I've namechanged for obvious reasons.
Dh and I have been married almost 20 years.
We have two great kids, and we're both in busy jobs.
But our relationship has hit another rocky patch...there've been several before..and I don't know whether it's time to admit it just ain't working.
I don't think we respect each other any more.
He's very good around the house; crap in bed (always has been) and these days grumpy most of the time.
He's also put on weight and tbh I don't find him attractive any more.
He's made me very depressed this week. I;ve discovered a breast irregularity and went to the GP yesterday morning...who's referred me to a breast specialist.
He didn't ask me about the outcome of the appointment until this morning (said he forgot). It just seems a really clear sign to me that I come bottom of the pile with him.
He says I don't care about him either, and there's a lot of truth in that.
Tonight, as soon as I came home from work, we had a meal and now he's gone out again, even though I asked him not to.
I'm just very sad. I don't want to split up yet because it would ruin the children's lives...but is it time to admit that it's over? How do you really know if it's over?
And what next? Could I stay in the same house until the kids are grown up with a view to splitting later?
Is it possible to have a legal separation now and divorce in many years time?

The easy bit 1st- yes you can have a legal separation, BUT not sure of the small print. I have a friend who has a LS but that is because her H left her and she won't divorce him- so he has to wait 5 years- but meanwhile she has got a financial settlement ( married 25+ years and a SAHM).

I can identify with many of the points you make. However, only you know if they are bad enough to jack it all in. I have a DH who would forget very easily if I had appt or whatever, over health, and he often has.

Sounds as if the communication has gone- can you rescue the situation? Do you want to rescue it? Can you have a no-holds barred discussion over what you want and are not getting and vice versa?

Do you still have any fun together? Would you like him as a friend if he wasn't your DH?

There is no perfect time to split up. My relationship has had very rocky patches and I kept thinking "not yet" - after GCSEs, after As, after 1st year at uni, after finals...and so it goes on. I know what you mean!

Only you can decide. I'd recommend counselling, so you can explore how you feel and try to find out what you want- and maybe couple counselling if he would go. it won't necessarily mean you stay married, but it should help you decide.

Thank you. Perhaps counselling would be the answer..need to go...he's coming back in!

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i would say when the thought of still being with him in years to come makes your heart sink

and the thought of living without him doesnt make you unhappy

How old are your children?

Have you had couple counselling? If not I would say it's worth a try before you give up on this relationship.

Dc are 15 and 11.

I don't honestly know how I would feel about living without him in the future...he's not a supportive person emotionally - I'm the strong one.

If we've ever had crises - bereavement, illness, I'm the one who holds it together while he collapses and suffers from stress.

I don't think that bodes well.

We had couples counselling many years ago...the counsellor told us to scale down the demands in our lives, which wasn't very helpful tbh and we stopped going.

Things got better for a while. It's not dreadful...I can live with him and he has many good points...but it's not great either, and I think he's just going to get grumpier as the years go on..the fun-loving soul I married has disappeared.

What would you like to be doing together to have fun? Have you just got out of the habit of doing fun stuff- or is it deeper than that?

Have you ad the conversation with him that you are having here?

Are you simply bored- or is it more than that?

Do you do anything together? Do you share a united vision of what you want out of the next 30 years?

What makes him grumpy? What do you actually mean by grumpy? IS it that he just wants to relax at the end of a day, or do you mean he is always in a bad mood with you, or argues a lot- or what?

If you could get things back to how they were when you were happy and in love, would you? Would you put the work in? Would he? And FWIW a lot of kids would rather have happy parents living apart than miserable ones living together.

I don't know exactly when, because I've never been divorced, but it sounds as if you have both rather lost your way. Have you told him that you are thinking of divorce? What do you think his reaction would be?

I am not completely sure from what you say that you and he have reached the end of hte road, but am not sure why I think that. Don't stay with him if you don't want to, but I'm not sure from what you've said what the breaking point would be.

Why do you assume that splitting up would "ruin the children's lives"? That's a bit melodramatic isn't it? Lots of parents divorce and it doesn't rui the children's lives in the majority of cases.

Please don't stay in this relationship just for the sake of the children. You need to value and respect yourself more than that and ecide whether you actually want to spend the rest of your life in this relationship. Would you be happy to continue on the way things have been for the foreseeable future?

Thanks everyone...lots of questions here.
What I want is more attention and respect from him...I feel like I come bottom of the pile a lot of the time, taken for granted.

He's been better..less grumpy, more considerate, in the last 24 hours after I told him how upset I was he hadn't asked about the doctor's appointment.

By grumpy I mean very short and impatient with the dc in particular, uncommunicative with me.

The trouble is this better, more attentive, mood he's in now will last for a while and then it'll go back to how it was...but am I being unrealistic to expect that attention to last after more than 20 years together?

We have got out of the habit of doing fun stuff, and I'm beginning to think our social life doesn't fit our family life at the moment.

We're very busy with work/kids and tend to socialise by going to friends' homes (we did this last night)...when I think we should spend more time together as a couple...it's something I'm going to suggest, and see what happens.

Yes, I'm probably melodramatic saying it would ruin the dc's lives if we split up, but I do have what's maybe an old-fashioned view about the effect on children.

As we're not warring with each other (my parents used to do that, and it was damaging), I do think a split would be more damaging.

If it wasn't for the dc I'd probably suggest a trial separation.

He knows I'm thinking of divorce, but I've said that before and not acted on it..his response was that he does love me. The trouble is, I don't feel his actions bear that out.

But he's fundamentally a decent person, very kind and generous to other people (in fact too kind sometimes, he over-commits and gets put upon)...it's just I'm seeing less of that side of him in our lives together.

No, you are not being unrealistic to expect attentiveness and kindness.
But I do think its sounds complicated. I don't know, I am just not sure from what you are saying that it is time to throw in the towel. It is clear that he is not taking your needs seriously enough, and the question is, can he learn to do that or is it time to give up?
In other words, can you make him see the problem is serious, and isn't getting better?

Could you maybe make an excuse that the kids won't see through, and go away for a week by yourself to think things through (or get him to go away?) It might sharpen his mind a little, once he realises your threat is real.

Kind, generous etc....maybe he's just forgotten how to be that way with you?

It does sound as if you are BOTH in a rut. What is stopping you arranging things for you to do together? Does this need a conversation - or rather you saying you have booked a meal and organised the baby sitter if you need one, or you've bought theatre tickets- or whatever?

Divorce sounds drastic for what you are explaining here- it sounds to me like a marriage that has become dull and where communication has stopped.

Are you still affectionate? Do you still have sex?

Why not book a meal out and have a real talk to him about it all, instead of just focusing on it when something doesn't work out- like the forgotten drs appt?

p.s you said you are going to mention spending more time as a couple- and see what happens?

Does that mean you expect him to make all the plans-or does it mean you will see what e says?

I know how hard it is to fit things in around the kids and work, but it comes down to priorities. It doesn't take that much effort to do say 2 things together each month , as your kids are quite old now. it just takes planning.

Think of what you have in your life- family, marriage, work- which is most important to you? If you don't work at your marriage, then your family will suffer. if you could manage on less money, then maybe you need to think about working less.

Sorry if this sounds hard, but you do sound as if you are blaming him for it all, rather than looking at your par t too.

Thanks hls. I can and will arrange time out for us together...however I resent that it's always me who makes the running when we've got into this kind of situation before. I know I need to talk to him about this.

I also think we need to change our social lives so that we substitute being together as a couple with being with friends so much...it does mean not seeing friends which is a shame, but the balance is wrong...we do too much of that and have little "time off" just on our own, without dc, and not discussing practical issues but having some fun.

After 20-odd years he's not going to change...I've tried hard enough. What I need to decide if I can live with his frustrating behaviour...although he's a decent guy, he can be incredibly self-centred and quite arrogant...in work he coasts along, which is fine, but I feel he also coasts along in our marriage and I'm the one who puts the effort in.

We could manage without less money, and in fact I've just switched to a work pattern which gives me more flexibility and slightly less income. But it would mean a massive change in both our careers to make a change which would make a significant difference and tbh that's not what either of us want...it is something we've discussed.

He has just had an enforced change of job within his company and is quite stressed about it - unlike me, he's someone who very much dislikes change.

Thanks to anyone who's stayed with my ramblings...it's been therapeutic to be questioned and to think out loud here...much cheaper and more time-efficient than counselling!

I don't know if this is helpful, but it sounds like you are quite resentful about the fact that you put the effort into your relationship and he doesn't.
Does it make sense, that if the relationsip is worth working at then it doesn't matter who does the work, and if he's a selfish prick then no matter how much work you put in it won't work anyway?
What I mean is, can you focus less on the fact that you are the one doing the running, and more on the question of whether the running gets you anywhere?
Sorry, muddled metaphors.

Feel free to ignore if not of use.

P.S. Is he someone who shuts down emotionally when stressed?

Yes, I am resentful that I put the effort in and he doesn't...he does improve when I point this out...but then slips back to his old ways. However, he does have a lot of good points.

I do wonder if/how I could get him to be more connected to me on a consistent basis not on-off with me having to nag him to do so...and is it worth the effort? Would the grass be any greener?

I'm the one who shuts down emotionally when stressed, but I'm much better at handling pressure and it doesn't happen much...though I think I'm probably perimenopausal and getting more PMT-type symptoms which doesn't help.

If he improves when you point it out, then he does want to, he is obviously just bloody useless at it.
Difficult to know how to take it forward. FWIW, I have heard that one very good way to decide if a marriage is worth working at or not (if there are children involved) is,
Can I explain a separation to the children in a way that makes sense to me, and that they will grow up to respect?
I don't mean the nitty-gritty details, I mean that at the age of 21 when you and your child are talking about why you left Dad, there need to be some pretty good reasons that you can point to.
Now growing apart and him not putting any effort in any more COULD be valid reasons, but you'd have to be a hundred per cent certain that you could say that with integrity, ten years or whatever down the line, and feel that it was 'enough' to leave him for.
Or else you run the danger of your kids feeling sorry for dad and thinking you walked out on him for nothing.
Sorry if that sounds negative, it isn't meant to, just a different way of looking at it?

But re-reading your initial post, living with a grumpy man can be hell, and it would be perfectly OK I think to say "I don't want this any more."