with every other weapon they can think of!

interesting that no one has disagreed yet? i was expecting rampant explanations of how the children must always come first, and yes the damage will be irrevocable? which of course is all true, i know, but i suppose its degrees.

edam - am in therapy myself so know i will have support to manage it as best as i am able. but as laid back in england says, you don't know what it will throw at you.

It does damage children yes. It doesn't mean it shouldn't happen though.

I think acknowledging that the children's lives have been torn apart when it wasn't their choice is important. Particularly for young children when their families are their whole lives so divorce is very hard on them.

I think either extreme - catastrophising or pretending that it has no effect, is damaging to children. It's ignoring what is actually happening to them.

good point dittany. does anyone know of any books that are good for understanding this more, either for adults or children?

I've just sent a piece I wrote about this - for which Edam and many other MNers spoke to me - to a couple of other people. Do CAT me if you'd like it.

One thing I am not absolutely sure about is 50/50 shared care. My sister used to be a divorce lawyer and came to the conclusion that it was very much about parents' needs, not kids'. That children need one, primary, place to be and which is their home.

Oh, I agree, MI, 50/50 is about the parents' needs (usually the father, I suspect). If you have divorced, you are not living in the same house and you can't both spend the same amount of time with the child as before. It's the adults' choice, they should deal with it, not make the kids contort themselves to fit the parents.

If my parents had tried that, I would have hated it. My mother says the first few questions we asked her after she told us were 'where will we live' and 'will we still go to the same school'. Once she'd answered 'here' and 'yes' we were much more sanguine, she reckons.

It's like the old story about the wisdom of Soloman - no parent who really puts their child first would want to spilt that child down the middle.

oh MI that would be fab. Will try and work out how to CAT.
50/50 though - if parents lived within 5 mins of eachother and so school wasn't a problem etc do you still think that. I have huge issues with kids feeling abandoned by one of the parents? Would this not be the case if it wasn't 50/50 or at least 60/40???

Green, I would say that much more important than having 50/50 shared time (although I think that can work, but I've no experience of it) what matters is feeling that the other parent is still available - i.e. that you can call him when you want and he can talk to you, and so on.

I think if it's just part of the routine that sometimes you're with one parent sometimes with the other then it isn't a big deal for a kid, but if it's 'now you can't have x' then it's a bigger problem iyswim.

Sorry that's a bit incoherent, typing with ds on me!

Absolutely IB. My kids are with me more than they are with my EXp, BUT they do see him more than every other weekend and they know they have the freedom to see him when they want....you see, I don't need to punish him by witholding contact.

Green, I suppose it remained civil because we talked alot, we were sad that things hadn't worked out. We talked about what was fair. We took things slowly - from first talking about separating to actually moving out was about a year. We wrote each other letters when things became difficult to talk about. We got angry when we needed to.We weren't petty. We asked our friends and family to not take sides and explained to them why we were separating. We didn't blame each other for something that, effectively, was out of our control. We kept the channels of communication open with the kids.

I struggle to think that my separation has significantly 'damaged' my kids. It has changed them and sometimes they are sad and appropriately angry , but they seem to have adapted well and are great boys. We still talk about things now and I am open to them having issues with it all when they are older - but for now they seem affected but not permanently scarred.

Can I ask whether people think leaving dh with kids in family home and me moving nearby, with a 50/50 arrangement would necessarily lead to the kids feeling abandoned by their mother.

Practically speaking, dh is from a very wealthy family and has lots of money behind him, I have not a cent to my name other than half the house. So, I know that if they stayed with him, life for them would be more 'comfortable' in a monetary sense. Plus, dh is a great father and I'm thinking it would lead to less resentment from him and anger towards me hence positive benefits for the kids.

BUT BUT BUT, do you think it would be interpreted by them as me 'abandoning them' in catastrophic language.

Understand CATing now MI so will sort it out tonight. Thanks.

Laidback - also wanted to ask, was your dh angry at first? Was it your decision in the end or a mutual one?

I hear you both about being available.

My mum left me with my dad when the split up first and I did feel abandoned and it's something that's been very difficult to get over. I never fully trusted her again and it damaged our relationship deeply. I also didn't realise I'd had those feelings until I was well into adulthood, so you might think your children are coping but it doesn't mean they are.

Who is their primary carer, green? If it's been you since they were babies they'll have a bond with you that isn't the same as what they have with their dad. It's not a value judgement its just the way these things work.

Did either of your parents leave you? The reason I'm asking is that my mother was shipped off to boarding school when she was seven and she repeated the pattern of abandonment with me and my brother at almost exactly the same age.

i feel it improved the life of my kids when i split with my h, i certainly dont regret it and they are definitely not traumatised by it

It sounds like you are afraid of your DH's anger and might be trying to appease him.

You could phrase that as 'you are moving with your dc to a smaller house nearby and they will still be able to go back and see their father at his house 50% of the time' and then it doesn't sound like abandonment, does it?

My mum did this with her second h (she had dc all week and sf had them all week-end, so not quite 50/50 but close) and the kids certainly didn't feel abandoned.

I know a case of 50/50 custody that worked very well. The kids are in their early 20's now, and happy, functional, brilliant and close to both their parents. (Much closer than I ever was to my parents--and I was the product of parents who stayed together.)

What may have made a difference was that their mum lived a 5 minute walk from their dad, so there wasn't that much upheaval. They had half their stuff at their mum's and half their stuff at their dad's. A bedroom at each place--and it seemed to work fine.

So it probably can work in certain circumstances, but I agree it's probably not ideal.

I think I'm a lot more messed up than (a lot) of children of divorced parents. I think lots of things e.g. a bad family dynamic or an insane/ambitous/pushy/alcholic/etc parent can be more damaging than a divorce.

Green, sometimes it is more difficult and painful to take the decission to divorce than deal with the consequences of it. (or at least it was in my case)

We didn't have much drama in the final days of our marriage. We realised were we were going and decided to leave it while we still could talk to each other than wait until all those awful things, that sometimes happen at the end of a relationship, were part of our days.

In the first days after the decision was taken, and while I was still in panic about surviving on my own, etc. I ended up at a centre for Separated Families. They gave me some very good advice about how to sort the things up to avoid conflict. One of the things they told me is that the separation won't hurt the children, what does it is all the rows and distress in the days that preceed it. They also recommended a book that I have found invaluable, it is called "Putting Children First" you can get it from Amazon.

So we separated in good terms, DS is fine and enjoying the amount of quality time he is receiving with each of us (our time with him is now precious, so we try to make the best use of it). We are also well, DexH seems happier and enjoying himself, I have had some fantastic months, and I can not yet believe how the decision to separate has brought so much hapiness for the three of us.

If you put your children first and protect each other feelings as much as you can, you can get through it without causing much damage.

Oh I feel like crying at the postivity of your posts. It makes me feel far less desperate. I know I've got a hard time to come and I will have some farking awful days ahead, but your stories give me hope that if I try my hardest to make sure the children are our focus, we might just get through it.

MemysonandI - getting to this point has been like torture, it really has. I've been going round in circles for, dare I say it, years. We have been in therapy together on and off for 5 years trying to fix this. Five years FFS. So there is a little bit of my heart that jumped when you said sometimes the decision is harder than the consequences. Just taking action and feeling like I CAN make a decision based on the here and now has been like a weight lifting off me. I am going to get that book, thanks for recommendation.

dittany, i have been the primary carer but recently have been back at work full time and we have a fab nanny who would stay. she could be a sort of continuation IYKWIM, and I'm sure would be happy to move between houses. They are very very close with their dad though and having3 boys, I think the male role model thing is important. You are right, I am a bit frightened of his anger, and I'm sure there is an element of wanting to keep the peace. But at the moment, anything else feels a push too far. I am presuming the arrangement we come to doesn't have to be permanent does it?

I love that way of putting it ib - it is soooo important that I handle this right. My dad did leave us and started a new family and I always felt very very abandoned by him. My mum was a whole other story. She was hugely resentful and bitter and took it all out on me as the eldest.

There is also good advice on the book about how to tell the children that you are going to separate. We followed the advice, told DS in a very informal chat, he asked if he would see his father again, I explained that he would see him every morning and he would have some super special holidays at his Daddy's hose every other weekend and oh yes, that he was getting a bunker bed.... forget about his parents getting separated he was so happy about the bunker bed that he almost forgot he had a mother! His teacher reported that the only change they saw on him was that he couldn't stop talking about his new bed and even being a bit smug about having 2 houses

BTW first time we ended up in Relate because we wanted to separate was in 2000, we just separated last year.

My life has changed obviously, I can't plan for the expensive overseas holidays twice a year, don't go out for dinners as often as beforem I'm using Avon instead of Clarins (mind you I have some self respect and never use their perfumes!), I'm working twice more hours than before in order to sustain myself, but I'm soooo happy that I don't even care!

ok you are going to have to stop it now memysonandi, i am blubbling with hope at your story. How old was your ds? Can I ask if you had to deal with anger from your dh?

He was 4. regarding the anger... well, there wuld be times when you two will get afraid of change, and when you are afraid you get defensive and say things you really don't mean (exH said he would take DS from me, I said I would go back to my country) but once we realised we were not a "danger" to each other things were fine.

I think that it is particularly important to discuss things with a cold head, everytime that the discussion started to become aggresive we said that we would continue "tomorrow" when we had calmed down ("shut your mouth when you are angry" was my personal mantra during those weeks). At the end of the day, we both wanted the best for DS, and at some point we got to acccept that we didn't want to hurt each other or make each other's life difficult, and in that understanding we have re built a good friendship.

Be kind to him when you tell him, you may get surprised, he may not even be surprised (ExH was the one who said the final word, I was taken aback and felt a bit miserable but then accepted that I have wanted that for years on end). If you think you couldn't keep calm to manage the process, Relate may help you both to go through your fears and expectations by mediating during the conversation.

It is not divorce but the breakdown of the marital relationship that is potentially so damaging for children.

If the marital relationship is truly broken, better to divorce IMO than to stay in the broken marriage.

My parents split up when I was 10 - and tbh it was a welcome relief from the endless rows. They did handle it all very badly and things all went awry later on but it wasn't the fault of the divorce, IYSWIM. Despite all that happened subsequently I never wished the divorce hadn't happened.

And then I divorced my first husband when DS1 and DD were 5 and 7. We always managed to be civil to each other and in fact now are the best of friends; he's a great guy but was a terrible husband! We did the full 50/50 split and in hindsight I wish I hadn't - DS1 could cope but it was tough on DD, I missed them like hell and I ended up working P/T so I could pick them up from school and see them on their "Dad" days, which was a financial disaster. I can't claim it was all straightforward for DD - she's had a lot of problems along the way but I really don't think the divorce was the cause of them. Now they're 18 and 20 and (mostly) well balanced, happy kids.

To sum up - it needn't be a disaster, but you have to be able to stay civil with your ex.

Green you have to put doing what's right for your children before your fear of his anger, whatever right may be. My mother was scared of my dad and did exactly the same kinds of things as you're suggesting to avoid his wrath. A nanny isn't a substitute for a mother.

If you've been their primary carer for the majority of their lives, then it's going to be a double wrench to lose both the security of the family they knew and you not being there half the time.

If you do come to this arrangement, it's going to be very difficult to change it later on if he decides to fight you. And the fact that you are suggesting that the arrangement might not be permanent says to me that you don't think it's what's best for your dc.

Have you talked to a solicitor?

Although I don't often post I just wanted to put my perspective of 50/50 care. When my ex and I separated 8 years ago I promoted this idea because, like green above, I thought it would make it easier for my husband to accept - he too was 'an angry man'.

I should say that I had been the primary caregiver always and the children were very used to turning to me for the day to day things in life.

The result of 50/50 was appalling for the children - my ex treated them like possessions and told them that they were 'his children at his house and my children at mine'. He had been both physically and mentally abusive to me but I had always thought he would be just a parent to the children (there are four of them - the eldest 10 when we separated) - he wouldn't let them ring me, they had to have everything separate and refused to discuss with them anything to do with 'their other life'. Obviously there is a lot more but I can't go into it all here.

The children became extremely distressed and after 3 months I changed it to every other weekend and once in the week supper (they also spend holidays) - this was so much better but I spent a long time feeling guilty because my children had been told by my ex that I didn't want them at all. They all had counselling and it has been very up and down over the years.

I was in a position to change what I thought was best for the kids because I had been the primary caregiver and had stayed in the family home. However it was extremely messy at the time and against my exes wishes. I do know other people where more time with dad has worked but not with mine. Perhaps it might be better to aim for 50/50 over time rather than start something which is difficult to backtrack on.

It struck a chord with me when green said she wanted to appease her partner because my experience was the same but he stayed angry and took it out on the children. If I could have gone back I would realise that it was not my role to appease an angry man who was angry because I wouldn't put up with his abuse any more.

Sorry this is so long, and of course others circumstances might be totally different to mine but I hope it might help to see a different viewpoint.

No, I am going to go an have a free consultation this week.

I didn't mean for one second to suggest that their nanny was a substitute, just that there would be some continuity there.

But in principle if care is shared and its a case of them staying in their family home with one parent, I'm not sure if its the worst thing for it to be their dad???? They are very close with him. He often will have them for whole weekends when I have been in London on various courses.

I do hear what you are saying though, and you are right I will do what is best for children before being scared of him. I'm not scared of him, I'd just rather deal with separation in the most amicable way possible. I don't want to fight. BUT I don't want the kids to feel I am abandoning them. I think I need to have the chat with dh to see what he feels about me staying in the house etc before I jump to any unecessary conclusions I guess.

Agree about the 50/50 not being exactly a good idea, particularly with young children. Obviously, there should be some cases when it works just fine.

I have DS 70% of the time (he goes to his dad's every wednesday after school and every other weekend from Friday to Monday. It's working well.

I think that how much time children spend with each parent needs to be reevaluated frequently. Circumstances change, separated parents' lives become more settled and stable and at different times one parent is able to offer more or less than the other.

We are working towards an "annual review" in September for my stepsons (based in part on their school timetables and other activities, for which we learn the annual schedule in September). They spend about 40% of time with me and their father at the moment and it works very well.

Sorry, I might have given the wrong impression. Dh is a good guy. But thanks kate, I understand the point about building it up. Also, MMS&I, the idea of one or two nights after school plus every other weekend, sounds about right to me too. So, yes, I suppose that isn't 50/50 but it means dh would never have a big gap. I like the idea of an annual review too.
This is very helpful to get myself clearer before talk comes to this, but I also understand I need to stay flexible.

ExH was also worried about missing the "day-to-day" experiences with DS, to help with that, he takes DS to school every day of the week but wednesday (when I take him and he collects him, I collect hime every other day). It is a bit of a hassle BUT it has been very good for everyone. Now, I only wish the school was not that far, although the distance provides a fantastic opportunity for loooong chats with DS.