My son is bilingual norwegian english. He is born in London, we have now lived in Norway a month and a half, and he is racing ahead in his norwegian reading book. We are reading English and Norwegian daily. And when we read Norwegian I have him translate it to English to ensure he understands the meaning and not just read out the words.

He has ofcourse now discovered that you cant translate word by word, as that does not make sense. But, I am at loss as he is asking me why this is so gramatically, and he is concerned with all the prepositions and their role in both languages. I just cant explain!

Can anybody guide me?

Hmmm, I think what I'd say to my 6-year-old when he works this out is:

Words don't map one-to-one between languages. There are subtle differences. The languages all evolved separately, and make different distinctions.

It could be worse, there's a language where, in order to make any statement, you have to make clear how you know whatever you're staying - did you see it/experience it directly? Or did someone tell you about it?

At least Norwegian is an Indo-European language, so it has roots in common with English. (Finnish doesn't.)

QS, do you speak Norwegian yourself?

(I'm not a linguist, but I do like languages, and take an interest.)

Notquite, yes, I am Norwegian, but have lived in London for 15 years! And yes, I see what you mean, at least the languages are fairly similar, would be harder if it was English and Japanese....

I would maybe just let him read without translating. As he gets older he'll learn that each language just is the way it is and he'll be given explanations of grammar at school.
I would concentrate on his enjoyment of reading and not turn it into an exercise.

My DDs are bilingual in Spanish but neither are reading yet so feel free to ignore me!

Maybe re-post this in the Bilingual topic?

Ah, I'd assumed you weren't Norwegian - don't make him translate. If you want confirmation he's understanding, discuss the book with him in Norwegian?

I guess there's an advantage to getting him to translate, though - the people I've known who've been bilingual from very early didn't seem to have the two languages connected. I learned my second language as an adult, so I have the meanings connected up across the languages, at least.

I think I have to ask for translation for now. For example:
hunden leker med katten the dog plays with the cat
came out as the dog likes the cat. Presumably because leker looks more similar to likes than to plays.

NQC - why would it matter if the two languages were 'not connected'? And what do you mean?

Discussing the book in it's language or in the other language is good.

I think there is a thread about this somewhere.

rather than translation, do concept checking questions, same as they do at school, that way he doesn't have to access different part of brain, (vague memories of studies come drifting back here but too far away to be of any help)

rather than translation, do concept checking questions, same as they do at school, that way he doesn't have to access different part of brain, (vague memories of studies come drifting back here but too far away to be of any help)

oops

That is a good idea too.

I think you are over-complicating thngs for him by making him translate. Translation is a separate skill, and a complex one at that, and he is going to focus translating instead of learning to read and accepting the way a language "is", as shitemum says.

I think he will get confused this way. I agree that the way forward is to go paragraph by paragraph and discuss as you go in the language that the text is written.

My dd speaks Spanish/english/catalan and is just about ready to start learning to read. I want to start her on English before she is taught Catalan at school. I will leave that language to her teachers.

I see that it can be confusing. I shall ask the teacher what other parents of bilingual children do.

I have two bilingual children- English/Swedish. We live in the UK, but stay with my parents in Sweden in the summer holidays.

Dd (11) is the more proficient bilingual of the two. When she first learned to read at infants school, I did one reading book in Swedish with her for every two in English. I didn't make her translate (unless occasionally, as a party trick), but discussed the book with her in the appropriate language. Something like what Morocco suggested; checking that they've understood in the way you would do with a monolingual.

Ds (7) is a very reluctant reader in either language and his Swedish is also less good, so he is much more likely to be deceived by "false friends" in the way you describe.

Agree translation is not a good idea. I learnt to read simultaneously in english and German, but nobody really taught me, and nobody knew I could translate until they could me reading a Gm book out loud to one of my English friends (in English).

Translation is a separate skill -- if you suspect he's misunderstanding the Norwegian, then check his understanding and explain in Norwegian if necessary. I'd let each language develop independently -- he will make the connections in his own time. You don't really need to explain all the details explicitly -- just say that languages behave differently and you can't always compare things directly.

The main thing to watch out for is mathematical or other abstract concepts that are expressed differently in each language -- eg in Gm you say 'five and twenty' rather than 'twenty five' -- for ages I had terrible trouble reading numbers back to front as I had to mentally work out which language I was in every time I encountered a number. And telling the time was even worse -- in Gm 'half six' means 'five thirty' -- aaargh. In cases like that you need to teach in whichever language he will be going to school in, and try to minimise the influence of the other language -- I was taught to tell the time simultaneously in two languages, which was really not a good idea.

I'd say in Scandinavian languages, the prepositions are a far bigger problem. Unlike the half six or the zwei-und-zwanzig thing, these aren't something that you can explain by a rule; each one has to be understood intuitively.

But that's why it makes no sense to translate them -- the child needs to develop an intuitive feel for the way each language works. Translation is going to delay that, not speed it up.

And I was old enough to understand the reasoning behind the numbers and time thing, but it still didn't stop me getting confused, because when you're really bilingual you're often not consciously aware of which language you're functioning in.

Agree with no translating. Dd3, who is 6, is learning to read in English with me and as a result is figuring out German for herself.

my older kids have in three languages two perect bilingual & third coming along - translation not a problem. If you understand the words then the thought is there and it can be expressed in another format - iyswim. I often say how do you say that or we play colours, animals in one lang to the other.

itwasntme - how are you going to teach your DD to read? Will you use the jolly phonics books or just sort of wing it?
DD1 is 4.7 yo and wants to read. We just sort of look at alphabet books, trace the shapes of the letters with our fingers and she picks out the letters she knows from pages of story books but other than that I am not sure how to proceed!

GregorSamsa on Thu 08-May-08 09:04:44
"But that's why it makes no sense to translate them -- the child needs to develop an intuitive feel for the way each language works. Translation is going to delay that, not speed it up."

Absolutely. The one thing that is going to help is as much exposure as possible in both languages. Lots of talking, lots of reading to each other.

Though I have also found it useful to talk about languages from time to time, in a general interested sort of way, 'have you noticed how we say this in English but in Swedish we'd do something totally different'.

Thank you all. I am glad to see so many thoughts.

I shall stop the translation and discuss what he reads instead to see if he has understood. We have a vocabulary word game that we do. Each morning in the car (20 minute journey) to school, we choose a topic, such as clothes, sports, furniture, etc, and discuss what the things are called in each language. It is fun, and a way of getting his vocabulary up and understanding up. He find that it helps him with every day conversation in school when he knows what things are called. I think I shall keep that going, alongside. He reads one book in English per day, and a few pages of Norwegian. He also has a fun cartoon like smurf book that gives the names of many different things in both English and Norwegian, and he enjoys that too.

But I must say, it his he who has noticed the prepositions, and querying their role in the Norwegian language. But I guess, it is true he needs to learn it intuitively, and he can only do that when the language comes naturally, and not in relation to English.