Pages, it stays, however I have been informed it is a 1000 post limit (due to loading time) however Tech can reopen to allow extra posts if neccessary.
May I suggest another title...something that encourages people to look if they don't know yet that they were abused or had realisation as yet...
'But we took you to Stately Homes' - family problems? Unhappy with parents/stepparent/siblings? All welcome to unload here' Or something less longwinded inspiration has not struck as yet!
And another idea...how about a 2nd thread set up, one that is for us to recommend links and do book reviews. It would be so much easier to find them rather than going back tho 200 pages to find that 'really useful book someone mentioned in about may/jun/jul 07 time...'
We could also sell/buy abuse books on there, amazon can be quite dear and I know I cannot get to a big bookshop easily. MN may have issue with that tho? Should be okay...shall I check?
<gasps for breath>
And don't forget to summarise your story...and your last meeting with your mum...v inspirational.
<sits back and waits for new thread to appear as if by magic>
Oh and hi Tilly! Will get round to looking at post...I'm having to skim read then shoot off to do things at home at mo...xmas cards today <shudder> glad you found us! Esp at xmas time!
Dietizima, put yourself first now. You have enough on your plate. Your mum is only alone and lonely because of the way she behaved. You can't treat your children as she did and expect them to be around in your old age. But for now, let your adult little brother fend for himself. Let him fly the nest...which is effectively what you are doing as his surrogate mother.
My brother who has just caught some flack is 8 years younger, and yes I did care for him a great deal when he was a child. My mother was too wrapped up in herself and her messed up relationship to care for him properly so I became a second mum/advocate for him. Other brother is 6 years older and I imagine he felt he had to be a second dad to me.
I think I'm feeling the need to protect younger brother, I always felt like I had to because no-one else would. He's an adult now, though and I think it would be no bad thing for him to understand what mum is capable of.
Just re-read the last few posts and wanted to say sorry for overlooking your post Tilly, and welcome to the thread.
It's interesting how there are a couple of common themes here: a) having your own child dragging up the feelings from your own childhood (realising the unbelievable feelings of love and prtection we feel for ur dc must have been absent or very lacking in our own mothers) and b) those of us who wer abused by dads/stepdads feel indifferent to the father but feelings are much more complicated towards the mothers who stood by and let it happen. If a mother desn't protect her young, who the hell else is going to?
Yes, Tilly. my mum too had a shit life. It's true, I don't doubt it, but you know everything that happened to me happened to her ten times as bad with knobs on, my life hasn't been easy but there is NO WAY my dc are going to suffer because of it.
I too seriously wish for 2008 that each and every one of you wakes up one day to find that the pain has gone and that your mother, like mine, has melted. Your DH sounds very mature, Tilly.
Sakura thank you so much for your post, I was in tears reading it this morning. I think you are right in that having awareness of ourselves is half the battle but I worry that however hard I try with my DD, because of the unmet need in me it is asking an impossibility of myself to fully give my DD what she needs from me because I simply do not have it to give to her. In a way it’s as if in the same way the bad stuff can be passed on from generation to generation so too the good stuff is passed on, but only if it was given in the first place. What I needed wasn’t given to me by my mum and therefore I can’t give it to my daughter.
I have only recently had the ‘realisation’ about how much my mum let me down and I can say that I don’t think I have yet retrieved all my memories in relation to my mum and ‘felt’ the pain that I felt as a child and indeed as so many of you have mentioned the pain she continued to cause me right until i cut her off. I have been through that process in relation to my dad and I remember one evening, luckily my DH was there and comforted me, I just cried and cried as if my heart was breaking at the thought of how he could have done what he did to me, his own daughter who was just 11 years old at the time. But I fear that the pain caused by my mother is far greater and runs much deeper than that caused by my dad and I am, right now, simply not ready to face up to or feel the pain in order to release it.
I do sincerely hope though that when I am ready to face up to the pain and anguish she caused me, that by doing so I will be free of the burden she put upon me and I will be able to then begin having some feeling towards my daughter. That is the only way I can see of not continuing this cycle through her, as of course there is no way now that my needs as a child can be met. I remember once my DH saying to me that he felt I was looking to him for unconditional love when in reality it is only my parents that could have loved me in this way. At the time I think we had had an argument about something unimportant (as it usually is!) and I must have told him that I felt he didn’t love me. He told me he did love me but he suspected that I was looking for the kind of love that he was not able to give me and that I was looking for the love that a parent gives to his child. I knew there was probably some truth in what he said at the time but I had not long been on this journey then; now I know that what he said was absolutely right, I am still now looking for the unconditional love that I didn’t receive as a child and that I so badly needed. I know my DH loves me but I guess his love sometimes feels lacking because I still need and want the love my parents never gave me and it is only they who can fill the need in me…….but that is never going to happen as I know that they will never change. It’s strange as I should feel sad knowing that probably all my life I will have this need for parental love that will never and can never be fulfilled but I don’t. Perhaps at the moment the realisation that this is the case is all that my mind can process, and the pain will come later.
Gosh, sorry I am rambling, I have been wanting to get my thoughts out all day but haven’t had the opportunity til now and now I’ve started I can’t stop!
Danae, I totally know what you mean about feeling completely freaked out at the thought of a visit from your mother. I would feel the same way if I were in your situation. My parents do have my address, but I know that they would never dare to come here, perhaps because of the letter I wrote to them earlier in the year telling them why I have cut them off and I know I wrote in big, bold capital letters many times that I hate them and that if I ever laid eyes on them I would kill them both with my bare hands! That sounds awful I know, but it’s how I felt at the time, I was very angry when I wrote the letter but I think it did the trick and I have not heard a peep out of them since and I hope it remains that way.
Pages, you are doing so well to be at the stage where contact from your parents doesn’t bother you. You are absolutely right in saying that that is the greatest liberation from a toxic parent. My counsellor told me that he still receives quite nasty letters from his parents (he was abused as a child) and he says it’s like water off a ducks back to him. I personally don’t know how I’d feel if I got a letter from my parents at this stage of my journey; but just thinking about it right now makes my heart pound and I feel scared at the thought so I know I still have some way to go. Sometimes I’m walking down my street and I see a man who from a distance looks like my dad and I start feeling physically sick especially the first few times I saw him. Now when see him I know it’s not my dad but I still feel a bit shaky. I'm sure you are well aware as i am that your mum is unlikely to ever become non-toxic and acceptance of that is a kind of liberation i suppose.
Dizietsma, I feel for you. Don't forget you have the understanding and support of everyone on this thread, we'll help you get through the next few weeks.
I suppose I am luckier than some of you over christmas as i know my parents won't attempt to make any contact, i think they got the message from my very angry letter to them.
dizietima, your brothers are how old? Did you used to look after them a lot? I'm just aware from what you said, it takes me back to what my therapist said to me this week about my caring for other people and not letting them be adult enough to look after themselves/decide what's best for them...
Anyone else intimidated by how many posts there are to catch up with? Each day that passes the busier it gets! I'm backing up to 4th dec at the mo...and got my xmas cards to write this weekend so that's another 3 days worth of posts to catch up on!
Oh, and did you like the "Your mother" bit? It struck me as really funny, I could hear it in a victorian parent type voice, "I am your mother, and just you remember that, you ungrateful little wench!"
PS Sorry Ditzietsma that you are having a hard time. It is a hard time of year, and you're right, seems to be bringing out the Festive toxicity in our "old and lonely" (of their own making) mothers.
Sakura, you've summed it up I just wanted to see a couple of your reactions before I told you mine, and that is that it is way too little, a little too late. She has thrown me a grudging defensive crumb not offered a heartfelt apology, and yes, I'm sure she thinks "I've said I'm sorry, what more do you want?" but I am not even going to ask her for any more, or to work through anything with me because I will be whistling in the wind.
I wouldn't really have expected her to say "Yes I am a toxic and bad mother" but the bit "I did my best and at times that was not good enough for you" just said it all for me - i.e. she still thinks her best would have been good enough for any other child - it's just me that is too greedy, demanding, needy, etc, etc (all the things she has always made me feel that I am, whenever I ask for anything from her that she hasn't already decided she is going to give me).
Thanks for being angry on my behalf guys, but I am really not upset, surprised or anything else by it.
I am so glad my post to Danae was uplifting for you Sakura, that was my intention.
Ally, absolutely PMSL at your cat, had to read it out to DH
I have a feeling this thread is going to explode over the festive season.
I'm adding my vote that the next thread be called "But we took you to stately homes..." Or perhaps "Mother did it have to be so high?", but I'm a Floyd fan
It's so hard this time of the year. I'm trying to concentrate on DD and DH, but Mum's been calling about presents for DD and I've had to hang up on her a couple of times. She's now taking it out on my brothers. It's weird, I feel guilty. Like I'm responsible for her picking on them, probably because I've previously been the focus of her negativity. She's isolating herself and I feel bad for her, I've no doubt her xmas will seem rather cheerless. She turned 60 recently, her abusive partner died 6 years ago and I think that she now feels that she's Old and Alone. I've told her that if she wants to resume contact with me then we can start rebuilding our relationship in therapy, but she flat out refuses. Ironically, she's a Psychologist.
Ugh. I'm just hoping I can make it through the festive season without letting this make me cry.
Present for dd, present for me from my parents cat, all I can say is that she has impressive present wrapping skills, AND she can do joined up handwriting. Bet no one else has a cat that can do that. And we have 3 cards, one for each of us. Dh's is signed 'mothers name' mine has a sickly (she KNOWS I detest crappy soppy lovey dovey pass me the bucket NOW poems/songs whatever...again...complete lack of empathy for how I may feel, in her view its showing her 'love' for me) and card for my dd which I have not opened. My mother should know by now that I understand just how important privacy is to a child because I never had any from her or my sister. Ooh I'm angry! However discussed what to do with therapist if I got anything from her...talked about not opening it, or opening it and 'choosing' how to feel. Okay...have opened it. She will never give me what I want ie unconditional love and acceptance and a big fat genuine apology and acknowledgement of her abuse of me and her allowing my sister to abuse me too. So I choose to chuck cards. Put dd present and card in loft with rest of them. And go and make some more bread. I will mention to dh. Then 'choose' to forget it. Its emotional blackmail, yet again, if I fall for that one again she will only put the boot in when she next gets an opportunity. So move on. Okay...moving on now...still feel bit shaky...yes go get bread ready...give it a bloody good kneading...
I'm an adult I'm an adult I'm an adult. Don't depend on her emotionally anymore, she's the wrong person to depend on. Who mentioned adopt-a-gran?
Your Mother takes the cake doesn't she?!. Its a typical toxic parent reaction to being confronted as you no doubt realise.
She's basically saying, "I said I was sorry what more do you want?" (particularly like - NOT - the part, "and that is my last word on the subject"). Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it. Your Mother is showing no indication that she wants to do anything about it.
A response to this could be along the lines of - "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."
Have you ever read the publication "When you and your Mother cannot be friends". Think I need to read that one.
Hi all...New to the thread but have just had a good read. You all sound so strong and brave ... a real inspiration
I was abused by my step dad as a child. My mother did nothing and is still with him. My feelings for him are straightforward...I despise him. My feelings for my mother are so much more complicated.
She too in her own way was abusive...Not as literally as my sd but she has always made it clear that I was "a mistake" and I wrecked her life.. She is bitter and twisted and jealous and I know that the relationship I have with her is toxic.
I had a lot of counselling in my 20's and thought I had found peace (after making some serious life fuck ups along the way).. I have never confronted her and maintained a distant relationship (seeing/speaking to her maybe once every couple of months)
However, I had my first child in May this year and since then, my whole relationship with my mum and what she did and didn't do has become a major part of my life again.
I suppose its obvious that having a child would raise these emotions - but I just cuddled my dd and sobbed to dp that I can never imagine how anyone could give birth and not do anything and everything to protect and nurture their child. The overwhelming sense of love and protection was immediate and has never gone away.
My mum has her own demons and her life has been pretty shit (something I know she would throw in my face if I were to confront)... but I am getting to the stage where I feel ready to confront her (and him) and actually want them out of my life..
OH pages, First of all, I want to say that I was so uplifted by your last post to Danae, because of what you said about the your stand towards your mother changing your perspective of things for good. I really still hope for that day. It was also good to read that you are okay to receive letters from her now. I remember my mother's last letter (the one that said I was born bad, a "special" child) and I just felt like I'd been kicked in the stomach, so I just curled up in bed with the covers over me until I was forced to get out to tend to DD. I really hope I can reach your state of mind someday. But anyway, your mother's letter. She is basically doing what Alice Miller(?) believes is the worst thing a parent can do; to deny a child's grievances and pretend the child's memories and thoughts don't exist. I am so angry for you. Its easy to see that your mother is so fragile that if she admits even a tiny weakness or mistake, her whole crappy life is going to come crashing down around her shoulders and she is adamant that this is not going to happen. But you are (rightly) adamant that she should be held accountable for her hurtful behaviour. As we said, this is not just about our childhood, this is about hurtful behaviour that is continuing to this day. And if we let this one go, when is the next nasty or hurtful comment going to arrive to drive a tank through our world again? No, she has to be held accountable, that is , to say sorry for a hurtful thing she has done. If she can't be responsible for her own actions, like a child, then she can't be trusted to not do it again. This was my main problem with my mother. Where does the hurt end? What- she can keep hurting me and I should keep pretending she hasn't? Forget the childhood stuff, what about her behaviour now?
Reading what she wrote, I just see a brick wall in front of me. She is just trying to protect herself, that is obvious, but what she doesn't realise is that those words "I do not accept and never will" are so extremely hurtful, because we feel that a mother should put her child before her self.
Someone else said a good point before. That if my daughter didn't know that I loved her by a certain age (say 18) I would take a good, hard look at my parenting choices. I would search for things that could have messed up the relationship with her, and (even if I believed the argument was partly her fault) ,as her mother, I would be a mother, back down and offer her the unconditional acceptance, and understanding that I think a mother should offer. this may sound idealistic, but I think mothers are given the gift of having the power to shape their child's world and this shouldn't be used to their advantage and abused i.e "I'll be your mother when it suits me, when I can have control over you, but not if it involves me giving of myself to you"
But sorry if this post sounds too harsh, pages. Maybe you see a pitiful woman in that letter. I'm just imagining the hurt I would feel if my mother had written that, and all of its unwritten subtexts.
(Crossed posts with you Sakura, that way - B&B - is good too Danae if you don't feel like General Custer just now )
So: "Pages, What I do not accept and never will is that I was a toxic or bad mother. Sure I made mistakes, I did my best and at times that was not good enough for you. For that I am sorry. And that is my last word on the subject. I'm sorry my loving concern is seen by you as Rescuing" [last part with reference I believe to the letter where she was allegedly trying to stop me feeling guilty about DS1's SN by telling me my dad was autistic and it was inherited]
sorry for wasting thread space could you meet her somewhere neutral? i you really feel you can't say no to her, could you offer to meet her somewhere for a coffee? With a bit of luck she'll go in a hufty that you set a boundary and tell you not to bother meeting her.
Last xmas I returned to the Uk with 3 month old DD to show my family. My mother invited me for a christmas do at her new place (parent's recently divorced). The last time I was there, she picked a fight and threw me out into the street in the middle of the night 30 minutes before her new boyfrind showed up. This was a very　dodgy area that I didn't know at all. So I declined, telling her I'd meet her for a coffee somewhere in the daytime, knowing that in public she'd have to keep a lid on it. She threw a fit at this boundary setting and thats when she started telling me she was taking me to court to excercise her grandparent's rights to my child, whilst conveniently forgetting I'd agreed to meet her in the first place. It was the boundary that she couldn't handle. she didn' give a shit about seeing DD for the first time. My boundary remained solid: either we meet for coffee or we don't meet at all. Guess which option the "loving" granparent chose?
Danae, I would have no hesitation in telling her politely that she is not welcome and then, if she turns up, shutting the door in her face. Ally's mother behaves in exactly this manner. She is trying to manipulate you, as you well know, and it is absolutely essential for your wellbeing that you stand up to her. You know the reasons why you don't want her there. They are totally valid ones and if she really cared about you she would respect them, (and even try and mend her ways), even if she didn't entirely understand.
IMO the greatest liberation from a toxic parent comes when you don't care that they don't understand your reasons for cutting them out. She will try all the toxic parent reactions - guilt, shame, "what on earth have I done to be turned away from my own daughter's home?" (sob, sob) and then maybe "how can you be so ungrateful? After all I've done for you, we took you to stately homes you know" - just check out the list in "Toxic Parents" and prepare yourself. You may not yet feel comfortable in going against your lifetime training to be dutiful, but you can still "act" as if you do. A bit like people have said to Oneplusone, to "act" as if she has the feelings of connectedness with her daughter is a step on the road to actually feeling them.
When I confronted my mother, I had the same instincts as you (ie to put her feelings first, protect her) but I chose myself over her. Even though I was quaking all the way there and back, my stomach churning and the butterflies pounding at my heart, I acted the most calmly and rationally I have ever done in her presence and standing my ground like that has changed things for ever for me. It's like "Custer's Last Stand" or something (although possibly the first of many rather than the last) but once you have done it and become your own best friend and advocate in the way that she should have been when you were a child, it IMO changes you forever.
For instance, I have today received a letter from my mother and it barely even induced a single butterfly in the tummy! I immediately phoned my bro in OZ, got his wife instead, chattted about other things and then went out (without letter) and got my eyebrows waxed and chatted about Christmas to the beautician and when I got home I thought "Right, what have I got to do now? Xmas cards, shopping list, get washing dry and.... Oh, OMG, haven't told my friends on MN yet about letter. Even a few weeks ago it would have floored me, and had me immobile and unable to do anything for the rest of the day.
It is a choice between her or you, Danae, and I for one choose you. It will be your finest hour, I promise you.
And yes, you will suffer the guilt pangs, the panic attacks, the butterfiles leading up to and afterwards too, but we will be here to catch you!
Oh, I really feel for you. I know how horrifying it is, the thought of your mother coming to your place. I became really irrational, imagining that mine could turn up on my doorstep and I got shakes and shivers and panick attacks, thinking that she would start banging on my door letting all my friendly, middle class neighbours know that I'm a freak from a psycho family. I live in Japan, by the way but I was scared to death of her finding me- she threatened to turn up and I believed her , as though she had magic powers or something. To be fair, she could have got my address from someone, but I couldn't see straight from fear. Eventually after about a month, I got a hold of myself and realised she could only find my appartment with my help, which brings up the second problem- was I brave enough to not help her find me? I realised that not speaking to her or helping her to find me was the height of "disobedience"-after all I'm still a child when it comes to my relationship with her. I felt that by not helping her find me, I would suffer dreadful consequences- horrendous ones (I'd have my child taken off me like she had threatened to take me to court for I'd be thrown in a mental hospital )- none of which have any bearing on reality. The feelings were all just throwback childhood emotions. I had been long ago brainwashed into thinking she was omnipotent and all powerful when it came to my life.
Anyway, lets get some perspective here, I thought to myself in the fourth week of being scared, and so I want to say that to you too. I think you've already made up you mind to be disobedient- you don't want her to come. Thats the hardest part over with. Now its just the logistics you have to deal with: If she's never been to your place, do you think she can find it? Do you know what day she's coming? Can you be out that day all day? Or even better, could you go away for a few days with DD to a B&B. It'd take you out of the situation and you wouldn't be scared to death of her turning up, or being there when you got back from somewhere. Your DH sounds lovely, so maybe he'd understand. I'm sure there will be "consequences" to avoiding her. She might turn all stalkerish and tell you she's coming again in a few weeks time. Okay fine, then you be away again, and again. She will respect your boundaries.
Oneplusone, Your post was amazingly honest. That is half the battle in my opinion- just to acknowledge that we are the way we are. I mean look at Pages's mother who took her to stately homes, so the coldness didn't matter. At least your daughter can come to you in 20 years time and say "Mum, you know, I felt that you were cold towards me as a child", and you can acknowledge her pain and say that you love her and say that you had a lot of emotional problems and that was why you weren't available to her. But that you will keep trying your best and hope that she can understand that you care" Because I think its Alice Miller who said that the worst thing a parent can do to a child is to not acknowledge their childhood pain and I think this is true of everyone on this thread. We were bullied and abused as a child, but if they could just admit it, say sorry then we could all move on, but they won't. I have to be aware of this in myself to. I mean I think I'm doing okay by DD, but in 15 years, she might alert me to some aspect of crap parenting that I had no idea about. I have to prepare myself for that and acknowledge her pain and say I'm sorry I couldn't do that particular thing. Not deny it and tell her I took her to stately homes!
I think acting is fine, really I do. Because it shows that you care, that you have an awareness. On another popular thread, I read that many mumsnetters prefer one of their kids over another. THe thing is, you just don't show it, or try your best not to. For example, I never understand why mothers leave a larger part of their inheritance to one child. I know people this has happened to and just thinkg why. They justified it by saying she had the right to do what she wanted with her money. Fine, yes, but surely it would be better to just act. Just be fair and deal it all out equally. Then she would have been remembered for her compassion. So I think the effort you make with your DD really does count. Maybe even more than for someone where the smiles and hugs come naturally because you're doing it because you don't want her to feel the hurt that you felt and that in itself is a compassionate reason.
Pages, yes no Christmas her because they're not Christians. Its more like Valentines day- a day for couples only. Grandparents and extended family aren't involved.
Oneplusone, you have really helped me understand why my mother was the way she was towards me. I have often wondered whether my mother's emotional coldness (she didn't even try and act like you) was down to the fact that she was emotionally detached from her own feelings, and getting in touch with and empathising with mine could only happen if she got in touch with her own feelings. I have a strong suspicion that my mother was abused sexually and I wonder if maybe yours was too? These cycles do seem to repeat themselves,. unless - as you now seem to be doing - you allow yourself to remember and go through the painful feelings.
Maybe if you can get the help and support you need to come to terms with your past and feel it all (on an emotinonal level) you will be able to experience your daughter's with her?
As for the "adopting a mother" thing, that is exactly how I was feeling a year ago, I think I said as much in my earlier posts, and my counsellor encouraged me to think about women in my life who were supportive and "motherly" to me and allow myself to be nurtured by them. Sounds funny to say, but the women who run my dc's nursery were (without their knowledge) the most amazing source of comfort to me at that difficult time when I was feeling so lost - one woman in particular will never know how much her bustly bosom and her "hello my darling, are you alright my love?" meant to me one particularly bad morning.
At least you are aware of your feelings - you are at the "midsight" stage and are not blaming your daughter for having wants and needs that you can't meet, like mine did and still is doing. I honestly think you could find the love for your daughter with help. I will also be completely honest and say that I have often wondered if I would have found it as easy if I'd had a daughter, and in many ways I am glad that I didn't so that the cycle is broken . So don't think you are alone in this. I think we could all relate in some way to what you are saying.
Sakura, thanks for validating my feelings again. So often I wonder if my mother was really that bad, she didn't beat me or call me names or do any of the stuff my stepdad did. He was always easy to despise, and I don't have any real feelings about him or towards him because he had no biological or paternal connection with me. But she has always been a mass of contradictions - love one minute, withdrawn the next. It;s a confusing thing to grow up with.
Thank you dizietsma. I only posted what I did because i felt the people on this thread might have at least an inkling of what I was talking about if not a full understanding. I wouldn't have dared posted such a thing on any other thread, I'm sure I would have been savaged as a previous poster has mentioned.
I can relate to what you have said about your DH, my DH too loves and is able to love DD unconditionally as he is truly loved by his parents; it sounds corny but whenever his parents are around I can 'feel' the love they have for both their children, one of whom is my DH.
Thank you for the book recommendation, I will soon be off to amazon to look it up! I too have read loads of books and parenting manuals and they have helped a great deal, but the books that have helped the most are the books addressing abusive childhoods.
And thank you for the hugs, always much appreciated!
oneplusone- What a brave post. I too was afraid of repeating cycles with my DD. When she was born I felt numb, faked a lot of emotions in the first few months. In particular there is one photo of me holding DD with a fake smile that I cannot bear to look at because I know I was thinking "Just fake it, even though you feel like dying inside." I suppose that in a lot of ways I was hoping for a son because the emotional baggage would've been less of an issue.
It was through my DH who, bless him, adored DD the moment he caught her that I learned how to love the way a parent should love. MIL is a darling and, whilst certainly not a perfect parent, was able to give DH unconditional love. In turn he instinctively knew how to give it to his child and I learnt from him. These days, I'm very glad I had a daughter first. She has helped me more develop self-awareness and directly address a very toxic relationship, a great gift.
One of the ways I have worked to avoid repeating my parents mistakes is reading lots of parenting manuals and even taking courses. I did a short OU course called "Understanding Children" where I learnt about Alfie Kohn. He wrote a book called "Unconditional Parenting" and I highly recommend it.
I feel sure that by helping yourself deal with your past and your bad relationship with your mum your attitude to your DD will become more empathetic, well done you!
I realise now that I have been missing a huge piece of my jigsaw and it is only by reading this thread that I was even alerted to the fact.
I totally blamed my miserable, unhappy and painful childhood on my dad who was extremely vicious, bullying, and nasty towards me from the age of around 11. However the strange thing is that before the abuse started I seem to remember feeling quite close to my dad and that he was actually a fairly nice, kind and even loving and caring dad.
With the help of my counsellor I have come to the realisation that probably when I turned 11 he had some sort of mental breakdown in his life, something completely unconnected with me. I think this is what caused his rages; he was always angry and he seemed to change overnight. In fact, until he turned into a psychopath almost overnight, I think I was actually closer to him than to my mum. I remember times such as when I had fallen over and hurt myself I would go to him rather than my mum, or at least he would be the one to comfort me, not my mum. Perhaps I did go to my mum but she rejected me and so I went to my dad or my dad comforted me when he could see my mum rejecting me.
The scary thing is and this is something I have never admitted to anyone ,is that I feel history has repeated itself with me and my daughter. Although I know I love her, I haven’t bonded with her in the same way that I have bonded with my son. With my son I felt an instant love and connection with him the moment he was born. When my daughter was born I just felt numb, I felt absolutely nothing. She is now 4 and I still feel no connection with her, I look at her and know she is completely separate from me, even sometimes as if she is nothing to do with me and I am looking after her for someone else.
The worst thing of all is that when she falls over and hurts herself or is upset for some reason I feel nothing inside, whereas if my son cries for any reason I hurt inside too and I have to go to him and comfort him. With my daughter I could just walk away. I feel absolutely awful for feeling this way but I can’t seem to change it. I try and try to dredge up some sort of feeling for my daughter but I just can’t. I even posted a thread on MN a while ago because I was feeling quite down and upset about my lack of feeling for my daughter which seems particularly apparent when she’s upset and wants me to comfort her. There were a few other MN’s who could relate to how I felt but it was clear most just didn’t understand.
The point of mentioning all of the above is that I think the way I am with my daughter is because of the way my mum was with me in my early childhood. I don’t have any real clear memories of this time, but the few memories I have are of me being distressed, upset, angry and my mum just ignoring me, not being there or just looking at me. I don’t have a single memory of my mum being warm and loving and caring towards me, whether I was upset or not. Perhaps she also didn’t bond with me and therefore had no feeling towards me. And perhaps when she was a child that is how her mother treated her. I know very little about her childhood, I never knew my grandparents on her side (or on my dad’s side) but from what I do know, my mum seemed to talk very affectionately about her dad but has mentioned very little or even nothing about her mum. So this is pure guesswork on my part but I feel I am most probably correct in thinking that she had an uncaring and unloving mum, therefore she was that way towards me and therefore I am that way towards my daughter.
I guess the difference though between me and my mum is that I have knowledge, insight and most importantly awareness. I am conscious of the fact that I have no feelings towards my daughter and of course the last thing in the world I want to do is continue this cycle with her or hurt her in any way. So I pretend. If she is upset, hurt etc I pretend that I care and I do care but it’s on an intellectual level not a feeling level, but I know I don’t feel the same way inside towards my daughter, as when my son cries. But it kills me to know that I am pretending and that I don’t feel anything inside. I hope my daughter is totally unaware, but I worry that, like all children who pick up on vibes etc,, that somehow she knows as I’m sure my acting isn’t good enough to completely fool her and children can’t be fooled in such a way anyway.
Sometimes when she cries I try to comfort her but it’s just so hard when I feel nothing, even just coldness towards her inside and I know I’m not giving her what she needs and so she asks for her daddy. And I feel soooooooo terrible inside but I think I am still needy myself, I still feel like I need my mother, not the one I actually have who is no more than simply my biological mother, but a real proper mother, one who loves me, will look after me, protect me, listen to me, advise, support and guide me. My needs as a child were not met by my mother and so I cannot meet those same needs in my daughter. It’s as simple and as awful as that. I suppose it’s not my fault, but I feel absolutely terrible about it and like a completely awful mother for having no feelings towards my own daughter. But then that is exactly how my mother was towards me and I’m sure her mother towards her. It is scary to think that perhaps if I had not come across this thread I would never have even looked more deeply into my relationship with my mother, other than her ostrich like stance in the face of my dad’s abuse and a huge part of my jigsaw would have been missing without me knowing it.
On a slightly more positive note, I was wondering this morning whether there was an age limit to being adopted?! Do you think there is a lovely mother out there who perhaps doesn’t see her children very often and who maybe doesn’t have any grandchildren who would be willing to adopt me?
Sorry for such a long and rambling post and thank you to anyone who has read this far, I really needed to get my thoughts out of my head.
god this is setting off some strange stuff for me, reading this thread.
It's like spikes are rising up from my spine.
People are always telling me it is wrong to hold grudges and I am trying to get on with life with my parents who are now being decent grandparents to my sons. But I feel that in order to do that I have to deny a lot of emotional abuse which they of course continue to deny.
It's strange but my sister and I rarely speak although when we do all the stories and memories come out. But I think we avoid eachother now for this reason.
I feel so full of anger sometimes I could destroy myself, frankly, and don't know where it can go- especially now I'm a mother myself. I get frustrated with my eldest son who is very opposite to the way I was. Like many of you on this thread I was a very 'perfect', uncannily detached little girl, probably because there was no other option. I have a son with a massive sense of entitlement and boundless energy & I find him hard to understand.
Thank you for reminding me to give myself a little (or even a big) hug! I need reminding that I do have a little light to shine in dark places and it's all mine! I had some fantastic therapy till the summer, although sometimes I forget what I learned. Old habits die hard and need killing again!
For me, it is my father who is the violent abusive bully. I can see from a distance that his behaviour was appalling, unloving (although possibly not deliberate) and his children would have stood a better chance if he had left us in the dustbin. Now my brother carries his mantle and is the same, but without a job, and my brother is thick.
Arrrggh I had forgotten all about the dreaded piano lessons (and being forced to play in front of guests) that me and my sisters were forced to go to every week for over 10 years because my parents thought it was a good thing to be able to "put on your cv".
They chose what hobbies we should have.
I too feel like a child, and seem unable to treat myself to adult female things like a haircut, spa treatment, leg wax or shopping for clothes for me day. I can arrange it for my best friend, but then again I see her as an adult but not myself.
My parents have always said that makeup, shaving your legs/armpits, are a waste of time and money.
Danae, as I was reading about the way you were treated as a child, two things came into my mind. Then as I finished reading your post, you mentioned one of them yourself. The first one was that corny thing that absolutely works: hugging the small you. I discovered this by myself long before I heard that it was a common thing in psychotherapy. Around the time of my wedding when the memories of abuse were coming back, I went back in time to the little girl who was crying on the bed and stroked her face and hair and told her it was going to be allright. It really worked for some reason.
The other thing, is that I think we definitely feel a sense of catharsis in the way we treat our own daughters (or sons). So everytime we offer love to them, in a sense we're offering it to ourself IYSWIM. Because we can feel the huge leap between how we were treated and how we should have been.
I am so shocked at some of the things you describe. The tying of your hands in the chair is diabolical. I think thats one of the worst things I've read on here. That poor little girl who used to be you !! Theres no getting back at your parents either- the only thing we can hope for is a period of relative peace with our own families. This is what I'm aiming for. They'LL NEVER change, and NEVER admit what they did. We will always be exaggerating, or they will keep thinking that their behaviour was appropriate. They're very ill people.
I don't want to retrieve these kinds of memories, but I'm sure I have them too. I'm too ashamed to think about them, because we feel that our parents are part of us, so if they are bad and ill, then maybe I must be too.　Its easier for me to concentrate on the beatings because they were done out of temper but deep inside, I know there was a lot of spiteful stuff full of hatred towards me, similar to your hands tied to your sides. I know I also had to wait 4 hours between each feed for example. I was born in the 80s so again, I can't blame the era!! ] The "prop for her glory"struck a chord too. I was forced to play the piano in front of guests etc. I was expected to excel in every subject or hobby, and yet was never ever given the emotional sustenance to do so. I did swimming, ballet, gymnastics, horseriding, harp, violin, piano, latin, ballroom dancing, first aid, life-saving and more. I was always told that she had to work to pay for my hobbies . I just remembered now a phase that I went through when I thought it was "bad" if my weight got heavier than 4 stone. I checked the schales each day and if it was over I'd excercise more. God knows how old I was if I was 4 stone, but thats a kind of anorexia, isn't it.
oneplusone, welcome to the thread. It sounds as though you've worked out a lot about your past. Thisthread is really good for helping us to put all the jigsaw pieces together, I find. I've got to go now, DD is ill today, but I hope it helps you here.
Hi Pages, so nice to talk to you! Yes, whilst reading through your posts I definately felt like i was the equivalent of your older brother and at least you have each others support. Like you said in one of your posts, when it was your brother on his own he could be called the mad one but now there's two of you it validates both your feelings and experiences and makes it much harder for your mother to deny things.
I do think my dad thinks i'm mad, when we had our final falling out just before i cut off all contact he told me i was mad and that i needed to see a pyshchiatrist! That from a man who is a psyhopath! And of course i am seeing a counsellor but not because i'm mad, far from it, i am far saner than my dad will ever be,
Oh and btw, oneplusone, I found it interesting that your two dc were almost identical ages to my two when this all started with my family. I do think having our own dc seems to have triggered something for many or even most of us.
PPS Actually, it's something I can honestly say I never thought about - Christmas in Japan. I guess they wouldn't if not Christians. Feel a bit now. (Oh, the shame, the shame - here it comes again...)
Hello oneplusone, and thanks for joining us! I could relate to a lot of what you said, but I think your position in the family was more akin to the position of my older brother and I think he would strongly identify with you and your "outsider" position. Although I felt like an outsider at times, ie when perceived as "bad" or "horrid" (little girl with little curl) I was forever trying to be "very very good" and my mother and I were close at these times.
But like you, growing up in a family where what was really going on was never spoken about had its price to pay, whether I was in or out of favour. I strongly relate to the feeling of abandonment and feeling I had no sanctuary, nowhere to turn with my pain (until I discovered sex, drugs and alcohol of course).
Danae, I love the way you talk to your LO, I too am trying not to laugh at DS2, and to take his concerns seriously, even when they are hilarious.
Hi Purpleone - want to tell us more?
Amethyearwax, she seems to have melted right away - have heard nothing for a while now. She's not bothering me anymore.
I have been trying to work out exactly how I felt as a child and I've realised that I felt abandoned. I was abandoned but not in the usual sense of being left on the roadside but in the sense that I was not treated as part of the family or the family unit created by my mum and 2 younger sisters, I felt as if no-one cared or was interested in me or anything I did and I was simply 'on my own' and I dealt with all my problems by myself (meaning problems at school/work/friends etc;).
The word describes exactly how i felt and makes me feel so sad.
Hi, Ally90 and Danae. It feels amazing to be talking to real people (albeit via MN) about all this. So far the only people in RL i have talked to are DH (who tries his best poor thing but is a terrible listener and I'm sure has no real idea how i feel as he has an absolutely lovely family and the kind of parents I wish I had); I talk to my counsellor (of course) and one of my very close friends who has a similar family to mine but she is still in a kind of semi denial as she says she has no ill feeling towards her dad who has been an absolute bstar to her.
Danae, I totally know what you mean about still feeling 14, I look around me at women my age and they seem so grown up and I still feel and in some ways act like a child. Although since I have embarked on this journey I think I am starting to feel more and more 'grown up'.
Something somebody said a while back (it was last year, I've got to Dec 06 in my reading of the thread) got me thinking. She mentioned that most of you seemed to have awful mothers whereas in my case it was my dad who was awful. Or so I thought.....that comment got my mind racing again and eventually i had another 'realisation' ie that my mother was equally guilty in her mistreatment of me but it was in a much more subtle way than my dad's obvious physical and verbal abuse. She mistreated me by ignoring me, never talked to me about how i was or spent any time with me. And weird as it may sound, I feel now that she almost created a 'functional' family unit within the larger dysfunctional family. The functional unit consisted of my mum and 2 younger sisters and I think they functioned as a normal family should ie they talked openly, my mum nurtured and loved my 2 sisters and they all have a close bond, although my dad was abusive to all of us.
I however was on the outside and was always excluded from the smaller unit and that is what caused me so much pain and hurt as a child, like i've said already i always felt like an outsider or the odd one out and that's exactly what i was. I never showed it though, i always acted tough and as though nothing could hurt me or get to me but inside i was crying.
I don't know whether my mum excluded me deliberately or unknowingly and i guess I'll never know. I am constantly thinking and trying to remember my youngest years, I suppose trying to work out why my mum didn't like me and why she was always closer to my 2 sisters. It's very painful to think about especially as my sisters see me as the 'bad guy' when I feel I was the worst off out of all 3 of us.
Pages...we're rapidly running out of thread space...I think they run to 1000 posts...we're on 951 now...
Can the next one be entitled 'But we took you to stately homes' a thread for adult children of abusive families...
Or shall we just have a competition...
Hi oneplusone, found myself nodding my head alot to your post...and I like the washing machine analogy, very appropriate, think I've gone thro the fast spin recently..especially at night, have I met another fellow insomniac? The being different around family, I get totally. I never smiled a genuine smile around them esp not in pics, I just look strained. And my mother and sister were in cahoots all the time, always them against me. Very lonely and isolating. Are you alone as in no dp/dh around? Really glad you found us here, its never too late to get more support, tho I wish I found this thread in feb 06 when I broke contact with my mother, 8 mths pg. Looking back with fresh eyes again on the situation I realise it was the thought of reliving my abuse every day with my mother and father sat nodding their heads and laughing at things 'i did' over and over again, day after day, week after week with my dd in the same room.
Smithfield (replying to your post of 4th dec 15:06) In 'divorce a parent' they suggest first year is year of anniversary's and its the hardest year. However, althought in some ways I found it a very bleak time, xmas was okay, just relieved I didn't have to do the emotional juggling I had to do each year. This year I fear is slightly different. I think I've got FOG about my mother at the moment (from borderline personality disorder - Fear Obligation Guilt). Fighting it off as best I can tho! Hope your xmas goes alright, like someone posted, make it your own with your own little traditions.
Okay, now got to go again, dd awake early! And no tea in house...pizza again then!
Hi all, I've only recently discovered this thread but so wish I had found it sooner, my story is the same as all of yours but different only in the detail IYKWIM. I am going to try and draft a condensed version of my story and post it later, if i told you all of it it would be a book in itself.
I started printing the thread on the weekend thinking i would post once i had read it all, but once i had finished printing all 200 A4 pages of it i realised it would probably take me months to read it all as i only really have about an hour a day in the evenings once the DC's are in bed to read in peace. But I intend to read each and every post as so far I have identified with something in nearly each and every post i have managed to read so far. There are so many words of wisdom, so much pain and sadness but also so much hope for a different future both for ourselves and our DC's and just knowing this thread exists has given me a boost.
For the time being I thought I would just introduce myself and tell you a little bit of my story and where I am on the journey that all those on this thread are on.
Ok, well I'm 37, married with 2 DC's, a DD age 4 and DS age 19 months. I cut off all contact with my parents in July 2006 and since then have been on an emotional rollercoaster or in an emotional washing machine, sometimes it's on the spin cycle, sometimes it's gently washing, sometimes it's wringing, but so far it hasn't stopped and to be honest I don't know if it ever will.
I guess I had the 'realisation' as Sakura perfectly describes it in around January this year. Before the realisation I had for years always been tense when around my family, I was unable to be myself with them and always became tense, angry, rude and snappy and I never quite knew why but at the same time deep down somewhere I did know why; sounds strange I know but that's the way it was for me. Anyway, in hindsight i now think that having DD 4 years ago was a trigger point for me in causing some of the deeply suppressed childhood memories to start making their way to the surface but at that point the memories remained suppressed. I then had my gorgeous DS in May 2006 and I think, again in hindsight, that this was the final trigger that caused the suppressed feelingsto burst into my consciousness and as so many others have said, something inside me just snapped and all my feelings came rushing up like a volcanoe and I just knew that I had to cut off my parents and that is what i did in July 2006.
Even after cutting off all contact my suppressed memories were still not clear and not fully in my consciousness but it was as if they were gradually filtering back, randomly and it was in January this year that a picture started forming I suppose, the memories and feelings came into focus and I realised that I had been abused as a child and that my so called family were highly dysfunctional.
Once I had the realisation it was as if I knew what I was dealing with and I too came across the book Toxic Parents and read it from cover to cover in the one night! I devoured any books on the subject and found anything by Alice Miller to be amazingly insightful and spot on, which is not surprising considering she too was abused as a child; Alice Miller is now a psychotherapist and well known and respected authority on the subject of child abuse and I would highly recommend her books and website.
I have been seeing a counsellor since June and he has helped me a immensely, in fact I don't think I would have got through the last 6 months without him. I am so grateful to every single person who has posted on this thread and especially Pages who started it. I have felt very alone in all of this and it is good, but sad, to know I'm not the only one and there are others out there who understand what I'm going through. Now, a bit about my family. I think now that my dad is a psychopath in the clinical sense, he fits all the criteria perfectly, he is also a bully and narcissist. He was verbally, physically, emotionally and psychologically abusive towards me since around the age of 11 and also towards my mum and 2 younger sisters, although I feel i bore the brunt of his abuse as compared to my 2 sisters, the youngest of whom was his favourite so although he did abuse her it was not as severe as what he did to me. Like many of your mothers mine was a coward, she was scared of my dad and too weak and pathetic and ultimately too selfish to stand up to him not even for the sake of her children. She portrays herself as a victim and I think she sees herself almost as another one of the children in the family instead of one of the adults. I was never close to her, I feel she totally abandoned me in favour of my two younger sisters who were clearly her favourites and growing up the 3 of them were always together and much closer than i was with any of them. So all in all I grew up always feeling completely lost and alone, like an outsider, as if i was the odd one out and as though i didn't belong. I had no-one to turn to about my dad's abuse, certainly not my mum who just buried her head in the sand and tried to pretend it wasn't happening because she was too scared to face up to it. In fact I remember I used to stand up for her instead of her standing up for me, and I was only around 11 years old at the time.
What has hurt me most about this whole thing is that I have fallen out with my sisters because they are completely unaware that our family is dysfunctional and that in fact all 3 of us are victims (although I feel i am a survivor not a victim). So they are angry with me for upsetting my parents who now no longer see my children since i cut off contact and I'm sure my mum is playing her victim role to the hilt and feeling sorry for herself that she is missing out on her grandchildren and also portraying me as the ungrateful child as they too 'took us to loads of stately homes!' (or their equivalent!). I am back on talking terms with my sisters, but with one of them our parents are a taboo subject and we don' talk about it and with the other one, she has said she wants to talk but we haven't yet had the opportunity to do so.
I have also had health problems as a result of all the stress and pressure caused by all this and a month ago I felt completely and utterly drained and burnt out. My mind always seems to be racing and processing all my new thoughts and feelings and I am also looking after our 2 DC's alone and I think it all just got too much and i felt ready to just collapse.
Anyway, I think I'm starting to ramble so will sign off here. Just one more thing, there is an excellent website and helpline run by the charity NAPAC, National Association for People Abused as Children and i would urge you all to take a look at the website.
Thanks PAges, not patronising at all. I really hope to God that this movement we're making affects the rest of the family. I'm thinking of my brothers here, who have so many problems because of the way my parents are(depression, social phobia, alcoholism, aggression, inability to commit to one person-- its just endless, and so sad, because I know they are all gorgeous, lovely boys who have been damaged) I hope that if I rock the boat, changes will happen in their lives, but I suspect the burden I was carrying has shifted to them. SO it just depends if they're pushed enough to snap, like I was- the worm will turn!
When I read your posts about your mother, again I feel like I'm lucky that my mother was so overt in her weird behaviour because that makes it so much easier for me. Yours has done some pretty crazy stuff, all in a secret covert way,Mine also said "You had a good upbringing" "I've done the best I can" etc etc.- there are so many toxic phrases out there, aren't there, to be used by these toxic people. Like the "little curl" song that my grandmother used to sing all the time. When I hear the things your mother saiys, I know it could be my mother talking.
Winters not as bad in the region that I live as it is at home. I can still get out each day, and we get some blue sky, which I am grateful for. It helps a lot--but I do miss the cosiness of a British winter and there's no Xmas here- its just a normal, working day
PS Hope that didn't sound patronising. Knowing other people feel the same things as I do (i.e on this thread) has also been invaluable to me in "growing up" so I don't want to set myself apart!! Just meant that I feel very much as if I am the mother now, and my mother is a little girl.
Sakura, so about the beating before school thing, what a huge burden you carried. I too am amazed at the lengths I went to to keep up the semblance of normality. I remember how "normal" we were to the outside world and some of the things my mother and stepdad did to paint themselves in a positive light. No-one would have known, and to be fair, for me that WAS normality, but like you I had a deep sense of shame, which is easily triggered to this day. I was vaguely aware that my other friends didn't have home lives like mine but it was just one of those things - we didn't talk about it. Well, one of the last things my mother said to me recently was "I think you had a good upbringing" so where would I have started?!!!
I entirely agree with what Smithfield said (what an excellent post!)- my counsellor too said that narcissists see their children in 2D, extensions of themselves. But I do think you are right Sakura, that pushing us to carry all the emotions so that we can be "the bad/emotional/over-sensitive (read "wrong") one" and they can be the good/normal ones is part of the family dynamic. My mother has always been emotionally cold, as has my younger brother (although I think he has anger problems)- crying is a real sign of weakness to both of them. And I think you are right that now we are refusing to carry it for them, they must have to face up to it in some sense. As my counsellor said, the family system is deep rooted and if something changes it has an effect on everyone else.
And yes, that is interesting about weddings etc as the symbols of our independence having a negative effect on our parents. The whole thing actually kicked off (before the comment about DS1 and his SN coming out) because my sister got married and I was accused by my mother and younger brother of being selfish and self-centered by trying to organise a secret celebration for her .
I can't help re the "growing up" thing other than to say that I really do feel grown up now - always was finanically, careerwise, etc, but emotionally I was stuck at about age 6, let alone a teenager! - and the only thing I can put this down to is the counselling (and the confrontation of my mother of course). I really don't feel like I need a mother anymore, and am not really emotionally (or financially) dependent on DH either.
I do still struggle with the "extended" shame feelings but I think there are stages with that and I think I am at the "midsight" stage, where I am able to recognise it, identify it and tell myself that it is an "old" feeling. Telling myself that I am not stupid/wrong etc but just human seems to help a lot...Having said that, if anyone does know any good books about "shame" and how to hand it back, I too would be interested.
Sakura, don't be hard on yourself. I think it is the time of year, definitely, being holed up indoors because of the weather, and the lack of daylight (is this the same in Japan?)sends you a bit stir crazy. We are never out of our PJs or done with breakfast before lunchtime at weekends, and I think what you said about "Groundhog Day" is true for many of us. Just remember this too will pass - as does everything - as the DC grow. Sounds to me like something is shifting for you - maybe some changes are afoot?
Oh, thank you Smithfield for that lovely post. It makes sense about the individuation- thats why they go loopy at milestones- weddings, birth of a baby etc. My mother said about my wedding: "Why doesn't she wait a few years until I can afford it? Why is she doing this to me?" Totally seeing me as a dependant child who would need her permission and financial help to get married!
What can we do to become more independant? I feel that I have created a childlike situation for myself because I live in a country where I barely speak the language so I have to totally rely on DH to sort out bills and paperwork etc. I wonder if I've manufactured my life like this. I have a big debt after doing 2 degrees and its only recently I've felt I have the guts to look at the situation and fathom a way of paying it off. Before that I just pretended it wasn't there. My mother always loomed over me as though she was the "saviour" of my out of control financial situation instead of calmly teaching me about money, savings and investment. There are many other childlike things that I do, so I was wondering if there were any books on this subject. The thought of wills, pensions etc scares me. I really am a child in this respect. But then again, maybe its just because I have never been shown how to deal with these things. Maybe other parents teach their kids about money and life.
I think it is because they see us as an extension of themselves, or as their possession rather than individuals in our own right. Also I believe they just dont have the capacity to operate in any other way. I mean if they saw us as individuals with seperate Identities, needs, wants and emotions, how would they ever relate to that? They dont have the capacity to empathise with any other emotion, need feeling or want other than their own!
I was reading that the main hurdle for 'us' is that in a family with a 'normal' climate a child hits thier teens and begins on the path to individuation....WE were not allowed to do that beacause that was threatening to our parents. Therefore our childhood is incomplete. The process is incomplete, and we become 'adult children'. Again refferring back to a normal household, the teen would set off on that precarious path of independence and invariable stumble and fall along the way. The parent would pick them up, dust them off, give them a gentle re-assuring squeeze and gently push on their way. Not so in our households. My mother became progressively worse as I ventured toward my teens. Any movement toward that path of independance and I would be hung, drawn and quatered.
So as 'adult children' maybe sakura, we both continue to beat ourselves for gaining any sort of ground in the independence stakes. Yep I have oftrn felt myself crumble the same way as you.
I think what we need to do is be strong for ourselves, we need to 'grow ourselves up' and complete the process. We need to become our own nurturing parents. So if we do stumble along the way to independence, we mustn't beat ourselves up. Instead we must dust ourselves off, tell ourselves...you know what that's ok...then gently nudge ourselves back on the path.
So for you sakura....when you say you didnt get up til 9.30. Tell yourself...So what, maybe I need the rest. When you dont make it to toddler group....You say...So what! Maybe I just didnt fancy the company today. Its nearly xmas I need to wind down anyway, there's always next term.
They beat you before school because they were crap parents...... This is as much a message to myself as it is to you.
Thanks for the book reccomendation, Toomany. I think I need that for myself. I don't know why-maybe because its winter, but I'm having to watch myself. I feel like I might fall apart at any moment. Our appartment is getting messier, I'm sleeping later with DD (until 9:30 today and about 10:30 by the time I did her breakfast and got her out of pyjamas), and we're not going to our mother and toddler groups in the morning because I can't get there on time. Me and DH are bickering more, and (the biggest sign) I'm logging onto this thread more frequently. But its okay I think. Pages, I was thinking about something you wrote- about "carrying the family pain", and then not being willing to do that anymore. Do you think this is why our mothers are so resistant to our independance and separating- because they might have to start shouldering some of the pain? I don't think its only pain. Its shame too. I want to hand back the deep sense of shame that I feel for just existing. I remember as a child that in the morning before school my mother would give me a beating and say some terrible things, (or my father may have done so at the weekend), and I remember trying to stifle my tears so I didn't go to school with red eyes because of the shame that someone might suspect I was being abused. I felt that if anyone found out, they would know what a freak I really was . The shame was inccredible.
I want to hand that back to them. My God, the shame belongs to them, not to me!! I feel sorry for them that they might have to face up to the shame for the people they are, but again, that is their shame to face, not mine to carry for them. And as long as I kept acting as though nothing was wrong, I was relieving them of their burden by carrying a sense of self-loathing that should rightly be carried by them. I think thats why our parents loathe to see us happy- it tells them that maybe we were okay after all, and if there's nothing wrong with us, then perhaps they are the ones with the problem after all. I think this is why my parents have always openly tried to sabotage my chances at happiness over the years. If I am miserable and can'T cope with life its because I was born like that, and they were right all along. But if I seem to be thriving without them- well, what does that say?
Hello all, My kids (13 & 15 yrs) ask me, "What are you reading?" "But We Took You to Stately Homes!"
I would like to recommend a book. I do not know if it has been mentioned in the thread yet or not...and Pages, this is not directed at you or your comments about allowing ourselves to feel-even anger (which is so true)...the book is
Anger Management: 6 Critical Steps to a Calmer Life, by Peter Favaro, PhD The little ditty on the cover: "Identify What's Setting You Off and Why; Find the Calm While Navigating the (Inevitable) Storm; Relinquish Toxic Anger in Your Life-For Good"
I read it to learn about the anger in others and it helped explain their methods of operation and why those methods may seem logical to the angry person. My Older Sister recommended it as her dh was/is in need of some guidance in this area-and thankfully he is improving.
In several places it describes Middle Sister's interactions with people so specifically accurate that it kind of sent shivers up my spine. She is a 'predatory angry' person, according to my unprofessional estimation of the circumstances. (But why do I feel the need to qualify it? That IS what she is.)
The book makes the distinction between the frustrated angry person: self-destructive tendency (self-isolating); and the predatory angry person: other-[person] destructive (elevate themselves by persecuting others).
Yes, I see me and my solitude, but I don't presume to make other people "pay for it".
Back to the predatory anger...some points covered, which explains how they operate, are: Lack of empathy Desensitized to other's feelings Revenge motivation Strong sense of entitlement
I skipped Middle Sister's Cookie Bake on the 2nd (I've been to the last 2 or 3 but don't always go). She called me for directions for icing cookies. But first she tells me that I am the best baker and the Queen of Icing (like I'm someone at the office she needs to butter up before asking a favor? or what- oh, build me up to her picture of perfection?) to which I said "No, no, no, I am not". I felt the little tense nano-second of terseness- "Well-anyway...". I kindly helped her the best that I could and she said she'd call back and tell me how everything went. But she hasn't called back yet. Is that my punishment? I'll take it .
The past few weeks, I had the glimmer of hope that she had a clue to backing off of being so bossy and pushy...but just now, I believe that the dawning ice age is her pro-active (but with passive-aggressive tactic) management of me-she'll teach me a lesson. Christmas is going to be 'interesting' .
I have several things I want to post to many of you. But I need to watch my over saturation of these deeply felt subjects-especially over the holidays.
This is my 10th year as an 'orphan' (Mom passed on in '80 and Dad in '98-they were a little older when I was born). I would like to offer encouragement to those of you without parent contact-for whatever reason-to please try to enjoy the holidays for yourself. Find or pick out your favorite things to enjoy: the decorations, the cooking, the sales! , the music-my favorite. And try to take the most delight as you can in setting your own traditions-it is sooo cool: you can do what you want! Drop the guilt, the 'should do this', 'should serve and eat that', 'should follow this schedule', etc. It is not selfish to enjoy the holidays.
To those of you in grieving for a loved one, , <<<hugs>>>... it is a melancholy time. It is ok to cry of course, and missing someone is powerfully painful and probably will never really ever go away completely, imho. I hope that you are far enough along in the process to give the grief its due (even as a scheduled appointment-light a candle or some acknowledging action), then try your best to allow yourself some pleasure.
I hope this can be helpful to someone, and thank you for helping me so much.
inspiration has not struck as yet!
<sits back and waits for new thread to appear as if by magic>
I just wanted to see a couple of your reactions before I told you mine, and that is that it is way too little, a little too late. She has thrown me a grudging defensive crumb not offered a heartfelt apology, and yes, I'm sure she thinks "I've said I'm sorry, what more do you want?" but I am not even going to ask her for any more, or to work through anything with me because I will be whistling in the wind. 
)
However discussed what to do with therapist if I got anything from her...talked about not opening it, or opening it and 'choosing' how to feel. Okay...have opened it. She will never give me what I want ie unconditional love and acceptance and a big fat genuine apology and acknowledgement of her abuse of me and her allowing my sister to abuse me too. So I choose to chuck cards. Put dd present and card in loft with rest of them. And go and make some more bread. I will mention to dh. Then 'choose' to forget it. Its emotional blackmail, yet again, if I fall for that one again she will only put the boot in when she next gets an opportunity. So move on. Okay...moving on now...still feel bit shaky...yes go get bread ready...give it a bloody good kneading...
I'm an adult I'm an adult I'm an adult. Don't depend on her emotionally anymore, she's the wrong person to depend on. Who mentioned adopt-a-gran? 
could you meet her somewhere neutral? i you really feel you can't say no to her, could you offer to meet her somewhere for a coffee? With a bit of luck she'll go in a hufty that you set a boundary and tell you not to bother meeting her. 
, as though she had magic powers or something. To be fair, she could have got my address from someone, but I couldn't see straight from fear. Eventually after about a month, I got a hold of myself and realised she could only find my appartment with my help, which brings up the second problem- was I brave enough to not help her find me? I realised that not speaking to her or helping her to find me was the height of "disobedience"-after all I'm still a child when it comes to my relationship with her. I felt that by not helping her find me, I would suffer dreadful consequences- horrendous ones (I'd have my child taken off me like she had threatened to take me to court for
now. (Oh, the shame, the shame - here it comes again...) 
By 
