The kids probably looked ok at the open day because it was break from the relentless tedium and boredonm of their usual .... one teacher droning on about atlantis or norse myths with no books, pictures, or any other visual or aural aid or stimulation. All they use is the teacher telling the stories (as truth, they teach all these things as truth to the children, I forgot that. Our daughter's teacher said that everything she told them wa true, myth taught as reality....to ten eleven yr olds) That really bothers me, because that is indoctrination nas far as i'm concerned, and some of Steiner is truly truly mad, (and racist)

They won't answer your questions about anthroposophy, you know that don't you grin]?
They are very very well practised liars.
But lying is ok , because they might save your child by guiding them towards their next reincarnation.....

Yeah, well, we were never allowed to see aclass in session, and we were there three years.

Maria's point about trying it out and moving if it isn't right, is not as simple as it seems; we had to do that, and so did alot of people i know; the kids are way behind their age group, often dissterously. They are leaving what they know, their friends etc. no, it's not easy plumping them back into mainstream.
Having said that, our three have done it, survived, and are thriving. They're so relieved to be out.

Smiling and laughter.... not much of that atall at Steiner; no jokes; it's not spiritual, emotions aren't spiritual either.

And did you notice the way they move and walk, a sort of contained gliding? Spiritual, getting ready for the next epoch, on their journey.
They felt sorry for us, stuck here in this world for ever, no gnomes, fairies, or angels.....

Oh dearie me..Thanks Northern, guess i need to look into this all a bit more- we visited on an open day and then a guided tour and they told my friend that visits weren't possible at other times than these.. however we did see several classes in session all seemed well although I have to say we didn't actually observe the teachers teaching, they were more showing us the kids work.. and there was a distinct lack of laughter/joking.. I seemed to be the only one making light of things ( giggling when the kids kept dropping their sticks in the Eurythmy class!) I guess what I need to do is just ask someone directly about Anthroposophy if I go back with my 2 year old to the toddler groupor need to find some folk who know this actual school.. oh dear it all looked so promising!

Maria, I agree with much of what you've said; I differ in that you think having a barney about the outrageous stuff and then leaving it is ok, because the ouitrageous stuff is being used on the kids... temperaments for instance, and in outr case, a choice made about our daughter which singled her out in a very obvious way, and deeply upset her, which it slowly dawned on me was because she is dark.
Steiner's race beliefs are dodgy to put it mildly, and some teachers take ghis spiritual hierarchy and evolutionary ideas too far. As these ideas are all there in his writing, many in compulsory reading for teacher training, how on earth is anyone to intuit who might use them in the classroom?

The teachers always said to us, "Oh, we only take what we want from steiner2, and the old favoourite " Steiner is difficult"

Tingaling, it depends on whether you feel subtle indoctrination is harmful. I think the St Michael songs and "worship" are over the top. I find the advent spiral creepy, sinister and the most occult of the ceremonies. Eurythmy is fairly weird, and when done by real top class eurythmists, I really felt they were communicating with another world they were so strange. Creeped out.

Someone rang me last week in a real state. She'd found my email address on a website, and I gave her my number. Her 5 year old had been told his granny wasn't dead, but had reincarnated and come back as someone else.This family were dark, in a rural Steiner school, and were ostracised from the start. Her child came home bruised and scratched, but nothing was done. She's pulled her child out, but the community is shunning her. I havce heard this story so often.

Tingaling, we sent our kids to steiner school for 2/3 years because we were fed up with the state system; the homework, photocopied junk for sats, no art, just coloured in papery scraps as an after thought.
We sent them to Steiner school for what it wasn't; they sold themselves in that way too. I still have the flyer from one of their -recruiting- open days, which says" less than five miles away is a school with no tests, lots of art, in beautiful surroundings..." etc etc. What it failed to put was that it is entirely based on Stein er's spiritual science, anthroposophy. They completely sold us a lie, totally and completely.
The schools probably do vary a bit, I wil say that. And not all the staff are full blown anthroposophists. But believe me it is based on anthroposophy, anbd the teachers will ahve been trained to use anthroposophy for all the chices and decisions abouit the kids.

Anthroposophy is essential and at the very core of all Steiner schools; they take it extremely seriously.

This is just a tiny bit from a BA course website in Steiner teacher training:

"These studies aim to provide a grounding in the general principles and capacities you will need in a career as a Steiner Waldorf Teacher. The background ideas of philosophy and anthroposophy are introduced which are fundamental to Waldorf Education
As a student, you would spend three years studying modules on:
Philosophy & Anthroposophy
The focus of the study in this respect will be the teacher's own self-knowledge and development. At significant points comparisons will be made across a spectrum of views about human nature and ideas about evolution. Ideas derived from anthroposophy will also be related to contemporary social issues,


The Image of the Human Being derived from Anthroposophy
These modules consider the Image of the Human Being derived from Anthroposophy and the way it informs the Steiner Waldorf curriculum and methodology. The module has as its focus sessions on Gymnastics and Games together with Eurythmy, a movement art embodying ‘visible music and visible speech’."

As a parent obviously you don't have to take on board their whacky beliefs, but the teachers will be using them when dealing with your kids, so you have to decide if that's what you want for your kids really.

When you visited, I have no doubt that they were the most lovely people, welcoming and gorgeous; was it on a pre arranged visit? Was it an open day? Were you allowed to see a class in session? Are you able to pop back and see a normal school day? Hmm, I wonder...

Maybe i should be grateful for what I've got (good school, rough area).. just hate seeing her stressed over homework aged 5 !!

S'ok Tingaling - just wondered if she'd ever been. Don't THINK she'd ever really send her kids there but was interested in a report!

Maria 33- absolutely!! Just a shame not everyone has that choice, in some areas its the crap state school or home ed.

Oh right, sorry,BB I get the Miliec thing now, duh

Sorry bossybritches but I only just got on here! What is Milliec?
There was no mention of Anthroposophy although I did see a little poster for a meeting/talk about it in the reception bit it seemed aimed at adults.. have a brief idea of the philosophies and none of it seemed that outrageous, karma, reincarnation etc not what I believe but found in other respectable religions. Have also heard mutterings of racism in Steiner philosophy but I saw two teachers of Asian/african origin so I can't imagine that's a problem there.
I'm really scared off by the raging debate I have stumbled across on the internet and I can't really see who everyone is and what their motivations are so I'm not sure who to beleive?? What I've not found yet is any anecdotal evidence of situations in which the spiritual/pagan "rituals" (if they are that) have been harmful to children..
Just feel a bit suspicious now that the guide tour had a set schedule, it was written down which classes we would be observing..

There are different Steiner schools and different systems that suit different kids. Dd1 moved from our local state school and has had a blast. She is interested and involved in what she learns, she loves the singing, the painting, the knitting, the early modern languages, the story-telling, the drama and the more religious aspects seem to pass her by.. We'd rather not bringtoo much school home and we enjoy normal levels of tv, computer games, plastic etc etc. This has never been a problem for her.

In contrast, however, it really isn't suiting ds1 -different teachers, different type of child and we're moving him to a state school in Sept. That doesn't take away from dd1's experience - jury's still out on what we'll do with dd2.

Having spent nearly 3 years in a Steiner School, I can completely understand where northern, barking and the rest are coming from (there certainly are some outrageous things said and believed in Steiner schools, but, at ours there is often room to disagree and even have the odd barney ) Despite the problems, IMO it does seem to really work for some kids. - and let's face it - KS1 really doesn't work for some kids.

I honestly believe that the only way to know whether a school is right for your child is to follow your instincts and to try. If it doesn't work out, you can always change your mind. Nothing is set in stone - no school will have all the answers.

Hope this helps.

after what ive read on here i wouldnt touch them with a bargepole.

Tingaling this thread was started back in April

Did you ever go & visit Milliec??

Are you comfortable with the anthrosophical philosophies, then? Or didn't they discuss those?

Oh Help! I've been to look round our local Steiner twice now and loved it but now my head is buzzing with conspiracies and paranoia.. none of the teachers I met seemed sinister, I didn't like all of them but some were absolutely lovely and to me seemed perfectly straightforward and down to earth and I cannot believe they were masking some cultish secret- surely I'm not that bad a judge of character?? The kids were all fine, relaxed, messing about- normal!

Hi Milliec,

I would definitely go. It is worth looking at what they say they have to offer. You will see why so many people have been attracted to the candy cottage of Waldorf.

"Where does Lucifer come into the Steiner education."

I'll try to avoid Anthroposophical terms here as much as possible.

Lucifer and Ahriman are two spiritual beings that "influence" humans.

Lucifer influences us to think "I am an insignificant part of all that is - I'm one tiny drop in the ocean that is 'God'" - i.e. "God is external to me". With that "Luciferic" impulse (this is where most Waldorf teachers are stuck) you get people who have a sort of hive mentality (no reference to TheBee intended here )- people who cannot focus on or take responsibility for their own individuality. Think "Spiritualism".

Ahriman influences us to think "I AM GOD and GOD IS ME - I am the most important thing in the universe." - "God is internal to me". With the "Ahrimanic" impulse (this is where Anthroposophists would say critics of Waldorf are stuck) you have people who are individuals, who act on their own behalf and in their own interests. Think "Materialism".

Waldorf/Anthroposophy doesn't like the Ahrimanic impulse as much as they like the Luciferic impulse (Steiner warned they needed to be kept in balance with each other - and with the Christ impulse). They have declared war on Ahriman (who shows up in the form of individuality and, of course, technology). The "No TV" stuff came after Steiner (no TV's in Steiner's day) as part of this war on Ahriman. "No computers" was a natural extension of this. This "Waldorf" ideas have no basis in health or development for children - they are based in Walforf/Anthroposophy's battle with (imaginary) spirits. Kids, BTW, are often described among teachers as "Ahrmianic" or "Luciferic". Cool, huh?

Milliec - To get a clearer picture of steiner I wouldn't bother with the recuitment open day, tis a sham, a very beautiful sham but you won't learn about what goes on beyond the fairy grotto and craft stalls. I would try and turn up one morning and ask if you can look around and observe a lesson. They will almost certainly say no spouting forth the notion that the teachers work is sacred nonsense.

Steiner believed Lucifer as a bringer of light, (on the opposite pole to Ahriman, the force of darkness and materialism,) and is supposed to breathe into man the ability to aspire towards the spiritual realm. but Lucifer also represents pride and temptation I think, a kind of dazzlement.

Lucifer is a being of light who incarnated as a human being 3,000 years before Christ. Steiner says:

"It is revealed to the retrospective clairvoyant gaze that this was an actual human incarnation of the Luciferic Power. And this incarnation of Lucifer in humanity, which in a certain way has been achieved, was the origin of the widely extended ancient wisdom based on the Third Post-Atlantean civilization."

Rudolf Steiner The Ahrimanic Deception

Lucifer's polar opposite is a being called Ahriman, who will incarnate sometime in the third millenium A.D. (any time now). Steiner says:

"the Ahrimanic influence has been at work since the middle of the fifteenth century and will increase in strength until an actual incarnation of Ahriman takes place among Western humanity."

Some members of the Waldorf community believe that Ahriman is especially present in electronic media such as computers and the Internet.

BONKERS!!!!!!!

Where does Lucifer come into the Steiner education. I am sure I read somewhere that teachers must work with his influence in mind.

Perhaps I could go and ask at an open day "tell me about the influence of Lucifer on the education you provide"

Well, my youngest came out with something about when they went for walks they talked to the gnomes and spirits about entering the meadow and the copse, yes.

And the teachers, and camphill parents, used to move the felt gnomes around the gnome gardens, and the kids really believed they moved themselves, even like 10 yr olds.
my children were gobsmacked.
I go by the Germaine Greer school of thought that it's wrong to lie to little children
But they did believe in their Christmas stockings until they were about 7/8 I think, my older two. Youngest, very sussed. Cynical. Amused. Believes nothing. There's a Steiner reject for you! grin]

Was it you Northern who said the steiner teacher and children have to ask permission from the gnomes before they enter the woods?

SSSandy2
Steiner and his follwers believe gnomes goblins nature spirits etc are real.
There are gnomey gardens in the class rooms, and they are refered to alot.

Heerree'ss Rudi

""Gnomes are...unable to grasp how there can be anything but an ineffectual
relationship with [our] world." R. Steiner

Silly old gnomes not being able to grasp that eh?

"“There are beings that can be seen with clairvoyant vision at many spots in the depths of the earth especially places little touched by living growths, places, for instance, in a mine which have always been of a mineral nature. If you dig into the metallic or stony ground you find beings which manifest at first in remarkable fashion — it is as if something were to scatter us. They seem able to crouch close together in vast numbers, and when the earth is laid open they appear to burst asunder...The enlightened man knows nothing of them. People, however, who have preserved a certain nature-sense, i.e. the old clairvoyant forces which everyone once possessed...could tell you all sorts of things about such beings. Many names have been given to them, such as goblins, gnomes and so forth...Their nature prompts them to play all sorts of tricks on man....” [Rudolf Steiner, NATURE SPIRITS, Lectures from 1908-1924 (Rudolf Steiner Press, 1995

Don't do it, its a cult!
Try googling humanscaleeducation instead, you will find progressive schools without being recruited into an occult sect.

can you elaborate on the gnomes please? The rest is sort of what I'd expect

Sunnydelight - I am always on the look out for an 'alternetive' school for DS. Would you share where yours is and a bit about it ? (by email if you'd rather not here ).

Also, you'll be struck by the beauty of the school probably, if that sort of thing is your bag.
Lots of wood, pastel colours, artwork, (which is all identical, but makes a general pleasing asthetic inteiror wise)
Floaty silks, covering the fire exit signs( the kids aren't meant to be introduced to letter forms young, so the words FIRE EXIT aren't spiritual, and if you burn it's karmic anyway.)
The well kept calm beauty is very seductive if you're used to a leaking portacabin with bluetacked photocopies of superted on the wall.
The parents are expected to clean and garden, it's part of the deal, so it's usually fresh and clean.

The open days and things are quite good. there's always lovely food for one thing, but the "crafts" are very "Steiner"- tissue paper steiner stars and teasle hedge hogs, lots of felt and gnomes.

Ask about anthroposophy, why is it so important if they don't teach it.
Ask about
spirit worlds
reincarnation
clairvoyance
angels
atlantis
eurythmy
astral,cosmic and etheric forces
and GNOMES

That'll fox them!

Before we knew about the spirit incarnating stuff, we always had a "funny" feeling we couldn't quite pinpoint.
The kids all stared, a piercing midwich cuckoo stare (and we don't look that different, honest).
Also, everything is very"worthy2 and serious, not much laughter. It's not spritual

It's always worth a look. I went for a visit to one some years back when I was looking to move DS1. I practically ran out screaming, as did a couple of other people, but they then told me that they were on their way to look around another alternative school and invited me to go with them, and I ended up sending both my boys to the other school!

For what it's worth I have a lot of time for some of the Steiner philosophy - it just often seems to get lost in translation

I went on a tour of our local Steiner a couple of years ago. It was interesting. Definitely put me off big time (very batty woman led the tour), but I know some of the other parents on the tour did end up sending their kids there, so obviously had some appeal.

find out when the open tours are at your nearest one and go and ask some pertinent questions!

If you've got time on your hands and are curious, why not ?

Some people like test driving cars they have no intention of buying, others view showhomes on new housing developements.

Each to their own.

I am fascinated by the whole conversation around Steiner Schools. I had previously wondered about the possiblity of looking into sending my DD to one of the schools which isn't far away. However I think on the basis of what I've read and discovered I won't be touching one with a barge pole. I'd rather DD went to the local sink primary to be honest

On the other hand I have found the whole debate so interesting I am seriously tempted to go and have a look at one anyway. I'd regard it as a sort of research field trip to be honest! Is it worth the effort involved and what do you think I should ask ? Has anyone else done this?