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It's more a case of why should some random person albeit employed by a hospital know the sex of my baby yet I am charged for the priviledge. It's more about feeling ripped off as in London they simply told you if you wanted to know and they happened to notice.
Whether or not you choose to find out is a personal choice. Some people like to know, others don't. End of. I liked to find out and I do think it's unfair that different hospitals have different policies.
Thanks Custardo, people around here are very nice and uncomplaining and sometimes I think I'm the only one venting my spleen.
I found out through a lawyer friend that hospitals can't really have a "no tell in this area in case you abort your baby" policy because it is actually quite a racist policy. Given that shrewsbury is predominently white and the ethnic minorities in the area wouldn't really be involved in this issue I really do feel it is just a money making scheme.
In the literature from my hospital it said they wouldn't look for the sex but if they happened to notice they would tell you. At my scan though she asked me if I'd like her to check. All very confusing. I didn't want to know so it didn't affect me anyway but I kind of agree there should be a blanket line on this.
At Chelsea where I am they will tell you if they see. They will not tell you at 12 weeks. Actually last pg my daughter had her legs tightly shut, they let me go off for a walk and a coke and squeezed me in for 5 mins after the next scan was over to look again (when they found out). So above and beyond really. This time all my scans have been private so he has told me whatever I wanted to know at any stage.
I really wanted to know the sex of my first baby as hubby was working 7000 miles away and if he couldn't be at the scans at least he could know if he was having a boy or girl. This time I would like to know for more practical reasons in that it is 30 miles to the shops which would be difficult to do with a toddler and I only have boy stuff so I would like to organise girl clothes in advance. Obviously alot of things are bought online but I would actually like to see whats available in RL aswell.
Nothing to do with hospitals worrying about being sued as they all use a disclaimer of "We cannot be 100% sure but I think it is a ......." My sonographer laughed after saying it and proceeded to print of a picture clearly showing boy bits [see pic on my profile] lol. Some people just want to know, we did with ds, we have 3 girls and wanted to know how our family dynamics were going to change. Am really pleased we know actually - means we have got all the "A boy at last." comments out of the way before he is born and hopefully my girls won't have to hear them as they introduce their new brother to people.
because plenty of people don't have the choice made for them by the hospital, it depends where you live, which is unfair, and the hospital makes you pay for the knowledge when they could tell you for free!
Here in Colchester, they won't tell you. After talking to my consultant about why not, he said it was because ALL the gynae / obstetric consultants had to agree to the sexing scans and currently there is ONE chap who won't agree.
My consultant thinks it is a jolly good idea.
Incidentally, we had a private scan for £100 in Ipswich at a clinic. Not so interested in the sex but in the 4d technology.
Thats funny podglet because when I asked the scanner with DS at colchester they told me it was in case they got sued!
I'm glad I couldn't find out though as it was so nice telling DP we had a DS when he was born. I would be very tempted this time around though but we can't afford a private scan.
I really wanted to know too and my hospital had a policy of not telling, despite the fact that I don't live in a very multicultural area at all.
I WAS annoyed, because I know that if I had lived 40 mins up the road, I would have had the choice to find out for free.
I know it's not exactly a life-or-death thing, and I didn't care if it was a boy or a girl, but speaking purely from a personal perspective, finding out the sex has really helped me to bond with my baby and think of him as a member of the family.
It helped me to go from thinking of him as a generic baby to an actual person, iyswim, though I've had LOADS of people completely incredulous that I wanted to find out!
I agree Borglady, finding out really helped me bond with my baby too.
I think Franny that this is also about fairness, why should I be allowed to know the sex of my baby when I lived in London but not now I will be going to shrewsbury to have the scan.
The thing that would really get me was if the sonographer knew and I didn't. It's my body and my baby, so I think that I should know if they do. I don't have a problem with people who chose not to find out though - it's a very personal decision.
I am sorry but I think you are being ridiculous if you don't want the sonographer to know the sex of your baby then don't have a scan really who gives a stuff
I don't understand why you would have to pay for this. I think the lawsuit thing is just an excuse too. You are being treated like 'children'...this is ridiculous. Why not contact your health minister (or whatever they're called) or the head of the NHS and demand an explanation why this is so? If you want to know, it should be your right to know throughout the country.
It's interesting that in the US (where we're supposedly always suing) there's no question that you won't learn the sex of your child unless you don't want to know. Of course in some instances, they might not be able to tell depending on how the
Don't continue to put up with this injustice!
Franny, if YOU don't want to know the sex of your child, fine, but how dare you impose your beliefs on others?
LOL 'how dare you impose your beliefs on others' what, by typing them on an internet discussion forum? you're offended by reading my views, or do you think I am responsible for these policies?
I believe that citing the Human Rights Act because you can't find out the sex of your baby without paying is ruddy ridiculous
I don't think that is so shocking that I shouldn't dare say it
I think you mistaken if you think that knowing what the sex of your baby is would help with the 'bonding' process. Actually, that is the biggest load of guff I've ever heard.
The hosp where I had my dd's had a policy that they would tell you but you had to ask at the beginning of the scan - although they state that it may not be 100% correct etc.
As it happens, as I'm old I had 2 CVS's so found out 100% correct as is a chromosome test. I looked at it this way I was risking a miscarriage by having the test, so if I didn't miscarry and the chromosome test was O.K. then I found out the sex.
Didn't make me bond more- but was lovely to know for definite very early on.
It doesn't seem fair that there isn't a national policy - or consistency for that matter - we all pay the same National Insurance rates.
SunshineMummy I had my 20 week scan at Barnsley 2 weeks ago and they told me. They even asked me if I wanted to know, but with the usual caveats that based only on a scan they can't be 100% sure, but he did find a willy!
I do believe though that it is only very recently that Barnsley have started tell.
I sympathise that they won't tell you but how on earth can it be a breach of your right to family life or privacy? Like Franny says - the scan is not obligatory so you do not have to reveal the information and submit to it if you don't want to. And not sure how it could ever breach your right to family life? expatinengland surely the difference in the US is that you are paying for your scan. With a private scan here in the UK, nobody would deny your right to know either. I'm not defending the policy and disagree with the whole postcode lottery wholeheartedly - and also some people have such vehemently expressed views why others shouldn't find out - can't see why it's anyone else's business except the pg couple whether they choose to find out or not! but if the baby is cooperating I think we should all be told if we so choose.
Well I mentioned the Human Rights Act because I know that it can be applied across many situations in Healthcare and actually denying people the information if the sex of the baby is identified epecially in order to make money is pretty disrespectful in my opinion.
I know of cases where the sonographer has actually asked "Do you know the sex of your baby?" so they clearly know but refuse to tell, many people I know, myself included just can't afford to pay for an extra scan. A radiography friend has concerns about unecessary scans on health grounds aswell.
I accept you can't understand why I am bothered Franny but I have worked in NHS and to be treated as a cashcow frankly pisses me off as actually I do want to know for the reasons stated previously. You obviously don't live is a rural area so have no concept of how difficult things can be when you do live miles from shops.
By the way, you can't find out the sex in all parts of London. My step-sister's LHA had a no tell policy too. She's in north London. My LHA tells if asked (south London).
I didn't want to know.
My friend did, and was told was having a boy. Bit of a surprise when her lovely dd was born!
I wouldn't mind if they got it wrong, at Chelsea there were disclaimer signs and you only got to know if the sex was revealed as part of the scan anyway, it is the inconsistency across the service that annoys me!
Yes, white, yellow or cream are really the best things for newborns: looks fantastic against new skin. Very plain and simple showing off the newness and beauty of a small baby. Mail order/internet shopping? I think that living in a rural area being an argument against a particular health trust's policy is a little tenuous.
ed at this! I wanted to know my baby's sex and I will when I have more children. At my scan I asked "can you tell if it's a boy or girl?" and she said "yes. Do you want to know?" and I said "yes" and she said "it's a boy". Simple. I was a bit surprised and disappointed at first because I was hoping to have a girl but it took me all of an hour to start getting excited about lego and train sets and it wasn't long before I was thrilled to be having a boy. I think that knowing helped me to sort of get to know him and fall in love with him while I was still carrying him, it added to the excitement, I loved buying boy things, choosing boys names and imagining him as a child growing up... I'd be really cross if in the future they wouldn't tell me! They know but they won't tell you unless you pay? Ridiculous.
I think I have made my arguments quite plain, it's a preference based on lots of levels, personal reasons aswell as on more pragmatic reasons. I have given alot of myself to the NHS over the over the years and helped many many people and I feel like I'm being ripped off by the hospital I was born and have worked in.
I think it's ethically dubious for a sonographer to have withold information about your own baby if you have asked for it and they know the answer. We all have the right to see what's in our medical records so why not this?
Oh Expat will you be asking then? I am quite keen to know what you will be having, very sad of me I know but I imagine certain people with 3 girls and you are one of them
I have actually loved knowing this time, it has been good for us, not sure if it has anything to do with it being the only pregnancy where we have had genuine concerns for the baby's health iykwim.
i'm 90+% certain it's a girl. BUT, i have been wrong before.
for once, we'd just like to know.
this trust tells you.
but what does really suck and is unfair is that, in this trust, i got full CUBS screening - the nuchal+biochemistry screen - and the 20-22 weeks anomaly scan and told the sex, all on the NHS.
but women living in the trusts that share our borders get a 13 week scan and that is it.
for everything else, they have to pay, and it's not cheap - £150 for the nuchal and about £150 for the anomaly/gender screen.
1st baby, hospital wouldn't tell for 'ethical' reasons. I was very very annoyed. If the technology is there and the sonographer knows, - why can't I know. I asked anyway, and they told me to book a scan at their private wing for £120.
2nd baby, they had changed their policy, but you had to ask at the beginning of the scan and they would look only if it was quick and easy and didn't eat into diagnostic time for you or any other patient, which I thought was fair enough.
Chewable I disagree wholeheartedly. I suffered antenatal depression with no.1 and desperately wanted to find out the sex so I could try to identify with the baby and make it more real. With no.2 I was going the same way, but after having found out it was a girl became a lot more attached and comfortable with my pregnancy.
With the first, - I didn't mind what sex it was at all, - but it did feel like a big conspiracy, - that the hopital had this big secret and deliberately weren't telling me in order to make money in their private wing!
FWIW: I got no disclaimer with no 2. The sonographer said 100% it was a girl and laughed when I asked her how she could be so sure.
I was asked whether I would like to know with my first (n. ireland) but refused. Have no idea whether they tell you where I am now but have no intention of finding out.
We don't even get the 12 week dating scan- have to pay if you want one of those.
But people have said it's because some people will then abort female babies, how can you object to this because you want to know to go shopping? we're 'women'
Why should the overwhelmingly vast majority of people be denied a piece of information that will bring them happiness because anecdotally there is a possibility that a tiny minority of people may misuse that information? Should we ban alcohol because some people drink too much and commit crimes while under the influence? Do you really think that if someone was prepared to abort a child on the basis of its sex alone, they wouldn't pay a few quid for a private scan? So I think that argument is a non-starter myself.
Actually dh and myself were saying to each other just this morning that this gov. really needs to do something about licensing laws (we live just off the high Street see and it's like a zoo out there most nights)
what do you think about the smoking ban? do you think we should be reducing salt in food? what do you think about marketing fast food on childrens TV? or all those toy ads at Christmas?
i think there should be a blanket policy, one way or another.
because folks who are going to abort if it's female at a 20 week scan are generally going to have the means to either pay privately for a very expensive abortion in the UK or travel abroad for one, so it stands to follow if their trust won't tell them they'll just go private, anyhow.
we couldn't care one way or another - i was far more worried about the nuchal scan/blood test results - but for once, we'd like to know, to tell the girls the baby's name, our family, start to talk to the baby not just 'it' or 'baby'.
if they weren't going to tell us, however, we'd break out the credit card.
My husband's family is Asian - none of them ever want to find out beforehand - they think we are strange as we do! I can see both sides. But in the case of OP's hospital, it is clearly not a policy in place because they are concerned about people aborting girl babies - because they will happily tell you - if you pay them to! I think that's lousy just using curiosity as a money-spinner, regardless of people's personal reasons for finding out. Either tell or don't. I do think we should all be told if they can see. There are always ways that people can sex their baby, so the NHS refusing to tell people doesn't save any lives ultimately, I suspect.
Well, yes, abortion is legal in the UK up to 24 weeks, but you do realise that the NHS won't abort on hte basis of gender and that if you go private it can be VERY costly as you go along in the 2nd trimester due to the procedures involved.
anyone who has that kind of money will likely go abroad where they won't raise any eyebrows.
no, you wouldn't say that, but you do have to convince them.
and let's face it, people are discriminatory, if you are Asian and go to your GP for hte referral that you need on the NHS and he/she finds out you just had the scan, it's not going to take a rocket scientist for them to raise their hackles about it, especially if you've already been to your midwife appointments, had blood tests and the like.
whereas, if you go abroad, in some places, you don't even have to put on an act. you just pay the money and they do it.
The law's a bit different for a late termination, too. You can't just have it be damaging to health; it has to be worse than if you continued with the pregnancy. (Though honestly it's a meaningless distinction, because it's almost always safer to not be pregnant.)
Frankly I think it's ludicrous that that's used as a justification, because anyone who is that desperate to know would shell out for a sex scan. I very, very much wanted a girl, so I wanted to know in advance so I could reconcile myself to a boy (as I have done) well in advance, rather than greet the poor little guy with hormonal misery. I don't want his first few days of life to be less than happy because of an irrational emotion I could deal with in advance. Sod clothes - I dislike pink, anyway. To have someone in the NHS be all, well, we know but why do you need to...? About MY pregnancy would infuriate me. It's not as if it's their concern - it isn't a health-related matter. If they just hadn't seen genitals and hadn't time to spare waiting for him to move, absolutely fair enough, but to know and refuse to tell the mother is just rude.
If a hospital had a policy of not telling because of the termination of girls then why would the very same hospital tell you they will give you a gender scan privately. So they are happy to have you terminate after paying £100 but not happy to tell you for free. If a hospital truly held a no tell policy due to termination based on gender then they would presumably refuse to carry out gender scans full stop.
When Bevan created the NHS he created it so that there would be equality between rich and poor. I think these local policies are inherently against the principles of the NHS and ethically dubious indeed.
Expat - No 20 weeks scan in Edinburgh is also disgraceful!
no idea on policies but we have a genetic condition in my family and the sonographer actually took ages trying to find the sex for us the syndrome is in boys so do they give me the chance to terminate better than others i told them i wanted to know to prepare myself which is a good job seeing as hes got it hes due in july
Qally FWIW I think (and I gather from on here) that you may well be hormonally miserable after the birth but for the vast majority of Mothers it won't be because the child wasn't the sex they wanted/expected it will be because of the hormones. The endorphins (or whatever) kick in and the love/urge to protect/nuture whatever kicks in regardless in order to ensure survival of the human race
They don't check the gender just so they can say ya boo sucks we know what you're getting and we're not telling, they are trying to check genetalia have developed properly and your child isn't indeterminate sex, (I think if these things are dealt with early and the parents prepared surgery is much more successful [emotionally not just physically] I hasten to add it really is a think not a know
Although I do agree it is a bit off for them to do the scan whilst saying if you want to know you have to go next door and hand over £70.
I wonder where the money's going and whether the trust is getting it's full cut and who is doing the scans? Maybe write to the chief exec and ask why he is allowing private medicine running within the NHS? and can he let you know the financial details so you can check they're not profiteering off the back of the public purse or something?
He will probably reply it's all part of our beloved leaders choice agenda!
1dilemma, thanks for that, but it's a bit personal for me because my mother didn't bond with my brother for a long, long time from gender disappointment. That was how her acute PND manifested itself. (He also turned out to be on the autistic spectrum, which makes my kids at higher risk, and boys are a lot more likely to be affected, which probably have reinforced my own wish for a girl. AS kids are in my experience not easy.) She feels awful now, and they're very close indeed, but when she was ill (which was several years) she could be very unkind about how useless sons were, which has to have hurt my brother horribly. I'm over-compensating I'm sure, but I was worried when a strong, strong bias started with me too, and wanted to nip it in the bud if a boy was en route. I want my son to feel welcomed and secure from day dot.
Basically, I don't give a damn about clothes (I prefer blue anyway, on boys and girls!) but I do have other - I feel legitimate - reasons for wanting to know, and some of the comments here seemed to find that incomprehensible. I also feel that using personal, already available data as a money-spin is really unethical and rather obnoxious- not to mention that the WHO has expressed slight reservations about the advisability of repeated scans where not medically indicated, so WTF are a trust doing advocating 2 when 1 will do just fine?
I'm living in Asia (Singapore) and 27 weeks with 1st DC. Yes, culturally a lot of people would prefer a boy first here and in China they aren't allowed to tell you because of the girls that are aborted. However, all of my colleagues and locals that I know think I'm completely mad for not wanting to find out what I'm having - apparently I won't be able to plan properly....
I do have to pay for all my scans so the situation is a little different to the NHS but surely it is a personal choice if you want to know then you should be able to find out if you don't then so be it. For me there aren't any real surprises left in life anymore so I'm glad to have one left.
Righto..How about a letter to the Director saying something like this...
Dear ...
I understand that during the routine antenatal scans that the sonographer will not disclose the sex of the baby if requested to by the mother and that an additional scan has to be purchased privately if the mother wishes to know the sex of their baby.
It is common practice in other hospitals to provide a disclaimer stating that the the sonographer may be wrong with regard to the sex and that if the sex can't be observed on the scan then additional scans will not be carried out just to determine the sex of the baby.
I think it is ethically and morally wrong to charge for additional antenatal scans to determine the sex of the baby in instances when the sonographer can clearly see the sex of the baby. That information should be provided free if the parents wish to know that information.
I have heard of instances where midwives have inadvertently advised the mother of the sex of the baby as it has been written down in the notes. Why should a stranger know the sex of womens baby within a womans body but the woman herself not be party to that information unless she pays.
The NHS should provide a fair and equitable service to all and at present your hospital is not doing so as I know of many women who wish to know the sex of their baby but cannot afford an extra scan.
Under The Freedom of Information Act can you please advise me of the revenue obtained from these additional private scans in the last financial year?
I would take out paragraph 4 I don't think it ads anything.
You could put in the ethics of those who do want to know needing to have another scan when unnecessary scans are to be avoided (?google WHO and reference)
Are you sure the scans are conducted on NHS grounds during the working day? (could always phone to enquire about appointments to find out) could take out the bit about freedom of info act (can always use it if request is refused in next letter) they might just tell you for free. Could ask can you tell me how much revenue is generated, reassure me that the NHS is making a profit from this which is reinvested for patient benefit at the point of care in services freely available to all ask to see costings proving that staffing, power and ground rent have been commercially charged.
I havn't written it properly but I think you need to probe more if you are asking for financial info need to know how much is generated what is done with it and does NHS get it's cut.
Qally, you see to my mind you do have good reason to find out the gender, but of course you shouldn't have to justify yourself to me so yet again mumsnet humbles me by making me realise that what seems so simple at first is not, sorry
I can't remember whether you are having a B or a G but I'm absolutely sure you will just be delighted/bowled over/head over heels for years to come Good luck
Good points and will take on board what you have all said. I know the trust is in debt so would imagine they are trying anything to cut the debt. They are in debt because when Labour came to power they spent huge amounts of money on short term projects which failed to deliver effective outcomes, and of course mergers, restructures and lots of new letterheads later they are paying for it!!!
I gave birth at Shrewsbury Hospital just over 2 years ago with dd2. This policy of charging to find out sex of baby came in just a couple of months before I got pregnant. I didn't pay to know - thought it was too much and what a cheek. Definitely a money making scheme - midwives told me so.
Would it do any good now that dd2 is 2+? I'm also not in the UK anymore even though I was invited back to Shrewsbury by the midwife who attended me as she told me I was a pleasure to assist . That was nice to hear as I felt I had become a troublemaker to the Telford midwives holding on till 42+2 weeks. They didn't know what to do with me.
Well, actually I'm not pregnant (yet) and my boy is 2.5 but the reality is that this policy sort of plays on the fact that people are generally too busy, tired, worried that the hospital will think they are troublemakers to complain. Hope your are having fun abroad!
ed at this!
