DD is 10mo and still waking every half an hour in the evening, sometimes more, and will only be settled by bfing. Sometimes she gets frustrated because she's too full to eat but still wants the comfort. It's time to sleep train her as she so wants to sleep for longer but just doesn't know how. 12 till 6 is better as we co-sleep.

We've been thinking about doing a Jay Gordon style thing where you sit with them while they get to sleep (crying, inevitably.) This is supposedly the AP type of sleep training - even Dr Sears is OK with the dad comforting them to sleep through tears. My thing is, isn't it worse to sit there and ignore their tears, whereas a "light" version of controlled crying - where you go in every 30 secs up to a couple of mins, shows them you are responding to them rather than just sitting their ignoring them?

The argument about sitting with them is they feel angry and frustrated but they do not feel scared and abandoned, which makes sense, but they still feel ignored, plus you're there as a distraction. I'm thinking out loud really but just wondered what people thought before we take the plunge (don't want to but have tried all the no-cry techniques and we've got nowhere.)

ok first of all I just want to say its very normal to still be bfding to sleep at this age. I am also assuming you've tried elizabeth pantley?

Ok, in this situation here is what I would do

Establish a routine centring around her NAP, not her bedtime. Naps are less stressful. I think a lot of kids have problems slightly later because they have associated bedtime with grumpy parents wanting them to go to sleep. I know I have. My way round this was for them to learn to get themselves to sleep at nap time.

you need a routine-bath (2 baths a day is ok!), story, bed or whatever. do it for daytime naps and when that is established, do it at night too.

My ds2 was the same at that age, he's much better now he's 14 months but still wakes during the night to bf. I really would just carry on bf him, he will grow out of it. I also co-sleep.

I'm ap and would not do cc, even going in every 30 secs.

we did it with DS (although he was much older). I (dressed in many layers) would just cuddle and hold him first. Being denied something that you love and comforts you (ie the boob) would be a big shock to a baby. hold her comfort her and tell her that you love her. SHE WILL CRY. ANd don't forget that this isn't a quick fix. do it in stages. for a few nights hold her to sleep. then lay with her...etc etc.

have you tried going to sleep with her in the early part of the night, then after a couple hrs of sleep yourself, getting up and doing some grown up things then returning to bed around midnight?

As I remember it, Dr Jay Gordon's recommendation is not to sit up with them but to actually be in the family bed with them, holding/cuddling/patting/rocking whatever except feeding feeding them. I also remember that he doesn't recommend it for below 12 months but I understand your desperation.

At ten months, dd was waking like this in the early part of the night and bf all night long too. I think it is normal normal behaviour of very intelligent and sensitive babies.

I think I'd just carry on but it's difficult when you also have adult relationships and a household to maintain. Also, I'm worried she WON"T grow out of it and that once she's walking it will be even harder. Also, I don't really want her out of our bed yet but not sure how to do this without.

Kiskidee - have tried lying with her but she still wakes every 30 mins - hangover from cluster feeding as a younger baby. When did your DD stop doing this?

The other thing is I want to try for another before too long but not yet fertile because so much bfing... I know that's having cake and eating it but haven't got all the time in the world...

Will talk to DP again - think maybe a purer Jay Gordon approach for us.

She will grow out of it at some point. Ds2 was walking at 9 months. I also have dd (6) and ds1 (4.6) and do all the household stuff too.

I have a dh also. Personally I feel it's such a short amount of time relatively that they are young for and we should allow them their comforts/needs.

10 months is still v young imo. My periods returned even when feeding ds2 4-5 times a night and at least 10 times a day at about 10-11 months. He now feeds 2-3 times a night and about 6 or so times a day. He eats good meals too and snacks.

I've just accepted that this is the way it will be for a short time and got on with it. I'll miss the night feeds and day feeds when they're gone so am making the most of them. They grow up far too quickly imo.

Seemed like only yesterday I brought dd home from scbu and now she's 6.

If she settles when breastfed, I would continue doing that. She can't overfeed and if she comfort sucks what is wrong with that. She could be having a growth spurt in which case a few days extra nursing sessions might see her sleeping better.

We have had ups and downs with our DD's sleeping patterns but I have always nursed her and put her back to sleep again and 99 times out of 100, she'll go straight back to sleep. I couldn't stand to listen to her cry when I know I could stop it so quickly and easily.

I weighed up my DD's and my distress at her crying versus a few minutes feeding, for me it wasn't worth it but YMMV.

you can try staying in bed with her till she starts to wake up and as she is becoming active but still asleep, pat her down. it may or may not work. over a few nights, she will probably stop waking up. I would try patting back to a deeper sleep and with the next waking, feed her then try to pat back on the third waking. If at anypoint they seem to be waking up more than falling back, just feed back to sleep.

i agree that this time in a baby's life is so short and fleeting. It won't be long she will want to be in her own room. Promise. Enjoy the time you can.

Re: grown up time. Parents make all sorts of similar sacrifices in order to look after their children in the early days. Later on, when the children are older, difficult times like these are what hold couples together. For example, some couples, work shift patterns so that one partner is at home to do childcare while the other is at work and then swap shifts. This type of accomodation may come out of necessity but in the big picture, we make choices like these.

In our culture, there is a big emphasis on time away from the kids, which always seems a theme of guru books. When we shut the doors on our kids at a young age, we teach them to shut the door on us when they are able to do that.

My dd is nearly 3. We coslept so that everyone can get the most sleep, not because we believed in a philosophy. I am also lucky enough to be brought up in a culture where parents routinely roomshare or bedshare so it was easier for me to turn to dh and say, ffs, she will sleep with us because I can't get her to sleep alone. From around 2.5 yo she had her nights when she wanted to sleep in her bed, in her room eventhough we have never, not even gently, persuaded her to start. Now she wants to sleep in her room every night and sleeps there from 8-9pm till 5-6 am. There have been no tears from any of us to reach this stage. For some kids it happens sooner.

When there is no push to get into their own space, they make the move when they are developmentally ready to do it. Our job is to listen to their cues respond to them.

The link is from a very wise woman which i reread the other day. It doesn't apply to your case directly but I think you can put the framework of where you are into this picture.

as a final thought. my dd who is allergic to cow's milk and egg took longer to wean onto solids as most children do. it means she fed a lot more at night for a longer period of time. I am now pg with my second and once I got to 5 wks, i realised taht her feeding 2x between midnight and 6 am was too tiring for me. (this is only a couple months ago and she will be 3 in a couple weeks) I expected a lot of tears weaning her off those 2 feeds but i was pleasantly surprised that she only mumbled, rolled over and went back to sleep. By the following week, she was 'sleeping through' and demanding to be in her own bed. I suppose I could have gently persuaded her earlier but to be honest, dh and I have grown to love her company in bed for so long, we didn't consider it and last night for the first time in two weeks, she slept in with us because I was too tired with pg and the flu to go to her room with her. everyone slept like throught.

kiskidee that makes convincing reading. i have lots more thoughts about this but tired now and going to go to bed. thanks for all your thoughts today though.

teapot - i feel your pain. my ds is 15 months and has only slept through once or twice in his life! i was talking about it with my HV and she said I had 4 options:

1) Controlled crying
2) Rapid return (where you go in every 5 minutes till they sleep)
3) Gradual withdrawal (staying with them them till they fall asleep then gradually over a series of weeks move further and further out of the door)
4) Leave things as they are.

Currently we're co-sleeping and he always nurses to sleep. I wouldnt have a problem with that, but he's now started to not sleep unless he has the breast in his mouth. And it's driving me up the fecking wall!

We've pretty much decided on option 2 but we need to sort his room out first and I think i might be dragging my heels a little bit.

it's a right bugger isn't it??!

teapot, feel free to CAT me if you like.

I have to add, my ds2 has never slept through ever, he's 15 months in a week. The least he's done is 2/3 times a night.

I co-sleep, I bf and it's doable. Far more than getting up and going to another room to feed him every night, at least this way I get to doze

If you feel you can do it then I really think it's great to. I love the night feeds now, I was worried about them a few months ago and then I realised they wouldn't last forever and that it wouldn't be (relatively) long until they were stopped forever.

Thanks everyone. Am very conflicted. On one hand feel strong pull to AP route. Just sit it out and answer her wants believing they are her needs. Love co-sleeping. Hate idea of letting her cry.

On other hand: think she is in a bit of a rut with the evenings and would herself feel happier if she could sleep for longer periods (last night waking every 10/15 mins but quickly asleep with boob) - I remember a brief time at primary school when I caught that blinking habit. I knew I wanted to stop but couldn't for ages. I feel there's an analogy for DD and evening sleep. Also, I know if she slept for longer periods I would have more time to tidy up, make lovely food and recharge myself ready to be great mum next day. Likewise if she was able to go down for the odd nap in the day not only in sling or buggy. There's an argument that those improvements in all our lives will outweigh any brief trauma by sleep training.

My other thing about sleep training is that the fact that it seems to work so well suggests that on some level the child is also getting an outcome it wants. If you were to withold food for two days and let them cry they wouldn't suddenly give up food. But the fact that so many sleep trained babies go on to sleep so much better suggests that on some level that's what they really need to do - they don't know how.

Sorry, this is turning into a bit of an essay, but it's on my mind so much. I think the question of sleep training becomes so loaded for new parents especialy those with AP sensibilities. There's a comparison with the strong desire to have a natural birth. When it came down to it a caesarian or whatever would have been fine - what mattered was a healthy DD. I wonder if sleep training becomes a bit of a red herring.

Don't know. We're talking about it again tonight. We do need to do something. Elizabeth Pantley not working. Keep changing my mind re which way next.

Thanks for all your posts.

PS Jodie - repspect to you that you get all your household stuff done - I can't - maybe I'm just not organised enough. I wouldn't mind at all if DD wanted to feed 2-3 or even 4-5 times a night. It's just the very frequent waking in the evenings that feels wrong for ALL of us, including her...

Sorry - that was long!!!

I really do understand where you're coming from. Ds2 was exactly the same, he used to wake frequently all evening, it did stop though and now he goes to sleep about 6.30pm and usually wakes for milk at about 11pm.

When he's ill he wakes up every hour or so all evening and night but night time at the moment is 2-3 feeds.

I really understand how you feel and I felt the same, however, I am so glad that I stuck it out. Have a look at Dr Sears website and his advice on sleep

www.askdrsears.com/html/7/T070100.asp
I agree with his views and think he gives fantastic advice. Some research has suggested that controlled crying does have a long term effect on a baby but a lot of people don't want to believe that.

Don't get me wrong, I have bad days when nothing gets done but I generally try and keep on top of things during the day. I cook all my own food too, I have to or ds2 won't eat it lol, fussy so and so.

Dr Sears also explains why babies wake a lot and it makes you think about it more.

This is a very interesting discussion. I find AP ideas very intriguing and very much like the idea of responding to DS (19 weeks) needs. But I also believe that responding to needs really goes both ways and believe that our society needs more INTERdependent people.

I wanted to co-sleep, but when we did, DS fed every hour and by the end of the night I hadn't sleep well, and he started to have reflux and digestion problems. He sleeps now next to me in his own crib and the 50cm have made a big difference for us and I feel we are BOTH happier. This is just what works best for us.

The same is really the case for sleeping/resettling. I sense that DS is frustrated himself that he can't resettle when he wakes up, but when I BF him every hour or so, all the milk is coming back up again and he is unhappy. So now I try to resettle him between midnight and 5am when he wakes up, which is hard work and yes, I use a dummy, although I don't really want to. When he manages to go back to sleep he seems almost proud of it (obviously I could make this up). But this is a big issue for me as well, because I do not want him to feel abandoned/hungry and yes, I would find it weird to not pick him up when he cries, but on the other side you could tell him why you do it and I am sure he understand on some level.

I very much like your considerations about babies wanting to be able to resettle themselves, littleteapot. I think if you feel this is the right thing for you and your son, then I would go for it.

Don't know anything about sleep training apart from I always put mine down for naps and to bed while still awake, stick some soothing music on for them and hope for the best

Are you sure she's not waking due to teething pain?

teapot I would love to hear more about things you try and how they work out. I am having trouble with my 6 month old who loves to be cuddled and rocked to sleep and is very sensitive to being put down again. She wants/needs to sleep from about 7pm onwards. She is usually blissfully asleep in my arms after a bath & breasfeed, but will often wake as soon as I put her down, no matter how slowly and carefully. This can lead to an evening of a lot of crying and picking up and putting down. Yesterday I was determined not to pick her up again and to try and sooth her by patting/ rubbing her belly etc. But it drove her barmy and in the end my dh picked her up. I'd love for her to be able to cope with being put down just half drowsy, but can't see how to do this without a lot of tears. Is it worth it and would she just grow out of this need anyway?

Good luck with your dd teapot

zulubump, If you are not doing it already, try putting her down in her pram or moses basket next to the sofa downstairs with you and that way it is easy to pick her up again. Or wear her in a sling in the evening and put her to your bed, her cot or moses basket when you go to bed. It is normal for a 6 month old baby to want to be close or to be held by mum.

Just to add another thought. If AP means responding to the babies needs and the baby has a need to sleep but can't get there because it hasn't learned yet how to settle, then it would be the AP way to help it find sleep. Well, that doesn't necessarily mean sleep training, but it could. Like giving somebody a fishing rod rather then the fish ... DYSWIM?

I think the important part is to listen to the baby IYSWIM.

i find the phrase 'learn to settle' a bit misleading and loaded. Loaded because to be able to 'learn' is seen as an positive thing in this society which values self sufficiency sometimes above most other things. Misleading because babies reach a developmental stage where they acquire the ability to settle themselves with little or no imput from us. When babies have not yet reached that developmental milestone, they can become 'conditioned' to accepting that they ought to lie quietly. Some babies accept this conditioning more willingly than others. Some babies will cry unendingly for hours on end if left without being picked up. Some babies are more easy going and accept the state of things rather more easily it seems.

I say these things with the view that the human brain is the least developed of all the primates at birth. It develops rapidly in the first year so to work on the basis that at 6 months or 9 months or whatever, they should be able to 'learn to settle themselves' is a big leap of faith imo.

Good point kiskideesameanoldmother. I will think about your words.

It's just that our son is often sooo tired and he seems to want to sleep but doesn't get there. Yes -- we are helping in any way possible, but at times I get/got so tense because the whole day seems to be dominated by catching the right moment to put him in sling/pram/cot or nurse him to sleep. And then there are the times when we miss this moment and he cries and cries and cries and it is heartbreaking. This situation is not good for anybody.

Sorry didn't mean to hijack - it's just something I think a lot about at the moment.

awww glimmer, I have the t-shirt wrt the mummy angst and the tired baby. Have you seen the book 'the social baby' by lynne murray and liz andrews? it is very good for teaching parents how to read the body language of babies. very good when you think that it is the first and for many months, except for crying the only way that babies are trying to communicate with us. it is done with video stills and very little reading which for a tired babybrain, is most helpful.

at 19 weeks, i think that there would be a lot of gain for you if you were to invest in a copy of this book. I think it is great even up to a year old.

Kiskid -- sorry, I don't understand your last post, especially the "I have the t-shirt wrt the mummy angst and the tired baby". Do you mean it's a common thing of mothers to say? But doesn't that mean that is IS a problem for many mothers? Do you think this is not valid argument/problem?

I have a copy of the social baby and I love it! I agree that often there are many, many clues before a child cries. E.g. I know when my son is hungry or tired long, long before he cries. But I do not know how I can help him find sleep (is this a wording you would agree with?) Now, I do know how to deal with the hunger problem :-)

It's not unlike adults isn't it? I am often tired and know I should go to bed, but I enjoy e.g. the company of friends/knitting/a book and do not go to bed and thus am tired the next day. Well, I am responsible for the consequences of my actions, but my son surely isn't.

Lots of interesting thoughts. Kiskidee I am interested in your earlier comment that "babies reach a developmental stage where they acquire the ability to settle themselves with little or no imput from us". Is that something that has been researched and proven? And what age is that, well what is the range of ages it usually happens in? If you happen to know? Is 6 months just too early to expect this? I seem to know a lot of people with babies that actually prefer to be put down awake in order to go off to sleep. I do enjoy my cuddles with my dd to get her off to sleep, but sometimes I'd love it if she could do it all herself!

the saying is I have done that and I have the t-shirt. which is the same as been there, done that i suppose.

i think it probably inevitable that we overworry with our first born. I know I did! I found that when dd was tired, I would bf her to sleep. (i don't know how you are feeding) and I used to worry if I was making it tough for her later on as she has been at nursery since 20 wks old. I am sure she was very upset for a few days but learnt to settle there without it. Then as she got older and I was still feeding her to sleep at home, I wondered when will I stop/how will I stop. Now I don't care and I wish i didn't worry about it so much.

This however was after doing lots of reading on the web about breastfeeding and infant sleep.

zulubump: the main researchers on infants and sleep who I have read concerning infant sleep is dr James McKenna and Dr Helen Ball. They lead teams of researchers in multidisciplinary fields regarding this type of research. I must admit to being a bit nerdy when I become interested in something.

McKenna is really the first person to look at infant sleep using co-sleeping and breastfeeding as the normal way of studying infant sleep. Previous research from the 50's to 70's possibly even early 80s treated solitary sleeping and formula feeding as the norm which well, that is not how humans evolved sleeping.

It is his pioneering research and others that have had even the more well known advocates of sleep training (Ferber) in its various forms start to suggest that sleep training should wait till babies are at least 12 months old. Ferber's new book also for the first time acknowledges that co-sleeping does not have adverse effects on children and even goes so far as to say that it is a viable alternative.

this video is an excellent one hour presentation which summarises the main aspects of McKenna's work. His knowledge of the mechanics of bfing may not be quite there, but I forgive him for that.

see, i said 'learnt how to settle' that phrase is so pervasive in our thought process. I meant 'became conditioned how to settle'.

more interesting stuff here. t think "finding sleep" is a good phrase. I'm so aware of my DD getting lost in a kind of dark wood on the way to sleep. Like tonight, she crashed out (on boob as always) at 10 to 7. Woke at 7.23 (half an hour in as usual) - but not like awake - crying and frustrated but still half asleep. I've now been in here 40 mins. Each time she falls back to sleep if I try to extract myself she stirs and the cycle starts again. I do think she just wants to be asleep and just doesn't know how.

I'm not convinced all sleep training involving crying is damaging to babies - it does seem to work so quickly for many and I don't think it's because the babies learn that their cries aren't answered so they stop bothering to ask. I think it's because they have been forced to find the physiological switch towards sleep, and once they've found it, a bit like riding a bike without stabilisers, they're off.

But this doesn't make the decision to sleep train any easier - because I think the necessary switching off of maternal instincts in order to see the training through feels hugely symbolic and is something that really frightens me. Sorry that sounds so woolly - I feel woolly about it. Also, I know my DD would cry for a very long time and I'm just not prepared to do that.

But one of my anxieties about the current status quo is that by giving DD the tried and tested solution (the boob to sleep) I am reinforcing her inability to find sleep by herself. (having said that I've twice this week taken her through to watch telly with us. She's very chirpy once properly awake, and then has fallen asleep on my lap - kind of hypnotised by telly - two of very few times in her life she's gone to sleep without sucking or motion.

I just worked out that I spend an average of 4 hours a day facilitating her sleep! That's already around 1200 hours which is about 50 days! I've loved the endless walks, cuddles, feeds, and don't want to say goodbye to all that completely, but one thing's for sure - a second DC won't be able to get that service!

Anyway, Kiskidee I'll check out that video and by the way thanks for offer to Cat you - I don't actually know what it means tho!

ps, so just put her down an hour after first stirs. 15 mins on lap while writing last post did the trick. but she'll almost certainly be awake again in another half an hour...

teapot, have you tried feeding and then getting DP/H to lay cuddling her as she falls asleep? Or even you doing it? Then when she wakes, give her cuddles and see if she settles that way. If not, feed. I did that with my DD to stop night feeds at about that age and it was easy for us. (I would have fed if she hasn't settled after a few minutes but she never got too upset just seemed happy with the cuddling).

We used a dummy too though which helped probably. Recently she gave it up though, We had maybe two nights of her being restless (we co-sleep) but not significantly upset and then she started to sleep better. She is however a little older and her sleep has improved dramatically since a year old.

It may suprise you and not be as painful as you imagine. I don't think you need to sit and ignore them and I don't think gentle reassurance from you or DH as she's falling to sleep would make her feel ignored. She may be a little confused for a while but I don't think she'll ignored.

thanks gn, yes tried that a bit - she freaks with DP after 7pm and not interested in cuddles from me - only boob. but have to admit, we probably don't give things enough time - it's too easy to stick to what works. (Back in with her now - half an hour on awake again.)

Yes, very interesting thought. It seems that for many parents this is an important topic.
Thanks for he clarification, kiskid, I am not from the UK and didnt't understand the saying. It's clear now. I think you are also right about worrying a lot when it's the first.

I think in any case what counts is not to do things lightly but think about whether our actions are good for the baby. In the end, babies are very adaptable, because over thousand of years they had to be.

There is (very cientific) book by Helen Keller "Cultures of Infancy". She is an anthropologist and has studied how different cultures treat infants. One of her findings is that we tend to bring children up, so that they are optimally suited for our society. E.g. children in nomadic tribes in Africa are raised to be very interdependent. They have lots of body contact and are carried 24h a day. Their motoric skills are much more developed and they cry much less than children brought up in "Western" cultures.

In our "Western" societies children do not nearly have as much body contact, but are subject to much more object stimulation and face-to-face-time following a societal model of independency. Hence they tend to have better language skills than other children at their same age. The idea is that you need different skills to "survive" in the different cultural settings.

This makes a lot of sense to me. I agree that on evolutionary time scales it has been a very, very short time that babies are left "alone" (without constant body contact) to sleep. And while it might be good to learn early on to be "independent", I personally think that we need more "interdependence" in our society to solve our global problems.

As I said -- this is a lot on my mind...

Sorry me again: This really carries over to other aspect of life, doesn't it? I just returned to work and have lots of issues with it (one being that I still fully BF DS and have a lot of problems expressing). If I would work on a farm or be in a nomadic culture, I would carry my baby all day long and nursing would be the most natural and hygienic thing. But I sit in front of a computer all day which DS finds utterly boring even if I carry him on my back. So from an early age he will get used to not being around me at all times (currently DP watches him, in a few months nursery) but be pushed in "independence". Sorry, now I really stop. This is going way off the topic of the OP.

But I think you're right glimmer and I think that's part of my whole battle with whether to sleep train or not - that it's about defining an overall parenting approach in a way - i'm probably being overanalytical and heavy about it - i know lots of people who have sleep trained - had a couple of awful traumatic nights and then a much easier time and a much fresher, jollier baby. Having dreaded it they then wonder why they waited so long.

My latest plan is to leave things till she's one - in spirit of AP thinking. If things are still as they are by then I think it's time to shivvy things on a bit.

This thread has been really interesting. Those issues of independence/interdependence and the balance of holding onto deep maternal instincts and being realistic and pragmatic about the context and demands our culture and society. (Blimey, we should all join the OU!)

Good luck all.

a final thought (for now anyway) - someone who resorted to sleep training with great success said that it was like the baby was waiting for her mother to take control of the situation. i think we are going to leave things be for now, but i do also sometimes wonder if this really is down to me to sort...

This is all v interesting. My DS is now 1 yr and up til 9 months could put him down in cot at 7pm and he'd be off in a flash. At 9 months separation kicked in and he's a terrible sleeper. But one issue has been he's very restless from 1-2am and finds it v hard to resettle himself into deep sleep. He stopped bf at night himself from 5 months and has just dropped the last feed this week.. sad but he's decided. He has had periods of sleeping through off and on. However, my point is, I've been seeing an osteopath as I felt there was something not quite right with him, that he couldn't settle, as he was very tired but just restless. I've been cosleeping now,dh camped out on dd bedroom, and he's been getting craniosacral treatment. It's down to the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system - the flight or fight reflex is switched on basically, and it's about getting him to relax so he can sleep. I don't know if this helps, still in the thick of it. Also took to homeopath, he's on sulphur, only on it for a week so early days, and also massage down his spine after bath. Does seem happier baby and not quite so restless in early hours. We will see. Anyone any thoughts, similar experiences? I can't leave him to cry, but would like my bed back but I can live with cosleep, just got dd out of our bed this year and she's 5. You can only do what feels right for you and what fits in with everyone in the family. And yes, in the scheme of it, for such a short time in our lives.

teapot, if you start a thread asking people who have tried sleep training with no success it may help you decide because I do think there are babies / children that don't respond well to it. It's not 100 percent success rate even though it may feel like that when you're the one with a non sleeper.

Great idea, Gingernina. We tend to get feed-back from people for whom it worked and also from parents whos DC sleep 7-7. I am honest when asked, but I do not volunteer the info how often I get up at night.....

Hi teapot:
I know what you mean about if they only cry for a short time, it can't be damaging. I understand that some children don't cry for long periods of time and of course different parents have different definitions of what is long, no?

one way which i see it, and it was raised in the McKenna video and in the Kathy Dettwyler article below (based on McKenna's findings) is that long periods of solitary sleep is the desired outcome for parents. Sleep training is a method of achieving this. The side effect (can't think of a better word at the mo.) of extended solidary sleep is that the neurological system of the baby is conditioned into going into the 4th (and deepest) phase of sleep for long periods of time. When Mckenna looked at polysomnographic patterns of babies who were solitary (and bottlefed in many cases) sleepers from older research and compared them to the sleep patterns of cosleeping bfing babies and mothers, he found that they both rarely went into the 4th phase of sleep. because they are both easily aroused, should the baby experience apnea (which because their nervous system is still immature) during sleep, both mother and baby are more likely to be aroused by the lack of breathing. He is suggesting that it is during this 4th phase of sleep that SIDS may be occuring in babies who have been conditioned or learnt to go into deep sleeps before their nervous system is mature enough to always rouse from it.

Now the risk of your 10 mo old of having sids is small and it continues to diminish with time as she approaches a yr old. Sids however, is known to happen in 2yo though v. v. rarely. I am not trying to scare you, I am just passing on info I know.

The other thing which the Mckenna video raises is that touch and sound and smells are very important senses to us. He makes the analogy that baby monitors should be broadcasting our snoring to our babies rather than the other way around. All three of these sensory stimulations are deprived from a child who is not bedsharing or room sharing. There is another article I have read which states that when we are asleep, 80% of our brain is still at work and when we are dreaming, it is nearly 100% at work. So this is suggesting that there is a lot of communication going on under the radar while we sleep. It is a great article on sleep which appeared in the New Yorker and touches on sleep training, cosleeping and adult sleep.

What to me this says is that whether we are in the presence of our children at night or not, we are still defining what our relationships will be like while we are awake. I think one of Dettwyler's articles pointed out that thumbsucking, headbanging, having a comfort blanket or toy is unknown in most cultures where children are breastfed and roomshare/bedshare and that none of these activities are seen in higher primates in the wild - except for animals taht are raised by humans in zoos, for example.

Another piece of research finds that teenage boys who coslept as children were rated as better socially adjusted and more independent by their teachers - the children were all from American Forces parents who lived on the base so there was some sort of uniformity among the cohort.

I understand how powerful a draw it must be when you know a lot of people who have sleep trained and seem to have perfectly adjusted children. I have had a close friend tell me that i had to sleep train my then 16 mo old dd. One of her arguements were that well all her friends have done it, as had she. Yes, most children will on the whole turn out fine. There can be other factors at play however taht people may not agree with me where I think sleep training can play an part in the wider health and well being of a child. One theoretical example is that some children who have been expected to be more independent from an early age also had a higher incidence of depression. Now for me, I may be predisposed to depression so I will do all I can to avoid circumstances which can trigger it.

There was a thread here on MN a few months ago asking mental health workers specifically if they woudl sleep train, all except one said that they would never do it below 12 months and just one said over 12 months, if they felt they had to. To me, that speaks volumes. I have no idea however, why that thread has been deleted and wished I had saved a copy of it.

I have a suspicion it was started by someone who was trolling and didn't like the responses they got so it got 'reported'. I have had monumental back and forths on mn with a few posters wrt these topics.

Re the independence thing: a friend of mine put it this way: how can you sleep trained in order to make a child more independent. If they are not old enough to make a sandwich for themselves or wipe their own bottoms, then they can't be independent.

Anyway, I will probably leave my thoughts here. this is a monumental post and I suppose there is not much more I can share with you. If you look at the top of the page, just below the Mumsnet title the toolbar has an option called 'contact another talker' that is CAT.

I dont' think this paragraph is saying what i meant to say"

"There was a thread here on MN a few months ago asking mental health workers specifically if they woudl sleep train, all except one said that they would never do it below 12 months and just one said over 12 months, if they felt they had to. To me, that speaks volumes. I have no idea however, why that thread has been deleted and wished I had saved a copy of it. "

It should read like this:
None of the mental health professionals said that they would ever sleep train. One said she would do it but not with a child under 12 months old. I think there were at least 6 respondees but no more than 10 as i recall.

i meant to say too, that waiting another couple months may be a good idea as by then her sleeping pattern will probably be different.

10mos old is linked to separation anxiety which seems particularly bad when they are learning to walk. they want their independence but as soon as they have strayed too far in their limited experience, they scream for you. I can't see how it doesn't affect night time behaviour. I found dd very clingy coming up at 2yo. Her speech came later than her peers and at the same time it was coming was starting to realise that there was social protocols and was trying to work out things. It made her very nervous. As soon as her speech came, she was off and running again.

Wow kiskidee thank you so much for sharing all your knowledge with us. I've had so many people tell me I need to do controlled crying with my 6month dd. HVs always seem to recommend it and I've been wondering who has actually researched the effects it has on babies. A friend said her HV told her that some babies make themselves sick during controlled crying and that this is fine. Just take them out cot and clean up with minimum fuss and then carry on! For anyone to be physically sick from crying must show that a massive amount of stress is going on inside. Surely this must be really bad for a baby. But it just seems to be the accepted wisdom that controlled crying is ok to use on babies.

I find myself getting so confused about what is best for me and dd though. My friend that used controlled crying said her son (5mo) cried for 30mins then fell asleep and has been great 12hour sleeper ever since. But I don't think my dd would give in that easily.

this is the New Yorker article. it is fascinating. it is cited as the first time that Ferber admits to being wrong about co-sleeping which he direly warned against in the original copy of his book. His current edition now has a whole chapter on cosleeping.

I suggest to anyone who wants to make an informed decision, to do her own reading and not go by what people say you must do. I have saved a load of links if anyone wants to be swotty about it like myself.

Yes, thank you Kiskidee for taking the time to write such detailed posts. it really helps people like me who feel very confused. for the first 6 months of her life dd was always in the same room as me or DP - she slept on our laps for the first part of the evening
because she woke so frequently and then came to bed with us. And i loved this because the idea of her being in a different room somewhere terrified me. I have never been sure if that was more about me than her so it's great to hear about research that backs up my very basic instincts. There is defintely now a separation anxiety link with dd and I have often wondered if her sleep worsens as her daytime adventuring increases.

Zulubump i too have heard of people who did cc and it worked in under half an hour. Like yours, my dd would hold out ALOT longer.

Anyway, I'm sold - I'm not doing anything right now. I guess the thing is to try and arrange other aspects of life so that things can function as well as possible within these constraints.

Tassiesuzy i know what you mean - dd really needs motion, sucking etc. i took her to a cranial osteopath and for a week she was better only waking hourly but after the next two sessions she was the same so i gave up on it.

Kiskeedee - i've also read somewhere that more development occurs in lighter sleep but don't know if that's true.

The only thing I don't agree with so much is about independence - I watch dd growing more independent by the day - she can drink from a cup by herself now, is confident about leaving the room, ie is independently mobile, knows so much about her world and how it works. But not sleep. It does seem weird it's so hard to learn something so fundamental. And, by the way, I'm not interested in her sleeping 7-7 because as above that would scare me and I would be awake all the time checking her! But waking every 10-15 mins on occasion does seem a bit much.

Anyway thanks again for your posts.

the new yorker article talks about the brain development thing specifically occurring in REM. and babies spend 2 or 3 times longer in REM than adults do.

I breastfeed and cosleep with my ds (14 months), and up to about one month ago, he would wake every half hour up to midnight, and then about every hour or hour and a half.

I was absolutely shattered all the time, and had begun to feel that life wasn't worth living. But lately, he has begun to improve - all by himself. He is still always breast-fed to sleep, but now he is beginning to pull away and fidgit, like he wants to be put down so he can go to sleep. I see this as a totally natural development, and I am so happy I did not do cc. People who warn you that you MUST cc are actually advising you out of ignorance. Yes, in the long run you have to put in more hours, more energy and patience in this (let's call it) 'more natural' way, but I feel strongly that what kiskidee says is right - and my experience with ds proves it. My ds is extremely sensitive and intelligent for his age (70 word vocab list at 14 months), which I partly put down to the results you get from attachment parenting - and of course, partly inheriting my genes! And I bet you anything in 20 - 50 years time, anyone practicing anything other than AP-type parenting will be viewed very dimly.

<preen> at phdiva

these articles on this link is a good place to do some reading on mother / child sleep behaviour.

some of you may not want to read 'mothering' magazine because you do not consider yourself as lentil weavers, neither do i. however, they are measured articles which base their assertions in evidence based research, which if you have the facility, you can source for yourself. not a lot of websites or magazines offer that, so make your mind up for yourself on that issue.

mckennas site also has powerpoints from some of his presentations and longer articles which have been printed in academic journals, so it is a site worth coming back to time and time again, if you have the time and inclination to inform yourself.

good luck!

Hello, I don't know if anyone is still watching this thread. I've found it really interesting food for thought. I have been thinking about habit-forming. When I spoke to a HV about my dd's need to be cuddled and rocked to get to sleep she said this was very habit-forming. She said if I didn't want to do controlled crying then I should try settling her whilst still awake in her cot (didn't work, she went beserk that I wasn't picking her up). HV said that all the cuddling was forming a habit such that my dd needed it in order to get to sleep. I guess a HV might say the same about teapot's dd's need for a bf to get to sleep. I do worry sometimes that I'm hindering my dd's development in the area of getting herself off to sleep by always obliging with a cuddle. All the books on sleep talk about babies needing to form the correct associations with bedtime (eg bath, story etc). If babies develop the ability all by themselves to get off to sleep without the need for any "training" then where does the whole habit-forming/associations thing fit in with that? I hope this post makes sense?

Hi Zulu, yes still here. I've worried about the habit thing too, but since I've resolved to go with the flow till DD is one at least, I've stopped worried about that. I'll worry about habits like nail biting or smoking when she's older! But this is a very natural mothering process and they will grow out of it when they're ready. (See how I've come round since my OP? I do think part of it is resolving to ignore social pressures - I wasn't conscious of how much they were playing a part in my concerns)

In terms of the habit thing I've read all those books that say don't let her fall asleep on the breast but from day one she did and what was I supposed to do? Wake her up? So it's not a habit if it's just what they've always done is it? aren't habits external behaviours you adopt? Having said that I do worry i'm reinforcing her perception that there's only one way to sleep so in that way I agree with you. But she's so upset if i try to withold maybe she's just not ready to discover otherwise...

My biggest worry is that DD will want to bf for many months or years and I want another one soon and don't know if I"ll be one of those women who gets AF back while still bfing or not! so not sure what to do about that but still relieved to have put any sleep training plans on ice till she's one at least and will also keep trying at No-Cry Sleep Solution too.

the whole 'association' thing seems to be the page out of Ferber's original book that suited the ideals of the baby sleep gurus.

looking at the rocking/cuddles thing, babies have been rocked and cuddled to sleep inside the womb, long before you can control how you put them to sleep. of course they come out with the 'association' then! t'is only natural and you didn't force that association on them.

the same with the feed to sleep association. evolution has made it a natural way of helping us get babies to sleep. milk has hormones in it that relax babies and send them off to sleep. sleep and breastfeeding evolved together. babies have been fed to sleep since the dawn of time. milk is about comfort and security as well as nutrition and we all want to feel comforted and secure when we are drifting off, no?

as their brains develop, they slowly stop needing these things to send them off to sleep.

fwiw, i am still feeding my dd to sleep or rather, i feed her in bed, pop her off she rolls away and drifts off. tonight, she asked for some 'juice' first, had a sip and went to sleep without a nipple in her mouth.

sometimes, I cuddle her in and rock her a bit. by rock i mean move her body back and forth while lying next to her and she drifts off. most times now i do nothing.

some nights, i fall asleep before she does and dh jokes that dd has put me to bed.

it is inconvenient sometimes. but most times i find that rather than getting up and doing things, I just lie quietly next to her, listening to her breathe and think, I'll get up in a minute and then i don't.

if dh and I want to go out, we don't sweat routine. we would let her have a long or a late nap, go out, and she falls asleep (really late) next to her babysitter. the next day, she sleeps in and/or has a really long nap and by the night time, is ready to go to bed round her normal time. because there have never a battle over going to bed.

about the ttc. dd was almost exclusively fed till 13 months when she started to eat some semi dry solids. as i have said, she has dairy and egg allergy which probably played a role in her late weaning. AF came back at 13 months.

if your dd is getting on well with solids, i would not sweat it. after a year, most babies start to have longer gaps in feeding if not at night time, in the daytime due to solids intake and it is this gap that begins to trigger fertility. the no cry sleep solution book by elizabeth pantley has tips in how to get a baby to wake less during the nights and it is co-sleeping friendly.

Another thought. Today I saw the friend who got results from using controlled crying on her 5 month old (he fell asleep after 30mins and slept well the following nights). She said he has started waking and crying again. So she only got about 1 week of good sleep before he started to wake and cry again, so now she doesn't know what to do and has just been ignoring his cries. That confirmed one of my fears of controlled crying, if it works to begin with and then stops working, where do you go from there. I think it becomes tempting to always ignore your baby's cries because you got results that way first time round.

We have been struggling by with our dd's night wakings by bringing her into our bed after a certain time at night (say ater 11pm). We only have double bed though, so dh has been going into spare room. But we have ordered a super-king bed, should be here in a week or two. We'll see how that goes.

I know I didn't start this thread but thanks to everyone as it's been a tricky time recently and I've been very tempted to try cc as I don't know anyone who doesn't think it is a good idea. To hear from people, even though only online, who are prepared to do things a different way has been a big support to me!

Yes Zulu I've also found this thread an incredible support. I feel SO much better now I've decided not to do cc - the worrying about what to do was even more stressful than the constant waking. Last night I managed to pat DD to sleep a couple of times. She woke minutes later but it's still a big leap. She's teething tonight so not waking alot, but I'm glad she knows she can call me for comfort when in pain.

The other thing I haven't said on this thread yet is that I have a weird thing about not wanting to intervene because I want to see how things work out for themselves. It's like not reading the last page of the novel before you've read the middle.

When I started this thread I think I wanted an AP person to tell me sleep training was ok but now I realise I was after support for my true instincts - otherwise i would just have gone ahead.

it is hard to go against the flow of what we see around us teapot. however, informing yourself helps alot. there are a lot of APers on MN (or follow a lot of the principles without designating themselves as such) so it is a good idea to look for their threads which over time, give insight into the bigger picture and also to let you know that you are not alone.

I don't have a single AP type friend in my day to day circle and only one friend who follows a lot of the principles who lives 7 hrs away. we chat on the phone sometimes, email sometimes and have helped each other with different parts of the 'programme' at different times because we have our stronger points on mothering so we ask and share ideas.

i smiled at the idea of not wanting to intervene. i know what you mean.

you will love the super-king zulubump. we upgraded from a double and i am grinning because dh still had the occasional night when dd and I took over nearly the whole bed and he'd find himself sleeping on the edge.

but a big bed is fantastic.

last week dh told MIL that dd is now in her bad all night. now she has never given her opinion before but now she chose to and started to lecture dh about how it is a good thing because it is dangerous to have them in bed with you. [roll eyes]

dh listened politely but later told me he was on the verge of telling her: You know what, if the four of us want to sleep in the same bed, that is what we will do. (meaning the one on the way) this from a man who pre-baby would have thought cosleeping as the equivalent of moving to the moon.

Kiskidee I am curious to know whether you think you will be able to follow AP principles as much with your second child? I seem to spend so much time at the moment cuddling my dd when she needs sleep that I can't imagine how I would do the same for a second child without completely neglecting the first? A lot of people seem to say that the second child just has to fall in with the routine of the first, like it or not.

Also I have the luxury of not worrying about an imminent return to work, which a lot of my friends that have used cc have had the pressure of. It feels right to me to try and do a lot of things the AP way, but I feel like it demands a lot of time. How do people in other cultures who do the whole AP thing instinctively cope I wonder. They still need sleep and to get up and make the breakfast, do chores etc. Just thinking out loud...

Hmm Wasn't sure if I should start another thread or post here... I have a sleep dilemma and could do with some opinions.

DS is 4.5 months old. Up until recently he slept 3h or 4h, woke up for some food (fully BF) and went right back to sleep.

Recently, he started to wake up at least every 2h. Unfortunately, this more or less coincided with me having to return to work. I think most of the time he is not hungry, but wakes up and cannot find sleep by himself.

I seem to have several options here of which I consider the two following.

a) Go down the route of least resistance/most natural way, which is BF him back to sleep at least 4 times a night. The problem is he has a reflux problem and putting him down without keeping him vertical results in the milk coming up over the next hours, which means he wakes up again. Also, he then seems to wake up twisting with indigestion until he manages
to eliminate (=pooh)

b) Resist nursing him each time, but try to settle him in other ways, mostly by carrying him around for 30min, then put him down in crib next to bed and use a dummy, which I have to hold for him. (We have tried co-sleeping in the same bed but that does not work for us). This way I get about 4*1.5 h of sleep and I am sooooo tired all day and dread the nights.

Especially, since I returned to work I want to be there for him, even if he wakes up just to check if mummy is there. I am very happy to spend time with him, even if that mean being very tired, but what really get to me is the constant battle. Alternatively, I could just BF each time, get a lot more sleep, let him suffer a little from reflux and indigestion, respond to his wanting to BF more because it helps with either of those and not worry about strengthening the sucking-to-sleep and sucking-to-comfort associations.

My dilemma is, that bfing him is not really in his best interest, but in mine. And yes: I would like to encourage him to find sleep by himself if he wants to and by constantly bfing him I seem to make him more and more dependent on me.

Zulu -- I have thought a lot about the question you ask and I think the answer lies in the social environment. I think in the cultures that use AP principles naturally, there tend to be large families and the babies are handed of from one family member to the next. Here, there is often one caregiver, and following AP principles if often exhausting for this caregiver. I notice the difference when e,g, my mom is here. One can cook while the other one entertains DS and in no time there is a delicious home made dinner and did not have to be out down/in a sling etc.

Sorry for all the typos. I am very tired and seem to be too tired to face getting some work done.

Mine has a dummy for sleeping. She usually falls asleep in my arms/a sling/my bed around 11pm with the dummy, sleeps through til about 5am usually. Stirs occasionally in the night but can settle herself with the dummy to suck and doesn't require a boob in her mouth.

I really planned not to use dummies at all, and held out for about 6 months or so with my first - the dummy changed both our lives tbh I'm not sure why people have such a big problem with them.

zulu, i mean to respond but been busy.

Hi, I came across these threads and felt that I should say a few things.
My name is Becky and I am a problem solving maternity nurse, which includes sleep training, I am also a paramedic and have worked with mothers and babies in mental health.
I sleep train regularly, I spend time with the family to truly understand what the problem is, I then offer solutions. I think Ferber is utter rubbish, his way often doesn't work. As parents who have been woken continually during the night since baby was born, it is hard for you to listen to their continual cries,despite going into their room often, for those who have attempted Ferber with their babies will know that it is very hard work and requires the strength of a gladiator not to go in pick them up and continue as you were before!
All children can settle themselves to sleep, they just need help learning.
Most babies up to the age of 18mths can be sleep trained usually within a week of me coming to help, sometimes it's only 24 hours, the older the child the longer they need to get used to the new sleeping arrangements.
I'm not here to shamelessly advertise but to offer an alternative solution and let you know that there are professionals out there who are experienced with developed ways of training who won't charge you the earth!

www.happierfamilies.co.uk

Happier families, MN has a £30 fee for advertisement for small business.

Zulu: DD is now 3 and has made the transition from our bed to hers in her own time. in the last 2 months, she has been in our bed 2x. She steadfastly refuses to come in at 5 or 6am when she wakes up and wants a cuddle back to sleep. I or dh goes in and lie with her. Mostly she wants me though.

I trust that when the time comes, she will accept dh more willingly when i am more occupied with the baby. She night weaned when I needed her to. When I was about 8 wks pg and my nipples started to hurt and i was feeling more and more tired. I thought it would be a few nights of tears but it wasn't. Within a week of nightweaning, she started to sleep for 6 hrs, now about 9 and then asked to sleep in her own room.

We have always kept some flexiblity with her bedtime. So I will play it by ear then too. She may or may not accept dh putting her to bed at first but as time goes on things will change. As for the baby, I plan to go with the flow. If i want to watch telly, i am happy to let baby sleep downstairs on me/on dh/on a sheepskin rug till we go to bed. I think moses baskets are naff. If I need to take dd to bed still, then the 3 of us will fit in a bed.

Oh, i will also be using a wrap sling a lot early days just to keep the baby close, snug and feeding hands free.

Dh, in a different convo with his mum who is anti-cosleeping has already said, "Look, if the 4 of us want to sleep in the same bed, that is what we will do."

sorry it took so long to get back. been suffering with my early pg and now my hips.