I have accidentally found myself in the co-sleeping camp, and I'm sure you've all seen my previous posts on dd's sleep, or lack of it.

She is very unsettled in the evening, as if she is waiting for the time when I will put her in with us. I feel the co-sleeping is encouraging her evening wakings.

Have any co-sleepers had this problem? Or have your dc's gone to bed at the same time as you? Not an option for me.

I am an accidental co sleeper too. I think if you have a certain sort of baby they would wake up no matter where they slept. For us co sleeping was the only choice as DS loathed the cot with a passion and cried himself sick in there even if we were right next to him

My DS goes to bed at 7 ish and we go to bed at 10.30 - 11. He can sometimes be unsettled but these days I think it is more when he is over tired/has a cold coming/teething. When he was younger (now 19m) it was because he was waiting for us to come to bed.

When we found ourselves accidentally co-sleeping, we found it easier to settle dd2 downstairs on the settee then just carry her up when we went up.

It's not for everyone, but it worked for us.

dd goes to bed when I do. Or rather, I go when she does. About 9pm. She's now 4.

I just can't bring myself to let her sleep downstairs, or to go to bed at 9.30pm, which is what I did last night - what about time for dh and I? And to watch the Apprentice .

Nine - she definitely goes through phases of waking in the evening, and I think is cutting a tooth at the mo. I guess the fact that even when she got in with me she was still wriggling would suggest its something other than where she sleeps.

For ages and ages I could have written your post. Then at 15 months, for reasons totally unknown he started sleeping a 4 hour stretch at the beginning of the night. Sometimes, not always but it's more reliable.

He's still gradually improving on his own.

We put him in a tent style travel cot for a while (climbing out of other cot) and he slept better in that. We think because he could cuddle up to the side of it.

we put ds to sleep in our bed (we sleep on a mattress on the floor) at around 7-8 then we go up at around 11. he does usually wake up when we get into bed but that's more to do with dh's inability to be quiet! <<seethes>> (not likely to be a problem for much longer though )

My DD is nearly four weeks and MIGHT settle in cot or pram but only if she been asleep on me beforehand for at least half an hour. Usually i co-sleep as she is a big girl and wakes a lot (at least 3-4 times at night) for feeds.
I think she just likes the cuddles and closeness but she's still so young I wouldnt want to deprive her of it. I will probably still co-sleep when she's older tho.

You don't say how old your dd is, or whether she starts off in her own room bed/cot or is in yours to start off with?

We have always co-slept with ds (more accidental than deliberate but we find it works really well and we would have chosen it if we'd known!) and he starts off in his bed-side cot then comes in with us when he wakes, usu betw 11 and 12. He is now 23mo but we haven't had problems in the evenings since he was a few months old (I think, it's actually hard to remember.)

I am just wondering whether she'd be more settled if she started off in your bed with your smell (this doesn't apply if that is already the case, obviously!).

In the accidental co-sleeping camp too. She used to sleep downstairs then went to bed when I did but now has bath, books, bed and goes to sleep in our bed.

Same as Riven...plus extra baby now as well

sometimes they fall asleep on sofa, but carrying 4yo to bed and baby is like those 'how to get the fox and the chicken across the river with a holey boat' puzzles.

need a dh for that stuff! Have carried both at once before

ouch

urban...?

Nooname - She's one in a fortnight, and starts the night in her own cot, usually getting in with us between 10pm and 12pm.

I haven't tried putting her to bed in our bed, am a bit concerned she'd roll out tbh.

Mrsg - at your ds cuddling up to the side of his cot!

My co-sleepy is 3. I have to sit on the end of her bed til she falls asleep at bedtime (but this is to stop her getting up and playing with DS). I have tried sitting on her bed when she wakes at night, but she lies watching me to check i don't go, it can take 2 hrs to get her back to sleep. I've given up for now and she's back in my bed.

here Squonk (sorry for hijack)

Pinkjenny - get a bed rail?

Yep, exactly the same. DD is now 9 months, her cot is still in our room. She was going to bed at the same time (sleeping in the living room, then I'd take her to bed when I went). She'd wake in the night and feed 3 or 4 times.

It got to the point where she wasn't sleeping enough. She is quite happy on little sleep so it wasn't too much of a problem from that point of view, but from the babies need sleep view, I wasn't doing her any favours by not putting her in her bed at 7 IYSWIM.

So, I would take her to bed in her sleeping bag, feed her, she'd doze off and I'd put her in her cot, PING, she'd be awake. I spent two nights cuddling her and putting her down (took forever) the third and fourths nights I 'shushed' her and sat by the door. After that I let her shout for a minute or two (shout, as opposed to cry IYSWIM, the difference in being cross rather than upset). Now she will go to bed and have a bit of a shout, but will go to sleep, and has more often than not, slept through.

I also have a voice-activated light-show thingy which has been really good.

Foxy - is it the ELC one? I have one of them but have never used it? Maybe I need to try and change her sleep associations. TBH, I am trying to avoid sitting with her for hours while she falls asleep as I have been trying that the last few nights. It seems to have made the problem worse as she is not self-settling at all, rather waking up every half an hour and wondering where I am.

this one

I find its best when the batteries are on their way out - its not so bright or loud.

Maybe I could try her ELC one tonight and see if it helps. I've always been a bit concerned it'll just wake her up even more. Sorry if I sound so defeatist!

Not at all - I was the same. But a bit of perseverence did it. Also, I'd sometimes have DP going in to soothe her. I think they just like to know you are still around.

hi Pink Jenny, thought I'd post here instead of the other thread. This will be an epic explanation of our situation!

We co-slept accidently too from the age of about 4/5 months when DD's sleep was awful and she'd wake frequently and feed frequently. We did this for about 4 months, mostly sleeping with her on the outside with a bed rail then me and DH. We did this comfortably until she started to crawl, (about 9 months I think). At this point I woke more frequently worrying about her falling off the bed than I did because she was waking me so we'd settle her on the bed and when she was asleep transfer her into the cot. When she woke in the night I'd roll out a matress we'd got from a sofa bed and snuggle up with her on that.

After some weeks of this I realised that this was a very uncomfy option so bought DD her own double matress which we made up like a bed on the floor. So from about the age of 12 months she had her own bed. I dismantled the well meaning cot.

We would always lay with her while she went to sleep, leave when she'd gone to sleep and I would just hop in alongside her when she woke in the night. The time that she went to sleep and woke started getting longer and longer and she has just consistently started sleeping through (although has the odd night and still gets up very very early 5.15 today) and in the last two weeks I've been able to put her to bed and leave the room with her falling to sleep on her own.

She has done this all on her own, at her own pace and is happy. I really think it's a maturity thing. I still jump in with her if need be in the night but it's probably been one night in the last week.

In answer to your question on the other thread. I'd go to bed at maybe 9.30-10 ish when cosleeping but I do remember frequently going to bed at 8ish if she wouldn't settle and reading in bed. We'd have nights where we'd be up and down all evening but I know people who don't co-sleep and have the same problem. Personally, I don't think it's the case.

On the whole, the really unsettled nights and those nights when she was awake for one or two hours at a time were mostly teething related. She's just cut her canines and her sleep got so so much better after they arrived. We have also noticed that developmental phases can also cause 'set backs' ie learning to pull up to standing was a nightmare because she almost had a compulsion to stand as soon as we laid her down.

I hope this has helped

i don't think it's the case that waking is related to co-sleeping is what i meant

I agree ginger - as I said, she was still unsettled when she got in with me last night, as she has been the last few nights. Its all coming to a head as she is waking more frequently. I had a bit of a moment last night when I woke up and she had maneouvred herself to the end of the bed. If I hadn't noticed, she'd definitely have fallen off.

I need a solution that doesn't involve CC, its just not for me. I like your tactics though Ginger.

At first I thought the 'shouting it out' approach was a bit of a nonsense and no different to controlled crying, but having done both, there is a difference.

With DS1 I did full-on CC, and it was horrible but it worked. With DD2, I'm just being a bit more instinctive - so I'll listen at the door and just wait and see if she shouts and falls asleep. If she gets upset, I'll go and soothe her.

I still feel guilty for letting DS1 cry himself to sleep!!

There's two things to tackle, getting the baby used to sleeping in her own bed and then teaching her how to fall asleep on her own. And I wish I had a definative answer on how to do it for you - but I don't think there is one! Take your time, use your instincts, and persevere is the best advice I can give

I do agree Foxy that there is a massive difference between crying down or whatever it's called and CC but my DD does both of those things (falling asleep on her own and in her on bed) and I've never had to leave her to cry at all, it's not essential and it's not the only way.

They will get there eventually and it's my belief that if you comfort them when they need it then you'll nurture a child that is happy and confident enough to do it when they're ready.

PJ, I've had plenty of those nights and if she's unsettled when she's in with you then you can bet on teeth or a cold or something, not because she just wants to sleep in your bed. I have nearly torn my hair out stressing about it in the past and gone insane with sleep deprivation but I can't tell you how pleased I am that I stuck to my beliefs and didn't buckle under the pressure of leaving her to cry. I actually miss her these days. There is nothing more gorgeous than waking up to little arms wrapped around you.

Oh ginger will you stop it! Crying at my desk is not appropriate!

There are no definative answers, and how I wish there was!
I totally get what you are saying Gingerninja, and agree it is lovely. If I had MN when I had DS1 I would have probably taken another route. Now I have 4 DCs its just not practical, but if you can do it, then there is nothing like those drowsy snuggles!

Sorry PJ, I could go on though, the feel of their breath on your face. The little stretch in the morning when they shove their belly to the ceiling. The morning cuddles and giggles under the duvet but most of all the feeling of utter contentment and security we all get cuddling up as a family.

In all seriousness, it all gets easier with age. More recently we only had to lay with DD for about 10 mins to get her to sleep and it was a time I really relished, especially if I'd been working as I could get some cuddles in that I'd missed during the day.

Or being headbutted as a wake up call when dd tries to climb on top of me.

The cutest thing is her little smile when she realises I'm awake. Her eyes look exactly like they did when I very first looked into them. <<wipes eyes and decides to cosleep forever>>

foxy, you just need a very very big bed

Weve just invested in a superking for the same reason .

Superking here too.

<< Giggles >>

What do you want LG & T? Away with you.

My DD is 1 today and I put her down in her cot at 7pm every night we no problems but when we got to bed at around 9.30 p.m. no matter how quiet we are she will wake up and cry and there's no consoling her until she comes in with us. Once she's in with us she stops crying instantly but will fidget non stop which stops me from sleeping so it doesn't help me really but at least she's not crying

Mikafan - I feel like I posted that myself!

Its annoying isn't it. You'd think they'd just be grateful that they've wormed their way into your bed and be happy and content, not start fidgeting all night

My sentiments exactly.

I just try and tell myself its not forever and just appreciate it while she does want to sleep next to me. I'm sure once she's happy to stay in her cot I'll miss her.

I'm going to try and remember that tonight when I am sitting on the floor of her room, holding her hand through the bars of the cot, dinner absolutely freezing, while dh plays on his playstation.

PJ, try (just for a night) laying on the bed with her, you may find that it works faster than sitting holding her hand. It's a darn site more comfortable

I'll try. The other night was so funny, she actually started laughing and patting my leg through the bars. She's got the measure of me!

My DD wouldn't let me do that, its out or nothing with her. Have tried in the past the hand holding through the bar but she won't even sit down if I'm in the room, she stands up and tries to lean over the top of the side of the cot to get to me. Once when it was on a lower setting she managed to lever herself over to me (the cot is right next to the bed I have to say)

She's gorgeous though - how can you resist? What experiences have you had with your older dcs?

Well exactly. My two boys were no trouble at all. Both went into their cots with no problems and slept through the night from 3 months (which was when I stopped BF both of them). With DD I am still BF (but not at night) and she's a total nightmare

I second gingerninja. My ds falls asleep much quicker when I am lying with him.

We have ds's cot next to our bed with the cot side removed. Luckily the mattress height is almost the same (cot mattress is maybe an inch lower than our mattress) so it feels like one great big bed. I put ds in his cot and I lie with him and sing to him and stroke his wee fuzzy head till he falls asleep (could be two minutes, could be 30 minutes, it depends). Then when he is asleep I pile the pillows up alongside the cot so he's not going anywhere should he waken (which he does from time to time, but is pacified with dummy).

We are lucky he doesn't waken when we go to bed (around 10.30pm) but we do get lots of sleepy hurrumphs from him as he hears us creeping in!

Good luck!

Not really a successful night to report. Despite only having one nap all day, she went to bed at 7.15, woke at 8.15, 9.18 and 10.05. Put her in bed with me and she (thankfully) slept well.

So, I'm no further forward. Am clinging on to the dim hope that its just the teeth unsettling her evenings.

Sorry to hear that Pinkjenny. My DD went down fine at 7, I heard some whimperings on and off all evening but she didn't cry - until we'd been in bed for 10 minutes and was about to drop off. Nothing I did would soothe her so just chose the line of least resistance and bought her in. She wasn't too bad once she was in bed with me though she got woken up at 5.30 a.m. by DH getting up for work and that was it then - no sleep for me. Yesterday I bought a little soft Eyore cuddly toy and stuck it down my bra all evening then put that in the cot before I went to bed thinking that if she could smell me on it when she woke she might not cry - she did

PJ and MF, it is a phase, just keep thinking that. I honestly couldn't see the wood for the trees for most of the first year and I'd get so frustrated, sometimes really cross but mostly just desperate.

Things are so much better these days. My DD woke at about 3ish and I got into bed with her and she huffed and puffed on and off for a while but I know she's teething. It's exactly the same pattern of behaviour.

Stay strong

PinkJenny, I'm a bit confused, do you want to have LO fall asleep by herself, sleep in her own bed or fall asleep with you and stay asleep but in your bed?

We've quite successfully got DC4 to go to sleep in her own bed using the 'retreating' method, and she will wake up complain for 10 seconds and then drop off again - especially if her music/light comes on.

But if she ups the ante, she's in bed with me has a feed, and stays there. For me, its about having some time without the children in the evening so I can rest up, but I really don't mind them coming in during the night.

Have you tried the Baby Whisperer? Its not something I've used, but its been recommended on here quite a lot. I saw the 'retreating' method on Tiny Tearaways I think, so sort of used my own version.

Thinking about it now, she was on an 11 - 11 sleep pattern before I changed it to 7 - 7. So she'd go to bed when I did and sleep until 11ish the next day (which was brilliant as I could get up and get the kids off to school before attending to DD2). Is this an option? You get your evenings back, but LO is with you. There are real pros to it IMHO, especially as we found DP and I got 1:1 time with her. Just a thought!

Crikey! An essay - sorry!

Hi foxy - she can't fall asleep with me as it would involve either my crawling into her cot or putting her into our bed at the start of the night, and me putting rails all the way around both sides and the bottom of the bed.

Ideally, I'd like her to fall asleep on her own and stay asleep in her own bed all night, or at least stay asleep for the majority of the evening before she comes in with us. Don't want much, do I!

Her going to bed at 11pm isn't an option as I work 4 days a week and she has to be up at 6.45 for nursery or to go her nan's.

I'm always a bit concerned about The Baby Whisperer as I feel like pick up put down just stimulates her and she gets crosser when I put her down.

Where can I find info re retreating?

I'll have a look in one of my (many!) books - just got to do LOs lunch, but I'll come back

Righto - I've got my Dr Tanya's Little Angels book out - basically you do your tea & bath routine, take the baby to her darkened room for last feed. You put her in her cot, without eye contact or saying anything. Keep it boring. Obviously she'll yell at you for having the audacity to put her in her bed, so you pick her up and give her a cuddle. Repeat as necessary. Its up to you if you leave her to yell at you for a few seconds, or pick her up straight away.

This method is about making her feel secure, not abandoned as CC can. So you cuddle her put her down, or sit by her so she can see you. Then you progress to sitting nearby (I 'shushed' so she knew I was close by even if she couldn't see me).

It was around this time that the light-show was helpful, because she'd get distracted by it and forget she wanted my attention. Then I'd wait on the other side of the door, and go in if I thought I needed to.

I have to say, LO never got upset. Yes she shouted, but didn't cry. And I use the little plug-in nightlight from Mothercare which give a very gentle warm glow, so its not pitch black.

That sounds similar to the Millpond clinic gradual retreat method. I suppose I did a similar thing with my DD but it didn't work until she was about 18 months. (I'd tried it on numerous occasions before) I think at 18 months she was just older and understood more fully what was happening.

BTW it's not a quick fix and you may have to step back a few paces at times of teething illness etc which is frustrating. People have also told me that CC is no guarantee either so don't be too concerned if it doesn't work immediately.

Good point GN, perseverence is sooo important.

Good luck tonight, whatever you decide to do Pinkjenny

i definately think consistency is the key, probably to everything actually, which is why I never succeeded with 'techniques'. Thankfully we muddled through doing our own thing. I'm tackling the tantrums with exactly the same approach, ie how shall we handle it today!

Thanks everyone. I'm well into this Parenting by Instinct thing.

Just wanted to say PJ that my dd was exactly the same. It was very frustrating. She'd wake up all evening until I went to bed and pop her into bed with me. I was up and down the stairs about ten times an evening. No chance of a relaxing evening with a film... I

I used to put her in her own cot in her own room in the evening then into bed with me from about 10.30 -11pm. Now (she's 16 months) I just put her to sleep in the middle of my bed at about 7 - 8pm and then join her a bit later!! She thankfully sleeps all evening and is undisturbed when we stumble over her in the dark, re-arrange the duvet and stub toes against the bed in the process.

Your lo will get there. Just repeat the mantra "It's just a phase, it's just a phase"