I am proud that mine doesnt sleep through, would not want to lie about it. Am proud that I can function as a mum on the little sleep that we do get ... ? Makes us "better" ... !!
x

lol @ debating. I had an antenatal 'friend' who insisted smugly that her DD had never been any 'trouble' and slept through from about four weeks, while I was busy struggling on odd snatches of 45 mins sleep here and there. A couple of months back she was telling me about her DS (who is four months) and blithely said, "of course he's quickly settled into the same pattern as DD - asleep by 7pm then THREE FEEDS DURING THE NIGHT".

As if I wouldn't remember?! The lies! The lies! Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

ds is nearly 4 and never sleeps all night, he's up at least once or twice, wanting in our bed and drinks of milk. We just go with it, and hope it will get better as he gets older. dd, 5 sleeps brilliantly which makes it easier to fend off the criticism I think - she's evidence that it is ds and not our crap parenting

Haven't read whole thread BUT thought I would tell you that my DS didn't sleep through until 6 months. EVERYONE around me appeared to have sleeping babies BUT....on closer questioning:

'Does yours sleep through?' (me)
'Yes, has done since she was 3 weeks old' <<smug>> (her)
'God, I am still getting up twice in the night for feeds'(me)
'Oh, I have to get up and put the dummy back in/change bum/shush back to sleep but don't have to feed her' (her)

Since when did that constitute sleeping through?!?!?!?!!!!!!!

Bollocks to the lot of them.

thanksfully my ds now usually (but not always) sleeps through. he's just turned 2 but has only just started sleeping through.

i used to get so fed up with smug mums saying something along the lines of "well yes my ds/dd sleeps from 7 til 7 and they're only 2 days old" (obviously exagerating there a bit). some babies/children sleep well some don't, and i think some parents lie because they think it'll make them look better if they say their dcs sleep well.

according to my own mum ds not sleeping is retribution for when i was little and didn't sleep through until i was about 3.

What about "well you wouldn't know it from looking at you?"

Can sympathise completley as someone whose 4yr old only slept through the week before he was 4 [although is now very consistent] and am still waiting for both DDs [2.4yrs and 1.4yrs] to sleep through!!

correct response?
tricky one.

'It will get better' and 'Poor you' although well meaning, makes me feel pitied which I hate.
Commenets about breasfeeding did my head in.
COmments about having to be tough made me want to punch someone (usually my MIL)

TBh it is tricky. That is why I pretty much stopped offering information and people pretty much stopped asking!

Hi all

My DD slept through from 11pm from 8 weeks then from about 8pm a few months later. I promise I was never smug about it, but at 9 months she started teething and suddenly up 2-4 times a night. Nearly 2 months later and she still isn't sleeping very well. The problem is it's so unpredictable. She might sleep through for 2 nights, then wake up 4 times. She is bfed but isn't waking up hungry (tried feeding her at first but didn't help so don't bother any more).

What does seemed to have mitigated the problem is putting her down awake rather than feeding her to sleep.

Anyway, can I just ask what sort of reaction would you appreciate to your sleep problems?

Me, I tell everyone when I'm not getting any sleep and reap the sympathy . I do appreciate tips from people (everybody has some) though I admit pretty soon it does feel like you have done something wrong. But if one of you spoke to me about your sleep problems what is the best response to give?

You will learn to lie. Lie through your teeth. DS2 is 3 (years not months) and only in the last 2 months has he started doing anything like reasonable sleeping.

He still wakes in the night but it is bareable. Until Christmas, he could wake up to 10 times in the night.

So from a veteran, bare-faced lies is the answer

Or even . Brain clearly not engaged.

Or even . Brain clearly not engaged.12

I got "the look" again last night from some friends over dinner...found myself defending him, saying he'd got a lot better...have been up since 4.30am this morning. [hmm}

Great thread, just wish I could somehow get my MIL to read it without sending it to her! She truly believes that my dd 12months is the only babe that doesn't sleep through the night. Of course all my own fault!!! Ladies.. I wish you all a long and good sleep tonight (me too). nite nite

Great thread! My dd, now 4, didn't sleep through until 13 months, and I got so fed up with people who had angel babies that slept. Fast forward to the toddler years, and all those angel babies were flinging themselves to the floor in screaming tantrums while dd sat quietly colouring wondering what the fuss was about.

So now I've got a ds who doesn't sleep. And when I meet someone whose baby sleeps through and gives me "the look" a little voice in my head says "but I bet they'll be horrid toddlers". Keeps me amused. (Although it is entirely possible that ds will be a monster too....)

My lo didn't sleep either. Woke 1/2 hourly to hourly for the first 6 months. About 2 hourly after that....

In the end I stopped telling people that I was having no sleep. One of my frends who is lovely really but very much a control freak - her lo slept through from the moment he was born. She though I was doing something wrong and kept making suggestions such as early weaning and ff. I didn't though and BF exc for 6 months when I introduced food and then stopped BF at 14 months.

However, she has had another baby recently and she is exactly the same readful sleeper as my lo was. She has taken her own advice though. Introduced ff, puree at 13 weeks and tried cc. However, it has not made one iota of difference.

My poor mate is exhausted - her youngest is now 9 months old and waking about 4-5 times a night. I really don;t think that weaning or ff makes a difference if your baby is 'wired' to be a waker!!!!

I must admit though - I did start co-sleeping and that made loads of difference for me. Instead of the 20 min nap in the day - if I slept with her she would have 2 hour stretches. Also, in the night- if she started waking - I would just give her a little 'shhhh' and a few taps and it would be enough to get her back to sleep. Initially for the first couple of weeks I couldn't sleep well with her next to me but I soon settled into it and now sleep like a log when she's in the bed.

I hated that look though - in the end I kept schtum - and just said she slept well as I didn't feel I would be responsible for any violence I caused if I had any more well-meaning 'advice'.

Just to say - that sleep started to get better on it's own and now at 16 months she generally sleeps all night from 8 - 6.30 (sometimes 7.30 - hooray!) with a 2 hour nap in the day.

I read the Sears sleep book - I wasn't into attachment parenting but I though it was fab and really made me relax about the whole sleep issue.

like i said, i never used to tell poeple that he didnt sleep, i would just kind of gently nod.....People are always ALWAYS dying to tell you their story so are not interested in your answer any way.

Saves "that look" and damned useless suggestions/opinions that every body has because they are all expert at how to get a kid to sleep because they had problems with little Jonny for a few nights when he was 4 weeks old.....blah blah blah blah blah.....

Resist the urge to punch on nose donbean...resist.....

sufi, like i said, the best, tried and tested, response to 'the look' is to be smug! like 'i love my dc so much that i couldn't care less if she woke up a hundred times a night' kind of look, and 'wow look at me, i've been up all night and i'm still positive and smiling'. some comments i've had and some responses have been:

- she's only wrapping you round her little finger you know, she's perfectly capable of sleeping through without you:

me: oh but i LOVE those midnight cuddles, aren;t they just the best?

- she's using you as a dummy at night, she doesnt need to feed at night, its just for comfort

me: but comfort is just as important as anything else- hey maybe do you think THATS why she's the most smiley , sociable baby - because i don't hesitate to comfort her round the clock?

you get the picture.
just act like you're cool about it, and people actually get rather envious (because i bet their own lo's are giving them a hard time too!, but they wiuldn;t dare be honest about it)

No, the whole 'ff babies sleep longer' thing is nonsense - I tried, it didn't work. And we tried the dream feed too, and that didn't work either!

Ignore what I said about that "dream feed", it worked that one night ... 1!

She woke at midnight, 1am, 330am and refused to go back to sleep after 430am this morning .. !

I think that it seriously becomes dangerous to drive the car the following day, I feel like I cant function but the car is the only thing that will sometimes calm her down and give me some "me" space with the radio on etc etc, its quite nice!

She is 3.5 months - maybe its teething?

Also, I switched in last week from b/feeding to mainly formula (EVERYONE promised me that I would get more sleep) doesnt happen, its sad really.

x

Hello ladies - just come back to this thread and it's so lovely to find I'm not the only one (though less lovely for all of us suffering sleep deprivation... )

I really do think people fib about the whole sleep thing, and if they DO have babies who sleep, then I wish people could try and be a bit more sympathetic. It's not like they don't know how it feels - all they need to do is cast their minds back to those early newborn weeks, times that by six months and then think about how sodding awful it is!!

Caz - have been working on and off since DS was born (I'm a freelance writer, and am now back 2 days a week). Believe me, if you're tired, you're tired - working doesn't make it any easier or, strangely, any harder. Getting up is a killer but once I'm up, I'm fine. And, as I love my work, it's one of the things that has kept me sane in my darkest days. Oh, and a single cup of coffee to kick-start my morning doesn't seem to bother my bf DS (really - I've tested it out!!).

Donbean - when I make up the 'sleep deprived and proud' tees, you'll be first on the list to get one! Well done, you are amazing. I do know what you mean about thinking 'never again' - I really don't know yet if I could do this again... and not surprising you ended up with PND - I felt myself going that way a few times (suffered from depression for 15+ years, so I know what it looks like) but then DS would give me a night or two where he was OK-ish and I'd be able to get back on track.

And for all those whose LOs' sleep went bonkers at around 3-4 month, I think it's quite common. DS1 slept 11-4am until about 10wks and after that (and a cold, vaccinations, and a growth spurt) it all went tits up and I stopped being smug and started trawling the sleep boards, bleary-eyed, looking for solutions.

Now, whisper it, DS1 woke ONCE last night. Oh. My. God. Of course, he'll never do it again, but for one glorious night I actually stayed in my own bed (as DH did the 3am feed). At least I have that memory to keep me going through the next 16 years...

All I need to find now is a riposte to The Look (a snarl? A grimace? A steely-eyed stare?)...

Hope you all get some sleep soooon
xx

God,
This is making me want to cry with gratitude. Someone else understands! My DD is one next week and has never slept through the night yet. I'm back at work, struggling to cope and thought I might fall asleep at the wheel this morning on my way in. (We were up three times and then up from 3am til 4.40am.) HV is worse than useless and it's just comforting to know there are other women out there pacing the floor and applying liberal amounts of Clinique every morning.

P.S. donbean I could have written your post (apart from the birth weight - DD was 9lb6oz)... colic - tick, teething - tick, croup - tick, back to work - tick, PND - tick, antidepressants - tick.

DD is now three though and it is, as you say, as though it all happened to someone else.

Sorry I haven't read the whole thread in detail, but I so wish I had found a thread like this when my DD was small. I SO EMPATHISE WITH YOU! DD didn't sleep for more than 1hr 20 mins at a stretch until she was about six months, and then slept through once - blissfully - the night before I went back to work. Also my DH is disabled, which meant I did the nights myself.

I ended up at the Health Clinic in tears through exhaustion and despair, but even their 'sleep specialist' over a period of months couldn't help.

FWIW I breastfed too - but I knew so many women who did and had sleepy babies that I'm sure that wasn't the reason. But if I had a penny for every person (including my Mum)who kept telling me to switch to formula... (she even turned up with bottles and powder one day when she'd come down to visit! ) No - what would have been helpful, Mum, is volunteering to take the baby for a night so I could sleep!

This thread brings it all back so clearly to me.

Can I just say that DD eventually got her sleep sorted and now sleeps beautifully. Life became much much more manageable thereafter!

(By the way, I have to say I had a bit of a chuckle when an antenatal friend of mine, who had been very sniffy about my DD not sleeping "well, of course you should try Harvey Karp..." or "you should be shushing and patting" or "you should wean her" etc etc had a second baby WHO DIDN'T SLEEP . Sorry - I'm a bad person, I know - but it just showed she didn't have some miraculous gift with her first baby - it's just random!)

Bloody hell donbean, I posted that before I saw yours. Don't hunt me down, please.

if they are fucking lying i shall hunt each and every one of them down......

Dd is nearly one. Has slept through about four times.

When people ask me if she sleeps through, I say yes. Nosy bastards.

my boy was 5 lbs at birth and i breast fed him. He was starving and so fed hourly for weeks,,,,then got colic, so would scream his tree off in between sleeping for 20mins at a time.
then his teeth started, then injections were given then colds/coughs started...then worse of all he got croup and wheezed and barked and silently screamed for hours on end, then because his breathing was so awful i slept on his bedroom floor awake all night too terrified to sleep in case his whole airway closed up.

When he was 7 months old i went back to work.
My job means that i have to offer myself completely. i must concentrate totaly 100%. I didnt know what day it was, i had postit notes all over the place, telling me the day and what i had to do that day.
i couldnt trust myself to drive because i was unsafe.
post natal depression took hold...due to chronic fatigue i think, and i got ads and within 6 weeks felt better.
My son was 3 by this time.

Ive just ben up and looked at his, wont hear another murmour from him now til 7am tomorow. he went to bed at 7.30.

while i write all of this, it feels like it happened to some one else. he is nearly 5 now and i feel back to me, back to normal.
I really want another baby, im told by every one that i wont have 2 the same......wish me luck xxxx

i consider myself lucky with ds2, cos he does seem to sleep quite well - is bf and will fall asleep somewhere between 8 & 10, sleeps downstairs until i go up to bed (12ish) when he'll dream-feed or wake for a feed, then sleep til 5/6ish. BUT i honestly don't know if he wakes or a feed during the night or not. i co-sleeep, and don't let it register if he wakes for a feed. ds1 otoh was dreadful, and i found co-sleeping and letting him latch on whenever was the only way to get any sleep! dd wasn't too bad,but i did end up pacing the streets at 3am with her in the sling and the dog for company once. i'd exhausted my repertoire of nursery rhymes, and there's only so much pacing the floor anyone can stand! (think it was teeth, but cant remember tbh). my mother was very at co-sleeping, but it worked for me!

I remember being at a bus stop and some old hag stopping me to look in the pram.

I should have ran off there and then....

She said I looked tired. I told her my son only slept in 40 minute periods the night before was a gernally bad sleeper anyway and she said.....

"well, I had eight children and I never had a bad night with any of them"

Lying, bitchy, evil witch. Why say that to someone who is so obivously struggling?

I am sorry to say that some people only feel good about themselves when upsetting or being cruel to others

PS I ff - although on demand - from 3 weeks so it certainly ain't nothing to do with bf milk...

At around a year, everyone (including our friend who does genuinely have supersleepingbaby) admitted their babies wake quite a lot really. Even those with babies who do actually sleep 'through' (which sometimes means 11-5am ) will admit 'well, not when they are teething/unsettled/ill/growing/bla bla bla'

IMO the reason people are obsessed is because everyone actually wants to hear that they aren't the only one... My standard response was/is 'oh yes, she sleeps happily - she wakes up a few times of course...'. I do get the look again now at 2years but as far as I am concerned, my dd is pretty much perfect in every way so if she wakes occasionally every bloody night then that must be what she is supposed to do right now. <blind denial emoticon>

Agree it should be a badge of honour like with trainee doctors (read that somewhere...)

I did a Gina Ford style type dream feed last night, basically picked her up asleep at 1030pm and fed her, really cant believe that she stayed asleep!!

Whilst I dont subscribe to a Gina Ford approach, and whilst I am not on any routine (I wish!!) it seemed to help me, she woke at 4 and then 6 - for me thats really good. Will try it again tonight but scared of waking her up!!

x

PS) I think its ridiculous that anyone can even suggest that a non sleeping baby is someones "fault". I like to think that I am just too exciting for my little one to be without me for too long .. !

PPS) I should feel great with sleep until 4am but unfortunately I had a few glasses of wine too many - self inflicted tiredness I know!

gyp5y, glad to hear your lo grew out of being held all day. My DD is a frequent feeder, bad sleeper, day nap avoider, and likes to be carried about most of the time. In other words she does not conform to the 4 hour routine that I keep being told she should be doing. I'm sick of 'the look', we manage (it is exhausting though). I'm hoping she will grow out of it but the look does nothing to help anyone!

Great thread! I hate 'the look' too! I get it alot, most of the other mums officially or unofficially do Gina Ford. Then HV gave it to me last week at dd's 9 mth check coz she wakes 1-4 xs (she tends to sleep for 6+hrs b4 waking though, I couldn't go 12 hrs without food, don't know why babies with little stomachs are expected to!). AND...she told me it was coz I bf her at night and dd is old enough to "manipulate me for a nice cosy feed"! Surely she only has a 'sleep problem' if her sleeping is a problem to me and DP?! Ppl said same bout her demand feeding every 1-2 hrs at 5mths and always wanting to be held. I ignored their 'helpfull hints' and she grew out of both in her own time.

This is a great thread. DS now 4 months used to sleep 7-3 then again until 6am. Now he wakes at 9.30, 12.30, 3.00 and 5.00. Once again, it is put down to bf. I've started another thread about how babies are fed and how well they sleep- just curious to see if there's anything in it. When given the odd bottle of formula, it doesn't make a bit of difference to DS's sleeping!!

Your not alone out there, as you can tell from all the replys.
There are many of us who are honest about this and so so many who tell little 'fibs' as they have been told by others (HV, Friends,our own parents/inlaws, books) that babies should be sleeping through from a certain age so fell pressured to say that they do, but from my experience many babies dont sleep through for quite a long time.
DS and DD1 slept through until 7am at around one. DD2 has only gone through untill 6.45am once (this week) and untill 3 months ago was still waking up around 3am, she's 22 months. It does get me down but i know it wont last forever- or so i hope!!!

That sounds very harsh on my mum she means well.
Herecomes, my mum does the "ooooh I wonder WHY" thing. As though i can pinpoint it to a specific event or non-event.

Oh it's definitely because you're breastfeeding, everything is.
But I'll check with my mum, she's bound to have read an article in the paper that will solve all your problems.

my mum does the whole "so what did he do last night, and what did you do, and what do you think...oh dear....hmmm...oh dear" which basically translates as "you are doing something deeply wrong sort it out!"

Neither of mine have slept well. Ds1 was bad but eventually slept thru sometimes from 18m (and maybe half the time now at 3) but DS2 has surpassed him and at 10m currently wakes every 30mins all evening then every hour or three at night and is often up for an hour or two.

I cant seem to stop myself telling people as Im obsesed with how little sleep I get!!!and yet I never ever get any bloody sympathy just 'the look!'.

Im back at work and yes it does rob you of a bit of extra sleep but come the weekend I get at least an hours lie in each day as i do all the nights as BFing (altho DH deals with DS1).

It will end.

Oh, and Donbean I felt physically ill reading your post. You are a true heroine.

My MIL says straight up to me, 'oh thats your fault if she doesnt sleep. Mine always slept through.'

bitch.

And apparently hers never had a nappy rash either. Oh, and why dont I keep ice cream in the freezer, hers were reared on it.
Etc.

But she babysits!

My 3 and a bit month old goes down about 730pm (now!) but has started waking at 1am, 3am and 5am and then decides that 5am is up time

I find that exhausting and was kind of hoping it would get better!!

She used to sleep 8pm until 4am, and then up at 730am - that was perfect ... !!

My friends babies (same ages) all seem to sleep 7-7 - but never mind!

Just wish I didnt eat all the chocolate to compensate ... !

you are right, people must lie!!

thanks for the answers re work...it's very scary as I will be losing 2 of my main "sleep periods" - currently i go to bed 9pm-ish and get to sleep till she wakes at about 11/12, but when i'm back i'll have work to do at home in the evenings. then in the morning if dh is here he takes her when she wakes at 5/6ish, or sometimes i can get her to go back down for an hour or so, but when i'm back i'll need to get up then. so anywhere between 3-5hrs less sleep...

Love this thread! IMO other people FIB! I can tell you about my 2 extreme nights

DD1 - 1 week afetr i went back to work she developed a cough and woke up at 11pm. Went back to sleep at 6am. i had to get up at 6.15 for work. (Yes I went in.!)

DD2 - began teething one night. Woke up 11.30pm and fell asleep at 7am. She cried ALL night. DH had to go to dd1's nativity play without me as DD2 had only just gone to sleep!

I know these are extremes but I seem to have the opposite problem at the moment. DD2 is teething so much that we can't get her to go to sleep. It sometimes takes up to 3 hours. Once asleep she generally stays asleep. Reaction from friends in RL? "Gosh- really?"<wide eyed etc>

Gets me so cross that if your baby doesnt sleep the givers of the look insinuate it is something you are doing wrong. IME there is no way to MAKE a sleepless child drop off and believe me Ive tried most of the tricks.

DH and I even went to our GP because we thought something was wrong with dd. There were nights she just did not sleep at all. Waking up wasnt a problem she just wouldnt sleep in the first place. The GP just shrugged and said thats just how some babies are.

One mum was very smug because her dd slept very well. Couldnt help feeling pleased when her next baby was a non sleeper and she realised it was not that she was a "good" mother but sleep is usually dictated by the baby itself.

Oooh I love this thread, just wish I could meet come mums like you lot in RL! DD 7 months old is so erratic in sleep, never know what we're going to get. Seems I'm the only one in my AN group with a non-sleeping baby. DH and I have just invested in a super-king bed with lovely mattress. It's so comfy and luxurious it compensates slightly for the fact that I don't get to sleep for particularly long periods in it. We are trying to pretend to ourselves that we bought it cos we needed a new bed, not just because it's the only way we can get some sleep with dd most nights! I've barely told anyone that she comes in with us because I can do without The Look!

You're not alone!!!!!! I'll think of you next time DS1 comes in at 1.30 after I've just DS2 back off to sleep so I have to boot hubby out of bed.
Sometimes feeels like you are the only person awake in the whole world.

you know what i do- before people can give me the 'look', i enthusiastically, and smugly (albeit in pretence), pipe up that 'dd2 is sitll breastfeeding at 15 months and wakes up ATLEAST 3 times for a breastfeed', and pretend to look thrilled about it.

people then think 'wow', rather than 'oh dear', not quite sure why !

I certainly know one mum in RL who has denied that her child ever had any sleep problems. Even though when ours were both babies we compared detailed notes on our experiences. I think mental airbrushing of the past is rife.

Caz, I'm back at work though only 3 days a week and have been since DS was 10 months and waking 5-8 times a night, and was still bf when he woke. I coped by co-sleeping. Hope you find a way.

caz10, I was back at pt work when both dcs were around 11 months. I work reduced hours but go in Mon-Fri.

Neither were sleeping through at that point. Far from it.

How do you feel now during the day?

Waking up is the worse, but you get a routine going and you should not feel any worse than you feel now during the day. In fact, I found working much less taxing than looking after babies. Could have a nice cup of tea, toilet in silence and peace and quiet to think. Even the commute was a breath of fresh air because I could read a paper.

You might think that you can't do the morning starts, but then all it means is that your day shifts forward. So if you used to sleep at 11pm, that will become 10pm.

My coping strateges are co-sleeping (can't be precious about that) because your littles might sleep better and if not, you get up less. Also, extended the cuddle time and so I did not feel I lost out on time with them. Plus dcs are emotionally very very close to me and it helped with the transition to ft childcare.

You also have to be very organised to be on top of housework, admin and the like. Make sure your dp (if you have one) is equally on board. Lots of threads on this.

I have to say that when I got to know some of the women at my clinic and toddler groups better they all started to admit that their child had sleeping problems too - it seems that to admit your child is not a good sleeper is a reflection on your parenting which is a load of rubbish!

People do lie I'm afraid!

oh i'm so glad it is not just me!!

can i ask if any of you are going/have gone back to work? i can cope with this at the moment but work (FT) is only 6weeks away and I am terrified. leaving dd will be bad enough, but the thought of trying to cope on this level of sleep has reduced me to tears on more than one occasion already.

Awww, thanks ladies, I know, time is a healer! I agree with an early poster though - how come you never meet other mums like this in RL? All the ones I meet seem to have it sussed - or are they just better actors than me - and me a drama teacher too!!!

Hi minicooper, my DD (6mo) is very much like this too. Lots of night waking and 3x30 min naps during the day. She is very alert and gets bored easily so I find it tough to keep going all day with not much sleep. I'd love to have another lo one day, but the thought of 2 like this terrifies me! I remember meeting one of my ANC Mums on the last injection day and she said "it just gets easier and easier doesn't it?" I just smiled and said nothing

mini-cooper, you heard this before, but I will say it again ... it WILL get better even if you don't do anything about it. 5 months is still little. Not all babies follow the longer and longer stretches of sleep pattern as they get older. There will be set-backs like teething or milestones which disrupt sleep. And when they get older, they realise they can climb out of their bed ... or start to get nightmares ...

No-one, certainly not an 8-weeker mother, should count her chickens.

And once your dd starts sleeping though, you will forget everything and your thoughts start to drift to no.2. I only felt able to even contemplate a second child after dd was 18 months, hth. Lots of time.

I've mostly come to terms with DS's terrible sleep, but I did have a wobble when my friend told me her 12 week old was now only waking once a night.

DS is 2.2 and still wakes at least twice, more if I don't get into bed with him and co-sleep. Used to be 8 times a night, no matter what I did. He slept through once.

I put off TTC #2 because I didn't think I could cope. Still haven't managed to conceive again.

Who mentioned holding onto the kitchen work surfaces, dizzy and sick? Been there. I used to haunt the 'sleep' section of these boards under my old posting names - tried everything up to and including a week of CC. Now DS can talk he can let me know that he has tummy ache, or that his teeth hurt and that he'd like some Calpol. He generally seems to be right, as once the problem he's identified is dealt with, he sleeps better for the rest of the night.

Oh, so glad to read this thread! I came home in tears yesterday after visiting a friend whose 8 week old is sleeping through already My 5 month old dd was awake 4 times last night - not hopeless, I know, but v hard when my freind was saying - 'well, it was hard at first, but I think I'm there now...' I'm still at the point of thinking I may never have a second as I'm just not sure I can do this again - dd only cat naps during the day - 3x 30mins at most and has just grown out of waking up every 40mins at night!!! I never wanted an only child, but how do people do this again???? And so hard when my friend is saying - 'oh, so you STILL feel like that? I've got past that now....' Grrrr.

Sufi, there was a time at around 4 months when both my children slept through - it all went pear shaped again at around 5-6 months. Your newsagent shouldn't rest on his laurels.

I had many years of disturbed sleep before both DS and DD slept through the night. DD woke EVERY night until she was 16 months old - she only slept through when I stopped breastfeeding, and DS would wake most nights up until he was 3 - for no apparent reason. A few years on and I can't get them up in the morning to go to school now - how things change. It will get better, it just may take time, patience, and good makeup (to disguise those bags under your eyes).

Wait till she is nearly six and still coming into your bed most nights.
It is our family's deepest secret.

Nightmare isnt it. My baby didnt sleep through until 3 days before her first birthday.

But what goes around comes around. The angelic sleeper at 8 weeks in my AN group is now not going down for naps, much to her mothers total consternation having not ever had to stand bent over a cot for 40 minutes going shhh, shhhh, and two others wake at 5am.

I often give dd a bottle of milk if she wakes in the night as it is effective, and I figure we dont go without a drink for 11 hours - I always take something up to bed, and am only there for 8.

You should see "The Look" for confessing to giving a 15 month old not only milk, but From A Bottle in the night.

I have a particularly fine eyebrow raise in response.

Can't believe no-one has suggested you try GF....

With 2 non-sleepers, I don't bother to tell people about their sleep issues. If they ask, I explain and they are surprised that it is so bad and I never mentioned anything before. I shrug - it does not bother me. I have developed coping strategies and I am used to it. Sleep is overrated IMO.

I'm glad to hear there are other non sleeping dc's out there. My dd is 4 months and feel I'm at my wits end with her constant wakefulness. She will scream till she is bright red until she gets what she wants, usually a bf. It is so tough. I broke down in front of my dh yesterday as I really don't know how much more I can take. How do you guys cope? I have a dt of 2.5 yrs to look after, it is so hard!!

Ignore it, my ds2 is 15 months and doesn't sleep through. All babies are different, they aren't better because their babies sleep through.

Donbean you must be some sort of saint. I have to admit, even in these early months, I've been thinking 'never again'...

You are all so bloody fab. You see, we should be wearing our sleeplessness like badges of honour because it's bloody hard work and despite feeling like utter crap most days we still love our dc and think they're the best babies ever. (I never think that at 4am, BTW, but every morning he gives me a big gummy smile and I think, yes, you know, you're bloody fabulous you are. All those passive, sleepy babies just aren't a patch on my alert, clever, sociable and hilarious little lad).

Good luck everyone tonight, here's hoping that we'll all have sweet dreams sometime soon. Or at least before we start drawing our pensions.

xxx

Oh Donbean!

I have to say, when people ask me how ds2 (4mths) is sleeping, I tell them he is doing great. He is. Currently waking around 10, 3, 5 and 7. Bloody fantastic actually. Wasn't expecting that for another year! But I imagine that people interpret "doing great" as "sleeping 7-7".

And they no longer think to ask about dd (6) and ds1 (3). They assume that my older children sleep through. Do they heck. They don't even have the decency to all wake at the same time, they take it in turns all flipping night.

Oh, and dd was bf and ds1 was ff. No difference in their sleep at all. Just that dh did some of the bottlefeeds.

I am sooo looking forward to when they are teenagers and I turf them out of their beds in the morning .

i was a walking corps.
went to morrisons with my slippers on at least twice a week.
put my nappy bag in the fridge and my shopping in the hallway.
i used to stand with tears streaming down my face by 4pm every day while making dinner feeling dizzy having to hold onto the work surface feeling sick with such exhaustion that it was embeded in my bones.
i didnt eve have th energy to talk some days.
i would cry when making the beds in the morning because i knew i would not get back into that bed til that night and for no longer than an hour. i would be up.

hv suggested i make a "sleep diary", for the first 3 nights i was up 17 times, stopped diary after that as i wnted to drive off a cliff.

Then ds got to be 4 years old and would wake maybe 5/6 times a night.
then he started school and he sleeps through about 5 out of 7 nights a week.

I would love another child but i just simply cannot go through that again. dont think my body can do it.

people....i stopped saying how much sleep i wansnt getting. i jsut smiled and noddedd. no one cared, no one could help, nothing i did worked.
i just had to ride the storm.
twas pure torture.

i know exactly and precisely and minutely what you are saying and i feel your pain.
the end

Today I got the look in stereo from 2 mums proud their babies sleep through, shocked ds wakes every 2 hours or less. SO glad I'm not the only one!

Ignore them, people are selective with what they tell you. My DD has just had 2 weeks of sleeping through and she's 19 months. I've ignored pressure to do cc so she's never cried herself to sleep and goes to sleep well and happy. Your DS will get there in his own time.

I had a friend whose DD slept through from about 8 weeks but at a year things turned upside down. She was the one going and smirking on the other side of her face.

Sleeplessness makes you totally hardcore. (If you're looking for tips to survive I'd recommend co-sleeping if you're not already, totally saved my sanity)

LOL at "sleep loss of more than 30 minutes each night can begin to affect daytime functioning", Babyisaac...amazed I can get dressed in the morning if that's the case, as I reckon I'm about 4 hours short a night.

They can all piss off with their looks. It's got nothing to do with what they have or haven't done - dd didn't sleep, we read books, changed routines, even spoke to a sleep consultant. Eventually she just stopped waking up when she was about 13 months old, but I'm pretty sure it was nothing we did. We thought we were sleep experts when ds was born - did everything we could have done to ensure he slept, apart from leaving him to cry (regular naps, bedtime routine, blah blah blah) and did he sleep? Of course not...he still, at 11 months, wakes several times a night AND starts the day at 5.30am.

All you can do is ignore them and hope that their next one doesn't sleep. That should shut them up.

Nod, smile and lie through your teeth, Sufi - couldn't arsed with all the advice, so used to breezily say, "oh yes, she's fine". And she did get better, if that's any comfort. Her sleep went bonkers when she stopped bf-ing to sleep (her idea, not mine), contrary to all the bloody advice.

Me and DH just read that report summary and laughed out loud at the bit that says:

"sleep loss of more than 30 minutes each night can begin to affect daytime functioning, particularly in those parents who return to work"

- if only it was just 30 mins sleep we were losing!!

But nice to know that it's not the bf that's the problem...

DD is 16 months and has slept from 8 till 5 for a grand total of 3 nights. About 2 months ago she was waking several times an hour. I get the look for that, the look (and a lot more besides) for 'still' breastfeeding. Sod the lot of them, that's what I say. What the obsession is with other people's children's sleeping/feeding I have no idea.

right that it. will show ds that report in the morning!!

I get the look too, my DD doesn't sleep through at 6mo, wakes several times with no particular pattern. I've ff - no difference. Why is it that everyone always asks 'is she sleeping through the night?' I think they just love doing the look, thats why they ask! Then proceed to tell you how everyone elses babes sleep so well, she's got you wrapped round her finger, let her cry it out, RFYOB, etc. My favourite one is my friend who says she just refuses to feed her baby between 12 and 6 !! How can I refuse to feed a screaming hungry baby? The fact is I have a baby who doesn't sleep well at night, and gets peckish when she wakes up (bit like her mother really), and thats my problem not theirs. Yes, so tell them to p off.

Mehdismummy

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my sil told me if i gave him one good bottle before he went to bed he would
sleep through the night! yeah and stars will fly from my arse too!

and caz, I also give DS a bottle of ff in the night (mainly so I can get some kip - got fed up with spending what little time I had during the day expressing), I even bought that hungry baby stuff cos my mum was convinced my milk wasn't good enough quality.

DH fed him the first night.

We waited...

And unfortunately we didn't wait very long, cos he woke up 2 hours later, as usual!

pmsl at bf babies sleep longer!!

ah yes, I forgot, there are a multitude of looks:

'so, you let him sleep in YOUR bed, did you? Well, you've only got yourself to blame then...'
'you're still bf-ing - poor thing's probably hungry'
'what, you don't just leave him to cry?'
'poor woman, that baby's got the better of her - what on earth is she going to be like once he's a toddler??'

Saw a neighbour this morning who i SWEAR waits til I've had a bad night/have walked up and down the road 50 times trying to get DS to take his nap before coming out and asking, 'so, he's still not sleeping then?' of course, her PFB slept thru from 12 wks...

Babyisaac, know exactly what you mean: where are you non sleeping mums in the real world?!

I might get a t.shirt made up: 'sleepless and proud'...

Caz10 - my DS gets a bottle of formula occasionally and it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to his waking. Can't see how it would change anything. But yes, I also interpret this look to do with bf. I'm sure there's a report to state that bf babies get on average more sleep than ff babies but I haven't found much proof of that yet!

I had this loads of times with DS2 (lucky he was my 2nd otherwise I would have really taken it personally.)

He is 15mths, had terrible reflux and then terrible ear infections. He was operated on 3 weeks ago and has been sleeping through the night ever since.

Nothing to do with parenting. I knew there was something not right when he woke screaming his head off but got endless comments on how he was "playing me".

Even my mum (who had the sense to keep her mouth shut) used to leave "pregnant pauses" when the subject came up.

I stopped answering about this question, especially as you say, when you are bf it has to do with that and nothing else.

Proof that it's not - DS2 is still bf, I stopped bf DS1 at a year and he did not start sleeping through then either - only did when he got a dummy.

Caz10 you're not paranoid, they actually told me that to my face. I pointed out that when DD was 8 months old that we went away on holiday for 3 nights without her and she was completely formula fed by her Granny (I pumped to keep up the supply) and she still didn't sleep. But then I get the disbelieving look again.

i always interpret The Look to say "she'd sleep if you didn't breastfeed" - but maybe i am just a bit paranoid/defensive!

happy birthday tegan dc. now all togethet say it loud and say it proud FECK EM

Oh I hate that "look". When you tell someone that active birthing didn't work, you get "the look". When you tell someone that your DB doesn't sleep, you get "the look" (my DD didn't go through the night until she was a year, and that was after months of CC). Women who struggle to breastfeed get the same thing.

I get annoyed when I tell people that DS (9 months) has never slept and they say -

' oh my DS/DD sleeps 7 to 7 and has done since they were born'

AAAAAHHHHHHH.

Get some Phenerghans...

listen here - i used to work for the social services and would advise parents on tactics and schemes to use in the back of my mind (pre children) i would think its parenting not neccesarily poor parenting you understand........i had 2 dcs they were fab sleepers and i truly thought i had it sussed ......unexpected ds3 arrived and honest to god no word of lie for 3 years he slept 3 hours in 24 NO-ONE is at fault with a child that doesnt sleep any looks you get are from people who know no better if you have good sleeper thank your lucky stars cos it can just as well be a poor sleeper next and believe me you have my sympathy x

My DD USED to sleep through and now at 18mos very rarely does!! They might soon regret being so smug!!

Sufi, I know EXACTLY what you mean!!! My DS has just turned 4 mo and weeks every 3 hours to bf. Other mums at postnatal groups etc complain when their lo wakes up once in the night at around 3am - if only! Fake sympathetic looks do my head in! I've actually cut one of my so-called friends out of my life as she is starting to make me feel as though I'm doing something wrong.

I know there are others out there - MN is proof. However, I never ever meet anyone in the flesh like you lot - I wish I could, it would make me feel so much better

my dd2 is 4 today and has only starting sleeping through over the past 3 weeks.
from the day she was born until she was 2 she never had 1 wink of sleep, at 2 my gp and hv perscribed a sedative to try to get her into a routine however she was only recommended to have 25ml max but it actually took closer to 185ml to get her to have 2 hours sleep and this dosage is 10ml more than she would of needed to be sedated for an operation.

All i can say is it will get better at some point. try suggesting to youre dh that you could do with 1 night away and let him deal with it for 1 night, it will do you the world of good.

cheers ladies for the moral support!

DS has never been a good sleeper, sadly, his sleeping went bonkers at 10wks and never recovered... we had a few wks when he started to self-settle (after 6 wks on the ncss) but teething put paid to that... it's lucky he's cute

Oh, and remember that 4 1/2 to 5 months is when many previously good sleepers decide to turn the tables on their mummies and become very bad ones! I thought at 4 months that we were nearly there. At 5 months I realised we were some way away. DD is 10 months this week and she sleeps much worse than she did as a newborn. There's definitely no room for complacency when it comes to children's sleep patterns.

You need to come to my playgroup. All kinds of sleep deprived skeletons came out of the cupboard last week - I felt right at home! I had previously thought that I and the mothers of the 4 month old babies were the only ones who were suffering - I was soooooo wrong! Give it time - you'll find that this is something that many women don't admit to until they're comfortable with their audience. Probably because of The Look (and yes, I do know the one you mean!)

My son is nearly 5 and still doesnt sleep through (sorry!)

Tell them to feck off.

My son didn't sleep through the night until the age of 2 a