dd1 (7 next month) has always been high maintenance. Never played well on her own, always wanting attention, gets into big tangles over everything, you know the type.

She's extremely academic and an obsessive rule follower so school in the learning sense has never been a problem. Socially, however (at school and home and everywhere really) she is just so DIFFICULT. She tries to play with younger brother and sister but goes totally over the top, almost hysterical. It's like she doesn't know how to just play and enjoy, and has some rule system going in her head all the time. Honestly, I think she would have done better in Victorian times when you just said what was expected of you rather than what you actually felt.

I was brought up in a very stiff upper lip, keep up the appearance kind of way, and I have made a lot of effort to be open and encourage expression of emotion with my dcs. So why does she find it so difficult? My other 2 have no problem. She's also incredibly black and white about everything and finds imaginative/creative things hard. I have tried the "How to talk so kids will listen" approach to try to get her to problem solve a bit more, but she just gets annoyed with me and says "But you're not telling me what I need to do!"

Does anyone else have a child like this? How can I help her?

What do her teachers think? obviusly I havent seen her but from what you have said I would be concerned about aspergers. But it could just be her personality and a diificulty in social situations

I'm going to recommend a book to you, it has a chapter about how to help children like this, it gives strategies and examples to help the child look at their behaviour from another perspective. My ds was slightly similar, he's lovely now. The books called the Unwritten Rules of Friendship. It's about £8 from Amazon.

dylanthecat, I honestly don't think she has aspergers. I would have sought help much earlier if I suspected that. It's more that she just can't seem to be herself, like she's awkward in her own skin. Maybe she's just a bit geeky. Fair enough I suppose. She does have friends but complains that they just want to walk around in the playground gossiping! She would rather read her encyclopaedia.

I just worry that it's something I've done I suppose. I know she must pick up vibes from me as I do get irritated by her behaviour. I also see aspects of my own personality in her but I had always assumed these were down to my retentive upbringing!

Avenanap, thanks for the recommendation. What do you think helped your ds to change?

well like i said it was only on the basis of what you had said and we have had parents who think ASD doesnt affect girls

If its her personality could she not join a group she is intrested in to meet children with the same intrests?

Yes she does do football which she enjoys (structure and rules!) although we often have a scene if her team loses or she feels she hasn't played well enough. It's so wearing.

She gets so anxious about everything and can't seem to relax. To me the tings she gets all wound-up about seem trivial but I know they are not to her. For example, yesterday we were at a theme park with the gp's (staying with them as school hols). She said she didn't want to go on the carousel so ds went on without her. For some reason (maybe she was wishing she'd gone on too but would never say that openly or admit to it if I suggested it) she then yelled in a horrible shrill fake voice "that's a rubbish ride to choose!" over and over again at ds. Is that not a bit strange? It's so hard not to get annoyed with her as it feels like she's spoiling things with her weird behaviour.

He couldn't see that others were reacting in a negative way towards him because of the things he did, nor could he see when he had crossed the line. The book helped him, we did some role play etc.

KTNoo

I think maybe you have identified part of the issue when you talk about your own reaction to her behaviour.

By no means I am saying you create her behaviour but I think it's really easy to get into a kind of vicious circle of winding up and irritation with kids. My dd is much younger than yours but can also be very anxious in the way you describe. I have to make a conscious effort not to let it 'get to me' and to show her how to relax and have fun (whilst giving her the support she needs). She is sooo much better when I do this!

Could you invite some of her school friends round and do something really fun together?

Role play is a possibility, if I could get her to do it - I can imagine her just getting all silly because she felt self-conscious.

I don't understand exectly what's going on with her. She comes across all confident and bossy but surely she must be feeling insecure or she wouldn't act so strange?

I agree with avenanap that role play might help to develop interpersonal her skills and see social situations more clearly. Could you try to get her intrested in something that doesnt involve rules as such like brownies (or do they have to be nine) but where they do a range of activitys that might intrest her? That involves more interacting than football so she would have to practice her social skills

You do sound very critical of her. Maybe that is making her self-conscious. If she knows that her mum is quite negative about her, it's going to colour all her interactions with people.

What do school say KTNoo?
Has she been assessed or referred for anything - not Aspergers necessarily, but you say she is academically very able. Could she be gifted academically but struggling socially, which is often one of the indicators for "true" giftedness?
I will say one thing though - I know one child very like your dd from the sound of it, and he has made great strides socially during Year 4 at school.
Your dd is still pretty young (for the school year she is in too) and she may well hit her stride around 8-9, which is when children become far better at realising what parts of their behaviour are having a negative effective on friendships...and managing to change themselves.

she sounds like a not hugely untypical geeky eldest child dd to me, tbh. there was a thread a while back and loads of us either were or had highly-strung, intelligent eldests.

She may be too young for Brownies but do they have Rainbow Guides locally?
Things a rule-conscious child might also enjoy include sudoku, chess, even a martial art.

sorry to interrupt but - avenap, weren't you going to change your name?

we came up with some fine suggestions if I remember correctly

Oh yes indeed Aitch sigh. Luckily ds and I sing from the same child brainiac hymn sheet, so to speak...but I didn't have the sort of upbringing KTNoo describes, so it's not a flash point in our house

It's just who she is - maybe you could try accepting her as an individual and she might open up a little more to you, if she wanted to - but surely its about who she is not who you or other siblings are. Surely you can make her feel accepted even if she is differnet from you?

Harpomarx, I agree that I haven't always handled her well. I think we are quite similar and she winds me up, much more so than ds who is much more classically naughty but just wears his heart on his sleeve. And dh, who is more like ds, can often humour her out of a mood.

I sometimes think she just wants to do the right thing but doesn't know what that is. I noticed lately that when she says or does something inappropriate I deliberately don't react and just smile at her but she says "What?" in a horribly fake voice as if she's just trying to get a reaction from me.

She particularly enjoys adult attention, and one thing I find difficult to ignore is when she actually corners another adult and gives them some long monologue. On occasion they have actually been looking pleadingly at me to rescue them!

How do you get your dd to relax and go with the flow a bit more, harpomarx?

re the friends thing, we do have kids over regularly, and she wants a sleepover for her birthday - God help us!

i often wonder how having your world turned upside-down with the advent of a new sibling could possibly not affect a child and make them crave rules and regs.

gosh, kt, with the absolute best will in the world it doesn't sound as if you like her v much...

I don't know how a six year old can be called emotionally stunted. Six year olds react to what is happening in their surroundings and to the people who are taking care of them.

Maybe she needs to be helped about what to do KTNoo. She is only six after all.

as a former very socially awkward child....

make her feel loved and accepted as she is, that will help reduce her anxiety. encourage interests that will suit her. then once you are both in a better place, gently encourage more appropriate social behaviour - if she is very "rules oriented" then a book such as Avenap has mentioned may be surprisingly well received.

I have to say I think "emotionally stunted" is really not a very nice description, and nothing you have posted actually suggests that anyway!

Recognise that 'I think we are quite similar and she winds me up' feeling, KTNoo. That's my mum, me, and dd!

I guess there are parts of your personality that you are not quite happy with and you are upset when you see them emerge in your dd 'cos you have tried really hard to bring her up differently to the way you were brought up? Like it took having a child for me to realise that I'm still quite a shy person (was a shy child) despite my confident exterior.

As I said, my dd is much younger than yours but I recognise that she doesn't want attention focused on her till she's ready and also needs a lot of support. So, I've given up expecting her to 'be like other kids' and just support her (with cuddles or whatever) until she is ready to join in.

The main thing for me is to provide a role model of how to behave with other people - relaxed, happy etc. That goes for her friends as well as other adults. I try to minimise her more extreme reactions by comforting her until she calms down.

Sounds like typical eldest child syndrome! I was definitely a bit like this when I was a kid, and not that much of a girly girl which made it a bit harder to make friends. My poor parents tried to develop my creative/social/sporty side with various activities where I was lacking - but this didn't really work as it just made me unconfident and so I overcompensated on the bossiness / perfectionist front! I did enjoy swimming though and really benefited from this, so I'd say sport is excellent if she enjoys it.

So maybe you should boost her confidence by playing to her strengths. Once she is more confident she may be more willing to take risks developing the more latent aspects of her personality.

I agree she might enjoy Brownies - I did. It can be a welcome break from being the eldest child as it can be very nurturing and supportive.

Or maybe music/kids orchestra type activities too.

I am still not much of a girly girl, and am still a bit of a bossyboots/ perfectionist, but I chose a career where these are advantages. Society can be very harsh on little girls who do not fulfil the stereotype of sweet-natured, docile, pretty little angels. But these attributes can be rather a disadvantage in the modern adult world.

I was very much this child.
I loved structure and rules had my head in a book was very different to my peers. I also always seemed very bossy and confident but was and atill am extremely shy. It was just the way I was built.
As a child I remember finding role play and imaginitive games difficult as for some reason I felt very self concious doing them. I am not sure anymore why in all honesty. My parents were great parents really but I did feel mocked at times, my dad would laugh if I did something silly and I felt laughed AT he never meant it cruelly but it did hurt and I have wondered if that had anything to do with it.
I grew up with few friends but they were good friends and some of them I am still in touch with now. I was never particulary lonely either.

I think what monkeytrousers says is very very true just accept her how she is, I feel my mum although did/does love me very much never really understood me and never really tried to and I noticed and felt it.

As I grew up probably by the time I went to secondary school I did blossom a bit, made some new friends and came out of myself a bit and found a bit of inner confidence.
Inside there is a bit of me that is still that awkward geeky kid but age has made me care less about what other people think and have naturally found that confidence.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

I do think I can get into a negative rut sometimes. I am trying to accept who she is and not compare her. She is a lovely girl, I just wish she could accept herself a bit more then she would be free from all the pressure she puts on herself to be the best at everything. It takes some of us a lifetime I guess!

DNMW, yes she is still very young. I don't know if she's gifted. Her reading was recently assessed at age 12. School are happy with her, but do say she's very black and white and can get frustrated with the other children if they don't live up to her high standards!

Tomorrow we're going out for lunch just the 2 of us, as we have gps to babysit the other 2 this week. I realise that a lot of the time I'm busy with the younger ones and not always able to give her the time she needs.

Re brownies etc, it's difficult as we don't live in UK.

If you accept her it's likely she'll accept herself, KTNoo. Sorry to be simplistic, but you're expecting a six year old to do something that you haven't managed to do for her.

Totalchaos, I agree it's not a nice description. I couldn't think of a nicer way to sum up the situation. What do you suggest?

Dittany you are right of course but it is over-simplified. We all bring our crutches to every relationship.

has social difficulties? socially awkward? Out of interest, have you ever felt that you or your parents were "emotionally stunted"?

I'm asking that as I wonder whether the words "emotionally stunted" came to mind as part of a criticism of yourself/your upbringing that's already bubbling under in your mind.

If she has a reading age of 12 already then she is clearly very, very bright.
Enjoy your lunch together, and if you possibly can, give your dd time to grow into her brains. What is cussed and opinionated at six/seven can be utterly delightful at eight and up.
See how much more time you can both squeeze out of the gps' visit this week.
I hope there is appropriate local support for bright children where you are. We do mock the whole G & T charade in Britain (for good reason I have to say) but I think it can offer a real lifeline to children like your dd.

Hmm...I would definitely say that at least one of my parents is totally and utterly emotionally stunted. The other is improving. I have changed totally as an adult, mainly thanks to dh's wonderfully open family. Said "improving" parent has become more open recently, possibly due to me initiating more open conversations, not that we talk deeply enough to actually discuss that!

You are right that it is something I worry about for my children. As we have always encouraged feelings, both positive and negative, it is frustrating that dd seems to put on a front a lot of the time. I even had a rare confrontation with my parents about it once - dd was stamping her feet about something and my mum stepped in to threaten some punishment if she didn't stop. I told my mum that dd is allowed to be angry if she wants to. Stamping you feet is not a crime.

My DD can be very "this is how it should be".
I find reading stories about schools (Naugtiest Girl, Jennings) where children interact and have adventures and then discussing what the children did, rights, wrongs, wiseness, appropriateness of what they did etc and it helps her work out things to do with social situations. We had a long discussion about Joan being afriad of the dark for instance (Naughtiest Girl books) as DD felt an older girl should not be afraid of the dark. I was able to tell her that all people are different and how to look beneath one explaination and try to think hard about a situation.
although she has a good reading age she may not be able to make rational assessment/criticism of what she is reading so a discussion of whys and wherefores of stories might help her understand life's ambiguities and help you fell less irritated with her.
Spike Milligan's poems are great as DD felt they were "stupid and silly" at first but we persevered and now she thinks they are funny and knows many by heart.

so if you look at yourself as a role model, or even your "improving" parent, the "stuntedness" is something that can be got over as you mature. Even if your DD doesn't always instinctively "get" the appropriate responses, it's something an intelligent girl can learn. Possibly your DD might find doing some drama classes helpful, to encourage her to see that people feel differently in different situations?

DNMW, I love the idea of growing into her brains! Sometimes we expect too much of her because she's so articulate and knows so much. Today she told her brother to stop being so pedantic - fine one to talk! The school is great but it's an embassy school full of high flying diplomats' kids so she doesn't stand out really!

Miggsie, good idea to talk about the books she's reading. She's into Roald Dahl at the moment and can tell me the plot accurately but not sure about how she interpretes it all. We had a similar situation to you - some friends were telling us they had just got a dog to try to help their 10 year old conquer his fear of dogs, at which point dd piped up loudly " He's in year 5 and he's scared of dogs?!"

I really feel for you KTNoo. I have/had similar feelings about my ds1, but I have been helped by gaining a deeper understanding of his needs because he does have aspergers (I appreciate that your dd does not).
It took me ages to grasp that he was not just being ridiculous and that he had this mass of anxiety inside of him of him that creates all of the madness.
i know how excruciating it can be - I was stood in the kitchen today listening to my dh attempt to deal with a screaming fit in the garden. Ds was so high pitched and repetitive - it drives me mad and I know it's bad to think it, but what do the neighbours in their gardens think. A large 6 yr old boy screaming because his 3 yr old sister won't get on her bike at the same time as him.
She sounds like she feels under lots of pressure and finds life hard.
My dh have to make a real effort and adopt an 'oh bless him' attitude if you know what I mean. I still get cross with him, but I think he knows I appreciate him - because I have been making a huge point of searching out and talking about his positive things with him. I have actually added cuddles into his routine because he's not spontaneous like my other 2 with cuddles.
Sorry for such a long post. My ds is emotionally stunted too - it's aharsh term, but it's a fact and we're not bad mothers for saying it!

Thanks luckylady, good to know others go through these things. I know we have to accept our children for who they are - it just seems like all the other kids I see just plod on happily (I know that's probably not the case in reality!)

It's interesting what you said about finding life hard - I've always noticed that ds, who actually really struggles at school and needs a lot of extra help to learn, is so happy in himself anyway. dd has so much ability but makes things so difficult for herself anyway.

I like the idea of putting cuddles into the routine - she also do not initiate cuddles but does not resist either. I do make a point of praising her too.

I think the problem is that you are trying to make her into something she isn't. Let her be herself. Do you have fixed ideas of what a 'girl' should be like (ie thick, subservient, always making nicey-nice)? The things you are criticising are things that are often called 'unfeminine' in females but are seen as acceptable in males.

My dd is like this. She is now 10. Misses social cues, is often bored, cant seem to think for herself unless she is critisizing others(so it seems to me) she may indeed just be notcicing the wrong bits in her Should Be Perfect world but good GOD its draining.
I have a mantra, if you have nothig nice to say dont say anything at all.
You are not alone!
She does have her good bits too, but...

No I definitely don't want her to be typically girly or anything like that. She might actually come across to someone who doesn't know her well as nicey-nice actually, but I know she's putting it on and actually feeling grupmy or whatever because she's trying to conform. That's my point - she can't seem to be herself. I just want her to feel genuinely happy.

charliecat you are describing my dd! It is indeed very draining. And I have also said the "If you haven't got anything nice to say...." She hangs next to me waiting for me to tell her what to do, which I now refuse to do - instead I ask her what she wants to do. It's so bizarre - I thought children needed to be entertained all day long until I had 2 more who just go off and play (and get up to all sorts of mischief, but that's another thread....)

im not even going to PRETEND to do this myself, but a list on the fridge to choose from?
My dd isnt good at choosing either, she can stand in front of the book shelf for AGES and i will end up passing her one to read...quite sad really But when shes still there maybe 19 mins later you just think OMG here you go! You will enjoy that.....
Choosing things i in general will limit it to two things or it just turns into an irritated discussion
Give her direction....but i am also trying to teach the theory i NOT being told what to do. And be very enthusiastic when she does use her <very clever> own brain.

oh and my dd doesnt seem to share the same need to be part of a group/befriend children either. And misses other kids eye contact (or ignores it? doesnt read it?) but has somehow <eek> got to year 5 ok
she is VERY good at manipulating play situations to how she wants things to go...

For someone who espouses the "if you can't say anything nice" mantra, charliecat, you're doing a jolly good job being nasty about your daughter.

Both of you sound very critical and rejecting of your daughters.

yep which is fine fine fine coming from folk who dont have a child like this...i also have a other dd who is nowhere as draining as this.
which is why i came on the thread so that KTNoo wasnt being jumped on all by herself, as i could see thats where the thread was going.
Its all very well saying my children are perfect and loving and beautiful and well balanced and socially blended and all that crap, but lifes NOT like that.
I love my dd, for who she is, but the truth of the matter is she IS harder work than my other dd/other kids I know. I also know similar kids who are JUST as draining/even more so.
They are still nice kids. They just arent EASY.
And if you cant say so on MN where can you?

Have you tried giving her the structure she seems to crave?

I think I may have BEEN this child. Very annoying, bossy, fake and intelligent. As I have grown older I have realised that that is OK, I am not "hiding" behind anything I really AM bossy and annoying and not insecure at all!

I still get very annoyed when things are not done the way I want them done (but obviously have learned to keep my mouth shut sometimes!). I am also very manipulative, but I have made that work to my advantage in life, I find out what makes people tick/which buttons to press and often use it to get my way, I have just developed tools to make other people happy at the same time.

Nothing makes me happier than clear "rules" for a situation whether I provide the rules or whether they are provided by someone else. I find it much much easier to relax and enjoy myself.

For instance we travel a lot, I plan a 5 day trip for months before hand, I need to know which planes, which buses, trains, where to get taxis, I study the layout of cities, book accommodation. Only when I have enough information can I relax and be "spontaneous" i.e. I can change my plans because I already have about 50 different plans mapped out anyway.

I used to bump up against my mother an awful lot of the time and in hindsight I was as annoying as all hell! Probably still am, but DH is my complete opposite, i.e. leaves everything to the last minute and will quite happily live in chaos, we fit together very well because between us we are a normal person!

I don't think Charliecat comes across as rejecting at all; she is describing a very genuine problem that her daughter has. Of course you get worried and frustrated as a parent; it's because you care about your child and you can see what difficulties their way of being might lead them into.

Would I be rejecting my dd if I pointed out that she can't walk? Or that my (also hypermobile) ds eats like a pig and still can't use a fork properly at age 7? It's a fact- do I have to pretend it's not happening? Of course, it would be nice if we all had perfect children, but I thought MN was about lending support when things aren't perfect.

As I read Charlie's post, I seemed to recognise a child I knew when I myself was a child, and I felt it was good to come back and read about her from the point of view of someone who loves her and sees her as a person. It's so easy to dismiss somebody who has this type of problem.

I also found the OPs posts very hopeful. They do indeed suggest (if you don't mind my saying so, KTNoo) that there is some sort of genetic trait in your family that makes it less easy for you to click into easy interaction with others- but they also very strongly suggest that this is something that can be overcome with maturity. Which is good.

havent has time to read all posts, but what you decribe is similar to a friends dc.

That child was seen by specialists, and the concerns were noted by teachers, and said child has a very mild form of aspergers.

My DD1 (now 11) was similar (but not so extreme maybe): she was v smart, bookish and shy which mean that rather than walk around at lunchtime chatting, she would just read a book. She was also v. uncor-ordinated which meant she was e geeky kid to the others: loved books, didn't do small talk and absolutely didn't do sports. Over time things have changed a lot as she has matured and teachers have helped bring her out of herself. Also, other kids now enjoy reading more so they can talk about books, her co-ordination is better so she can join in sports.

Love her for who she is and keep rerinforcing "nice" behaviour (ie not shouting at brother's choice of ride!) Speak to teachers and watch her mature: she'll change over the next 2 years as will her contemporaries

Just typed a long post then my connection failed so here goes again....

Thanks for all the support and suggestions. Didn't have time to read it all until just now.

Well me and dd had our lunch and it was lovely - I think she genuinely enjoyed it. I managed to ignore some strange comments and silly voices.

We had a small blip later when I got a bit irritated. We were all at the toy shop so dd and ds could choose bday presents from the gps (both bdays next month and gps won't see them then). They both chose something - fine - then dd pointed out that her present cost twice as much as the toy ds chose (he had no idea and was quite happy with what he picked). I explained to her quietly and kindly that it didn't matter as long as they both got something they wanted, but she just kept on and on, louder and louder, until ds started to suspect he was being done. She put on this weird face and voice, as if she knew she should just leave it but couldn't for some reason.

I know this has all been quite negative but I do love her for who she is, I just want to help her to relax and enjoy life instead of creating problems over things she doesn't need to worry about. This week we've also been at the theatre - it was interesting that ds loved it (it was a very imaginitive play we saw with lots of props that you were supposed to imagine were other things) but dd couldn't seem to get into it at all. She kept asking me why everyone was laughing and I felt so sad for her that she couldn't seem to achieve the "flow" needed to enjoy the experience.

morloth you sound similar to me. My dh is also very chaotic and goes with the flow. Funnily enough dd's need for structure and routine annoys him more than me - he's always trying to stretch her in small ways like crossing the road in a different place!

as an eldest child i think it's very, very, very important that things are FAIR. or it was to me at any rate, to the extent that even as a late teen i'd calculate whether my parents could afford x or y for all four of us at a time. so i never even asked to go on school trips, for example, because i couldn't have borne the unfairness of me getting something that the others didn't.

again, a pretty geeky eldest daughter, but tbh i do feel that as the eldest you are sent very conflicting messages. things have to be fair amongst you all is non-negotiable, surely? well, my parents told me that it was negotiable and i could go on school trips but to me it was very black and white.

so i think what i'm saying is... why didn't you just say 'oh yes, you're right, perhaps that isn't fair, why don't you help ds choose something else he'll like too?' if she was being a horror she'd NOT have mentioned it, don't you see? it did matter to her about the diddle going on, and to ds once he realised, couldn't it just be that she was protecting his rights from you, who wasn't. i think you're seeing that incident through rose-coloured adult eyes, tbh.

But there's no need to spend extra cash just for the sake of if it surely? I see your point, but it wasn't up to me by then anyway as grandad was in the middle of paying! But I do find it hard to do the "treat them all fairly but not necessarily the same" thing, probably because I'm an only child and I have 3!

i think that's a very idealistic adult view, tbh, and perhaps your only childness is influencing that.

dh is an only child, and i talk about making sure everyone had the same amount of food etc or that in a selection pack of crisps how we had to take it in turns to get first pick (last pick at some stage getting stuck with ready salted) and his eyes glaze over. his mum went to the cash and carry and got the big box of salt and vinegar, you see. only children get what they want, because there's no point in not getting it, iykwim? bigger families have to have systems in place for the little unfairnesses of life, and that's largely by being seen to be fair across the piece. i hope you see what i mean. i'd definitely 100% have given them the same amount of money, and if there was left-over then it would go in a piggy bank. but then i'm the eldest of four.

basically, you have to out-think grandad, he's an old man and even if he had more than one child it would have been his wife in charge of the kids. for a child who likes pattern NOT to have pointed this dreadful inequity out to her wee brother would have been unthinkable.

Hmm...I will have to think about this fairness stuff. dh (one of 4) is always telling me about all the systems they had in place, e.g. the one who cuts the cake into slices is not the first one to choose, and the complicated hierarchy they had for who got to sit in the front of the car etc etc. My only childhood could not have been more different - no real rules apart from always be nice and polite and smile and never say anything negative no matter how you're feeling inside!

it is really hilarious, i think. we're all well into our thirties and we still keep an eye on what everyone else has. my mum used to serve up our meals and any roast potato inequity was a crisis! now, as it happens i don't think this food competition is a good thing as it teaches you to over-ride your appetite cues, so i think that i'll serve stuff up in bowls, italian-style. but it gives you an idea, anyway, of how important it may have been that her wee brother wasn't getting scammed by you, which is rather sweet in a way.

dd once protested that I talked to ds for 45 seconds and to her for only 30! Oh good grief.

see... i just don't think you're getting it, KT.

But come ON, timing the lenght of time you talk to them....?!

I think Aitch is right, she was actually motivated by A Good Thing, making sure her brother got a fair deal. Your adult perspective is different, but that doesn't mean she's being unreasonable (although the way she went about it clearly wasn't desirable from your POV).

I'm also an eldest child and fairness was a HUGE thing for me. Still have to restrain myself now from comparing presents with my sister, for instance - even though I'm thirty-something. Not because I'd complain, obviously, I have managed to become a grown up, but I have this in-built justice monitor. Which has actually been bloody useful in all sorts of other areas - if only the rest of the world felt the ruddy same we'd have 99 per cent of the problems ironed out...

I know, KT, it does seem ridiculous, but I can really, really see it happening (and my mother was not a saint and did occasionally get VERY fed up with it).

OK then I accept she was acting out of concern for her brother. In a weird way.

KT, I don't think that timing the amount of time you talked to them is particularly unusual behaviour for a six year old. It would be totally wierd in an adult, but these things really matter to a certain kind of child. I was/am also a rather geeky eldest child, so perhaps that's why it makes sense to me!

FWIW, I don't particularly subscribe to the "if you haven't got anything nice to say..." school of thought - your dd sounds highly intelligent, and thinking critically is part of that. Obviously children need to learn not to be judgy and not to say critical things to people's faces, but as others have pointed out, critical thinking can also go hand in hand with concern for justice, truth etc. Perhaps one of the reasons she feels/acts awkward is because she is confused by some of the mixed messages/contradictions she sees around her?(Not in your family particularly, but just in the world in general.)

I don't like the "if you haven't got anything nice to say" thing either, but I have occasionally said it in moments of desperation, which is when I don't know what to do or say and probably revert to copying the way my parents were with me.

dd also once said that she wished she was the youngest then she would be the "special-est". They really know how to go for the jugular don't they? It was said in the context of me following dd2 (then 15 months and just walking) around at the playground and not being able to stay next to dd1 and ds (who was not in the least bothered) as much as she wanted. I did lots of reassuring and also explained that I did that with her when she was that age and why etc etc, but still felt guilty.

I think madamez said something quite interesting about you trying to make her into something she isn't.

I guess this is just the way she is. Quite a lot of children are like this I think (I am an eldest too and am still a very black and white sort of person, not very good with the grey, feel comfortable with rules, though I always liked being on my own!).

I think the attention seeking can be hard but is very much a feature of some children (one of mine is an excellent attention seeker, very impressive!). She's probably just trying to figure all the situations out - just trying to understand the 'rules' of social interaction and pecking order etc. but of course, as we all know, understanding 'rules' for social interaction is something that not even all adults have quite got right so she's got a lot of figuring out to do and that probably manifests itself in lots of questions and statements etc.

"OK then I accept she was acting out of concern for her brother. In a weird way."

how would you have her deal with a patently unfair situation, KT? shut up or speak up?

like the other eldests here, i can't bear unfairness, i find most mystifying when other people can just ignore it. like, really mystifying... no kidding. i don't get it AT ALL and i'm 37. what's your dh's eldest sibling like?

Yes foxinsocks, attention seeking is a feature. Not to focus on the irritating too much, but martyrdom has become quite a thing with her recently. The best example we have had lately (funny in retrospect) was at Easter time. We had friends over for dinner - their children were younger and dd had got bored very quickly. She suddenly appeared with a dramatic look on her face and declared "I'm too spoilt! I've had too much chocolate!" All the adults kind of stared at her in disbelief that a child would come out with something like that.

in fact, when i see people getting (imo, obv) picked on here i sometimes see how long i can go without posting, just as a weird test of myself. it's normally not long, i just don't have the self-control. i cannot compute peopel who don't stand up for others, and i don't mean that in an 'i'm great' way as it is actually quite awkward IRL and i'd prefer to be able to sit things out like most people. i wonder if that's what you saw when you thought your dd had a glint in her eye when she was telling him.

also, as a matter of interest, what would have prevented you from saying to grandpa at the till 'sorry, we have to queue again, cos dd has kindly pointed out that ds is getting swizzed here'? maybe she actually thought you'd be pleased? god knows what goes on in their brains, tbh, i remember being most upset when my folks couldn't see into my brain to see my motivation and judged me harshly for it.

oh I think it's marvellous but can fully appreciate how irritating it is. Dd is so bad, I have to laugh.

Our nanny and I had to have a serious chat with her yesterday because she had been eating berries and she KNOWS she musn't (she's 7 ffs!). She had the juice round her mouth and even tried to deny it.

Anyway, the nanny was saying 'you'd have to go to hospital and have your stomach pumped and it would be awful and you might have eaten a poisonous berry and then you could die' and dd said 'in the hospital, would I have my own bed and my own doctor? and then when I came out, I could tell everyone my stomach had to be pumped couldn't I'. She is always looking for an attention seeking opportunity. When we have people round, they suddenly morph into mad, weird children. It's just the way.

arrghh

Some children are just very good at this sort of thing!

I think it's a process of learning about situations and other people's reactions and liking the dramatic etc.

but WHY would she be mature enough to know that wasn't something you'd approve of her saying? presumably you don't want her to be spoilt? presumably you do limit her chocolate intake?

don't you remember how confusing it was to be that age, especially a girl with all that vocab and not yet the maturity to explain your thoughts?

AitchtwoCiao, obviously I want her to speak up about unfairness. But how far does this fairness thing go? I don't give them un-birthday presents for example, even though dd was obviously jealous on ds's last birthday. ds, on the other hand was just so excited to celebrate dd's birthday with her when it was the other way around.

dh and his older brother have never got on well although they can be civil nowadays. Don't know him all that well but don't think he's checking how much they're all getting from the parents. Why do you ask?

I think you just say in that situation 'you are older, therefore you are allowed a more expensive present so it's OK' (especially if ds is young enough/ not fussed enough to care)

she was looking for a rule there and in absence of a rule, she assumed everything had to be equal

what's his personality like, not whether he's still engaged in childish behaviour. ask your dh what he was like at that age.

actually, this is starting to get on my nerves a wee bit, which is ridiculous because i don't knwo you from adam, but you do seem to totally favour your ds.

so, brilliant that he was thrilled for your dd to have a good birthday. so what that she wasn't? they're not the same people. it's really unfair of you to compare them and frankly will add much more pressure to your dd's life, which will be counter-productive for you in any case.

so i do see that it's ridiculous, truly but i'm retiring from this for the night because i am rather unbelievably getting upset as i think you are being unfair on her.

aitch, you need to step into the grey. Come and join me, it's not so bad once we've found the courage to move off the black and white <links arms with fellow eldests>.

I must get to bed but KT, does she have any special things she does as the eldest? so can she go to bed a little bit later than the others or does she get a bit more pocket money or anything like that?

Oh no fox in socks I could never say that! That would definitely provoke a long and difficult discussion in the middle of the shop and then she would remember it every single time they were ever bought anything for the rest of their lives! She is always trying to catch me out by reminding me of the one time I didn't enforce a rule, sometimes remembering incidences from when she was 2! She has an amazing memory - everything she has ever seen or heard is in there, all neatly categorised for using at a later date.

AitchTwoCiao, of course I could have stopped granddad but I didn't. Re the chocolate thing - I think what was going on was she was bored playing with the other kids but knew that because the others were all playing happily then that was expected of her too. So instead of coming in and asking to sit with the adults or whatever, she thought up what she considered was a good thing to say to get sympathy which is attention.

well it was clever in a way wasn't it? she was bored and wanted to talk to all of you instead so tried to come up with a sort of conversation but she's not quite got adult conversation down pat as she's only 6.

the remembering rules is, as aitch said, the fairness thing.

thing is, I reckon you take this quite personally. You say 'she is trying to catch me out' - maybe she doesn't feel she is trying to catch you out, perhaps this is just the way life appears to her. Rules, rules and more rules. That's how life works for her - it's safe when it's governed by these rules. So it's not an attack on you, it's just her way of negotiating situations iyswim.

KTNoo - I have to say that everything you have said about you DD i could have writen about my DD.

The need for stucture.

wanting to cross the road in the same place
extremely academic
obsessive rule follower
black and white about everything
finds imaginative/creative things hard
anxious about everything and can't seem to relax
Very advanced reading age
not understaning why everyone was laughing at the theatre
enjoys adult attention

My DD is 5 (almost 6) she is academicly gifted, however she also has a diagnosis of Aspergers.

Im not for one minute saying that you DD has Aspergers!! My DD also has lots of other isssues to add to the list above. To be honest im not sure which causes us the most issues!! the fact that she spend most of her day at school board or the AS.

During my DD assessement process for ASD, i came across this site, i found it most helpfull.

www.gt-cybersource.org/Record.aspx?NavID=2_0&rid=11381

The traits for a child who is gifted and a child that has Aspergers are almarmingly similar and this site helps to separate the two.

I am truly sorry if i am speaking out of turn here, i did see early on in your thread that you dont believe your DD has AS. I always knew that my DD was differant which is why we took things further.

"she thought up what she considered was a good thing to say to get sympathy which is attention."

WHY does that annoy you so much? and why do you give a monkey's that the other adults at the table couldn't believe that a child of her age had said that? and WHY don't you think that mate of yours who gave you the pleading glance asking to be rescued from your own daughter wasn't in fact an ungracious twit who should have had the nous to say 'i'm off to the loo now' instead of embarrassing a child in front of her mother? i am getting stupidly cross with you here, but if someone did that to my kid i'd want them to fuck right off tbh, i certainly wouldn't feel a compunction to 'rescue' them.

i think you should start looking at yourself and your own upbringing tbh, you don't seem very easy-going either. you sound a bit ashamed of her tbh. and with that i really must go.

exactly, foxy. 'catch me out' fgs. she's your kid. she's at school where they're bossing her about all the time and her mother is clearly dissatisfied with her behaviour and lets her know it. why shouldn't she want some structure? you're making her sound sly and i'd bet a pound to a penny that's unfair of you.

I love the story about the berries! For some reason I imagine it in Lola's voice!

In answer to your question, she gets pocket money but the others do not yet. She shares a bedroom with ds who will not go to sleep on his own, so they go to bed at the same time. We will have to do something about that as they get older, but at the moment she says she's ok about it.

Aitch, I absolutely do not favour my ds. He is just different. I have way more battles of the traditional screaming tantrum kind but it's all so straightforward with him. I think if anything it's him who suffers because he just doesn't demand the attention that dd does. I make sure I have times when it's just her and me. ds deserves it just as much.

hah! unfair again. see? i can't help it.

all i'm going on is what you've written here, KT. to me it sounds like you prefer your son.

As another oldest child, I agree with all Aitch has said.

DS1 is a bit like this - he's much younger (4yo), but he gets very indignant about injustice, etc. I am often glad I'm his mum because he feels like an extension of me - I know what he'll think about any given situation and I can help him through the bits he finds really tricky because I have such vivid memories of that strength of feeling and nobody understanding why it was so important.

You sound like you resent her a bit, tbh - like she's getting in the way of your happy family. I'm sure you do love her, but I think you need to work out how to like her more.

And from what you've written, I don't think she's emotionally stunted - I think that's a spectacular missing of the point of how she is, actually.

An emotionally stunted child wouldn't understand the concept of fairness or being spoilt.

She sounds afraid - that's what funny voices and awkward behaviour are often about.

twocutedarlings, thanks for that link. I do wonder if there is a bigger problem sometimes, but got sidetracked from that by all the talk of me apparently favouring my other children.

Have only skimmed the article so far - will look in more detail tomorrow. I was thinking about the humour issue in particular. She is a serious child. When everyone was laughing in the theatre (and it was packed full of school kids who were ALL laughing), it actually wasn't funny really, just something silly appeared on stage and they all started laughing as a pack. Now that I think about it. That's different from not actually getting the joke, just not joining in if you didn't think it was funny.

If you don't mind me asking, what prompted you to have you dd further assessed?

She'll grow into her skin eventually - maybe at 11 or 12 - once she 'gets' the rules of social interaction and that aspect of her emotional intelligence catches up with her academic intelligence. She'll probably give you no trouble as a teenager; that'll be sociable ds' job who, as second sibling, will be charming but idle!

Aitch has raised some really interesting points which I am going to re-read.

Does dd respond better, when she does her silly voices etc, to a brief hug and an affectionate 'daft bat' to acknowledge she's being silly but is still loved?

she not following the herd, thats NOT always a bad thing
I had my dd assessed too btw and they said she was very powerful with her ways, but that she was ok and unless it was causing her issues at school then we would just see how it progressed.
That was 5 years ago. She gets disgruntled with the teachers saying We will do X tommorow the they dont, but its never been an issue with school, thankfully.

Here's to the teenage years then!

Heated, I try to respond to the way I think she's feeling and try to work out what the issue really is rather than what she's actually saying but it's so complicated. I sometimes give her a cuddle and try to change the subject if I think we've reached stalemate but she's not easily diverted to be honest. She's incredibly determined (a good thing I know) and sees everything through to the bitter end.

oh my dd often starts conversations about 5 steps away from the point? Do you know what i mean?

I have recently realised that he whole fairness thing is TOSH! At its simplest level, a child is being given/ asked to choose a gift. What matters is that appropriate levels of thought have gone into the choice/ choosing. It is much "fairer" to spend £10 on a 2 year old and £20 on a 10 year old than to spend equal amounts because their needs/ wants are different. Equality/ fairness doesn't mean treating everyone te same but recognising their differences... and accepting sometimes you get it wrong.

A while ago I read a very interesting article on why we should explain to kids early on that life's NOT fair... that's why the clever little girl/ boy whose parents love them just as much as you love your kids and who are decent people has a nasty disease that will shorten her life... life is unfair so what matters is what we make of it... this isn't an argument in favour of conservatism but a recognition that railing against the indiscriminate unfairness of everything is a huge drain on emotional energy that might be better spent on other things eg finding cure for illness.

Maybe start to introduce your DD to philosophical ideas: if she's smart, introducing the idea of conceptualisation of ideas might fascinate her and then lead on to other areas. Sophie's World by Jostein gaardner (?) as a bedtime story might work or if it's too complex, the author has written another, simpler book whose name I've forgotten

I think I know what you mean charliecat. Got any examples?

The main reasons was her lack of social skills and empathy, she showed very little interest in her peers. She has always played quite well with her younger sister and is just recently trying to interact more with other children.

She also has lots a repetative play, and never really played with toys in the way that they were intended.

She also has an amazing memory, and she too also remembers things that i have long forgotten about.

I have to say that getting a diagnosis has been one of the best things we have done, i totally have no regrets. Without it she would have be labled a disruptive child. From chatting to adults with AS i know that most that werent diagnosed until adult life say that if they have know the reason for why they felt and acted the way they do it would have helped them.

She now has the understanding that she diserves. Staff at her school have been given training, therefore they are better able to support her. I have read just about every aritcle i can find about girls with AS (which isnt alot) as it presents its self very differantly in girls, most of the info online is mainly geared towards boys.

I am more than happy to chat about my DD, so feel free to ask away, after all she is my favorite subject.

I would love to read a book like that to her pofaced. I really enjoy those kind of books/films now but came late to it - not something my parents would have encouraged!

dd - Did you got to your course today?

me - yes

dd - where did you park?

me - down near the driving centre place

dd - did you go past the pound shop?

me - yes, what it is your after dd?(clicking that shes actually asking if i went to tescos which is opposite the pouns shop)

dd- oh nothing, did you spend any money today?

me - yep, DD! what are you after!

dd - did you get any pringles...

me - FGS!lol yes cant you just bloody ask that in the first place...