there are loads of posts relating to this, but I have been unhappy in our relationship for a long while. In brief - we moved for dh's work, he works long hours (not as long as some I know, but long for me) meaning he doesnt see ds for more than 30 mins a day (if we are lucky), we had to cancel a holiday as he was called into work, I feel like he wants the weekends for himself and that he doesnt want to spend time as a family. the end result is that I am VERY unhappy.
we went away for a few days round friends, and the same things are happening again - he hardly helped out with ds for the first few days, left me wheeling a screaming ds round a site and eventually going home alone while he took photos, ds was really whingy in the night and dh got rather arsey to us both about it.
I think we entered the break with different expectations - he wanted time to relax and do his own thing, and I wanted us to be together as a family.
we had a discussion this evening and dh concluded that we are not happy together, regardless of his working hours, and that we should split up. I have been entertaining the idea myself for a while now, but now the decision has been made, I am not sure it is the right one.
I dont know what I want, or what to do.
please someone talk to me.

Maybe some time apart will help you both to reassess things.

sorry that you are having a horrible time

life is stressful

new jobs are stressful

moving is stressful

having young children is stressful

splitting up is not going to suddenly make you more of a family and you want family time and it is not going to make life less stressful

you had different expectations of the break..but did you talk about it beforehand? do you talk ? communication and dialogue so important

Relate? counselling? mediation?

yes, I think you are right, but it doesnt appear to be happening that way.
I havent asked him to move out - our house is already up for sale as we were moving, and we have just said we will sell it and split up.

it sounds such a frivolent deicsion doesnt it.

we have been here a while before, but things got better then went back to where they are again. I dont think he wants to work on it anymore

Sounds like you have both made the decision without much talking, if that makes sense. Have you thought about counselling? Would he consider anything like that?

milly - do you mean we both decided we should split up, then talked about it and came to that conclusion as that is what we were looking for?

I dont even want to approach him at the minute. maybe tomorrow I could suggest relate. we nearly went before but things were briefly ok again before we went so we cancelled.

Not sure really, Sorry. Not much help am I! I feel for you though. My husband and I separated nearly a year a go. I guess your feeling very confused. Both of you. It is hard isnt it. Do think about relate though, maybe not right away.

Do please go to Relate
Even if ultimately you do both decide to split, some Relate sessions will help you to discuss the issues in a neutral and supportive environment
They don't aim to make you get back together at all cost
I would recommend talking it through...because actually, the first year after your first child is possibly the hardest time you will ever endure as a couple. It's frighteningly normal to find each other deeply irritating and unsupportive at times...but it may not mean the end of your partnership.
Good luck ratbunny

Oh you poor thing. That sounds dreadful. How about a trial separation, to help you both see the wood for the trees.

Rat - just popped on from Post-Natal. I'm so sorry but I really really think you should discuss Relate with DH. Big hugs xxxx

I think a trial separation would be a good idea, but I'm not sure how to suggest one.
I recently stayed with some friends with ds but without dh, and he did say he missed us both a lot. but when we got back things went back to where they were.
now with the whole 'lets sell the house and go our separate ways' I am not sure how to ask him to move out for a trial period.
or how to suggest relate without him saying its all pointless.
I feel like we have fought ourselves into a corner - like I said, I have been entertaining the idea of leaving for a while, and I think he has too. But I'm not sure if that;s really what we both want.

(and it's our anniversary tomorrow )

thanks wilkie

If you are not sure what you want then tell him now. Before its too late. This is a big decision, be as honest as you can.

Don't stay away from the thread - we miss you and can offer plenty of shoulders to cry on if you need us!

thanks wilkie that cheered me up a bit! I just havent had anything happy / positive to say on the thread for a while, and don't want to be just moaning and bringing everyone down

Trust me, you daft sod, you are not the only one. I am moaning cos of relocating, Susie is going through a tough time with DH, Lizz DS has CP and MrsC has been diagnosed with cervical cancer.

We are there to support each other, please come back.

<<<<massive virtual hug>>>>

Am I the only one thinking he opted for the easy way out?
This is such a classic situation with a young family. He just wants it all.

I would also strongly suggest counseling.

I was in a similar position.

DH works looooooooong hours. Sees DS 30mn in the day. Plays with him 15 and then shoos him off to mummy.
I do not mind doing the main caring during the week.

We also moved for work (3 countries continents in the last 4 years) and his general attitude was typically what you describe during your break. Different expectations.
He did not realise that I could feel very isolated in a toddler twilight zone . That although I was grateful to be a sahm for these precious first years, I had actually given up a life (work/social) so that we could take these few years to become a family.

He has changed a lot in the last year though. We did not go to counseling. We did a lot of talking and both realised what the "expectations gap" was.

It's just the very common situation in a young family.
The woman does the main caring for kids, turns into a mum rather than a wife. Too chattered to make efforts with partner. Partner thinks YOU changed rather that THE SITUATION has changed. He carries on thinking and behaving like a childless couple and you resent him for the selfishness. He resents you for pointing that out to him. vicious circle.

You can get through this but he's got to realise it takes 2 to tango.
I came to terms with the fact that yes he does work hard and needs "me" time . But he also learned to give in somehow. To us as a family and to us as a couple.
We both make efforts to give ourselves time and attention to nurture our couple.

Don't let him get off the hook so easily but do listen to his grievances and get counseling if you hit the wall.

Very well said slim.

slim - that is exactly right! he is acting like a childless person still. and yes, I think it would be an easy option for him for us to be separated - how much less he would have to see ds (but then he might also have to spend a whole day with him too, instead of being just in and out!)
how did you get past the 'expectations gap'? he seems to think he spends loads of time with us (not like he is doing it for him, but for me iyswim), but I think he spends loads of time doing his hobbies...

Oh my God no. Don't split up a family just coz things are a bit bumpy. Please no.

If he beats you, makes you cry all day or gets you into so much debt you can't see a way out or is so vilely unfaithful that you can not see a life together beyond it, then you have a good reason to abandon the marriage.

Surely you can rub along for a bit until things get better. Try to look for the good in him. My DH does sweet FA for the kids but he does bring inthe money and they adore him and he will do it if nagged relentlessly. It helps that i adore him too. But sometimes I don't.

Please please please don't be so light hearted about causing your child to grow up the product of a broken home. Kids hate it. If you can see a way through please do.

Sorry to go on. But your message made me feel so so sad.

if you still love each other then you can get through this.and come out the other side.

and post-natal threads are 90% moaning arent they?

flum - it has been a bit more than bumpy. we have been arguing about this for many many months now, and things have gone up and down a lot.
I dont think I want to break up with him. But the onus is really on him. I dont know how to get him to change his mind - which is why a trial separation or relate is much more preferable. I think we need some space from each other temporaraily and some help - selling the house and splitting up isnt the answer for me.
we really arent happy, but I don't know how to get through to him about how we can go forward together

the onus is on both of you I believe!

Seriously, it sounds like neither of you can express how you really feel and Relate or similar would help a LOT with that

pls do try that before a trial separation

I feel very sad for you Ratbunny. This is a horrible, horrible experience. I really hope you can resolve it and stay together. Families are so important.

Well the turning point was when I said we'd be better off without him.

I said I'm young, smart and want and can easily get more of life. I'm obviously the main carer for DS so check that one too he comes with me.

DS and me are a family and we'll stick through thick and thin because there is no turning back the clock.

He can't cope? Then go ahead and get a bachelor pad and do his own laundry and feel free to entertain himself as he pleases without guilt.

TBH I was really convinced that I would be better off just DS and me. I think he sensed for the first time that I was not merely annoyed by his attitude but was starting to thinking in "me" terms like him.

Now how we took it from there:

Make a pact to be gentle and loving towards each other. Forget about DS for a second and rekindle the romance. Have sex, talk, go out. Learn how to be a couple again and then start over learning how to be parents together.

Of course we are all different and relationship move in mysterious ways. So that's not a blueprint, just my experience.

slim - that was kind of like what just happened with us more or less. I said I felt like I was alone anyway, then he took it to the next step. but now I feel so sad for ds.

just had a chat to dh, and he has agreed to go to relate. I think he sees it as me being demanding towards him and his hobbies, while I see it that he isnt living with us as a family (does that make sense? as someone said - he is still living like he is childless)
but I am worried as I tend to clam up in arguments. I hate confrontation, and tend to see things from the other persons point of view. I am scared this will all end up with me agreeing that I ask too much of him and not addressing the needs of our family.

Oh I really feel for you.

You are both entrenched in your positions.
You are asking too much of him if you want him to give up his hobbies. He does need downtime. We all do.

He's just got to understand that you feel the same. Only your "me" time you happily sacrifice at the moment so that you can have family time. He should at least recognize that.

Relate will help. Your are in a classic situation. They have seen it time and over and will guide you.

The other thing we discussed with DH was what being married meant.

We both agreed that we should not wave the threat of separation unless we really meant it.
If after lots of soul searching you decide individually that is what is best.

One has to reach that point of selfishness and be honest about it.

If he sincerely thinks his freedom and comfort is rated above making efforts to save his marriage and his relationship with a child he chose to have, then what can I say? You will be better off without him.

It's too easy to just say I'm unhappy I want out. It prevents any serious discussion. It's just a way to exonerate yourself if you can't look deep down into your motives.

Excellent advice from slim22. I am relieved for you, RB, that he wants to go to relate. Sincerely hopes it will help you all.

Ratbunny, I hope that you and your dh work things out.

I really needed to read this thread as things are difficult at the moment between dp and me. Thankyou Flum and slim for your words of advice.

Take care ladies.

I'm quite old school regarding marriage: you don't just give up for comfort.
Some have the opposite view: You don't just stay for comfort.

Both are valid. As long as partners are honest with themselves and talk it through between them even if that might hurt.

Can you get away somewhere on your own. No kid. Be the old you for a bit.

Do you have a proper dinner most nights at a table, with wine, and make-up and perfume on and the lights low so you can't see the (laundry basket and lego)? I think that helps a lot to avoid the feeling of being only a Mum and him seeing you that way.

slim - you are so right - I used to go to martial arts on a saturday but happily gave it up when dh said it interefered with saturdays too much (the class was right in the middle of the day).

sorry, this is just me writing to get it off my chest now.
I am here cos I went to bed and couldnt sleep - I felt so angry towards dh (this hasnt dissipated since we cancelled our holiday). I just feel like he wants (and gets) so much for himself - the latest thing he wants is a motorbike! - when I dont do it for myself. myabe I should, but the only things I want involve 'doing' things (like travel, days out, active things), and we dont have time for that. I can only give so much, and I feel like I have reached breaking point.

now I dont know what to do.
I didnt manage to make an appointment at relate as they were closed, and now dh says dont bother. he says he will move out, and all I can think is that hopefully he will miss us.
Its funny - to me this argument was about something to work on, to be more of a family. to him it has a totally different meaning, and he thinks we are totally incompatible and cant be bothered anymore.

ratbunny I know how you feel and I really hope things work out for you, going to relate is a really good step and the first few sessions may be very difficult, god knows I've been there, dh and I are currently trying to work things out after he walked out almost 6mths ago for various reasons, he'd even started divorce and I'd signed the papers but now we are doing couple counselling on the level of working out our issues and he talks now about when he comes home and not if.

having a children changes the dynamics of every relationship some people weather it better than others, you lose sight of each other and focus on your little one (which isn't a bad thing) priorities change and so does your lifestyle. And like Slim said its so much easier to walk away when you are unhappy than to stay and work it out, just hope everything works out.

Relate do some really good books, one i got was I love you but i'm not in love with you by Andrew Marshall, really good

Oh Im so sorry to hear this.
Bumping for those who've been there before and can help.....

Have you been arguing a lot lately or are you just ignoring eachother?

Oh, Ratbunny, I'm so sorry. I don't know what to say now, except do you think it's time to work on you rather than him? You can't change his mind although, hopefully, he will miss you, as you say.
I wonder if it isn't time to start working out what you need and deserve, what your dc needs and deserves, and whether or not dh is capable of delivering. It isn't all about love. There has to be kindness, liking and respect, too.

Yes littlewoman you are right!
Kindness and respect for you and *his child * FGS!

What an immature thing to do!
Listen, you need to start preparing yourself for the fact that he may not come back.
And also that if he does miss you and even comes back begging you'll keep a level head and explain in no uncertain terms that he has breached your trust and let his child down.

Any family or frind in RL that can mediate? (well if there is someone you both love and trust to open up to, otherwise leave them well out of it)

thank everyone for your support. I am rather burying my head in the sad. It feels so out of the blue, and I just expect him to go away for a bitm then come back. you are right, I DO need to prepare myself for the fact that he might not.

well this morning I reitereated that I dont want him to go and that we can work things out. He came back with how when he goes on his computer or gts his camera out I make him feel guilty.
I guess I have given him a hard time about it, but thats cos I always felt like I battled with him to spend time with us not doing his hobbies, especially when he was always working so late. he used to spend all morning on his computer before going to work, then not even see s in the evening cos he got back from work late. then, at the weekend, we would go out as a family and he would bugger off taking photos, leaving me with s just like I am every week day. See any of my previous posts about how he does bugger all round the house, and how I feel like I compete with his work.
so now I think he is being a selfish git, and by moving out he will have time for his hobbies AND still get to see s.
there's no winning really.

but now I am also scared - he will have all the time he wants to go out etc, and once again it's ME who will not be able to go to sports clubs etc, and I dont have any single friends to go out with either - everyone I know has young kids / babies. I think - how CAN I move on when I dont get time for myself?

and to answer slim - dh has been spending a lot of time on his hobbies and ignoring me and ds recently, and that has led to lots of arguments.

Dh did the hobbies thing when ds was born. He pursued a hobby every weekend leaving me isolated and alone. It very nearly destroyed our marriage. Eventually I said that I could not go on in this way any longer and I was more lonely than I had ever been in my life. He was shocked and I realised that he really had no clue how isolating the entire experience was. I told him that of course he was entitled to pursue his hobbies but for every hour he did something, I had to have a corresponding hour. We soon ended up doing more family things as dh did not like to be alone too much with ds.

Does he really understand your position? If not, can you talk? If he does not want to talk and just intends leaving, then perhaps you should discuss contact details with him. Maybe he can have ds Sat and you Sun so you both get some down time at the weekend. Perhaps having to spend an entire day alone with ds will either (a) improve their bond or (b) make him realise how bl*&y hard work it is and that you really were not going on about nothing.

However, I also agree that you need to prepare yourseslf for the prospect that he might not come back.

thanks for all of your advice and support

I have been talking to a rl friend about this. dh wans ds every weekend (ds is young and I work 2 days a week, so thats not too much of an issue - maybe 3 in 4 weekends?). either he will have to give up his hobbies to look after ds from sat til sunday. OR (which worries me) dh will carry on his hobbies and ignore ds's needs.

I am unsure whether he realises how isolated i feel while he is off doing stuff.

I am booking a session at relate, either for both of us or just for me. Its a step.

It's very hard to prepare yourself for the fact that he may not come back, especially if you have been together for a long while, because you really can't imagine that they WON'T come back. It almost like you belong together. But sometimes they don't, sadly. So if you can start to look at yourself as an individual already, and focus your aims on you and your ds, rather than doing things in the hopes he will change his mind, it will help incase he does decide to stay away.
For example, don't get your hair and nails done in the hope that he will see how gorgeous you really are, do it because you are going to need all the confidence you can get for facing the world alone (IYSWIM). That way, you are prepared for the worst and really strengthened in your appreciation of your own worthwhileness, and if he comes back it's a bonus - but you are no longer dependent on him.

Wishing you all the best, Ratbunny.

GooseyLoosey has a very good point with alternate days on weekends.

I think it will be a total shock for him to spend a whole day as sole carer for DS. That might wake him up to the fact that it's non stop and you have zero downtime.

Why don't you agree to trial separation on the condition that he spends a full day every weekend with DS.
For DS's sake of course but also to give you some leisure time but you'll never admit to that of course!

little woman - tbh I am not even sure I want him back - not with things as they are. I want to work on it - to work out a compromise so we can stay happy as we often are together, but without the resentment on both sides.

slim - you have loads of good advice! absolutely right about how it would shock him to look after ds for 2 full days. but I would be tempted to say sat morning til sunday morning, so I can have a night off!!

Sorry I have only had time to read the OP, but my question is this Ratbunny:

Where does your ds enter into your dp's plan for his new life if you DO go your separate ways.

Is he planning to be involved?
Does he realise that this means time with your ds all by himself where he is primarily responsible for ds?
Does he plan to abandon your ds just because the two of you are no longer together.

I would be very clear with dp that EVEN IF THE relationship ends with you, he MUST always be available for ds, so your lives can never be completely separate.

I do know of relationships that have run their course where the father has become more involved with the children and where both parents are then free to lead their own lives, but they are unfortunately not the norm.

The two of you need to make the right decision for yourselves, but as you know the wellbeing of your ds should be forefront in BOTH of your minds (meaning dp too) if you decide to split.

Sorry if I have not been particularly helpful and I am so sorry to hear about your situation.

How are you holding on.

See this thread.

You are not alone

here

thanks slim
dh and I sat down for a long and calm chat last night. we talked about loads of things to do with our relationship, and I think the issue is really that we are not spending time as a couple. perhaps I wouldnt resent his long hours and hobbies if we still spent time together.
when I think back, it's really when we had ds that problems really started. and since then I can count on 1 hand the number of times we have been out together as just us.
I still want family time, but we tend to 'be' with ds rather than each other.
so he is staying for the time being, but we have loads to work on, and he is coming to relate with me. there are still issues though - we are planning on going to the zoo tomorrow, and we have had a short discussion about him taking his camera. and neither of us were very happy...
but we are friends again
but now I think we can work through it..

One step at a time. Be patient with each other.

Find a good babysitter. I know they are not cheap but one evening or saturday afternoon just the 2 of you, once in a while is money really really well spent at this stage in your relationship.

And it's give and take. Why are you so rigid about the camera. You ARE having a family day out aren't you?

Only just read this - and it sounds so familar.

I read a book which really helped me - one section was about relationships and said that your partner should be your best friend and that you should treat him like one. That really struck a chord with me and once i statrted being 'nicer' to h we started to get on better.

Little things like thinking about him (making cups of tea, a meal he likes, arranging something just for him.....). Show him how its done first - what would you like him to do for you? One thing i did was to run a bath for h and light some candles, poured him a glass of wine and let him have a bath in peace. It soon was my turn .

You cant 'change' him but if you show him how it can be i am sure he will soon learn.

I agree about having some time for you as a couple too.

Could you make some sort of rules? Each have some 'you' time some couple time and some family time.

Make a list of places to go as a family and say once a month make it your outing.

When things dont go to plan rather than looking for whos fault it is try and forget it and make more effort in the future.

You seem to still have some resentment for the holiday (which is understandable) but to move forward you must now make sure it will not happen again.

Dont make everything a competion either - be kind to each other and yourselves - you will make mistakes - but if you both threaten to throw the towel in at the first problem you will both be too scared to really open up to how you are both feeling. You need to both make a commitment to really give this your best shot.

If you can do this for yourself he will either see what a fantastic person you really are and want to give it a try or still leave in which case you will know you have done everything you can and will know it really was not meant to be.

Good luck and i hope it works out for you.

I thought I would carry on this post rather than start a new one.
We went to Relate and it wasnt really helpful tbh. We are on a waiting list now.
But we became friends again, got babysitters and went out, started having better sex etc. I thought things were going pretty well and we were on the mend.
I recently went away with friends for a weekend (this has been booked for a while - since the last holiday fell through). I called him every day, and he seemed fine.
But when we got home he said he wanted a trial separation. Just when I thought everything was on the mend!!!!
He claims our sex life is still rubbish, our life is twee, I dont do things anymore, I have too many demands of him to do things as a family.
It seems to me like there is no point in carrying on with him anymore. I thought things were improving, but in his eyes they werent. Basically he wants to be free to do his own stuff (imo) and doing stuff with ds when it suits him.
I told him if he wants a trial separation then he can go, and he wont be coming back. If he goes away, spends his time doing HIS stuff, no pressure to join in the family etc, how can coming back seem better?
I told him he can go off, find someone to have great sex with daily, see ds once a week, do all of his hobbies when he wants, and basically be single again. Meanwhile me and ds will struggle financially, I wont go out as we left my friends when we moved here.
Then he said, maybe we can work on it.

But really I dont know if I can be bothered anymore. How can me and ds compete against freedom? How will I ever know if things are working, if they seem ok to me, but are crap to him?

any advice?

you have explained to him that as a father he can't do stuff as he pleases and have a good relationship with his child. Does he really think if he walks away he can then dictate when and how he spends his time with his child?

Maybe you need to get some control back by saying 'ok - you leave, you make the decision, you have this freer life, but that's it, no chances to come back, no retrying' and also tall him that you will be sorting out when and how he gets to see his child and he will have to fit in with your plans rather than it be the other way round.

I did actually do that beanie.
Sadly I think he will be happy spending 1 day + night a week with ds. Ds will miss his daddy, but tbh dh doesnt spend that much time with him anyway at the mo. Maybe 1/2 hr before and after work (that is, being in the same room as him), and a bit at the weekend. So ds might actually get MORe quality time with him if we split up.

He just constantly moans about not being able to go out and do his hobbies. But I recently arranged a baby sitter so we could go somewhere together, with is work mates. Turns out the baby sitters wasnt there for long enough, so we went somewhere closer. He never told me (and probably didnt even know) they were going somewhere 150 miles away, the other side of London. Bascially, he wants to go out all day every weekend doing his own stuff. So if we do separate, he gets his cakes AND eats it imo.

Then he has the audacity to say I dont do mine anymore - I DID do mine, but he complained that it interefered with our weekend (class was 3pm on Sat, so it DID interefere with any days out) so I gave it up, no fuss.

I honestly dont know if I can be bothered to fight for time with him anymore....

He basically wants to split because he wants more time to do his hobbies. That would make me so mad, specially after you've tried so hard to make it work

You know, ratbunny, I have been reading books recently about relationships what with h and I going through a really bad phase, and one thing that I thought relates to your situation is that sometimes it is not what you get out of a relationship, it is what you put in.
It really sounds like your h just isn't putting anything into the relationship.
He sounds selfish. He is part of a family but wants to act single.
I am so sorry you are going through this
I bet there is a much happier future waiting for you just round the corner

Ratbunny so sorry to hear you are going through this. No advice to offer I'm afraid, but ((hugs))