Ok - ds 10 (nearly 11) was caught for the second time on monday night with his nintendo ds under his pillow at night which he then proceeded to lie about having etc.

So we took away privileges - no reading, nintendo or playing out or in with his friends and we would review before dr who on sat.

Wed night he asked if we would consider letting him watch Heroes as we always do and whilst we said to him we would think about it depending on his behaviour dp and I agreed that we would as he seemed to be dealing with the punishment etc well.

Anyway Thurs morn I found some money in his trousers in the laundry basket and asked him if it was the bus money and had he forgotten to hand it all in. He then lied several times over stating it was for a friend etc etc before finally admitting it was the bus money and he had lied as he didnt want to get into trouble for not handing it in.

He had realise his mistake the previous day but hadnt thought to take money in which ok is a bit daft but its the lying again which made me cross as he hasnt seemed to understand that this is what makes us more angry than the original crime.

So he wasnt allowed to watch Heroes. He cried and thumped his bed upstairs which we let go for a short while and then dp told him he needed to calm down and go to sleep.

When we later went up to bed I found he had taken a pencil and gouged scratches with it in the wooden window sill. He was still awake and when asked why he did it he said it was because he was so angry.

So this morning I have calmly explained that he will not be watching Dr Who and that if anything more happens between then that ther will be no Heroes next week either as well as the rest of the punishment and that he needs to learn to control his anger.

I have had to ask dp to stop using physical threats when he gets angry too ( he would never follow through but I dont agree with them at all). He has agreed.

Normally ds is a wonderfully amenable boy and whilst it hurts to do this I really feel we have to follow through with it. Whats the consensus?

Sounds reasonable to me though I wonder if there are more immediate punishments that might work better than something that is a long time in the future?

Could you make him repair the window sill? Ie sand down and repaint?

Could you make him repair the window sill? Ie sand down and repaint?

Well I suppose the immediacy is not having ninetndo or reading (which means a lot to ds) or being able to play with his friends but I take your point.

The reason I chose those 2 things is because they are the only things he loves to watch and its a big event in our house and I felt that that would have more impact on him than anything else.

I have never really had to discipline him before which is why I am finding this all a bit of a minefield.

I think you have locked yourself into a downward spiral of punishment which you need to shock yourself out of!

This is just going on and on and on and on and on... over playing his ds under his pillow at night - hardly an unusual event with a 10yo!

The lying isn't great, I will conceded that, but when living with punative parents one can see exactly why he feels the need to do so.

I would sit down and have a long chat about behaviour - yours and his - and wipe the slate clean and move on!

I thought the same thing myself kitsilano but he isnt the kind of kid who would be capable of something like that and I think it would end up being more hassle for me than him iykwim!

It sounds to me as thought you are falling into a vicious circle - the original punishment was too long-winded, he is too immature to be able to handle being punished for that long, so he misbehaves again, and you lump another bit of punishment on top of the original one (even though the second crime isn't related to the first), this seems unfair to him (which it is, IMO) so he gets angry, can't control his anger and gets punished again

while I can follow your logic, I'm not sure he can - even if he can understand all this intellectually you are asking too much of him to accept a long drawn-out punishment and not put a foot wrong and not get angry.

Re: the lying - I hate lying too, and I think lots of parents come down on it hard because the lying is worse than the original crime. But is it possible that he is forming a habit of lying to you because your punishments are excessively drawn out and hard for him to take?

Isn't Heroeos a bit too adult for a 10 year old though? It is quite voilent imo

Thanks soapbox - you see this is where my mind keeps swinging.

I have tried to talk to him and we do talk a lot with him and I do take your point that its not unusual behaviour for a 10 year old.

Do you think we are over reacting because he never has really played up before?

I guess I was just disappointed when he lied about the money after all that had happened.

Yes I probably would have been mildly cross about not handing in the money because he is rather forgetful but nowhere near how upset I was that he concocted this whole story around it!

I've had to get through to my ds that it's the lying that makes me angry, more than what he did wrong in the first place.

I take away ipod/PSP and GBA before bed. I also check for illicit torches as he reads under the bed clothes, and the bulb is out of his side light. The easiest way is to just say to your ds that you want his Nintendo before he goes to bed, so you nip it in the bud. I wouldn't stress about the bus money - mine forgot to hand in a slip for a trip three days this week, and rather than getting cross, I just pointed out he wouldn't be going if he didn't remember. It got handed in.

I think the responsibility is down to us to make sure that they don't have the electronic gizmos when they go to bed, so we avoid arguments. Kids will always push it, and we have to stop them having the opportunity to do so. I'd let him watch Dr Who though...or record it for later.

The lying seems to be a punishment avoidance tactic, but my ds is slowly realising I am less likely to give him rocks for forgetting something, than for lying about it...however, I have not yet forgiven him for not putting new loo roll out the other day, and using the last piece on the current roll as well when I went to have a pee.

This is the first time we have really punished him tbh so I would hope that he isnt lying to prevent anymore of the same.

The thought did cross my mind though that that was why he lied about the money as he knew I would be cross that he forgot - but not majorly cross at all so maybe I am scarier than I realise?

Oh I just dont know what to do - its ridicuous I think I am as upset as him over this.

I don't think your boy has behaviour problems - but I do think your DP does

"I have had to ask dp to stop using physical threats when he gets angry too"

Maybe if you and your dp acted more proportionately to these relatively minor misdemeamours then your boy wouldn't end up lying.

I think you should get him to repair the damage (what kind of kid would be able to do it his age without a lot of hassle?!), and then as soapbox says, move on. I used to feel that my parents would punish me for every small misdemeanour or forgetfulness and I ended up very deceitful.

He is the same age as my DS - 1 word - 'SATS?'

I don't think you are necessarily over reacting but I think the problem is with such a LOOONNNG punishment. So he is still being punished days later when it would have been better for everyone to have moved on and had a fresh start. I can see why that would make him upset and angry and prone to more bad behaviour, creating the vicious circle that others have pointed out.

How have you manged to get your ds to realise that scaryteacher - thats exactly the point I am trying to get across to ds but seem to be failing.

I think whilst we as parents see lying as a big thing - possibly as learned behaviour from our parents - I am not sure that it isn't anything other than 'normal' for children to seek to avoid the consequences of their behaviour. Of course, they then get themselves tied up in knots with their lies.

I find that being open about the propensity to lie (we all do it to some extent or another - yes that dress looks fab, those shoes really match your outfit, your hair is divine - NOT) helps them to get things out!

If I think I am at the beginning of a porkie pie in making, I will often interject and say 'is that what actually happened or is that what you would like to have happened?' which often leads to an unburdening!

It is back to my usual premise of parenting - sometimes we have to help them to be good!

no is it heck - depends on the kid but i dont think it is.

anyway.

i think you have the principle of punishing right - but like greensleeves says - it lasts forever.

and its getting worse

and worse

and one punishment is leading on to another

and it will wuite quickly get to a "fuckit i am going to get in trouble anyway" stage

and never stop a kid from reading !!!

i think you would endear yourself if you could say " right windowsil was wrong - lets start again. clean slate. what do you think i should do in future if you lie?"

this forces a discussion and gets them to agree with you ( NOT DECIDE) whats fair.

i used to do that on my very left wing hippy days

other times i have to admit i have grounded them for eternity. ( wuickly realising thats not to my benefit)

i like to give them chores, they have chores anyway but give them extra chores as a punishment.

tidy house - bonus. Kid upset in room with cock all to do - pain in the arse!

TotalChaos - thats the thing I dont see them as minor misdemeanours - its lying which is wrong and I want him to understand that.

I take your point about dp and whilst he believes ds knows he doesnt mean it he also understands my view on it and it will cease. He has never laid a finger on ds and will never but I think even the language of it is too much.

What would you suggest as punishment?

Its too much for him to be totting up punishments imo. It'll be hard for him to remember which punishment is for what.

for what its worth I hate lying too but as others have said, its the fear of the punishment that makes him lie.

Ok so what should we do now then without it looking like we have been completely inconsistent in our parenting!

as to proposed punishment - what custardo said.

In the original situation - just confiscating the DS but no other punishment with the reading/grounding etc.

I do think the original lying about the DS wasn't that heinous - surely I wasn't the only kid to read under the blankets after bedtime???

Better to admit your mistake to your son and appear inconsistent this once, than to carry on like this to save face. Then you are demonstrating being truthful and honest to him - which is how you want him to behave after all.

BTW banning reading but allowing Heroes seems absolutely barmy to me!

Ok so talk with him about his beahviour and come up with a suitable punishment with him if he is caught lying again?

Then draw a line under it and start again?

Will he just not think that we never follow through on our decisions?

I only banned reading because I knew it would have an impact on him but I see your point.

Heroes is just the 3 of us watching so is special time for all of us.

It sounds like you have no buy-in from your son -that your style of discipline is 'top-down' and focuses on controlling your DS's behaviour by punishment; not focusing on the main objective of getting along when living together, setting negotiated boundaries, in an open and communicative way.

I found the book "9 Ways to bring out the best in you and your child" by Maggie Reigh brilliant here It's very very good - it gives real and practical tips about what discipline is, and how to apply it: how to avoid the punishment / angry retaliation / breakdown in communication (lying) cycle that you and your family seem to be engaged in at the moment.

This book shows how to focus on your objectives as a family unit living and working together.

HTH.

Banning reading is a very odd choice of punishment. And I agree with everyone else that piling punishment on punishment is unfair and will lead to worse behaviour, not better.

What I'd do: demand he hands over the Nintendo at bed time. Bus money - brief telling off for forgetting it, perhaps a post-it note on the front door to remind him to hand it in?

Big conversation about lying, how it's worse than the original mistake BUT you agree that you won't go apeshit if he admits to doing something wrong - he will lie if you make owning up so unpleasant it's worth trying to avoid being found out.

Like Custy's idea about having a discussion with him so he has agreed consequences for fucking up (and then stick to them).

I agree with soapbox. Talk, clear the slate and move on.

My DS#1 lies. I know it and he knows I know it. It started to really upset us and we had a few big bustups about it. But now I have started to stop being quite so controlling about things and there is no need for him to lie. The DS under the pillow is exactly the sort of thing we got cross about and would force DS to lie - so we let that sort of thing go. To a certain extent 11 is an age (mine was 11 in Jan) when they can decide what they do in bed - as long as they are in bed. And now he is being generally more honest - if he knows neither DH nor I are going to rant and punish him for everything, he doesn't need to lie. We do let little lies go - I don't see that he has to lay his entire life bare to his parents - perhaps we all have to learn not to ask. Just need to get DH 100% on board - not quite there, still tends to get overly wound up.

Thanks everyone - speaking to dp at lunch time and will let you know what we do!

Feel a lot better after 'talking' about this!

I would sit down with him and explain that you have probably taken it too far and that he can watch one of the programmes after all (let him choose which one)

I'd get him to tell you a bit more about why he lies and somehow convince him that lying to you isn't worth it. The problem with punishments generally is that there is no real incentive to tell the truth.

For instance in the original offence your ds obviously wanted to spend more time on the nintendo. He knew he wasn't supposed to but if he owned up to it he was very likely to get some sort of punishment so lying in that instance is so tempting it takes a very stong moral character to tell the truth. Most adults would find it hard, let alone a child.

I think in this instance the issue was his nintendo usage and NOT his lying. The lying was wrong but tbh if he wasn't so scared of the consquences of breaking the rules he'd be less likely to lie.

The money issue is an example of the fact that is is scared to tell you the truth. He couldn't tell you even when all he had done was make a mistake let alone when he had deliberately broken the rules on nintendo usage.

I'd sit down with him and discuss the nintendo usage and try and get him involved with a plan re using it that works for the family. Hve you read how to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk? - this gives a good way to come up with ideas for these sorts of problems.

In the future if he tells you a lie and then finally admits the truth I'd focus on the the original offence and I'd additionally tell him how pleased I was that he eventually told the truth. I wouldn't punish him for lying AT ALL but then unless what he was doing was really bad (stealing, violence etc) I wouldn't do the sort of punishments listed here at all.

I might at a pinch, if he had repeatedly broken the rule, have taken the nintendo away for a week but that would be it. He was playing with the nintendo when he wasn't supposed to so the only punishment would have been removal of the offending object.

I'd re-iterate the rules of the house (which ideally he would have had some input)but I'd also review if they were getting unreasonable. As children grow up some of the rules may need to change.

Tully, I've explained to him that I don't like being lied to and that it upsets me, so that is why he gets told off. For most things that he owns up to, I roll my eyes and tease him,or talk to him about why it's wrong, but if it's deliberate naughtiness, and at 12 he knows what he's doing, then he gets punished.

I've also told him that is he lies to me, I won't be able to believe anything he says so I'll be on his case at school as well as at home, and he may find that embarrassing, and I can be very embarrassing when I choose.

I think he's better now than he was, and that a lot of it is the knee jerk reaction of most kids when they know they may get told off..they do it in school, so it carries over at home. Problem is, they haven't got a whole class they can blame it on at home...

Every time it crops up, and it can only be ds who has done whatever it is, that song springs to mind...'it wasn't me'

oops sorry - I see it is all settled now - I am too slow in tying. I hope it all works out.

Haven't had time to read all of this but here goes.

Whenever I give a consequential punishment to ds (9) I usually give him the opportunity to earn back what he's lost. I use SMART goals for this - Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Realistic/Reward Driven, Time specific. In that way he knows exactly what he has to do to make amends and there is no bending of the rules. Usually he'll do whatever he can to earn it back and it avoids us getting into this neverending spiral of punishments for repeat offences. It encourages him to try to improve his behaviour because there's a reward at the end.

So I'd definitely have told him No to Heroes, but given him some specific way of earning Dr Who by behaving in a certain way. I would write them down too, so there can be no misunderstanding. It might include helping to repair the damage to the windowsill, apologing to anyone who was offended by his original behaviour, and making a promise to try not to let it happen again. And I'd review it in a week, and offer a specific reward for improving his behaviour.

Might not work for everyone, but that's how it goes in our house.

Yes, SMART is a good way to go, and is outlined in detail in the book recommended earlier.

Glad this has been sorted!
I guess your username is apt!