zippi's list is great

I think it is a great big complicated issue, and comes down to a child's learning/getting to know what sort of attention (from other people, and of all kinds - physical, emotional, academic, everything) they are comfortable with - so it is part of a whole-life pattern of "where do I belong?" (But a very crucial part - possibly the part which is most difficult to avoid - you can "opt out" perhaps of things like people paying attention to your ideas (just by not volunteering any) but you can't opt out of being looked at.)

Which is why zippi's emphasis on knowing lots of different kinds of children, and varied experiences - is so good.

My dd (7.5) is looking promising at the moment: although she's the conventionally-pretty type that could get too used to (& then reliant on) physically-appreciative attention, what she enjoys is being entertaining So - when they had a Mexican day at school, every single other little girl wore a flouncy skirt, flowers in their hair etc. - dd decided she would be ... a taco. (And came home sparkling & bouncing about "how everybody just wanted to eat me all the time")

We will see, though, how much a sense of humour carries you through.

Seeker that is a great attitude to have (both you and DD) if school crack down perhaps you can get her eyelashes tinted - now that would be really grown up! It's pretty easy to do even at home and the effects are great - although it can sting a little if it goes in eyes and need to do a patch test first.

We do lots of getting messy activities together we have ponies at home, have a veggie patch and lots of other animals. DD and I go nordic walking together in the woods, she has plenty of rough and tumble time, loves climbing trees and making fairy gardens out of leaves, flowers, sticks and mud (usually when she is supposed to be helping me muck out!).

I suppose, for me, it is helping her to understand that her body IS changing and this is a positive thing - can't do anything about the being tall/big feet thing though!

dd1 is 10 and has a very healthy attitude to her body, she is athletic but would never wear a bikini, as she wouldnt want to feel exposed, I think that is ok. She has a very healthy appetite, I have never suggested that she watch what she eats, on the other hand I have no issues with my body, (would have my stretchmarks removed if I had a magic wand but no great shakes)I am by no means perfect but I have never dieted, I grew up hearing negative messages from my mother constantly. She was anorexic and would tell me that I should watch what I eat as I am short and I would look very dumpy. I was really young when she first said this to me but I remember thinking, what a stupid thing to say.

I think that sounds a good approach Seeker. My mother couldn't stand her sister who was really into shoes, make up etc whereas my mother (just as attractive) thought only the mind/learning/supporting serious issues counted.

When I was a teenager I therefore thought making the most of your natural attributes equated superficiality/stupidity! It went on so long that it wasn't until my 30s that I accepted that it was ok to spend some of my money on nice clothes, beauty products etc.

The upside is that I don't have any issues about the shape of my body!

I have a 12 year old dd who is, I think, pretty secure about how she looks(so far) I think what has helped her is always being very physical - I have encouraged her to get sweaty and messy as much as possible - trying to show her that often you have to forget about how you look to have fun. She loves riding and Scouts and enjoys getting wet and muddy!

She loves clothes and make up and all the girly stuff as well, and I have tried to be quite relaxed about what she wears and let her choose (we are very keen on charity shops, so she has been able to experiment with clothes from an early age without it breaking the bank) I have also turned a blind eye to a little make up to school - she feels better with a touch of brown eyeliner and brown mascara (she is a red head with transparant eyelashes). Her school is quite strict, so if she can get it past her form tutor then it's OK by me. I've also let her have Holiday Skin mousturizer for her legs because they are very very white.

I think what I am saying is this. Learning to accept how you look is hard for many
of us - especially with the media pressure around now. If I complained about any aspect of my appearance my mother's response was always "Nonsense, you're beautiful" She really believed this. If I had said to her "My eyelashes are too pale - can I wear some mascara?" she would have said "Nonsense, they're perfect, why should you?" The message I want to give my daughter is that she IS beautiful as she is, but if it would make her happier to have slightly darker lashes or slightly less white legs then she can. But it's to make her happier, not because someone else thinks that's how she ought to look.
Sorry for the ramble - hope it makes some sense!

Nutterly, I see your point (about looking stupid in suchandsuch clothes) but what do I say to my dd, 8 yrs and height/size of average 10 yr old, when she has grown too big for clothes or the are too tight around her emergent breasts () and she still wants to wear them? I usually say "I'm sure we can find something prettier/more comfy etc to wear"

We are very positive about her body, her soft skin, her beautiful hair, cute freckles etc as I do not want her to grow up with the issues my mother instilled in me.

But she has been called fat at school (she is correct cntile for height) and hates being taller/bigger/bigger feet etc than the pinfully skinny girls she is 'friends' with.

She has started eating only salad at school for lunch everyday - even on the day she has athletics and swimming (over 2 hours of PE) in one afternoon - I have explained this isn't enough and she needs some 'fuel for her engine'. Should I privately contact the school and ask them to endure she at least has some carbs (brown B&B is the only option not 1/2 jackets or anything) to keep her going as she is very pale and tired by the end of the day. We eat very healthily at home, although not obsessively.

<sorry for hijack>

Got interrupted yesterday and didn't mean to press post re DCs proudly showing off their 'fat' tummies (backs completely arched to make them stick out).

They do it because of a beloved great uncle who eats heartily and looks 9 month pg and they want to look like him. I meant to ask how mners would react to this. (At the moment I say 'yes, big fat tummy' because that's what they want to hear.) They are 5 and 3 and have been doing this for over a year so it's not really a phase.

Wondering whether I should tell them fat isn't healthy or just leave it?

I think it is good to promote an exercise habit from an early age, so encourage physical after school activities - gym, dance, swimming, ball sports etc and walking to school.

Ban women's magazines esp celebrity mags which go on and on about weight.

I just started a thread which kinda fits with this one! My dd, who is 12, asked if she could have salad for tea tonight, because she'd eaten rubbish all day! We eat all the normal things, we're not food freaks, we even eat sausage rolls, but through me, she has learnt that its everything in moderation. I think that because you are thinking about it so early on in your dd's life, you are on the right tracks already.

NEVER NEVER NEVER say they look fat/have x/y/z wobbly bits/look stupid in such and such clothes

I have a 16 yr old dd,she has a very healthy body image and is a fit and healthy size.

A good number of her friends are highly anxious about food and very thin.

I think it has to do a lot with personality of the child and general anxiety of the family.
Some of her friends have highly anxious parents,constantly worrying about their daughters friends,education etc.

These are the ones with the food issues.

I think a laid back relaxed attitude to life and good eating habits will stand your dd in good stead.

I do praise dd and tell her she's fab and gorgeous ,not just about her appearance but her personality as well.

Confidence is the key I think

I think it's really vital that parents have a positive attitude towards their own body - they need to eat healthily (not obsessively so) and take exercise and to embrace the body they were born with and make the best of what the genetic lottery of life gave them, and they need to communicate that message to their children.

Parents presumably found one another attractive, or they wouldn't have got together... and they need to communicate that they find one another attractive to their children.

I have got a 9 year-old DD. She is very slim and we are a slim and tall family, but I am shocked about the attitude she and her friends have towards bigger people. Makes me very
Fat seems to be the same as stupid and I don't know how to stop this attitude except for obviously talking to her about her attitude.

Apart from this I agree with telling them how beautiful they are every day and never every express negative attitude about your own body in front of them.

Good thread - I had food issues from aged about 11 to 21 and still have a few that I can't shake (body dysmorphia - spelling?!) although I'm usually grounded by the fact that my young niece is in a wheelchair for life and even if sometimes I don't like how my body looks, at least it all works.

In any case, I have two DD's (5 and 4) and I really, REALLY don't want them to go through what I went through growing up as it made me soooooooooooooooooo unnecessarily miserable for such a long time.

I try my hardest not to complain about my size/weight/shape in front of them and will never use word fat. I tell them that they are gorgeous and in perfect working order(!) and I NEVER make them finish all the food on their plate (like I was made to when I was young) ... mind you, this brings on complications, particularly from DD1 who adores 'sweet stuff' .... "How many mouthfuls before I can have pudding Mummy?" ... which it's sometimes hard to be consistent over. She's slim as a whippet though and we eat pretty good food in this house, so I'm loving the fact that biscuits, cakes, crisps, lollies, sweets etc. are all thrown into the mix every now and again and hopefully are considered normal but not something that's craved for beyond everything else. That's what I strive for.

Oh to be a mother of daughters in this day and age ...

When I was a toddler my mum says I hardly ate for months, my gran wouldn't let it be.

As a teen I was excruciatingly skinny with no boobs and my mum had always kept my hair short, so you can imagine my discomfort. I was good at cross country running, was always active, did paper rounds and obviously had a very high metabolism as I ate loads!

Anyway good old gran did it again and always went on about me eating more. I look back to my wasted teens and 20s, as I covered up to hide my bones and slouched to hide my lack of boobs, and cringe!

My dd is nearly 3, if she doesn't eat food I leave it, I do not make a big deal about it. We don't tend to do puddings as I daren't get into a battle of wills. She'll eat when she's hungry so I refuse to make an issue of food.

We tell her all the time how gorgeous, beautiful, cute she is. She is very confident and sailed into playgroup a few months ago without a moments separation anxiety.

I pray and hope I'm doing the right thing to minimise any body anxiety in future.

Lots of use of the F word in this housen but in a positive sense. DD is 3.5. DS is 5. They get down from the table after the meals and proudly show off their 'fat' tummies (backs completely arched to make them stick out).

my dd was always 'sturdy' - not fat but just erm...square? does that make sense. anyway she wasn't in the least bit dainty or feminine in appearance ( didn't have hair til she was three!)

My mum was a firm believer in the general rule that kids know their own balance with food. ofcourse we give guidelines etc. but if a kid gets enough excersise - playground walking toand from school - and they have a school dinner and a decent tea - then a few swees or even a snack in between isn't going to kill them or make them fat - i mean really its common sense isn't it.

anyway, people always seemed to think that they could say thingslike " don't eat tha you'll get fat" i mean it was reall quite surprizing how common it was. even the priest said something when he came to tea - and he wasn't an old priest either - i got some mr kipling outo go with his brew and he said something to Ez like " watch out you'll get fat"

now i think thats realy rude of anyone to say - family members usually men used to say things refering to her weight - and i always had to say " sh'es only 6" or she's only 9 an sh'es perfect"

i thinkits about letting otherpeople know to shut the fuck up.

i'm not worried. she's not worried, other people have now learned on thew hole to shut the fuck up.

i don't believe n placing a negative on any food - not KFC, not sweets, not thngs i dont likent like - i encourage my kids toat least try stuff and EZ will

my boys screw their noses up - but EZ will at least try stuff.thats an elongted wa of saying that

notice their body type
take note if they get enough excersise on balance
then as long as they aren't piggin it
you feed em good stuff
they mght eat a bit of shit
tell other people to shut th fuck up
encourage positive food thought
tell em they are gorg all the time

becuase you as the parent are the biggest influence

I have 5 dd's and this video really made me think

www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkaPs8CIipw

Noone uses the word fat in our house either and I don't ever moan about myself in front of them

I developed an eating disorder and it was only as an adult that I realised my mother NEVER mentioned someone without commenting on their weight. Lots of the women in her family had been fat and she was terrified of appetite and being overweight.

I have a daughter who LOVES to eat, I think it's great. I intend to steer clear for as long as possible of anything which places great emphasis on her 'looking pretty', even though lots of people around us seem to want to buy pink/sequins etc etc.

I heard an item on Vanessa Feltz's radio show today about Pamper Parties for girls as young as four and I just felt revolted by it.

I think you need to show that you are perfectly accepting of yourself, that you respect your own body and that she is lovely just as she is.

Message withdrawn

I was anorexic between the ages of 14 and 19 and even now don't particularly like my "fatter" self, even though I'm not fat at all, if you see what I mean.

My parents raised me with lots of praise for how I looked and openess about the body. We ate round the table as a family with no tv, ate well, treats as well as lots of fruit and veg, my mum never complained about being fat.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't think it's something you can control and if your child is going to have hang ups they will probably have them anyway.

This is a good topic. I am very worried about this issue. My mother had an ED and passed it on to me. I was quite glad in a way that I had a boy but I still want him to have confidence about the way he looks and be accepting of the way other people look. I also want more children so I could have a girl and would hate to pass on my problems with food.

Your daughter is lucky to have you as her mum.

Wow had no idea I'd get such great replies, has given me a lot to think about.

I too think the father thing is important. My mother was skinny and very attractive in her youth(thankfully dd won't be up against that problem ) and my father could make some cutting remarks unwittingly about me 'thunder thighs"etc. My mother was forever critising her appearance as she aged which I'm sure made me look at myself more critically. Am determined never to winge about appearance even on a crap hair day

Thankfully my dp is brilliant and thoughtful, would never ever make derogatory remarks about appearance so hopefully thats one area sorted. Was very interested to hear about the physical play thing she has twin brothers so the 4 of them are forever playing rough and tumble, will encourage that a bit more as I've read it's very good for boys too.

Like the focusing on the good too, hadn't thought of that. My little girl is obviously the most beautiful girl in the world so will find this easy to do

Some good ideas on Zippi's list,the decisions thing was interesting,(we are having a few clothing battles already)think maybe I ought to let her wear her sparkly silver disco dress and ladybird wellies to pre-school now and again as requested

Many thanks all!!!!!

My 9yr old is slim. She eats moderately and takes lots of exercise. We tell her she is beautiful all the time - she is. But she isn't interested in clothes or shoes at all. A year or so back she started talking about being fat which was ridiculous and there is a lot of concern about bodies in her class - ironic really as so many of them are (not to put too fine a point on it) fat. I think part of her tomboyishness is an attempt to distance herself from all that nonsense - she is very active and the only thing that bothers her now about her body is that it works so that she can do all the things she wants to. Long may it last.

I have a friend who is a pychiatrist - and she told me to focus on the positives ! My dd is quite chubby at the moment - but we are doing the exercise and healthy eating thing to try and sort that out - but anyway - she has incredibly slim shapely legs - so my friend told me to praise her legs everytinme she moans - so we have bought some really cool shorts for the summer and that's what I'm doing - she says "I'm so fat - look at my tummy" and I say " Yes but it's only puppy fat - and look at your gorgeous legs - you are so lucky - people would kill to have legs like those ! " etc etc.

I think it is important to accept that they are a bit chubby if they are as denial helps no one really !

I also do the "there is more to life than looks" line and encourage her to look beyond the apearance !!!

I have 2 dses, so no advice on dds, but I applaud your efforts and think body image is a real issue. I grew up with serious hang ups about my body and have had weight problems and eating disorders -- now I feel pretty confident, and have done for the last few years, but when I think of the amount of energy I expended from the age of 7 or 8 onwards, and the opportunities to connect with people that were lost becuase I was certain they couldn't possibly be interested in me, it makes me feel so sad.

I have 5 nieces and I watch them all worrying about these things and dealing with them in different ways. Although personality/temperament do play a role, I think you are right to actively try to foster self-confidence and independence early on.

One of my students recently did a study on women in the media (based on plenty of existing practical and theroretical research), and the vast majority of stories about women have to do with their bodies or fashion rather than their actual achievements. This has to have an effect on the way we see ourselves.

I don't know if you saw last week's Child of Our Time, but they demonstrated this with an interesting discussion with the children about their bodies: all the girls showed an inordinate amount of interest and wanted to be underweight, whilst the boys could hardly be bothered to talk about it! OK, hardly a scientific study, but I'm sure you can see the same in RL everyday.

My advice then? Limit exposure to harmful messages in the media about women and their bodies. Encourage the view that a woman's worth is more than just her body or her looks.

Yes, there was a study done that found that the father/daughter relationship was crucial for a girl's development, to the point that her periods will start later if she has a good relationship with her dad.

My DD is 4 and small and pretty and I do sometimes mention it but I found her dance/drama class people are always telling her she is "cute"....! They make a real fuss of her. I stress to DD it is better to have kind thoughts and be considerate to people and animals, but I don't feel I can say "don't make a fuss of my daughter!"

Gosh, it is hard!

my dad did the jokes about my appearance-singing songs about big feet and another about 'hey fatty bum bum'

i hated it

My dad, although awful in many other ways, constantly told me how strong, healthy and good I looked (and I was a plump child). He used to make a really big deal out of it and although he never used the word pretty or beautiful, as a child I used to feel really proud of myself when he said I was strong and healthy. My mum also never critised herself physically. It was only when I got into my 20s that I realised that I wasn't the optimal weight.

MY mother was always on about her weight. She was always saying she was fat and was going on a diet. From as far back as I remember. She loves her kids but she never told my or my sister we were pretty. My sister and I both ended up with food/weight/confidence issues. My sister was annorexic and I dabbled with bulimia. I always thought I was fat although after having a baby and doubling my body weight I now realise that a size 12 isn't fat!! God works in mysterious ways I would love to have a mother who thinks I am gorgeous. I think that's the key.

I have a very positive body image which I'm convinced is all down to my mother. I always thought she was incredibly attractive but I think the thing that sticks in my mind even now is that she was (and still is) simply very comfortable in her own skin. She knows her 'flaws' but embraces them instead of trying to hide them or worry about them. Like you mm, I have never heard her be negative about her appearance or weight or for that matter mine (she thinks I'm gorgeous) FWIW, I was heavily into Barbie as a child and had a huge collection but I never felt pressure or even wanted to look like her. I do however recognise that there is clearly far more pressure now than there was when I was growing up - and unfortunately it seems to be starting earlier and earlier

Not quite the same thing, but I had relatively few hang ups, even though my weight fluctuated as a teenager,and think that was my mother and father always telling me I was pretty enough - ie I looked fine but it didn't really matter anyway as there were more important qualities that I also had. It was doubly important as my mother is a real beauty, and I would have people coming up to me and saying "what a pity you look like your father.!

Oddly enough, I have only recently wavered in my self confidence, and that's after I moved out from under their wing. But I'm getting it back.

I think dad's point of view is important too - my dad made jokey negative comments about my body when I was a teenager and it always stayed with me.
Also, I have read somewhere that being able to engage in physical play with dad is good for girls confidence altogether.

I have 2 DDs (grown-up) who seem to be OK with themselves now, but DD2 def had ishoos when a teenager (verging on the bulimic in fact, although she kept it v quiet)

They have different body shapes, dunno if that made any diff. Dieting and size have never been even mentioned IIRC.

zippi's suggestions are great though

OK, this is boring boring and not what you asked, but growing up I was always skinny, I had (nd have) small boobs, and have always hated my body, I am a size 10 now and 5'9", have had 2 dc, I realise that hating my body is childish and pathetic, I am hppy with the way I look in clothes but still hte me naked. Ridiculous, vain, childish nd silly.
My Mum was so bloody open and unintentionally insensitive to me growing up, she would always be naked wherever possible, guess she was just being relaxed, but it was excrutiating. I always wanted to wear jumpers on the beach (well to be fair we mostly went on holiday in Scotland!) When I ever tried to talk to her about anything embarassingly teenagery, body wise, she always talked too loudly and openly to prove that these things were ok and good to be open, but it sent me running for a cave.
No advice, but my Mum did it wrong.

probably not much help here but i've x 2 daughters who've been brought up in exactly the same way.However,my eldest-now 10-who is very,very pretty (that comes from people in the street etc.) has got hardly any interest in how she looks except now and again she thinks she's a bit "chunkier" than her friends.however,-touch wood- it doesn't seem to worry her at all. My son-who's the middle one-tells her if she looks "good or bad" and if it's not what she wants to hear she just jibes back at him.However,my youngest dd-now 8-is very sensitive about what she looks like.she's forever checking out her backside in my mirrors and making her sure her hair is perfect etc.etc.I really do think it depends on the child's personality and confidence etc.no matter what you try to do to steer them in a certain direction.

I think Zippi seems to have covered it all there

i doint think barbie is going to whisper anything bad to her

i think the first thing is to not think about it

except to offer healthy food

dont be afraid yourself because that will start to make issues where there are none

plenty of long walks and family exercise bikes and outdoor play

things to do that encourage the imagination

opportunities to meet children of different aghes and backgrounds

varied experiences

talking at meal times about interesting things rather than with the tv on

helping you cook and shop

independence and not being as clingy parent

listen to her but dont badger her with yoiur questions and checking up

give her space as she gets older

dont be pushy and protectoive

and let her come to her own decisions from an early age she should learn to manage being in congtrol rather than it being imposed from the outside

structure but not oppression

My dd is 31/2 and I sooo want her to love her body and how she looks.

So far so good as she's only small but I fear she'll be bombarded with all the appearance/media stuff when she starts school so want to get a head start on her feeling confident enough to ride it all out.

At the moment I make sure I never critise my body /appearance in front of her as poor love she's the spit of me so a size 14 pear shape is her destiny. We've also avoided Barbie which she isn't really interested in anyway.

Those of you with very confident daughters re appearance and body image how did you achieve it? Any tips?