My dd, who's nine, told me today that her teacher regularly shows pupils work to the whole class to scorn it.

The other day she took the picture a boy had done of the school trip and said, furiously, 'Do you really call this a picture of our school trip?' DD said he's not the best drawer but the picture was OK. Then she threw it on the floor.

DD said the boy went very red and quiet (he's a well behaved boy) and the class laughed.

I think this must have been so traumatic for him. I can't believe she can be such a bully and feel compelled to do something. But what? Should I interfere? It wasn't even my child but I don't think I can do NOTHING about this.

What, if anything, would you do?

Do you know his parents?

No TFM I don't. I wondered about having a chat with them but I really don't recognise his name at all. It's a big school with three classes per year group.

I guess I could try to find out.

I would ask around the other parents - see if they have similar stories. Don't be direct, just ask what their dcs have to say about the teacher, who is clearly a vicious loon.

Then slap approach the Head? Or do youhave a class rep for the PTA?

I would speak to the boy's parents to see if they want to take the matter further and I would encourage my daughter to tell me anything this crappy sounding teacher does to humiliate her.

I would also talk to other parents in the playground to see what they have heard. If enough parents have concerns, then a group letter to the Headteacher would be in order.

Talk to the headteacher - this teacher's behaviour is bound to impact on other children in the class, even if it's not aimed directly at them. It's bullying and you don't want your daughter to be next in line.

I would definitely not be happy.

As it is not your child directly involved I am not 100% sure on course of action. Although you could bring it up simply as it has concerned your DD, so she is indirectly invlved anyway.

I think I would bypass the teacher though and go to a head of year/key stage if possible and express my concerns.

Good ideas.

What an example to set the other kids..that its ok to laugh with scorn and bully someone. What a cow. I'd be gathering lots of evidence and complaining to the HEad.

I cannot quite believe that a teacher would do this. If really true I am I would go to the teacher directly to hear her side of the story. Yes, I would definatly do something about it. It's bullying of pupils and pupils obviously learn from their teachers, so....

read your post but not rest of thread so I migh repeat

This is shocking! you need to see the head and if you get no joy there go to ofsted! This is bullying and they cant protect themselves from it just because it wasnt your child this time doesnt mean it wont be next time! and I would be concerned he was telling you about that boy because her was too embarased to tell you about an incident invoving him

That sounds awful! You really should talk to the head. How sad for that little boy.

Having said that, I remember my primary teacher threw a chair across the classroom when our work wasn't good enough...

Fairy I couldn't believe it either but dd assures me it's true and she's very honest. I let her read my OP to make sure it was absolutely accurate and she's very clear that it is.

I was scorned and bullied in front of the whole class at secondary school by the maths teacher. I would still happily stick a knife in the bast*rd.

I had a teacher like that and she put me of school for life, i would serusly think of going in to talk to the head on your own or with other parents to complain or even go as far removing your dd from that school if the said teacher is doing it to your dd

She's not doing it to my dd elloise which makes it almost less easy to know how to proceed. But, reluctantly, I feel I have to do something. I will start by talking to a couple of other mums and go from there.

shitemum sorry to hear that.
My dh also had a horrible tale of being humiliated by his teacher and he carried it around with him for years.

Oh goodness, how hideous .
Yes I am afraid you def need to do something. Approaching other parents (in a non-hysterical way) to gain an insight is a good start. Sorry this is on you shoulders. It should not be happening though. Dreadful.

That is awful. A good teacher would not do this to thier pupils. I would speak to the boys parewnts and the Head.

It is something that a teacher just shouldn't do-ever. I would speak to her, tell her that your DD found it upsetting and why. If you don't get anywhere then see the Head.

Hi,
(irregular Mumsnet user popping in here) -
I just wanted to add that it isn't only the child who is yelled at or humiliated who suffers in these situations. It's almost as hard on the other kids, too, and can have almost the same long-term effects even if it didn't happen to you personally. Teachers like this are very, very destructive. She's terrifying all the other kids (as well as encouraging bullying among any of the others who are so inclined, as well).
The kids all need their parents and other teachers at the school to pull together and make this stop. It's a bad message for your daughter that she has to stay in a situation where stuff like this is going on and could happen to her even if it hasn't yet. Sometimes the psychological effects are the worst, sometimes even worse than physical abuse can be.
Just my two cents,
Diana

"She's not doing it to my dd elloise which makes it almost less easy to know how to proceed."

I guess what I mean is definitely don't let that stop you. Don't hesitate because she "isn't doing something to my child." She is doing something to your child. (It didn't sound like you were going to hesitate, I'm just clarifying). It is abuse, and it is very damaging to children to watch other children being abused! It causes fear, it sets the children against each other, it completely ruins an educational environment when children are sitting wondering who the next victim will be.

Wise words Di. I have talked to one mum and I'm hoping to talk to the head tomorrow. My dd is desperate that I don't make it known that she said this so I will have to ask the head to see me in confidence and to act discreetly.

agree with Diana. And am glad you're going to talk to the Head - I would not if this was me, talk to other parents because this just causes gossip and could possibly if the teacher gets wind of it, allow her to present you as a gossiper and troublemaker. Just go to the Head as you plan to do and go from there. And if no joy, I'd go on to the governors, and Ofsted, if necessary - but hopefully it won't be.

The teacher sounds either utterly awful, or having some sort of breakdown! Either way, she wants stopping

Good luck, and good for you to be taking this on and not just turning a blind eye - manly pat on the back from me!

I always wondered where one of my primary school teachers ended up!I had one like this used to make fun of the way I spoke in front of the whole class amongst other things.
One awful boy stuck a compass in my head, her response
don't be a snitch
it goes on

what Diana said- bad for ALL the children in the class. write down what your dd said and date it. Do the same with any further stuff, being careful not to ask leading questions, be very neutral. As HG says, be careflof seeming to gossip. But speak to the head, show dd that you don't have to suffer in silence. good luck!

I had a teacher like that. I am dyspraxic so had a lot of trouble with reveresing letters and so on. He once made me go to the front of the rooma and draw lines of 9, p, d and b on the blackboard. Needless to say I couldn't get them right and he kept me up there in front of the whole class telling me I was stupid. (I saw him last week and took great pleasure in telling him exactly who successful I now am LOL)

Some teachers are power crazed b*stards who should never have entered the profession. Please mention your concerns its a horrible way to treat a child

Yes, you edfinitely need to see the head and ALSO you need to make it clear that your dd is very anxious about not being found out.. I think that speaks volumes for the teacher. she is frightened of being bullied by the teacher for speaking out.

I was humiliated a number of times in middle/junior school by one teacher and it ruined, I mean ruined my confidence. I truly believe all my confidence issues stem back that to teacher.

I then went on to secondry school where I had one prticular teacher take a dislike for me and systematically bully me for over a year to the point where I used to walk into his lesson and he would tell me to get out, straight away. He killed himself though and as a grown up recognise he had other issues. but I can assure you that he was trying to stop me sitting my exams and if he hadn't killed himself (which led to us having a supply teacher) he would have ruined my chance of a career. He was a maths teacher btw.

Sorry, I've rambled. raw nerve. Everytime I hear about bullying teachers I get so mad.. they can really fuck up lives and they often get away with it.

I would remove my child from the class straight away & make an appointment with the head.

What is it with maths teachers?

my maths teacher in primary yanked me out of my chair by my collar and shook me for no reason. Ghastly individual he was. Except I told my mum who went in and had words, and stood in front of him and grabbed his collar and shook it and said "how does that feel!" and she said he just stood there like a naughty school boy and didn't say a word he never did it again though.

And my maths teacher in secondary had real issues although it later transpired that her husband was a paedophile and had been abusing their children and went to jail.

We only have OP's DD's word for what happened and how it went down, thru adult eyes it might seem quite different.

What if the teacher didn't single the boy out, but was holding up a random selection of work for the class to look at?
What if the drawing really was bad and below the boy's ability, what if the teacher said something slightly different than the words quoted, or in an exasperated rather than scornful tone?
What if she told the class off roundly for tittering at the lad?
What if she was throwing everything (good or bad drawings on the floor each time?

I think I would want to confirm the story or type of behaviour before getting outraged.

I dont think it matters one bit that this didn't happen to your DD.
She is present when this teacher behaves in this way. Any child in the class could be upset by it and the parents of every child in the class have the right to speak to the HT and say that this is not acceptable.

"What if she was throwing everything (good or bad drawings on the floor each time?
"

erm.. she shouldn't be throwing any drawings on the floor.

I too was bullied and humiliated by a teacher at primary school so this has hit a nerve with me too.

I was particularly vulnerable at the time, I was 10 years old and my Dad had just died. I never told my Mum about it because she had enough on her plate trying to figure out how to bring up 3 kids alone and pay the mortgage on a part-time cleaner's wage. I just had to try and deal with it on my own.

I would have loved someone to stand up for me and put an end to it. The damage these people do to a child's confidence is immeasurable.

Diana W's comments have hit the nail on the head.

this brings back so many memories of being humiliated in exactly the same way by a french teacher when i was eleven. I vowed not to make any effort in his lesons after that and sat at the back taking no part in the class. i must have had some natural ability as i managed to come 4th in the class in the end of year exam, and he just made a nasty snide comment in my report. one of my biggest regrets is not being able to speek a language and i hold this moron directly responsible. dont let your dd be affected by this incident. the teacher must not be allowed to get away with undermining childrens confidence in this way.

I wouldn't want my DC whitnessing this kind of behaviour, so I'd bring it up with the head. I'd also looking to have my Dc taken out of that class.

There is a teacher in the secondary school where I work like this. She teaches Art and regularly scorns pupil's work in front of the entire class, she also calls them things such as "lazy" and "spoilt brat". Have a look at my blog under Confessions of a Learning Support Assistant.

Although her "methods" are well known, nothing is done about it. There is little I can do without suffering repercussions myself. But I would advise that you have a word with other parents as they may have similar issues. Then talk to the Head armed with a list of parents and their objections too. Parents do have power and if more parents spoke out, more would be done.

sounds like that teacher has fallen into an 80's time warp. i remember teachers doing exactly the same thing when i was at school but i thought it was one of thsoe things which teachers can no longer get away with.

Thanks for all your posts and particularly to those of you who remember being humiliated at school by teachers in a similar way.

I told the class rep today. Quite by chance she happened to have with her the boy who was the victim of this behaviour as he was going with her ds for a play date. I will approach the head too.

My DH had some terrible teachers at his rough all boys comp in Birmingham in the seventies and he nurses some painful memories. His brother, a very bright aspy techy type, was very, very badly bullied by teachers and pupils alike. It has taken a big chunk out of his life and really shaped his relationships.

Let's put it this way - I am nearly 47 and i still remember an incident in the first grade in which another child was humiliated by the teacher. It had nothing to do with me, and I was in no danger of this teacher, she loved me and I did well in school. I still remember VIVIDLY just what she said to a little girl who was having trouble reading, I remember the girl's name and how she cried, I've wondered many times since then what became of her later.
Other children in the room can definitely be severely affected by an abusive teacher even when it isn't directed at them personally.

Having gone to school in the 60's and 70's, it makes me sad to hear someone say "I thought that was an 80's thing!" Wow, it's a shame how little some things change.

Well done for doing something about it. This teacher needs to find another career tbh.

I think the fact that it is not happening to your DD makes it easier for you to approach the head tbh. You can't be accused of being in any way precious or over-protective of your DD iyswim.

God it makes me sick to hear that Spidermama

My ds1 reguarly has the piss taken out of him in 1st and 2nd year at high school by his CDT teacher. Used to make animal noises (to do with our surname) and make fun of his hair etc. Also called ds1's pal who is Pakistani chocolate boy

My ds never told me about it till after he left his class as he was afraid it would make the teacher do worse stuff

Ds2 is in 1st year and thankfully doesn't have him but have told him he MUST tell me if anything happens and i will sort it out.

Am terrified about the dd's starting school as the primary school the ds's went to has it's fair share of sadistic twatty teachers

You are doing the right thing. Let us know how you get on?

I have mentioned this to the class rep now. Today I phoned to talk to the head but he was about to leave to go to London and his secretary suggested I email. Well I just started to email but actually I'd rather talk to him over the 'phone or face to face because it's a very serious and delicate issue.

Perhaps I'll email words to that effect and ask to set up an appointment to call or visit next week.

I think you should see him face to face.

People are much easier to ignore over phone or email.

DH (now very ancient ) recalls having one his drawings held up to ridicule by a primary teacher. Makes me thinking about it - poor little boy

This is shocking. I hate the idea of children being discouraged in this way, particularly over something creative
Good luck Spidermama.

Do you know what was on the picture? My guess is a giant willy or something. No teacher these days would belittle a child's work like that...

DH is 35 and remembers vividly at school at the age of 6, a picture he had drawn, beautifully shaded and coloured in, being held up and ridiculed and then ripped up by the teacher. it started a long slide down at school, and he hated it. so it is so very important to knock this sort of thing on the head immediately. it is totally inappropriate, even if the story has been a bit exaggerated, holding up and throwing pictures and taking the p*ss out of children is not ever ,ever acceptable in teh classroom.

duchesse I only wish that were the case. dd says it was an ordinary, unremarkable picture from a quiet and well behaved boy. I too wondered if perhaps it was a rebellious squiggle or a rude picture but sadly this was not the case.

It's also not the first time she has done it.

The thing is that unless this teacher is about 70 years old, they will have been extremely well trained in differentiation and inclusiveness. Belittling even bullying a child to that extent these days is career suicide. What may have happened to we oldies in the 60s/ 70s is really not the same as what happens now.

lulu for your dh.
My dh had an incident whereby he broke a pen and got ink on his hands. The teacher barked at him to go and wash it off then when dh returned the whole class chanted "Inky Stinky <DH's surnamen>"

The teacher was leading it. He'd planned it. DH remembers in slow motion looking round to see that even good friends of his were joining in.

These things stay with you.

duchesse, this teacher might well be an abberration. i am sure spidermama knows her DD well enough to know if she would make this up.. and for what gain?

cross-post lulu
was typing while OP's post went up...

s'ok

Diana, I'm about your age and I too have very vivid, visual memories- ours was a semi rural home counties all-white school, one year we had a Black boy join the school, looking back I guess he was African but no one knew, anyway this teacher(who was known to be strict) completely bawled him out over some very minor incident, dragged him to the front of the class by his arm and swung him round, hitting him with her other hand. I remember feeling so strongly that there was something seriously wrong, but had no language to express what it was. And never told my parents. So true that these things have a lasting impact. Strangely, the boy wasn't in our class the following year, wonder what happened to him.

It's really true these things stay with you. Practically everybody has some school humiliation story, things that just seem ridiculous years later but you know they really cut deeply at the time.

Spidermama, you're doing a good thing also showing your daughter that if somebody else is being mistreated, we ought to speak up about it, not just say "Well thank goodness it wasn't me."

Duchesse the teacher who called my ds1 and his pal names and verbally abused others too was younger than me.
There will always be shite teachers just as in every profession.

I'd go directly to the teacher who said that, and say "I've been hearing in the playground about x's picture - could you tell me what happened because I may be hearing Chinese whispers" - and let her damn herself. Watch body language, eye flicker etc. Then let her know you are going to talk to the Head.
This doesn't sound like a good teacher having a bad moment; but, please, most of us work really hard to be fair and honest with the pupils. I try to be 'fairest of them all' - not the evil Queen!!

catok I like this idea but it would identify my dd as the whistleblower and I have promised her I won't. She's already very scared and I don't want her to think twice before sharing this kind of thing with me. I'm really glad she felt she could come to me and don't want to betray her.

I agree this is not "a good teacher having a bad moment" - this was extreme. Good teachers having bad moments might do lots of things, lose their temper and shout or even lose their temper and even hit someone - and to me, although it is a bad thing, I would probably not condemn the person, I have certainly lost my temper with children and teaching is very demanding!

But that is different from teachers who show signs of true sadism. When a teacher is setting out to humiliate a child - a teacher who openly mocks a child's work, for instance, especially in front of the class - this is someone who shouldn't be teaching, IMO. She is either seriously cruel and malicious or else she is so burnt out that she has really lost it.

If there was really nothing remotely ruse on the poor boy's sheet. then she is a psycho who should not be near children...

* rude *

How about speaking to the little boy's mother and telling her what happened (he may not have).

Something should be done about it definitely. This person should not be a teacher. Haven't read the thread so don't want to repeat a lot of good advice but do tell the dc's parents and I think a strong letter to the head is in order. Thing is this is affecting negatively every dc in the class, not just the particular dc who is on the receiving end of this treatment, so all dp in the class should have an interest in seeing the back of this teacher.

How awful for that little boy! Has your dd mentioned any other incidents SM? I think you are doing the right thing by approaching the head, but I would probably try and speak to the parents as well.
Another 80's pupil here and I still get shudders from thinking about my primary maths teacher who used to humiliate me and throw the board rubber at my head every friday without fail because I would be bottom at the mental arthimetic test

I talked to the head today. To his credit he listened but there's a nmajor sticking point which prevents strategy agreement.

I made it clear this was in confidence and that it's important that my dd is no identified as the whistle blower. She's been very axious about this because a) she has to be in the class with this woman for over half a term more and b)she will feel betrayed and will be unwilling, in future, to open up to me.

In that case, he said, could he identify me. I said of course not because she'd be implicated and identified by association.

He said he didn't feel it would be fair to approach the teacher without saying from whom the allegation has come.

I said I wasn't quite sure why he felt it important and why he didn't seem to respect the need for confidentiality when it came to my dd.

He said something about his concerns that her teaching union may demand to know.

Anyway, it was a perfectly amicable, pragmatic chat we had and we ended it by both agreeing we needed to take further advice. I said that perhaps I'd find out if -mumsnet Ofsted had advice on the matter.

What do you think?

Ingles I don't want to go to the parents of the boy as I don't want word to spread around parents before the teacher is given a chance to check herself and have a think and possibly sort herself out. Also she needs to be made aware of the allegations so she can put her side.

hmmm... well I think I'd allow myself to be named as the source then. I think if the head is aware it would be very difficult for the teacher to bully your daughter in any way.
I do completely empathise with you wanting to protect your dd, but in the long term it surely has to be for the best.

well I think he could and should still tackle it by saying he has been approached by a concerned parent/ concerned parents and feels they need to have a serious talk about this.

if he isn't going to do that there has to be some type of monitoring/control going on in that classroom

Ingles I have promised my dd that I won't do that.

Then I'm sorry but I think you probably shouldn't have mentioned it. I kind of agree with the head you can't make an accusation and then not back it up. This is a teachers career we are talking about after all.
Don't get me wrong I do sympathise but in any situation like this the full facts need to be known.

Hmmm. Shouldn't have mentioned it eh? I feel that the emphasis of protection should be on the child and not on the teacher. I don't actually see how it helps for the parent to be identified and what the teacher would do with the information particularly as the alleged incident wasn't even directed at the person who has come forward.

I felt a duty to report unacceptable behaviour from a woman in charge of 30+ nine year olds day after day.

What should I say to my dd then next time she comes home reporting an agressive incident of public humiliation against one of her peers. Perhaps I should put my hands over my ears and go 'lalalalalalala I can't hear you?'

Phone the child's parent and inform them of what your child has reported.

Spidermama, I think you are going to have to talk to the parents of the boy concerned. I appreciate your reasons for not doing so, but (a) if they need someone who is prepared to be identified, and you aren't, then it will have to be someone else, and (b) if the head will tell the teacher in question that there's been a complaint about this incident without identifying you then she is very likely to assume it's from the boy and his parents and it seems only fair that they should know about it in case of any repercussions.

Agree with portandlemon

If it happened as described, then that woman shouldn't be in teaching, at least for the moment. She's disregarding every rule in the book and there is no excuse for it - stress, burnout, whatever, she should be taking stress leave, not bullying children.

I'm always astonished by how many lunatics still are able to get into a classroom (not counting the pupils, obv). How on earth do these people get through the training?

Good point Port and Lemon. I didn't think of that.
As it happens I met the Head again today and we chatted about it. I've decided I'll go and chat to the teacher myself and give her a chance to give her side.

From my pov all I really want is to get her to think about it and realise that she can't carry on like this in a vacuum. I want her to realise it was bad behaviour and have a word with herself as it were.

I will let her know I've raised my concerns with the head too.

Oh yippee! What fun. Now I just want to get the whole thing over with so I can let it drop knowing I've done what I can.

Well done Spidermana, but would that not break your promise to your dd?

spidermama
sorry

spidermama it sounds like you need a new head teacher. It is amazing that he wouldn't have a chat with one of his staff to find out what had happened. He doesn't need to names.
If a child behaved as you described they would be called a bully. In my eyes its no different.

I once saw a new teacher rip a page out of a childs book and screw it up because he has done it wrong. The child was crushed but this was a new teacher and I didn't want to add pressure to her by bringing it up myself as I helped in her class twice a week and didn't want her feeling that I was watching her every move. So I had a word with the head, who is very approachable and has known me a lot longer and she had a quiet word and it was sorted.

Spidermama,.. Approaching the teacher sounds like a good way to go about this. She will however know it comes from your daughter so surely breaks your promise. I don't think this is a bad thing though, as you say you can't do nothing. Difficult one, Hope it goes well x

You can anonymously report any ol' rubbish (or truths even) to social services or RSPCA or other protection charity and they will go and talk to the person to hear their side of the story, keeping your anonymity 100%. So I can't see why head is insisting that you put the allegations direct to the teacher, at end of the day head can only do disciplinary action on the basis of evidence, not anon. complaints, so teacher isn't that threatened.

But a chat with the head might get teacher to rethink how the things she does are seen by the children. Surely head can figure all that out for himself??

Alternatively, you could tell head you're willing to talk to teacher direct, but not before the last week of term, and she mustn't be informed about you or the allgations until then (although I suspect OP's dd wouldn't like this solution, either... nobody likes a 'grass').