Mumsnet Discussions - STEINER WALDORF SCHOOLS AND INSTITUTIONS #2

"No - actually explaining yourself would not be boring... but then watching you go through your song and dance to avoid answering questions is also somewhat entertaining. You're certainly not boring - just not worth engaging in a dialog sometimes."

I understand if it's too taxing for you.

"Answer truthfully and it will make for a good discussion. Continue to dodge the questions and it makes for good entertainment. Your call..."

And you will continue to attempt to define for us what is true and what is good.

"The central idea of Anthroposophy, again for me,"

"That's a DODGE... What was it for Steiner?"

Since I'm not Rudolf Steiner nor have ever claimed to be, unlike you, I don't know what the central idea of anthroposophy was for Steiner or if there even was one. It appears to me that the constitution of man, as a physical being, as an ensouled being, and as a spiritual being is the core component.

"You obviously have a very different (I might say "simple") idea of what Anthroposophy is - and what you claim it is, it's not (you should read up a bit)."

Say whatever you'd like. Am expressed opinion on your part conveys no obligation or duty on my part.

"You are certainly welcome to intepret Steiner's writings in any way that they make sense for you, or perhaps whichever way is most entertaining."

"Well, so far, YOUR interpretations have been the most entertaining. But nobody cares about my interpretation, nor yours."

Sweeping generalizations such as this one, which include everyone are not apt to be true.

"Steiner's works are available on the internet for everyone to read for themselves. Each person can certainly draw their own conclusions - right from the horse's mouth."

I think that's what I said-minus the horse reference.

"And that way each person can decide for themselves if Steiner's racism and anti-Semitism, and for that matter, everything that Steiner ever said, is important to them or not. It's up to me as a critic of Waldorf, to demonstrate where these things exist in Waldorf and how they manifest in the curriculum and daily activities of the children."

"It's up to me" implies some perceived responsibility on your part. Seems to me then, that in your view each person is free to determine meaning for themselves and act accordingly.

"BTW, I can anticipate your response, that you have never personally witnessed, or heard of anything like the things I discuss here... so there's no point in you making it each time - at least not for my benefit (perhaps there are one or two people here who may still believe it's possible)."

I believe that I said that I had not experienced what I would decribe as the gross lack of integrity that you have and you agreed.

"The only spiritual ladder that man may climb that I know of is as follows: Man, Christ, God."

"Huh?"

"Has there been any progress here in the Steiner thread? How is it all coming along?"

"Progress"? Why yes, several people have arrived here and went screaming for the hills. They're probably safer there.

Are you expecting this to move toward some sort of conclusion? hmm

Has there been any progress here in the Steiner thread? How is it all coming along?

"No, just trying not to bore you."

No - actually explaining yourself would not be boring... but then watching you go through your song and dance to avoid answering questions is also somewhat entertaining. You're certainly not boring - just not worth engaging in a dialog sometimes. Answer truthfully and it will make for a good discussion. Continue to dodge the questions and it makes for good entertainment. Your call... wink

"The central idea of Anthroposophy, again for me,"

That's a DODGE... What was it for Steiner?

"is that man is a threefold being whose consciousness evolves over time."

You obviously have a very different (I might say "simple") idea of what Anthroposophy is - and what you claim it is, it's not (you should read up a bit).

"You are certainly welcome to intepret Steiner's writings in any way that they make sense for you, or perhaps whichever way is most entertaining."

Well, so far, YOUR interpretations have been the most entertaining. grin

But nobody cares about my interpretation, nor yours. Steiner's works are available on the internet for everyone to read for themselves. Each person can certainly draw their own conclusions - right from the horse's mouth.

And that way each person can decide for themselves if Steiner's racism and anti-Semitism, and for that matter, everything that Steiner ever said, is important to them or not. It's up to me as a critic of Waldorf, to demonstrate where these things exist in Waldorf and how they manifest in the curriculum and daily activities of the children.

BTW, I can anticipate your response, that you have never personally witnessed, or heard of anything like the things I discuss here... so there's no point in you making it each time - at least not for my benefit (perhaps there are one or two people here who may still believe it's possible).

"The only spiritual ladder that man may climb that I know of is as follows: Man, Christ, God."

Huh? hmm

"isenhart, feel like answering the things about Steiner's belief system and reincarnation? It's central idea hinging on climbing the hierarchical spritual ladder by disgarding primitive or "evil" races which weren't meant to have eveloved along side white races? Are you ignoring this question? Pretending it's not being asked?"

No, just trying not to bore you. The central idea of Anthroposophy, again for me, is that man is a threefold being whose consciousness evolves over time. You are certainly welcome to intepret Steiner's writings in any way that they make sense for you, or perhaps whichever way is most entertaining.

The only spiritual ladder that man may climb that I know of is as follows: Man, Christ, God.

"They like to be economical with their truth."

<giggling>

"The Enki system looks interesting doesn't it?"

Well, as I promised to do a little research on it, I started out this morning by emailing Beth Sutton - the founder of Enki. I explained that I am a Waldorf critic (small "c") and that I would like to recommend her school system to people who have entered Waldorf only to find Anthroposophy at the middle of it. I asked her to confirm for me that Anthroposophy is not in Enki. I mentioned we were discussing this topic on this list BTW, but I neglected to link this thread or invite her to join us. Perhaps I should have.

green parent page 2 of discussion

the green parent discussion is here

Pete, not only do they dismiss all criticism, but they spend an inordinate ammount of time and energy gagging it. Sune was at nearly every discussion, and tried his best to threaten them with law suits when the truth was being discussed, and people were interested.
This apparently happened at The Green Parent,and although the discussion is stopped, it's still there.
He managed to get a couple I think, at the Times, deleted, and his friend Harwood I think , came on there too they were so freaked out. He came on the BBC one, and kept getting things deleted.
All I can say is , mumsnet defeated him.....and as it has more hits than any other chatboard, and he managed to put people off in a major way, it works against him. It's nice and quiet without him ny way; and less boring.

I'm surprised the press isn't more aware though; that they are hoodwinked; there's a rumour that the BBC is very biased towards Steiner schools for some reason; they may have some influence.

Oh Sara, you are of course welcome. And all luck and hope to you in the choices you make for your kids education. The Enki system looks interesting doesn't it?

The things Pete says about beware the sneaking in of Steiner waldorf are valid.... they aren't always open about where they hide.

Anthroposophists are involved with The Open Eye campaign , and I found out recently that a seemingly non Steiner organistation called Alliance for Childhood, is run from the same address as the Steiner Waldorf Schools Fellowship (where they have a Steiner publishing outlet too, and where Emerson College is,);
this site chase has a loist of all organistations known to be anthroposophical which might not immediately strike one as such. They like to be economical with their truth.

Davy, that's a great quote, and says it all really- no one is worthy to receive it. Parents at schools most certainly aren't.....

isenhart, feel like answering the things about Steiner's belief system and reincarnation? It's central idea hinging on climbing the hierarchical spritual ladder by disgarding primitive or "evil" races which weren't meant to have eveloved along side white races? Are you ignoring this question? Pretending it's not being asked? wink

Davy, I think you're absolutely right about this. That's the paradox in Steiner's philosophy. He wanted to bring about social change through keeping secret knowledge. hmm

If you're setting out to change the world... how about letting the rest of us in on it? grin

BTW - that may also be why we get so few Anthroposophists defending/discussing Steiner's ideas publicly (on non-Anthro-controlled forums). There's an assumption in the "No person is qualified" statement that until one understands Anthroposophy in the way it was "intended" (e.g. hook, line, and sinker), one cannot claim to have acquired the "prerequisite knowledge" to enter into discussions with Anthroposophists. Only believers are allowed to question Anthroposophy... and even then... um... not-so-much. And when they do participate in public forums about Anthroposophy, they often hide the fact that they are indeed Anthroposophists (we saw this before with Sune and now again).

One could glean a lot about how cults operate by paying attention to how this system to dismiss all criticism has been set up. wink

Pete: "So what is it about answering direct questions that makes Anthropsophists/Waldorf people cringe like vampires around daylight? Anybody? Don't they want to share the "truth" with the rest of us?"

This sums it all for me Pete:
"You may flatter him, you may torment him: nothing can induce him to divulge anything which he knows should not be divulged to you because at your present stage of development you do not understand how to prepare in your soul a worthy reception for this mystery."
Rudolf Steiner: Wie erlangt men Erkenninise die hohern Welter? Berlin, 1918, pp3-4

Delving just a little deeper into how this affects staff, I think that the vast majority of staffers don't actually know the answers to our questions themselves. The difference is that they KNOW that they don't know, but being within the movement, there always seemed to be an assumption that there would come a time when they would be made privvy, but by osmosis rather than study. However, being "in" the movement seems to lend the thought that for all they don't yet know, they are further along the road of preparation than you are, and as part of that, one should discourage open discussion with outsiders.

Couple this steinerism with the archive caveat: "No person is qualified to form a judgment on the contents of this work, who has not acquired — through the School of Spiritual Science itself or in an equivalent manner recognized by the School of Spiritual Science — the requisite preliminary knowledge. Other opinions will be disregarded: the authors decline to take them as a basis for discussion."
[http://www.rsarchive.org/caveat.php?win]
Seems to me that these two alone indicate an ethos of 'tell them nowt'.

The people who have been through this initiation are not always openly associated with the school, but if the school wants to call itself "Steiner" it almost certainly adheres to the tenets of Anthroposophy, its first and ultimate loyalty.
Try asking a school who provides the Spiritual Guardianship under which the school operates. See how far you get.
Davy

"Here she's claiming she's not familiar with the fact that other spiritual systems describe man as having a body, mind, and spirit."

Actually, Diana the statement that you've attempted to support is that this is the central idea to "EVERY OTHER SPIRITUAL PATH."
And, no I'm not familiar with whatever those systems might be.

Sara82 - if you are in the UK, it may be worth looking at human scale education
though beware there are some steiner/waldorf inspired schools on the list whatever that means....

"It does seem, right now...from the website, that they are not a Waldorf supported institution."

I know... and from their websites, Waldorf schools have never heard of Anthroposophy hmm

... just sayin'.... wink

Having said this, I've also decided to try to look into Enki a bit more. If it's the real deal... we should know about it.

I do hear you. Its never a good idea to entrust your child's education to anyone without some cogent questions.

It does seem, right now...from the website, that they are not a Waldorf supported institution. Really, Aristotle? And my sign is Cancer!

IT MUST BE FATE! (jk, of course!)

"If these schools are all they say, there will be some very long waiting lists."

Yes... IF... Waldorf makes a lot of promises too(sorry, but once bitten, twice shy) wink

. Please let us know your progress... IF they're actually what they say they are... then they will indeed be quite different from Waldorf.

"PeteK, THANK YOU!"

You're very welcome. Just please (I don't want to be responsible for steering anyone wrong) be sure it isn't another front for Anthroposophy (like Waldorf is). If and when you're satisfied it isn't - I'd love to hear from you. If it's the real deal (I hope - I hope) then I would love to recommend it to parents like you who want the burger but hold the secret sauce.

"As early as my late teens, I realized I was an Aristotle girl, and dived headfirst into that."

Anthroposophists claim Steiner was the reincarnation of Aristotle... So maybe there's something there... wink

p.s-I guess there WILL BE an Enki school. PeteK, this must be a very new thing. Thank you. If these schools are all they say, there will be some very long waiting lists.

Thank you so much, northernrefugee39, for your insights on your experience. Its invaluable and helps me so much to write with people who have been in this situation.

I guess in reading Steiner the little that I have, I realize that he lived over 100 years ago. There are some universal truths out there, and it seems we do lose some of them, however, to take what he writes literally is something no one would do in any self-examining field. One hopes the educations of adults have been better than to take uncritically the word of any other human being, in any context.

His racism, as deplorable as it seems, is dulled for me by being a normal thing to think for when and where he lived. I really need to read one of his books as a whole. Out of context, is well, out of context! But, I don't approve of my kids thinking like little racists! Very few things would make me angrier.

PeteK, THANK YOU! I have been reading about Enki, and its exactly what I've been looking for. There is a school in the city my husband and I are planning to move to. And, BONUS, I think they emphasize reading! I still need to find out more about it. Thank you, I wouldn't have ever known about that if it weren't for your post.

(I think the discouragement of reading would have made me as a child, very unhappy. I loved being able to travel anywhere just by turning the pages of a book. I was reading by age 5, and haven't ever stopped). Scientology gives me the shivers.....it seems to take the concept of Social Darwinism to new and downright scary levels. Might be an interesting read, though!

I also haven't read much Plato, though its on my long list of reads. As early as my late teens, I realized I was an Aristotle girl, and dived headfirst into that. It amazes me that he was a stone's throw from discovering Darwin's evolution

Vampires and daylight.... wrap in polyester, a splash of dairy a sprinkle of sugar and place in front of the tv.
The biggest killer though is laughter

anthropop truth is but an agreed lie

If it wasn't for the fact that she's making all my points for me, I'd ignore her too. As it is... as someone pointed out earlier and as barking has confirmed, the similarities to Sune's behavior are apparent to more people than just me.

So what is it about answering direct questions that makes Anthropsophists/Waldorf people cringe like vampires around daylight? Anybody? Don't they want to share the "truth" with the rest of us? hmm

Diana, yes there is a new book out from floris called anthroposophy and the gentle art of derailing conversation by val and sune nordwall.

I need to correct that while French classes are rare in Waldorf, they do in fact exist.

What's wrong with Waldorf Education: Waldorf education's founder, Rudolf Steiner, was a controversial figure mainly because of racist ideas he espoused. The following excerpt from one of Steiner's lectures in 1922 is taken from the book "Health and Illness - Vol. 1 - p86" Anthroposophic Press - 1981:

"You see, when we really study science and history, we must conclude that if people become increasingly strong, they will also become increasingly stupid. If the blonds and blue-eyed people die out, the human race will become increasingly dense if men do not arrive at a form of intelligence that is independent of blondness. Blond hair actually bestows intelligence. ...It is indeed true that the more the fair individuals die out the more will the instinctive wisdom of humans vanish."

These ideas weren't just meant for the esoteric thinkers of his time. In the book "Conferences with the Teachers of the Waldorf School in Stuttgart 1922 to 1923: Volume Three: Being the end of the Fourth Year (1923) - Steiner Fellowship Publications, 1988 - pp87-88, Steiner makes the following observation:

"No doubt about it, the soul becomes corrupted through using the French language... It is also possible at the present time that the French will even ruin their own blood, the very element which has kept their language going as a corpse. That is a terrible thing the French people are doing to other people, the frightful cultural brutality of transplanting black people to Europe. It affects France itself worst of all. This has an incredibly strong effect on the blood, the race. This will substantially add to French decadence. The French nation will be weakened as a race."

Indeed, the French language is not offered in Waldorf schools, but German and Spanish are. There are literally hundreds of equally controversial racial and anti-semitic statements made by this man that are explained away as being taken out of context. I have read over a dozen books by Rudolf Steiner in an attempt to discover the context that makes these types of statements appropriate but so far have not found it. Unfortunately, Steiner's philosophies are the foundation for Waldorf education.

One of the arguments made by Waldorf professionals is that this type of information is "optional" for Waldorf teachers and that they need not study Steiner in order to achieve teacher status. This is absolutely untrue.

The following is a course outline and book list of the Rudolf Steiner College in Fair Oaks California (1993-1994) for the FIRST year of the two year training program that prospective Waldorf teachers are expected to complete. The course titles often disguise the course content but simply noting how much of the material was written by Steiner himself makes evident the intense indoctrination into Steiner's philosophy that is the objective of this course of study.

Psych 101 The Nature of the Human Being: Microcosm/Macrocosm
*Rudolf Steiner, Theosophy
*Rudolf Steiner, Calendar of the Soul
*Rudolf Steiner, The Younger Generation

Lit 100 Parsifal
W. von Eschenbach, Parzival (Mustard and Passage translation)
Rene Querido, The Mystery of the Holy Grail: A Modern Path of Initiation
Steven Roboz, ed., The Holy Grail
*Rudolf Steiner, The Search for the Holy Grail

SS 101 Biography, Life Cycles and the Meaning of Existence
Bernard Lievegoed, Phases
Beredene Jocelyn, Citizens of the Cosmos
Gisela and George O'Neil, The Human Life

SS 104 The Festivals
*Rudolf Steiner, The Cycles of the Year as a Breathing Process
*Rudolf Steiner, The Festivals and Their Meaning
*Rudolf Steiner, The Four Seasons and the Archangels

Hist 102 *Rudolf Steiner: His Life and Work
*Rudolf Steiner, The Course of My Life
Robert A. McDermott, ed. The Essential Steiner
Stewart Easton, Man and World in the Light of Anthroposophy
Stewart Easton, *Rudolf Steiner: Herald of a Modern Consciousness

Hist 103 Evolution of Consciousness through Art
Gottfried Richter, Art and Human Consciousness

Psyche 100 Knowledge of the Higher Worlds
*Rudolf Steiner, Knowledge of the Higher Worlds and its Attainment
*Rudolf Steiner, Foundation Stone
F. W. Zeylemans, The Foundation Stone

Phil 103 World Evolution and Spiritual Development
*Rudolf Steiner, Occult Science
*Rudolf Steiner, The Spiritual Hierarchies

Lit 160 English and American Literature
An anthology of readings is provided for the class

Phil 102 Christology
*Rudolf Steiner, Spiritual Guidance of Man
*Rudolf Steiner, Christianity as Mystical Fact

Phil 100 Philosophy of Freedom
*Rudolf Steiner, Philosophy of Freedom

FA 100 Eurythmy
*Rudolf Steiner, A Lecture on Eurythmy
*Rudolf Steiner, An Introduction to Eurythmy
Marjorie Spock, Eurythmy

Ed 100 Introduction to Waldorf Education
*Rudolf Steiner, Kingdom of Childhood
*Rudolf Steiner, Education of the Child in the Light of Spiritual Science

Hist 110 America in the Light of Spiritual Science
An anthology of readings is provided for the class.

Psyche 102 Karma and Reincarnation
*Rudolf Steiner, Manifestations of Karma
*Rudolf Steiner, Reincarnation and Karma
*Rudolf Steiner, Karmic Relationships, Volumes 1-8
Rene Querido, Questions and Answers on Reincarnation and Karma

"OH HOW PEDANTIC! Thing, being.......AAARRRGGGHHH....."

Yeah that's what she does. It will only go on this way - I have found there is little point talking to her. You can only keep arguing the tiniest of points, retracing your steps, trying to clarify what you meant etc. while she either nitpicks or pretends not to understand. It's a game to her.
Here she's claiming she's not familiar with the fact that other spiritual systems describe man as having a body, mind, and spirit. I don't have time for playing games with her - she's a silly woman. I hate to talk other people down on message boards but I feel it isn't fair to people trying genuinely to have a conversation with her to have their time wasted - I feel it's fair to warn you all. People are kind of pissed when they realize she's been having a laugh at their expense.

Isenhart, I'm wondering if Anthropsophy is the only life you've ever known. You have never heard of "mind, body, spirit" outside of Anthroposophy? Please say it isn't so...

In any case, it behooves the rest of us at least to explore the types of ideas Steiner came up with that are not cliche' within spiritual circles. Here's something regarding karma, for example, that is perhaps unique to Anthroposophy. BTW, Steiner talks about the karma of epidemics below - I wonder what the karma of deluding people to the point of CAUSING epidemics is (like whooping cough?) Apparently, this particular idea didn't catch on in modern New-Age philosophies - despite Steiner's proclamation that it is the "truth":

Steiner: "Suppose that a great number of people had felt impelled -
due to their unloving attitude to their fellow human beings - to
absorb certain infectious substances in order to succumb to an
epidemic. Let us further suppose that we could do something about
this epidemic. In that case we would prevent the outer physical
nature from expressing the unloving disposition while failing to
remove the inner inclination to unlovingness. What we need to
envisage now is the following: by removing the outer organ of
unlovingness we actually incur an obligation of working into the soul
in such a way as to remove its inclination to unlovingness. The organ
of unlovingness is killed in the most complete sense - in the outer
physical sense - through the smallpox vaccination. Spiritual
scientific research has shown, for example, that smallpox developed
during a time when the general inclination towards egotism and
unlovingness reached a particular climax. That is when smallpox
emerged in the outer organism. This is a fact. In anthroposophy it is
our duty to speak truthfully.

This will enable you to understand why vaccination was introduced in
our time. You will also understand why the best minds of our time
display a kind of aversion against the practice of vaccination. This
aversion corresponds to something within, it is the outer expression
of an inner reality. What I would like to say is this: if on the one
hand we kill the organ we incur an obligation to follow suit by
working to transform the respective person's materialistic nature by
means of a spiritually oriented education. This would be the
necessary counterpart of our measure. Without it our work is
incomplete. Indeed, we are merely accomplishing something to which
the person in question will somehow have to produce a counterpart in
a later incarnation when he has the smallpox poison within him while
the inner characteristic predisposing him to smallpox has been
removed. If we destroy the susceptibility to smallpox, we are
concentrating only on the external
side of karmic activity. " " (Steiner, Rudolf. Manifestations of Karma. Rudolf
Steiner Press
London, 1995 p140).

OH HOW PEDANTIC! Thing, being.......AAARRRGGGHHH.....
"Mind body spirit" is a common "new age" term isenhart, have you not come accross it in Steinerland? Self realisation, holistic medicine, personal growth, dawning of spiritual age, not very intellectual, that sort of thing; fits nicely with a Steiner mind set.

"What you said about anthroposophy that he is referring to, is that it says that humans have a body, mind and spirit (threefold thing)."

Probably I said that man is a three-fold being. I doubt that I would ever say that humans are a three-fold thing. I'm actually not familiar with the religion or philosophy you're describing here-are you saying you think that's an accurate depiction of all spiritual paths?

Diana, I took isenhart's answer to Pete's question about the racial beliefs in Steiner to mean that these are truths; these racial beliefs are about man's place in society and man's nature.
(Although "society" seems a prosaic word to use , when in fact it's man's place in the cosmos or universe I would have thought Steiner was talking about) but it's good to have it brought down to earth.

isenhart do you accept that Steiner's teaching and belief about reincarnation hinges on the idea that humankind incarnates through various spiritual hierarchies, higher and higher up the spiritual ladder, and that this climbing involves some races becoming extinguished and jettisoned? That , in his belief system, it would not be possible, for instance , to reach the pinnicle of the spiritual hierarchy in the future,if you weren't white? That he believed black races to be primitive, that they "should" have died out naturally? That the only reason these races are evolving alonside each other is because Ahriman and Lucifer rocked the evolutionary boat? They are an anomoly?
Because, if you read Steiner you will find these are his beliefs. They are what his reincarnation and belief about the future of mankind are based on.

Pete:

"OK - but what you described doesn't distinguish Anthroposophy from anything else."

Isenhart:
"Yes, it does."

What you said about anthroposophy that he is referring to, is that it says that humans have a body, mind and spirit (threefold thing).

Obviously, that does NOT distinguish anthroposophy from most other spiritual systems.

I find it impossible to believe that you have this much trouble following a conversation - that's why I assume you are disingenuous.

I have totally lost the will to follow you isenhart. What then, is it, which spiritually describes anthroposophy which is different from other spiritual ideas? Why aren't you able to answer Pete's question?

Isenhart wrote:

"What is true about the nature of man, about society, about man's place in society and when do you want your children to know these truths?"

and I do not want it to get lost in the very long postings that followed, that this was not originally a sincere question from her - it was written in direct response to Pete asking her about the RACIAL teachings in Steiner. This was her reply - a non-reply, answering a question with a question, in order to avoid having to state yes or no as to whether she agreed with the racial teachings.
Now she's playing a game pretending she posed a sincere question and Pete won't answer it.

"OK - but what you described doesn't distinguish Anthroposophy from anything else."

Yes, it does.

Pete: "So, isenhart, the "central idea" of Anthroposophy is basically what is central to EVERY OTHER SPIRITUAL PATH?"

isenhart: "No."

OK - but what you described doesn't distinguish Anthroposophy from anything else. What would you say distinguishes Anthroposophy from other spiritual paths? How does one know when one is reading Anthroposophical ideas or general spiritual stuff? I would suggest that it's the stuff that is unique to Anthroposophy that distinguishes it from other spiritual thought streams, not what it has in common with others. So what's unique about Anthroposophy - if it isn't the stuff Steiner put in Anthroposophy that isn't in other spiritual streams?

Sara wrote:]
"I'm new on this board, and I'm looking here, and posting here, because I have been considering a Waldorf school."

Welcome Sara

"I have been extensively reading both 'sides' on the internet, and I'm getting some Steiner books as well, and I'm wondering....do any of you think that there are ANY valuable things about this style of education, i.e., ANYTHING worth salvaging from the shipwreck that your experiences have been?"

Good for you Sara! smile

Absolutely be as informed as you can be. Indeed it's much easier today with lots of information on the internet - and some not-so-good. You pretty much have to pick through it carefully as it appears you are doing.

To answer your question - and I think Northern alluded to it - Waldorf without the Anthroposophy would be a pretty decent arts school (the art itself would have to be replaced with something "artistic"). Yesterday my son (who is still in Waldorf until the end of this semester), for example, brought home a beautiful guitar that he made himself. That aspect of Waldorf is worth salvaging. Now what went INTO the making of that guitar, the comments, lessons, reasons for doing things the way they were done - that was pure Anthroposophy. That's the nonsense/religious/occult part that has to go.

"I ask this because I've been reading some more mainstream books and applying some recommended things that seem applicable. For example, I read to my 4 year old and my 1 year old (I know this is not recommended in Waldorf schools, but that's ridiculous), anyhow, I've been lighting a candle and making a kind of circle. They now sit quietly and I can read a whole book! Maybe even two books, but there are limits, they are kids after all! Anyway, its been 2 months of this, there is something about the candle. I've made little felt angels for them, and they love them, I mean they really love them. And many more things. The Waldorf recommended books are fantastic for my kids, the plant dyed playsilks, the wood toys, toys that kids can project imagination onto, connection to the natural world, connection to myth, and ritual, to name a few things."

You are drawn to the same things most of us who have been through Waldorf were drawn to... the "environment" can be very calming for adults... but it's like asking kids to sit still in a library. Sure, the playthings look great... but when play is "directed" toward certain themes, that's not necessarily good (when those themes are based on weird religious or racist stuff). Some Waldorf school kindergartens don't allow black crayons, for example. You may have noticed when you visited, NO dinosaurs, NO trucks or cars... stuff like that doesn't normally catch people's eye... but it has meaning in Waldorf.

"My son has been diagnosed with an autism spectrum disorder, and I swear this has helped him beyond belief. We do all sorts of things, gluten-free, milk-free, acupressure, social stories, neurotherapeutics, all the organic food we can afford, but these simple things have made him so much calmer. Some weeks there are no flare-ups, no problems. He's very high functioning, but lately his therapist is thinking its possible he will grow out of this. Its possible its all coincidence, but there is something to some of it, I notice it with the quality of both my children's attention, and their general happiness. I just wish we could take the good parts out of the crazy."

There has been an attempt to do that. It's called "Enki" and it's a derivative of Waldorf and others without (they claim) the Anthroposophy. Lots of people recognize that what's wrong with Waldorf is the Anthroposophy. Eventually, a school system (maybe something like Enki) with environments replicating Waldorf may establish itself as a Waldorf-lite and could find great appeal among many parents.

"Steiner did also say that pesticides and forced breeding would eventually cause many problem in our apiculture. It sounds commonsensical, but its far seeing for its time. Its unrelated, and its possible for anyone to be correct about some things, I guess."

Even a broken watch shows the correct time twice a day. grin

"What I'm really wondering, is why did people listen to Steiner at all?"

I'm pulling this all from memory... but Steiner worked his way up in the Theosophical society (Blavatsky) and eventually branched off - (Steiner basically got in and caused a mutiny) taking a lot of Theosophists with him... to start the Anthroposophical Society. In his time, there was a great (if I may use the word...) "impulse" toward spirituality. It was a time of frauds and charlatans... seances held to invoke the spirits of the dead for members of high society were common. Donnelly had released his "Atlantis" work in the late 1800's and Steiner picked up on the "fad". The world happened to be ripe for Steiner's kind of thinking... and he must have been very charismatic from what I can tell.

"Did he have money?"

No - he was not well off by any means.

"Was he personally charismatic?"

Yes, he would have to have been.

"Or did some of his ideas, not all of them, but some....have some real therapeutic value for a segment of the population?"

Who knows? Maybe tomorrow they will find evidence that verifies everything Steiner said... but I'm working with what's available today - and today it looks like much of the "value" people perceive is, indeed, a perception.

"I wrote more than I intended, and I'm not trying to be a devil's advocate."

Absolutely! You should be. It's the way we learn about things. I often attempt to debate both sides of issues in order to learn.

"I'm just trying to work out the good and the bad, so I can get the best out of it, whether its finding things I can teach, or looking for a school that has some non-scary Waldorf tendencies."

If your kids are young, maybe homeschooling works for you. You can get some non-academic benefit from Waldorf homeschooling. But once you have the environment, and the basic theme, I'm wondering what else you might want from Waldorf specifically?

"I'm really sad and angry about the bad things that have happened to some of the children in these schools. It isn't fair that people do these things to children. I wish there weren't this awful cloud of craziness about Waldorf schools. Its sad that there aren't more options for our kids in the world."

I agree. Here's the Enki approach - but I can't recommend it because, well, I fell for Waldorf and I know a lot less about Enki than I did about Waldorf at the time. If what they are saying is "true" (and there's no guarantee) it sounds OK.

"One other thing. I feel when I read Steiner, and bear in mind that I have not read one of his original printings yet...I feel that at least some of what he is writing is myth. Its a symbol. Like, for example, Freud, or Kepler...their writings have a mythical storytelling quality. And....some of what they write is laughably absurd."

Yes, many people, when they come across the absurdity of Steiner's ideas, try to claim they must be metaphors for something else. Steiner himself insisted that he did not use metaphors but rather described things as they truly are.

"Or, the Bible, for example. Much of that cannot be taken literally. However, there is a reality to good myth. I can't really explain that to my satisfaction yet, but it is tied up in spirituality and religion."

When Steiner said things, he meant them literally. He even went to the trouble of explaining literally in detail, the myths and metaphors in the Bible.

"For example, the etheric body probably doesn't come in just as a child loses her or his baby teeth. sigh, I don't really believe in the etheric, necessarily."

No, the etheric body is available at birth... it is the life force, according to Steiner.

"Piaget is much easier for me. Its missing the good story though. The gravity and mystery that gives more meaning to life. Its very hard to explain. I haven't given up yet though."

Oh, absolutely read Steiner for the story... Gel-people evolving from Saturn and populating Earth... Atlantis, Lemuria, it's great stuff - almost sci-fi. I can't wait to finish with Steiner and move on to L. Ron Hubbard.

Again, Welcome to the discussion Sara

I'm aching to know the stories and anecdotes that we will now miss which could be helpful to some of us. Can you give us a gist isenhart?

"I can well imagine so - it's hard to make stuff up when it can be verified. I'd think, if your school is doing everything right, you should be proud to advertise it here. However, if your school is doing the kind of stuff Highland Hall is doing (and I can see by the parent "pledge" it is far worse and more cult-like in some areas) then I can see your concern about having what you have been touting as the perfect Waldorf school exposed for what it really is. It's great to have an anonymous (fictitious) school that's perfect in every way isn't it."

I resent your implication that I, or others perhaps, would make things up. I've never said that I know of any school that's doing everything right. If I knew of one I would share that with others, certainly. I've also never touted my children's school as a perfect Waldorf school. The problem, for me, is that it's more difficult to bring any anecdotal examples now to this list that might have been helpful to others because those stories involve real people in a real community which you have now named. It should be my decision whether or not to disclose this information and you were admittedly wrong to do so. I have offered you the opportunity to correct your error.

"Nonsense. I went to specific effort to ask you personally if you had any additional questions."

I didn't understand that you were soliciting additional questions from me personally since your comment was addressed to everyone nor do I see that you have demonstrated that you are "happy to answer them - always."

"Did I say schools lie about their attrition rates?"

You said it would be helpful if schools didn't lie about them. The insinuation was that schools do.

"There... satisfied? Is it OK if I address the new person now? Or do you feel you need to monopolize my time here still?"

My permission is not required for you to address other listmates.

"My concern is that when you posted my name when I hadn't done so and posted the school where my children attend my ability to give concrete examples of things that might carry import for people on this list was diminished significantly. "

I can well imagine so - it's hard to make stuff up when it can be verified. I'd think, if your school is doing everything right, you should be proud to advertise it here. However, if your school is doing the kind of stuff Highland Hall is doing (and I can see by the parent "pledge" it is far worse and more cult-like in some areas) then I can see your concern about having what you have been touting as the perfect Waldorf school exposed for what it really is. It's great to have an anonymous (fictitious) school that's perfect in every way isn't it.

Isenhart wrote:
"I do not feel that I made some type of stinging point as that was not my intention-only to answer your questions as best as I was able."

And you feel, honestly, that you have done that? If that's the best you can do, why are we having a discussion at all? I'm not interested in having a word game. If you can honestly say you are unaware of things that you have been made aware of repeatedly - then I believe your kid's assessment of your mental capacities might be the most honest thing you have provided here. The point is, we ALL KNOW you are making a game out of this dialog.

"If I did make a stinging point, if my words hurt you somehow, I'm certainly sorry."

LOL! No - I don't believe you have.

"I find your, second now, attempt to engage others in this conversation while at the same time saying that my questions are unworthy of a response to be, again, disrepectful."

Nonsense. I went to specific effort to ask you personally if you had any additional questions. I'm not about to drag readers back into that giant post. I didn't glean anything else worth commenting on. Perhaps you did. That's why I asked.

"I know it is a long post to respond to and I understand if you don't have time (I had to write it not once but twice yesterday.) And again if you feel stung or something, I'm sorry, but I don't appreciate your peddling whatever your issue is off by saying my questions don't warrent an answer."

I'm happy to answer them - always. How about extracting the questions you would like answered from the huge post and simply asking them again?

"So here are the questions that I asked in case you change your mind regarding their relevance:"

Great! Now we're getting somewhere.

"What is true about the nature of man, about society, about man's place in society and when do you want your children to know these truths?"

I haven't discovered any "truths" about such things and I don't want my children to EVER believe they know the truth about such things.

"Never what? What truth don't you want your children exposed to ever?"

Steiners racism.

No, your school is not an anomaly?

No - I believe, from a decade of talking with other Waldorf parents and teachers around the world that Highland Hall is quite typical of Waldorf schools.

"Are you saying that this has been your experience or the experience of other parents/prospective parents that you know?"

Both.

"Or do you suspect and speculate that schools do this?(regarding schools lying about their attrition rates)"

Did I say schools lie about their attrition rates?

"You mean you think something along the lines of, "You just caught us on a bad day" is going to salvage an experience such as Anenome described?"

No.

"Not as far as I know. Do you think that's what happened? (regarding de-humanizing effects of technology)"

No - but I'm not an Anthroposophist.

There... satisfied? Is it OK if I address the new person now? Or do you feel you need to monopolize my time here still? hmm

Naw... I apologized. It was an honest mistake and this board has no edit button (apparently). If you think your kids are at risk, maybe you should contact Mumsnet - you can complain about me while you're at it. I think honestly you're more concerned that your school's name will be connected with these discussions... and not that you or your kids (aren't they adults now anyway?) will be connected with your school.

My concern is that when you posted my name when I hadn't done so and posted the school where my children attend my ability to give concrete examples of things that might carry import for people on this list was diminished significantly. And no, my children are not adults.

"Anyway - I don't see any point in attempting to answer anything else above - unless you feel you've made some sort of stinging point in any of that - or if any of it has raised a question for anyone that I might be able to answer... please ask."

I do not feel that I made some type of stinging point as that was not my intention-only to answer your questions as best as I was able. If I did make a stinging point, if my words hurt you somehow, I'm certainly sorry. I find your, second now, attempt to engage others in this conversation while at the same time saying that my questions are unworthy of a response to be, again, disrepectful. I know it is a long post to respond to and I understand if you don't have time (I had to write it not once but twice yesterday.) And again if you feel stung or something, I'm sorry, but I don't appreciate your peddling whatever your issue is off by saying my questions don't warrent an answer. So here are the questions that I asked in case you change your mind regarding their relevance:

What is true about the nature of man, about society, about man's place in society and when do you want your children to know these truths?

Never what? What truth don't you want your children exposed to ever?

No, your school is not an anomaly?

Are you saying that this has been your experience or the experience of other parents/prospective parents that you know? Or do you suspect and speculate that schools do this?(regarding schools lying about their attrition rates)

You mean you think something along the lines of, "You just caught us on a bad day" is going to salvage an experience such as Anenome described?

Not as far as I know. Do you think that's what happened? (regarding de-humanizing effects of technology)

Isenhart wrote:
"If you have a desire to edit your post then I suggest that you contact the mumsmet people and ask them to strike the name of my children's school from this record."

Naw... I apologized. It was an honest mistake and this board has no edit button (apparently). If you think your kids are at risk, maybe you should contact Mumsnet - you can complain about me while you're at it. I think honestly you're more concerned that your school's name will be connected with these discussions... and not that you or your kids (aren't they adults now anyway?) will be connected with your school. hmm

"So, isenhart, the "central idea" of Anthroposophy is basically what is central to EVERY OTHER SPIRITUAL PATH?"

No.

"Oh, I see... so Anthroposophy is basically mainstream spirituality according to your understanding of it. Correct?"

No.

One of the worst things for us , in the end, was, and there was a build up of terrible hings, is the race beliefs, because it personally touched our family, and is so subtle, so hard to pinpoint.
There is a pervading sense of superiority among Steiner followers and anthroposophists, which is very appealing and attractive; people want to be a part of that; we do lack a spiritual element in our lives; if there is a community which seems to have got it so right, and are so sure that they have, they are bound to attract.

There are good things about the schools and communities. The craft( not the art, it's proscribed and uncreative imo), the music and singing, the outdoor thins like gardening and building. I liked the fact that they were taught myths too; if only it was all done well, it could be so exciting and creative, rather than this boring droning on of teachers, with no other visual or aural stimulation. There is nothing on the walls but watery steiner pictures, no books, only chalk drawings on the board by the class teacher, and his/her copied notes. It is DEADENING. And is meant to be unstimulating.

Hi Sara, thanks for such a thought provoking and great post. I agre with almost all you say; the way you are bringing up your kids is how we so wished the schools were; it was all we had hoped for when we went down the Steiner route. Many many times I, and others have said if only the schools existed without the anthroposophy, but they exist for the anthroposophy unfortunately. The schools are there in the hope that some of the children will be awakened to the spirtual, and be able to lead humankind in future epochs.
As far as the autistic spectrum gos, in recent months i've discussed with two families who have had appaling experiences at Steiner school, one with aspergers, a discussion here on mumsnet
and another much worse one actually, on netmums. If you want to find it, you can search for it under the thread title "school admits to not understanding aspergers" or you could put Steiner in the search. I'll try and find the direct link later( am not on my own computer atm)
You're probably aware of Steiner's ideas about autism, dyslexia, even left handedness. They are due to incarnation problems. He thought people with learning disabilities were "demons in human form". Having had close contact with a cmphill community, I canvouch for the fact that today, this is still a belief; Those words not spelt out, but phrases like "We don't believe these people are as they are for the same reasons as you" and other references implying this were said to me a few times.

Steiner believed that "evil" could be seen in people's physical appearance, a very dangerous path of labeling shock

I'm not surprised you've not read all Steiner! I doubt there are many people who have! There's masses and masses....
I'm not entirely sure that the beliefs are metaphorical though, (although that would explain much.) In his work, time after time , he reiterates statements as "scientifically true", and often says that all he is saying is "true".
I know that many anthroposophists and Steiner parents/teachers/camphill people who truly believe , for instance, in "elemental beings" like gnomes, sylphs and fairies; grown women who have told me they've seen them. It's one thing to tell kids they exist, to keep the awe, magic and reverence of childhood alive, but......
They also believe the Atlantis myth, (and Steiner's theory of evolution,) which is Plato's metaphor. It's not necessarily any more bonkers, imo, than creationists actually, but at least creationists are open and upfront. Anthroposophists are secretive at best, liars at worst. They propogate a sense of cult.

One other thing. I feel when I read Steiner, and bear in mind that I have not read one of his original printings yet...I feel that at least some of what he is writing is myth. Its a symbol. Like, for example, Freud, or Kepler...their writings have a mythical storytelling quality. And....some of what they write is laughably absurd.

Or, the Bible, for example. Much of that cannot be taken literally. However, there is a reality to good myth. I can't really explain that to my satisfaction yet, but it is tied up in spirituality and religion. For example, the etheric body probably doesn't come in just as a child loses her or his baby teeth. sigh, I don't really believe in the etheric, necessarily. Piaget is much easier for me. Its missing the good story though. The gravity and mystery that gives more meaning to life. Its very hard to explain. I haven't given up yet though.

I'm new on this board, and I'm looking here, and posting here, because I have been considering a Waldorf school. I have been extensively reading both 'sides' on the internet, and I'm getting some Steiner books as well, and I'm wondering....do any of you think that there are ANY valuable things about this style of education, i.e., ANYTHING worth salvaging from the shipwreck that your experiences have been?

I ask this because I've been reading some more mainstream books and applying some recommended things that seem applicable. For example, I read to my 4 year old and my 1 year old (I know this is not recommended in Waldorf schools, but that's ridiculous), anyhow, I've been lighting a candle and making a kind of circle. They now sit quietly and I can read a whole book! Maybe even two books, but there are limits, they are kids after all! Anyway, its been 2 months of this, there is something about the candle. I've made little felt angels for them, and they love them, I mean they really love them. And many more things. The Waldorf recommended books are fantastic for my kids, the plant dyed playsilks, the wood toys, toys that kids can project imagination onto, connection to the natural world, connection to myth, and ritual, to name a few things.

My son has been diagnosed with an autism spectrum disorder, and I swear this has helped him beyond belief. We do all sorts of things, gluten-free, milk-free, acupressure, social stories, neurotherapeutics, all the organic food we can afford, but these simple things have made him so much calmer. Some weeks there are no flare-ups, no problems. He's very high functioning, but lately his therapist is thinking its possible he will grow out of this. Its possible its all coincidence, but there is something to some of it, I notice it with the quality of both my children's attention, and their general happiness. I just wish we could take the good parts out of the crazy.

Steiner did also say that pesticides and forced breeding would eventually cause many problem in our apiculture. It sounds commonsensical, but its far seeing for its time. Its unrelated, and its possible for anyone to be correct about some things, I guess. What I'm really wondering, is why did people listen to Steiner at all? Did he have money? Was he personally charismatic? Or did some of his ideas, not all of them, but some....have some real therapeutic value for a segment of the population?

I wrote more than I intended, and I'm not trying to be a devil's advocate. I'm just trying to work out the good and the bad, so I can get the best out of it, whether its finding things I can teach, or looking for a school that has some non-scary Waldorf tendencies. I'm really sad and angry about the bad things that have happened to some of the children in these schools. It isn't fair that people do these things to children. I wish there weren't this awful cloud of craziness about Waldorf schools. Its sad that there aren't more options for our kids in the world.

Oh look, Wiki on reincarnation, after Hinduism, Buddism etc, here's anthroposophy, the first sentence, the main point

"Anthroposophy
Reincarnation plays an important role in the ideas of Anthroposophy, a spiritual movement founded by Rudolf Steiner. Steiner described the human soul as gaining new experiences in every epoch and in a variety of races or nations"
(my bold)

Pete, I meant to comment on the quotes of Steiner and Hitler, SCARY.
Any comments isenhart? Now Pete has made you aware of this race issue in Steiner education? Why aren't you addressing this issue? It's a fairly huge one isn't it?

isenhart, it's so blatently obvious you are playing games and ignoring all salient points. You're doing almost as good a job as Sune in convincing people to steer so clear of Steiner schools you won't se them for dust.
Steiner's entire anthroposophical constructions are built around the notion of reincarnation, spiritual hierarchical growth gained by climbing the ladder of races, jettisonning the "lower primitive" and "evil" races on the way; without this tenet, the system crumbles.
In other beliefs, like Buddism, Hinduism, Sihkism for instance, reincarnation involves one's soul coming back within the animal and plant kingdom too; in anthroposophy, it doesn't, it uses race as the ladder climbed to higher planes.

As far as drop out numbers in school, the school our kids went to had over 90 children when we arrived; this dropped to 35 when we left; this year three more families are leaving; the turn over rate at Steiner schools I know is phenonomal.

As to why people don't pick up on the anthroposophy and strangeness; firstly, we were lied to, directly; in the first instance, many people have arrived at the "alternative" route of Steiner schools because they are disillusioned with mainstream, testing, lack of creativity; the Steiner schools play on this, selling themselves as the opposite. On visits, always pre arranged, never spontaneous, a show is played out. Questions aren't properly answered, relevent reading matter and advice are extremely selective. They hoodwink even the most persistent enquirers;
why is it that they rarely mention anthroposophy in the literature do you think?Because it's difficult? wink

Of course not; because any sanr person would run a mile if they thought this would be used as a foundation stone for educating their kids. But then your kids think you're insane isenhart, si s'pose it's quite fitting smile

You know I just love it, Diana, when you call me the "A" word.

"First, you are correct, I mistakenly posted information that could identify your school... I should not have connected you personally with the information I posted. Having realized I did this, I immediately looked for a way to edit my post but there doesn't seem to be any. Please accept my apology in this regard and please know that I would never, no matter how much we might disagree in our discussions here, intentionally post information that is intended to be private.'

I accept your apology for this most recent incident. There was another prior to this one as well. If you have a desire to edit your post then I suggest that you contact the mumsmet people and ask them to strike the name of my children's school from this record.

"Do you discuss or talk like this in rl? In riddles and clever, clever non-answers?"

I asked my teenagers since I figured they could judge this best. My eldest said, "Tell whoever's asking that you're totally insane." The younger one said, "You can."

How did everyone do on the quiz? grin

Is there anything in all that dialog that requires answering? hmm

First, you are correct, I mistakenly posted information that could identify your school... I should not have connected you personally with the information I posted. Having realized I did this, I immediately looked for a way to edit my post but there doesn't seem to be any. Please accept my apology in this regard and please know that I would never, no matter how much we might disagree in our discussions here, intentionally post information that is intended to be private.

On to better things...

This one bears repeating for it comic value:

"I have never understood there to be any basic tenets involved. If you're asking for a central idea, for me, it would be that man is a three-fold being whose consciousness evolves over time."

So, isenhart, the "central idea" of Anthroposophy is basically what is central to EVERY OTHER SPIRITUAL PATH? Oh, I see... so Anthroposophy is basically mainstream spirituality according to your understanding of it. Correct? I may have to post a few things I believe are unique to Anthroposophy... so you can explain to me if these fall within the "central idea" of Anthroposophy. Additionally, I'll ask you to help me examine what would happen to Anthroposophy if we take out some of what I consider to be the basic tenets of Anthroposophy - racial hierarchies for example. Would you accept my invitation to participate in that discussion? Because I think if we look at what happens to Anthroposophy without racism, it pretty much falls apart. Racism is the framework for Steiner's physical human hierarchies. Just like Steiner set up spiritual hierarchies he set up hierarchies of human forms according to race. Then he went on to create hierarchies in the animal, plant and mineral worlds as well. So without the human hierarchies, there's a significant hole in Steiner's hierarchal structure. This is all very clear in his writings. You should read them sometime. Then you might become "aware" of these tenets of Anthroposophy.

"I don't recall ever making such a claim unless you think whatever crap's residing inside my T.V. is deep stuff"

It doesn't matter what I think... it matters what Waldorf teachers think. So that's another thing we can explore here. But we're approaching our 1000 post limit... maybe I'd better start a new thread. What should we call it? Maybe "Weirdness of Waldorf Teachers - The Unauthorized Story."

Anyway - I don't see any point in attempting to answer anything else above - unless you feel you've made some sort of stinging point in any of that - or if any of it has raised a question for anyone that I might be able to answer... please ask.

Pete to Isenhart:

"Either that, or you are again being dishonest about your interest in Anthroposophy."

It's the latter. She's deeply involved and has been for many years, and she's a serious anthroposophist. Her contributions here are disingenuous. Most forums that she joins, her contributions are disingenuous. Eventually folks realize she is actually making fun of them, this is her idea of a good game. Basically she's as phony as they come.

Pete:"Not affiliated with the school at all?"

Depends on what you mean by affiliated-if you mean that my children have attended a particular Waldorf School-then yes I am affiliated.

Pete:"So, is it true that black people "burn from the inside", and that they are spiritually "childlike" - as Steiner declared? Is it true that Jews have "outlived their usefulness" and should abandon "their very way of thinking"? Those MUST be spiritual truths, right?"

Val: "What is true about the nature of man, about society, about man's place in society and when do you want your children to know these truths?"

Pete:"NEVER!!!!"

Val: Never what? What truth don't you want your children exposed to ever?

Pete: "What is true about the nature of man, about society, about man's place in society" - according to STEINER. I would never want my children to learn these "truths" - because as you know, according to Steiner, a man's place in society is dependent on his skin color."

No, I don't know that. What you don't want your children exposed to, apparently, are what you consider to be falsehoods. My question was what is true and when would it be appropriate for children to learn. My children are exposed to all kinds of false statements from many sources and I correct them as I am able.

Val: "No need for you to be sorry since my awareness or lack thereof has nothing to do with you."

Pete:"Except that you are being dishonest about it. If I tell you now that Anthroposophy is based on these tenets, will you be aware of it tomorrow?"

No, I'm not. Tomorrow I will continue to be aware that you believe anthropsophy is based on these tenets.

Val: "I've never been aware that anthroposophy was based on these tenets though I am aware that you believe them to be."

Pete:"So you are aware that those ideas exist in Anthroposophy... Correct? But you deny that they are the basis of Anthroposophy. What then, would you describe as the basis of Anthroposophy. Please be specific - not something obtuse like "love" or "freedom" - What are the basic tenets of Anthroposophy?"

I have never understood there to be any basic tenets involved. If you're asking for a central idea, for me, it would be that man is a three-fold being whose consciousness evolves over time.

Pete:"If you don't know what they are, then you have no reason not to believe me when I tell you. In any case, anyone reading this will recognize you are dodging the question."

The reader is free, as you are, to make their own judgments.

Pete:"How would that be average? 4 kindergartens and 12 grades - 400 kids plus or minus. 100 kids per year is NOT the size of the graduating class."

True, but then again, zero percent is not the national or the regional average attrition rate for either Waldorf Schools or private schools.

Val: "I think your school's number would be more meaningful compared with the same statistic for other private schools in your area."

Pete:"You have reason to believe other private schools in my area have attrition rates that high? I can assure you they are not."

No, your argument would be more effective when presented with comparative data, IMO but then perhaps we have different opinions about what constitutes effective communication.

Val:"Maybe your school is an anomaly or maybe you live in a highly transient area."

Pete"Um... no. Do you require more straws to
grasp at?"

No, your school is not an anomaly?

Val:"At any rate, I think as I already mentioned, this is certainly something a prospective parent could ask when considering any private school-what is their retention rate. It's something we took a hard look at when evaluating colleges."

Pete:"Yes - and of course it helps if the schools themselves don't lie to the parents directly about this."

Are you saying that this has been your experience or the experience of other parents/prospective parents that you know? Or do you suspect and speculate that schools do this?

Val: "I think if you are "creeped out" initially by a Kindergarten as I think Anenome said she was that you wouldn't enroll your child there."

Pete:She didn't!

Right. She said she was "freaked out."

Val: "The question was what's wrong with these people that "fall for it" perhaps vulnerability?"

Pete:LYING by Waldorf perhaps?

You mean you think something along the lines of, "You just caught us on a bad day" is going to salvage an experience such as Anenome described? Parents that have a visceral repulsion to a school setting are not apt to enroll their children.

Pete:"How do they explain their views on the things I described in my previous post - late reading, vaccinations, TV and such?"

Val: "IMO, as best they can."

Pete:"Flatly LYING? That's the best they can do?"

They don't lie to me as far as I know.

Val: "We had a media talk at a monthly parent meeting at least once a year. The observable effects of media on children in the classroom was what was most often discussed. That was what I, as a parent, cared about as well as my children's behavior and well being outside of school, of course."

Pete:That's what makes you a wonderful Waldorf parent, then.

Perhaps, though I don't consider myself a wonderful Waldorf Parent or even a wonderful parent.

Pete:You are clueless about Waldorf by intention, apparently. Why on earth wouldn't you care, as a parent, that the teachers of your child believe spirits live in television sets? I guess, as they say, ignorance is bliss.

As a parent, I'm much more concerned about the content of the programing my children watch than anything that might live inside the T.V.

Val: "This impulse that you speak of did come into discussion when cyberbullying and messaging nude pictures of classmates became big in the public schools here a few years ago."

Pete:Really?

Really. There was also the issue of a parent discovering that the parental blocks on computers work only to a very limited degree.

Pete:How did that discussion go?

It seemed to me that, even in middle school, parents still sought to protect their children, in this case, from cyberbullying and pornography and were eager to understand the school's perspective.

Pete:Did Ahriman possess these public school children? Were they no longer human? Did Ahriman cause the cyberbullying?

Not as far as I know. Do you think that's what happened?

Val: "I love the turn-off T.V. week campaign and participated in it before I ever heard of Waldorf Education but it took years and was like pulling teeth to get the local Waldorf schools to adopt this program."

Pete:Well, how can you turn your TV OFF, if you're not allowed to turn it ON?

If you never turn your T.V. on then I would think that you have no need to turn it off.

Val:"It's the bottom line as I see it."

Pete:What - that Waldorf education has no value? I would agree.

That Waldorf schools as well as private schools in general have hit the "tuition wall" where the tuition spent in more and more cases exceeds the perceived value of the education.

Pete:"Oh, there's no question. If you are an Anthroposophist, or are in alignment with Anthroposophy and Steiner's views, Waldorf education is for you... absolutely."

Val: "I don't agree."

Pete:Really? Then where DO Anthroposophists send their kids to school?

Really. In my experience-to schools of all sorts for a variety of reasons. Likewise, a critic of Waldorf Education could have their children enrolled in a Waldorf School.

Pete:From what you said above, Val, it apparently describes you. You claim you don't want to know the deeper stuff behind Waldorf... so you're what Waldorf schools call a "drop off" parent - you drop your kids off and trust they will get a good education. Either that, or you are again being dishonest about your interest in Anthroposophy. If you have gone to the trouble of educating yourself on Waldorf, why do you seem so reluctant to share with us what you know? BTW, I've taken a peek at your Waldorf school's website. Hopefully you're not getting your information from there...

I don't recall ever making such a claim unless you think whatever crap's residing inside my T.V. is deep stuff but I work hard in many ways to ensure that my children receive an excellent education which they do. One of those ways was educating myself on Waldorf, as you put it, but I wonder if there's a difference in your mind between being educated and being informed and how one knows if he/she has been sufficiently educated and/or informed.

Pete:This parent pledge is from the parent handbook - note the TV pledge at the end:

I also don't recall stating the name of my children's school on this list nor our place of residence which can be gleaned from the information you provided. Did you presume to provide this information in spite of my anonymity? If so, I consider this very disrespectful to say the least.

Pete, you have more patience than I have smile

Anenome, i couldn't find any reference to anthroposophy on the Hereford site...no surprises there then... if you put the word into their search engine, an old document comes up , describing what they ought to do , one of the things being , to try nd inform parents more about anthroposophy. hmm

That's the only thing. So, they didn't get far there then.....
The pictures are attractive I must say; but you know what, in reality, each of those pics wpuld have been repeated 20 times , exact replicas, because they kids all copy from the teacher. So the web site is clever. The schools show it truthfully, with class room walls covered with identical paintings and drawings.
isenhart, I'm finding it difficult to converse with you in any way really. Do you discuss or talk like this in rl? In riddles and clever clever non answers?
You don't address the issues atall really; game playing. I'm bored with it.

"I highly doubt that their ideas will become distinguishable for you in your next post though you certainly do seem to have the ability to distinguish between the thoughts of different authors."

Well, I suspect the reason for some of the indistinguishable similarities might be that Steiner's ideas probably fueled Hitlers (there is certainly speculation about this) - as Hitler was very much into the racist esoteric stuff Steiner and Blavatsky produced. And Hitler's ideas, in turn, fuel the NAAWP, so the connection of ideas may indeed not be so much a case of different ideas by different authors but Steiner's ideas developed over time.

Pete:"Clearly - nothing. Some of their ideas were indistinguishable."

Val:Indistinguishable to you.

"Oh... OK - Watch for my next post then..."

I highly doubt that their ideas will become distinguishable for you in your next post though you certainly do seem to have the ability to distinguish between the thoughts of different authors. Later in this very post, fe, you distinguish your own thought from those attributed to Baruch, Maslow, and Twain.

Now, unfortunately I will have to come back to the rest of your post as I answered it once this morning but whilst driving the kiddies to their morning swim the dogs apparently took my computer offline. Such is life, you know, in the fast lane.

"(Bay is cosidered to be highly protective against bad energy and clairvoyant attack)"

Bay leaves are a choking hazard.

Northern...the funny thing about the Hereford school is that if you visit their website the Anthroposophy info. link is permanently broken hmm

....but to be fair the kids pictures seem to have the colour black in them and they're not just wet on wet. I know what you mean about the kids... wink

...I'm typing with one hand right now due to DD number 2 lying on the other grin

Sorry about spelling, wasn't fully concentrating, ( three kids arguing around me..)

Anenome, the school you visited sounds very full on anthro! Although everything you say resonates with me. When we first visited, they were "on show" as it wear, and obviously made an efort to sell themselves in the best possible light; the kids statred and were unresponsive, but we put it down to a kind of reserved shynes and found it slightly sweet.
As to the hereford school, there was a report commissined bty the government called the Woods Report, before their academy status was allocated; this report was written by what appears to be a husband and wife team, who although it never says they're anthroposophists, they seem extremely receptive to it; ( previous papers by one or other of them are things like spirituality for head teachers kind of stuff)
The report manages to talk about the whole child, head heart hands, thinking, willing feeling, and mentions anthroposophy, but as a spiritual angle ina way, not the full on belief/religion/cult . It is extraordinarily biased; the schhool has to comprmise a bit, in their curriculum, but not enough; some anthros don't agree obviously, with the compromises. It's scandalous that they ever got these millions of poiunds, and shows that they can pull the wool over the eyes of people very easily.

As someone who previous to my brush with Waldorf schools last week had no knowledge at all of the system...I have to say that we sensed something odd about the school as we drove down their driveway...it was intangeable...just a "feeling" which fair enough, you can't expect everyone to experience...but how anyone can walk into those strange rooms and speak to the strange teachers and not hear alarm bells straight away is beyond me.

The place reeked of paranoia...it was in the teachers reluctance to answer questions..she just started to rearrange the "play logs" or whatever they're called...it was in another staff members gift of a branch of Bay leaves as we entered the building..(Bay is cosidered to be highly protective against bad energy and clairvoyant attack)...we also noticed that the kids seemed slightly "wild"..not free and generous in their play, but a bit crazed...we stumbled upon four kids hiding in a little trod area playing poker for money! They were about 10 or 11 and when they saw us with the teacher who was guiding us they just sniggered and turned back to their gane...weird all round. Maybe this school was a particularly full on one..who knows? I just wonder wether they sensed our concerns right away as they were quite unreceptive to us.

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

Pete:"Clearly - nothing. Some of their ideas were indistinguishable."

Val:Indistinguishable to you.

Oh... OK - Watch for my next post then... wink

Pete:"I have no doubt your children's school is gushing with stuff like that. And I'm quite certain you have never encountered anything like what I describe. Aren't you on the board of directors of that school or something?"

Val: No.

Not affiliated with the school at all?

Pete:"So, is it true that black people "burn from the inside", and that they are spiritually "childlike" - as Steiner declared? Is it true that Jews have "outlived their usefulness" and should abandon "their very way of thinking"? Those MUST be spiritual truths, right?"

Val: "What is true about the nature of man, about society, about man's place in society and when do you want your children to know these truths?"

Pete:"NEVER!!!!"

Val: Never what? What truth don't you want your children exposed to ever?

Pete: "What is true about the nature of man, about society, about man's place in society" - according to STEINER. I would never want my children to learn these "truths" - because as you know, according to Steiner, a man's place in society is dependent on his skin color.

Val: "I was not aware that anthroposophy was based on these tenets though I've often said this very thing about beauty."

Pete:"I'm sorry... you "were" not aware?"

Val: "No need for you to be sorry since my awareness or lack thereof has nothing to do with you."

Except that you are being dishonest about it. If I tell you now that Anthroposophy is based on these tenets, will you be aware of it tomorrow?

Pete:"Because we had this discussion years ago... were you not "aware" then but since then you have been aware? Or did you continue to not be "aware" of these things after discussing them in detail?"

Val: "I've never been aware that anthroposophy was based on these tenets though I am aware that you believe them to be."

So you are aware that those ideas exist in Anthroposophy... Correct? But you deny that they are the basis of Anthroposophy. What then, would you describe as the basis of Anthroposophy. Please be specific - not something obtuse like "love" or "freedom" - What are the basic tenets of Anthroposophy? If you don't know what they are, then you have no reason not to believe me when I tell you. In any case, anyone reading this will recognize you are dodging the question.

Val:"Clearly some people must view the school in the terms northernrefugee39 decribed and still enroll their children? I don't think so. My school doesn't have a 25% turnover rate per year. I assume this doesn't include the graduating class at your school because if it did it actually would be pretty average."

How would that be average? 4 kindergartens and 12 grades - 400 kids plus or minus. 100 kids per year is NOT the size of the graduating class. hmm

Val: "I think your school's number would be more meaningful compared with the same statistic for other private schools in your area."

You have reason to believe other private schools in my area have attrition rates that high? I can assure you they are not.

"Maybe your school is an anomaly or maybe you live in a highly transient area."

Um... no. Do you require more straws to grasp at?

"At any rate, I think as I already mentioned, this is certainly something a prospective parent could ask when considering any private school-what is their retention rate. It's something we took a hard look at when evaluating colleges."

Yes - and of course it helps if the schools themselves don't lie to the parents directly about this.

Val: "I think if you are "creeped out" initially by a Kindergarten as I think Anenome said she was that you wouldn't enroll your child there."

She didn't!

Val: "The question was what's wrong with these people that "fall for it" perhaps vulnerability?"

LYING by Waldorf perhaps?

Pete:"Really? They don't try to hide the weird stuff?"

"I felt initially that there was a clubiness to the Waldorf Community here and you might view this as cultishness."

I have researched in great detail (even checked out library books) what constitutes a cult. Waldorf constitutes a cult.

Val: "I personally have a lot of experience with clubs so that's what it looked like to me."

To a man with a hammer, everything is a nail.

Pete:"How do they explain their views on the things I described in my previous post - late reading, vaccinations, TV and such?"

Val: "IMO, as best they can."

Flatly LYING? That's the best they can do?

Pete:"Do they, for instance, tell parents that the materialistic impulse of Ahriman resides in their TV set and their home computer? Or do they find somebody who recommends turning of the TV and hook their wagons to their arguments?"

Val: "We had a media talk at a monthly parent meeting at least once a year. The observable effects of media on children in the classroom was what was most often discussed. That was what I, as a parent, cared about as well as my children's behavior and well being outside of school, of course."

That's what makes you a wonderful Waldorf parent, then. You are clueless about Waldorf by intention, apparently. Why on earth wouldn't you care, as a parent, that the teachers of your child believe spirits live in television sets? hmm

I guess, as they say, ignorance is bliss.

Val: "This impulse that you speak of did come into discussion when cyberbullying and messaging nude pictures of classmates became big in the public schools here a few years ago."

Really? How did that discussion go? Did Ahriman possess these public school children? Were they no longer human? Did Ahriman cause the cyberbullying?

Val: "I love the turn-off T.V. week campaign and participated in it before I ever heard of Waldorf Education but it took years and was like pulling teeth to get the local Waldorf schools to adopt this program."

Well, how can you turn your TV OFF, if you're not allowed to turn it ON?

"I think people pull their children out when the cost of the education exceeds the perceived value of the education."

Pete:"LMAO... yeah, that's ONE way of putting it."

Val:"It's the bottom line as I see it."

What - that Waldorf education has no value? I would agree.

"I might agree but that was the question."

Pete:"Oh, there's no question. If you are an Anthroposophist, or are in alignment with Anthroposophy and Steiner's views, Waldorf education is for you... absolutely."

Val: "I don't agree."

Really? Then where DO Anthroposophists send their kids to school?

Pete:"If you don't care what kind of academic education your kids get, and are willing to take the risk of you or your kids pissing off a Waldorf teacher or any other Anthro anywhere on the planet - and don't mind having Waldorf, in retaliation interrupt your child's education and friendships at a moment's notice - at any time during their enrollment in school, then Waldorf is also for you."

Val: "I agree-if this describes you-you are definitely in need of an education."

From what you said above, Val, it apparently describes you. You claim you don't want to know the deeper stuff behind Waldorf... so you're what Waldorf schools call a "drop off" parent - you drop your kids off and trust they will get a good education. Either that, or you are again being dishonest about your interest in Anthroposophy. If you have gone to the trouble of educating yourself on Waldorf, why do you seem so reluctant to share with us what you know? BTW, I've taken a peek at your Waldorf school's website. Hopefully you're not getting your information from there...

This parent pledge is from the parent handbook - note the TV pledge at the end:

"I will make every effort to
attend all parent evenings for
my child’s class. I understand
that my attendance helps ensure
that my child’s class has an
informed, active, and mutually
supportive parent body that
understands the curriculum and
its foundation.
I will read SMWS Parent
Information Handbooks to
familiarize myself with the
schools policies and practices.
I will read the bi-weekly Parent
Notes, and communications so
that I am informed about the
programs, policies, practice,
and community life of Shining
Mountain. In addition, I intend
to volunteer or contribute to
the three major school festivals
and Auction in some manner.
I understand that tuition alone
does not meet the school’s
budgeted expenses yearly,
and will strive to participate
in the SMWS Annual Fund,
with a heartfelt gift, to the
best of my ability.
Finally, I am aware of the
school’s policy to limit or
eliminate TV (and similar
activities such as Nintendo,
videos, video games, DVD’s,
movies, etc.) for my children.
I understand that my support
of this policy in my home will
support my child’s healthy
neural, brain and emotional
development and will help cerate
a class environment that fully
supports my child’s development."

Pete:"Clearly - nothing. Some of their ideas were indistinguishable."

Indistinguishable to you.

Pete:"I have no doubt your children's school is gushing with stuff like that. And I'm quite certain you have never encountered anything like what I describe. Aren't you on the board of directors of that school or something?"

No.

Pete:"Would you care to characterize other Waldorf schools in this regard then?"

No.

Pete:"So, is it true that black people "burn from the inside", and that they are spiritually "childlike" - as Steiner declared? Is it true that Jews have "outlived their usefulness" and should abandon "their very way of thinking"? Those MUST be spiritual truths, right?"

"What is true about the nature of man, about society, about man's place in society and when do you want your children to know these truths?"

Pete:"NEVER!!!!"

Never what? What truth don't you want your children exposed to ever?

Pete:"So you agree that the things Steiner described are held as "truth" in Anthroposophy... correct? "(Don't worry, I'm not going to ask you if you're an Anthroposophist )."

Yes.

"I was not aware that anthroposophy was based on these tenets though I've often said this very thing about beauty."

Pete:"I'm sorry... you "were" not aware?"

No need for you to be sorry since my awareness or lack thereof has nothing to do with you.

Pete:"Are you now?"

No.

Pete:"Because we had this discussion years ago... were you not "aware" then but since then you have been aware? Or did you continue to not be "aware" of these things after discussing them in detail?"

"I've never been aware that anthroposophy was based on these tenets though I am aware that you believe them to be.

Pete:"And yet they enroll their children. I wonder why they didn't see the strange stuff initially?"

"No, they don't if that's their view. This is my impression and hence my statement."

Pete:"Clearly some must at some schools - hence the huge turn-overs."

Clearly some people must view the school in the terms northernrefugee39 decribed and still enroll their children? I don't think so. My school doesn't have a 25% turnover rate per year. I assume this doesn't include the graduating class at your school because if it did it actually would be pretty average. I think your school's number would be more meaningful compared with the same statistic for other private schools in your area. Maybe your school is an anomaly or maybe you live in a highly transient area. At any rate, I think as I already mentioned, this is certainly something a prospective parent could ask when considering any private school-what is their retention rate. It's something we took a hard look at when evaluating colleges.

Pete:"People right here have seen the strange stuff... some initially, some not until years later. It often depends on how involved you are in the school. A lot of parents get more and more sucked-in... I mean... involved... as the years go by. That's often when they start to notice (or another parent notices and the word starts getting around)."

I think if you are "creeped out" initially by a Kindergarten as I think Anenome said she was that you wouldn't enroll your child there. The question was what's wrong with these people that "fall for it" perhaps vulnerability?

Pete:"Could it be Waldorf teachers do their best to hide it?"

"Certainly within the realm of possibility though not very probable IMO."

Pete:"Really? They don't try to hide the weird stuff?"

I felt initially that there was a clubiness to the Waldorf Community here and you might view this as cultishness. I personally have a lot of experience with clubs so that's what it looked like to me. And my response was screw that-if you won't answer me to my satisfaction then I'll find someone who will. And so I did. I can only think of one time that this happened and my eldest was in first grade or K at the time.

Pete:"How do they explain their views on the things I described in my previous post - late reading, vaccinations, TV and such?"

IMO, as best they can.

Pete:"Do they, for instance, tell parents that the materialistic impulse of Ahriman resides in their TV set and their home computer? Or do they find somebody who recommends turning of the TV and hook their wagons to their arguments?"

We had a media talk at a monthly parent meeting at least once a year. The observable effects of media on children in the classroom was what was most often discussed. That was what I, as a parent, cared about as well as my children's behavior and well being outside of school, of course.

This impulse that you speak of did come into discussion when cyberbullying and messaging nude pictures of classmates became big in the public schools here a few years ago.

I love the turn-off T.V. week campaign and participated in it before I ever heard of Waldorf Education but it took years and was like pulling teeth to get the local Waldorf schools to adopt this program.

"I think people pull their children out when the cost of the education exceeds the perceived value of the education."

Pete:"LMAO... yeah, that's ONE way of putting it."

It's the bottom line as I see it.

"I might agree but that was the question."

Pete:"Oh, there's no question. If you are an Anthroposophist, or are in alignment with Anthroposophy and Steiner's views, Waldorf education is for you... absolutely."

I don't agree.

Pete:"If you don't care what kind of academic education your kids get, and are willing to take the risk of you or your kids pissing off a Waldorf teacher or any other Anthro anywhere on the planet - and don't mind having Waldorf, in retaliation interrupt your child's education and friendships at a moment's notice - at any time during their enrollment in school, then Waldorf is also for you."

I agree-if this describes you-you are definitely in need of an education.

To be fair, Diana, has ANY Anthroposophist, to your knowledge, answered that question? None has to my knowledge. Oh wait! What am I saying... yes, they have indeed answered that question many times... the answer: "Steiner is difficult." hmm

Pete asked Isenhart:

'So, is it true that black people "burn from the inside", and that they are spiritually "childlike" - as Steiner declared? Is it true that Jews have "outlived their usefulness" and should abandon "their very way of thinking"? Those MUST be spiritual truths, right?"'

Isenhart replied:

'What is true about the nature of man, about society, about man's place in society and when do you want your children to know these'

That's a pretty telling reply, Isenhart - the simple fact that you don't want to answer that question.

"What, pray tell holds you back?"

Clearly - nothing. grin

Some of their ideas were indistinguishable.

"Yep, these are all over the literature for my children's school and I haven't encountered what I would characterise as the gross lack of integrity that you describe."

I have no doubt your children's school is gushing with stuff like that. And I'm quite certain you have never encountered anything like what I describe. Aren't you on the board of directors of that school or something? hmm

Would you care to characterize other Waldorf schools in this regard then?

"So, is it true that black people "burn from the inside", and that they are spiritually "childlike" - as Steiner declared? Is it true that Jews have "outlived their usefulness" and should abandon "their very way of thinking"? Those MUST be spiritual truths, right?"

"What is true about the nature of man, about society, about man's place in society and when do you want your children to know these truths?"

shock

NEVER!!!! So you agree that the things Steiner described are held as "truth" in Anthroposophy... correct? (Don't worry, I'm not going to ask you if you're an Anthroposophist grin

).

"I was not aware that anthroposophy was based on these tenets though I've often said this very thing about beauty."

I'm sorry... you "were" not aware? Are you now? Because we had this discussion years ago... were you not "aware" then but since then you have been aware? Or did you continue to not be "aware" of these things after discussing them in detail? hmm

"And yet they enroll their children. I wonder why they didn't see the strange stuff initially?"

"No, they don't if that's their view. This is my impression and hence my statement."

Clearly some must at some schools - hence the huge turn-overs. People right here have seen the strange stuff... some initially, some not until years later. It often depends on how involved you are in the school. A lot of parents get more and more sucked-in... I mean... involved... as the years go by. That's often when they start to notice (or another parent notices and the word starts getting around).

"Could it be Waldorf teachers do their best to hide it?"

"Certainly within the realm of possibility though not very probable IMO."

Really? They don't try to hide the weird stuff? How do they explain their views on the things I described in my previous post - late reading, vaccinations, TV and such? Do they, for instance, tell parents that the materialistic impulse of Ahriman resides in their TV set and their home computer? Or do they find somebody who recommends turning of the TV and hook their wagons to their arguments?

"I think people pull their children out when the cost of the education exceeds the perceived value of the education."

LMAO... yeah, that's ONE way of putting it.

"I might agree but that was the question."

Oh, there's no question. If you are an Anthroposophist, or are in alignment with Anthroposophy and Steiner's views, Waldorf education is for you... absolutely.

If you don't care what kind of academic education your kids get, and are willing to take the risk of you or your kids pissing off a Waldorf teacher or any other Anthro anywhere on the planet - and don't mind having Waldorf, in retaliation interrupt your child's education and friendships at a moment's notice - at any time during their enrollment in school, then Waldorf is also for you. wink

"I'm tempted to add... "of Hitler"."

What, pray tell holds you back?

"As I said, I think some people feel that they have found an educational environment that upholds the same values as they do. I think that's an attraction."

"I don't doubt that. What were those again? "Goodness, truth, beauty"..."

Yep, these are all over the literature for my children's school and I haven't encountered what I would characterise as the gross lack of integrity that you describe.

"So, is it true that black people "burn from the inside", and that they are spiritually "childlike" - as Steiner declared? Is it true that Jews have "outlived their usefulness" and should abandon "their very way of thinking"? Those MUST be spiritual truths, right?"

What is true about the nature of man, about society, about man's place in society and when do you want your children to know these truths?

"They are the tenets that Anthroposophy is based on. I guess "beauty" is in the eyes of the beholder."

I was not aware that anthroposophy was based on these tenets though I've often said this very thing about beauty.

"I really can't imagine any parent seeing the elements that you saw: "dire, wishy washy, weird, ghastly, cold, dispassionate, strange, and bizarre" enrolling their child."

"And yet they enroll their children. I wonder why they didn't see the strange stuff initially?"

No, they don't if that's their view. This is my impression and hence my statement.

"Could it be Waldorf teachers do their best to hide it?"

Certainly within the realm of possibility though not very probable IMO.

"At my kid's school, they lose 25% of their students every year... do you really think all those parents are pulling their kids because they're getting what they signed up for?"

I think people pull their children out when the cost of the education exceeds the perceived value of the education.

"As far as Steiner's sentiments go they don't strike me one way or another."

"Doesn't matter if they "strike you" or not-"

I might agree but that was the question.

Anenome, you're not interrupting. Please ask whatever you like. You asked:

"I wonder if someone could tell me...where does the "Waldorf" come from...why are they not just called Steiner schools."

They are called "Steiner" schools in may places around the world. The name Waldorf came from the first school which was in the Waldorf Astoria cigarette factory. It was initially a school for the children of the factory workers.

"and why are the walls all painted peach...I understand that it is to imitate the colour of flesh..but why is that supposed to be good?"

Steiner believed (and thus Waldorf teachers believe) that children, before their teeth change (age 7ish) are undergoing a process of "incarnation" - that is their mature spiritual being hasn't fully taken residence in their physical body. The flesh colored walls are intended to support the process of incarnation.

"And why did the Kindergarten leader I met have a big peach apron on? Do they all have those?"

More "fleshy" stuff... and no, I don't think all kindergarten teachers have those (at least not that I've seen... they certainly may for all I know).

"many of Steiner's stances on anti semitism and race lean to the right"

I'm tempted to add... "of Hitler".

"As I said, I think some people feel that they have found an educational environment that upholds the same values as they do. I think that's an attraction."

I don't doubt that. What were those again? "Goodness, truth, beauty"...

So, is it true that black people "burn from the inside", and that they are spiritually "childlike" - as Steiner declared? Is it true that Jews have "outlived their usefulness" and should abandon "their very way of thinking"? Those MUST be spiritual truths, right? They are the tenets that Anthroposophy is based on. I guess "beauty" is in the eyes of the beholder.

"I really can't imagine any parent seeing the elements that you saw: "dire, wishy washy, weird, ghastly, cold, dispassionate, strange, and bizarre" enrolling their child."

And yet they enroll their children. hmm

I wonder why they didn't see the strange stuff initially? Could it be Waldorf teachers do their best to hide it? At my kid's school, they lose 25% of their students every year... do you really think all those parents are pulling their kids because they're getting what they signed up for?

"As far as Steiner's sentiments go they don't strike me one way or another."

Doesn't matter if they "strike you" or not - and maybe you are indeed one of those parents who is in complete denial of the influence of Anthroposophy in Waldorf education (I don't believe you are however wink

) - the FACT is, Steiner's sentiments are the heart and soul of Waldorf education. I think it's best for parents to get a clear picture of what they were.

"Oh, isenhart, yes, I do think the schools are based on a traditional germanic style( though obviously their content is anthroposophical, spiritual/occult science based).
I find the dictatorial, non questioning, the teacher's word as sacrosanct very rigid. Steiner's whole view is based on authoritarianism and elitism.
As to being right wing, many of Steiner's stances on anti semitism and race lean to the right,( many anthroposophists had sympathy with the nazis, that is well known,),in many people's, mine included, opinion, the whole belief system of anthroposophy, that people are divided into lower and higher races, that spirituality is directly related to skin colour, that humankind reincarnates in to higher and higher racial forms, and souls which fail to progress are relegated to a lower race- well this is an abhorrent belief,system, and many woulkd call it right wing. Perhaps you don't isenhart. Perhaps you have still to wake up to the fact that this belief about race is racist- even tho' anthroposophists argue the fact that Steiner eventually meant race to be superfluous in the future epochs where spirituality is all.
Steiner's definition of the word "freedom" is "spiritual activity" which projects a rather different slant on the idea of "education towards freedom" which he advocated. His ideas of social renewal and the three fold social order, along with biodynamic agriculture which is linked to "eco fascism" and the German national Democratic party are far right. There are many far right adherents to anthroposophy today- he environmental group World league for the Protection of Life for instance.
Formulaic you ask? Absolutely and completely , of course it is, look at all the ritual, symbolism, ceremonial procedures,candle lighting etc, fromm the morning verse/prayer, to the stages of things in the curriculum done at particular times; that's partly why it's so indescribingly boring for the kids, same old Steiner formula regurgitated all over the world in every Steiner school.
Does that answer your question isenhart?"

Well, it was more of a question of when you said you saw the opposite of liberal, left-wing, progressive, and creative could that opposite be expressed in these terms. I think staid could work for the opposite of creative too.

"Oh, Einstein, thanks for educating me; I have great gaps in my knowledge"

You're welcome.

"I echo entirely what Pete has said about "truth". I don't find the watery Steiner paintings particularly beautiful; aesthetically and creatively I find them fairly dire; give me Piero Della Francesca or Bonnard any day....other aspects of beauty within the education, the architecture? That curved pseudo art nouveau feel? I prefer classical simplicity, the geometric form, to the "natural" flow form and curved edges; it's quite subjective "beauty" isn't it? I certainly don't believe Steiner had a hold on bringing a harmony which induces pleasure with an idea of beauty with all those wishy washy colours and curved edges. The singing- that can be beautiful yes, the music, if the children were actually taught music, rather than having to intuit much of the time. Eurythmy I find bizarre, and certainly not beautiful, although I'm sure it's meant to be; at the school where ours were there was a world renoun eurythmy school and courses, so we did get to see it done "properly", I found it weird and ghastly, it creeped me out. It seems a cold, dispassionate and strange form of movement and communication.

The "goodness" apparently so pervading the Steiner philosophy is really not there in the schools as far as we saw- there are elements of it, people try hard to be "good", but there are also extraordinary acts of cruelty, by teachers and by child to child, ignored by adults. Steiner's views on people with disability , and races he perceived to be not as advanced as the aryan one doesn't strike me as "good" sentiments, do they to you isenhart?"

As I said, I think some people feel that they have found an educational environment that upholds the same values as they do. I think that's an attraction. I really can't imagine any parent seeing the elements that you saw: "dire, wishy washy, weird, ghastly, cold, dispassionate, strange, and bizarre" enrolling their child. As far as Steiner's sentiments go they don't strike me one way or another.

I am following your debate with huge interest...sorry to interrupt again blush

but I wonder if someone could tell me...where does the "Waldorf" come from...why are they not just called Steiner schools....and why are the walls all painted peach...I understand that it is to imitate the colour of flesh..but why is that supposed to be good? And why did the Kindergarten leader I met have a big peach apron on? Do they all have those?

Also...what about the Hereford Waldorf school which is set to become an "Academy" and so gain public funding in the U.K.? shock

IS that school as severe as the one I visited I wonder?

"No isenhart, "truth" is not one of them.
In fact Waldorf is built on dishonesty. It started with Steiner (I can get the quotes if you like) and continues today with Waldorf's dishonesty toward parents, prospective parents, students, former students (particularly), teachers, former teachers, even investors ("Giving" programs). Waldorf is dishonest from the get-go. They are dishonest about Anthroposophy's influence in Waldorf, they are dishonest about what they teach and why, they are dishonest about the rituals they perform and their reasons for them, they are dishonest about their reasons for late reading, for Eurythmy, for non-vaccinations, for no TV... they HAVE to be dishonest because if they were honest about these things, the only people in Waldorf would be Anthroposophists. Dishonesty is in everything they do... and... um... where's the "beauty" in that?"

Well, as you know, this has not been my experience with Waldorf Educators and I am sorry that it has been yours.

Oh, isenhart, yes, I do think the schools are based on a traditional germanic style( though obviously their content is anthroposophical, spiritual/occult science based).
I find the dictatorial, non questioning, the teacher's word as sacrosanct very rigid. Steiner's whole view is based on authoritarianism and elitism.
As to being right wing, many of Steiner's stances on anti semitism and race lean to the right,( many anthroposophists had sympathy with the nazis, that is well known,),in many people's, mine included, opinion, the whole belief system of anthroposophy, that people are divided into lower and higher races, that spirituality is directly related to skin colour, that humankind reincarnates in to higher and higher racial forms, and souls which fail to progress are relegated to a lower race- well this is an abhorrent belief,system, and many woulkd call it right wing. Perhaps you don't isenhart. Perhaps you have still to wake up to the fact that this belief about race is racist- even tho' anthroposophists argue the fact that Steiner eventually meant race to be superfluous in the future epochs where spirituality is all.
Steiner's definition of the word "freedom" is "spiritual activity" which projects a rather different slant on the idea of "education towards freedom" which he advocated. His ideas of social renewal and the three fold social order, along with biodynamic agriculture which is linked to "eco fascism" and the German national Democratic party are far right. There are many far right adherents to anthroposophy today- he environmental group World league for the Protection of Life for instance.
Formulaic you ask? Absolutely and completely , of course it is, look at all the ritual, symbolism, ceremonial procedures,candle lighting etc, fromm the morning verse/prayer, to the stages of things in the curriculum done at particular times; that's partly why it's so indescribingly boring for the kids, same old Steiner formula regurgitated all over the world in every Steiner school.
Does that answer your question isenhart?
Quoptes and references on request. smile

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

"Goodness, beauty, truth."

No isenhart, "truth" is not one of them. In fact Waldorf is built on dishonesty. It started with Steiner (I can get the quotes if you like) and continues today with Waldorf's dishonesty toward parents, prospective parents, students, former students (particularly), teachers, former teachers, even investors ("Giving" programs). Waldorf is dishonest from the get-go. They are dishonest about Anthroposophy's influence in Waldorf, they are dishonest about what they teach and why, they are dishonest about the rituals they perform and their reasons for them, they are dishonest about their reasons for late reading, for Eurythmy, for non-vaccinations, for no TV... they HAVE to be dishonest because if they were honest about these things, the only people in Waldorf would be Anthroposophists. Dishonesty is in everything they do... and... um... where's the "beauty" in that? hmm

"What would you say then were the main ideals waldorf/Steiner education espouses? Let's see if we can agree on any."

Goodness, beauty, truth.

Do you believe gnomes and "elemental beings" exist isenhart?

I believe elemental forces exist, northernrefugee39 even though they have never manifested as a gnome for me. Thanks, btw, for spelling my name correctly. We have a mom in our local Waldorf school with a similar sounding first name as mine with the last name of 'Isenhart' so I always use a little 'I' and she uses another name entirely.

"Even me?"

Even you.

"We chose Steiner school for our kids, as liberal, left wing, progressive( we think!) creative parents."

I know many Waldorf parents that would describe themselves in these same terms.

"What we found could not have been more opposite, as has been said so many times on these threads."

So the education is conservative, right-wing, traditional, formulaic?

"Steiner schools don't stand for the things they purport to. They are schools of anthroposophy, (and racist)"

Steiner schools, as far as I know, don't purport to be liberal, left wing, or progressive. They may purport to provide an innovative and/or productive approach to education. They are schools based on anthroposophy which you state is a racist ideology.

"So who's is the quote? Is it Steiner?"

That was the same fellow who said, and you may have heard this one given that your family was in a Steiner school, "If you want your children to be brilliant, read them fairly tales. If you want them to be geniuses, read them more fairy tales." His name was Albert Einstein.

Now Northernrefugee39, you'll have to forgive me as I state the obvious: A.E.I.O.U.

What would you say then were the main ideals waldorf/Steiner education espouses? Let's see if we can agree on any.

Do you believe gnomes and "elemental beings" exist isenhart?

Even me? We chose Steiner school for our kids, as liberal, left wing, progressive( we think!) creative parents.
What we found could not have been more opposite, as has been said so many times on these threads.
Steiner schools don't stand for the things they purport to. They are schools of anthroposophy, (and racist)

So who's is the quote? Is it Steiner?

You're welcome, northernrefugee39! Of course lots of people identify with the ideals that Waldorf Education espouses including, perhaps, even you. As for me, I don't have anythng against human efforts, possessions, outward success, or luxury nor do I hold the non-humble in contempt.

Isenhart, you'll find that there are people who have those values who aren't anthroposophists too.
Anthroposophists do not have a monoploy on kindness, beauty , truth, ( truth?- hmmm, lots of lies told to me and others by anthroposophists....kindness? , I would question the lack of human kindness at Steiner schools)) and who are non materialistic too.

You know what? They have humility too.

Your quote (is that Steiner, or someone else?) seems to typify a kind of complacent superiority, which encapsulates for me at any rate, the idea that some people have found righteousness, while the rest of us who can't see or find it, are comtemptable or to be pitied.
Thanks for you post, it illustrates much about the anthrposophical view.

Anenome, oh those bloody gnomes. In the class gnomey gardens, (and in the homes of the camphill families), the teachers and parents move the gnomes around, and ell the kids they're real... up until they are at least 10/11 yrs old hmm

.
Of course, the adults believe in gnomes, sprites, sylphs etc. I had a serious conversation with a woman who saw one....Steiner called them elemental beings; they live in the earth, and push plants up through the soil. They really believe it.

They didn't have books in kinde when my daughter was there, or in the class room until they were much older. Books are Arhimanic( evil in other words) not spiritual. All their stories were told by the teachers, nothing bu the spoken word, up to the age at least of 9. When they were beginning to read, there were some battered oxford reading tree amazingly enough, which they were allowed to look at as a kind of treat. I suppose the "magic key" was allowable as it kept alive the idea of magic other worlds....

Yes Pete, the rocking chair and silk drapes, to calm the kids when they'd been whacking each other with sticks in the case of our kinde.

"what I can't really understand is how people fall for it all after they visit? it was so obviously strange and "wrong" that we high tailed it out of there as fast as we could...do some people just fall for it bcause they are vulnerable perhaps?"

I think some people resonate with the mood, be it reverence or whatever, and feel that they have found a learning environment for their child that upholds the same ideals and/or values that they do:

"The ideals which have lighted my way, and time after time have given me new courage to face life cheerfully, have been Kindness, Beauty, and Truth. The trite subjects of human efforts, possessions, outward success, luxury have always seemed to me contemptible."

"Can anyone tell me why there were curtained off alcoves in the kindergarten...with adult sized rocking chairs in them?"

Well, this is either where they strap the children when they are bad (just kidding, that only happened once, no wait twice hmm

) or they take children in there to rock them when they are too energetic (probably).

"Also..I have to ask...do you know what story books the children get read to them?"

Certainly nothing modern. It will be Grimms or Anthroposophically themed stuff (comes to mind The 7 Year Old Wonder Book comes to mind).

The point is to implant archetypal images in the children's imagination. So knights and dragons (good and evil) prepare the kids for Michaelmas - the Steiner festival to Saint Mich-a-el. Grimms fairy tales provide plenty of these as well (and they especially seem to focus on the ones with the hapless father who would betray his own children for the love of a witch... but let's not get into that angry

Northern...the gnomes freaked me out...they looked so cute in their little wooden bowl and when I picked one up and saw it had no face...eeew! Also..I have to ask...do you know what story books the children get read to them? Are they allowed "normal" books...like The Tiger Who Came to Tea...or Cinderella? Or are the books all Steiner ones? I saw one called "The children of the forest" or similar..it had little toadstool hatted sprites or something on the cover..it looked very Steiner-ish... hmm

Anenome, the teacher had nothing that she wanted to say- that'a the way they avoid awkward questions, and that's how they teach, not answereing the kids, or deflecting the gist; it's meant to keep awake the sense of awe and reverence, for the kids, belief in fairies and gnomes etc. For the adults it's just avoiding answering....
We were lied to, about the anthroposophical nature of the education, and what was going on in the classroom. We were sold a lie basically, and it was perpetuated. Also, one so wants it to be ok, that really you're going for what the education isn't in a way; no tests, creative, etc etc. Once they're there, you so want it to be ok, and don't want to have to move the children again.
The art... copied washy stuff. Hardly any colours allowed, no lines allowed, to remind the kids of the spirit world they've recently come from of course....

Northern...unemotional about hits the nail on the head...my husband tried talking to the main teacher and her lack of response was strange...she sort of had nothing to say...what I can't really understand is how people fall for it all after they visit? it was so obviously strange and "wrong" that we high tailed it out of there as fast as we could...do some people just fall for it bcause they are vulnerable perhaps? The first thing that struck me as wrong was all the pictures on the walls that the kids had done looked like they were done by the same person...I really feel for those kids

Davy, I know an anthroposohic family who travel about 160 mile round trip at £60 per session ( which they can really ill afford) to see a " natural" dentist- but whether or not that's anthroposophic I don't know.
The mother in the family was in tears when one of her kids had to wear glasses because of a squint, and also said that they wouldn't need to go to the dentist if they didn't eat honey( they aren't allowed sugar, so the kids steal honey from the jar).
This woman was severely ill on one occasion, with a really bad infection. She had blood pouring out of her ears according to her kids( who we drove to school every day). She holed herself up in her bedroom with herbal tea. They aren't registered with a doctor, and in the end, the dad drove her to casualty because he was so worried about her; but it was a secret- no-one was to be told she'd "sucummed" to modern medicine.

Hello Anenome. Great description of..every kindy I've ever been in!
Steiner meant the walls to be skin coloured. werr, yes, as ease/Davy says, not all skins of course..... There are some sickly quotes of his somewhere.
The children sound desperate for your normality and warmth I should think.
The atmosphere is often very unemotional ( emotions aren't "spiritual"), so not much laughter,or smiling, it's all bland , false calm.....

Thanks Pete and Easonline ...I think you're right Pete...it was somewhat "church-like" in that kindergarten room...the funny thing was that there was another Mother there on a visit and all of the kids were SO attracted to her and to myself...as if they sensed a different type of "energy"...indeed, the teachers were a bit like hippy Stepford Wives..on auto-pilot or something.
Also, the whole school and grounds had an air of neglect about it...overgrown vegetable patches and the grass on the roof of the purpose built kindy building was dead..it looked like it had been strimmed for our visit but the dead grass left there...I'm not sure why I feel the need to try and make sense of it all...maybe I feel like we had a lucky esape or maybe I feel like these schools need to be watched more closely by the authorities.

Can anyone tell me why there were curtained off alcoves in the kindergarten...with adult sized rocking chairs in them?

Hello Anenome
I'd go along with Pete's message.
So far as the the atmosphere goes, might I suggest that what you encountered was an environment designed for reverence? If that seems close to what you found, I'd further suggest that it might help a bit were these places to indicate just what it is we are supposed to revere in the first place. Better clarify that what I'm getting at is indeed reverence- a good way beyond respect.
Whaddya think?
The wall colour is universal- in the nursery areas the peach/magnolia colour is there as being the same colour as human flesh according to Steiner, which raises a whole new can of worms should your family background have any conections from (say) south of the Alps/Danube, east of The Urals-maybe closer.
Davy

Hi Anenome, and welcome!
You wrote:
Hi...I hope noboody minds me just joining in this discussion?"

Too late now... grin

"Cave like and with little daylight due to the tiny round windows...it was purpose built and when we walked in there was a strangely overwhelming atmosphere that we still cannot put our fingers on..what WAS that?"

Boredom?

"What's with the colour scheme? Does it have some signifigance?"

Oh YES. You can go into ANY Waldorf classroom - anywhere in the world... call me at home and all I need to ask you is what grade you are in before telling you the color of the room.

" All those watery peachy pinks and the covered up lights on the walls? It felt very odd...there were paintings of Knights and dragons on the walls and to be honest it was like being in a Stephen King or JAmes Herbert novel....can anyone enlighten me as to why the atmosphere was so strange?"

It's apparently appealing to people. The subdued lighting, covering of windows is intended to reduce stimulus to the children. The free-flowing EVERYTHING, un-square door and window frames... and the decor of knights and kings and crap... dolls without faces, (talk about Stephen King-like) - the lack of detail is intended to promote imagination in kids. It's not really good to have kids thinking about things they have seen - better for them to go inward to imagine everything they need. hmm

"Has anyone ever heard of anything like eurythmy for raging toothache? "

Well, curative Eurythmy is prescribed for straightening teeth that would normally need braces. Of course curative Eurythmy will take longer to straighten the teeth than braces, but by the time the child is 20, their teeth should be straight... that is, if they've been doing it right all those years. And, of course, if by 20 the teeth aren't straight... give it a couple of more years. Adults with braces are very fetching BTW. grin

Hi...I hope noboody minds me just joining in this discussion? I found it the other day ...a few days before my husband and I were to visit a Steiner school in Wales for our 3 year old. I decided not to mention any of the scary things I read about to hubby..or to think about them myself as I wanted SO badly to have found the right school. Well! We were to be blunt, freaked out by what we saw. The kindergarten building was SCARY! Cave like and with little daylight due to the tiny round windows...it was purpose built and when we walked in there was a strangely overwhelming atmosphere that we still cannot put our fingers on..what WAS that? I actually almost burst into tears in the first minute of being there for reasons which I still could not explain..the teachers were intense and the kids subdued....my daughter was unimpressed with the all natural toys and wanted to get out of the place. What's with the colour scheme? Does it have some signifigance? All those watery peachy pinks and the covered up lights on the walls? It felt very odd...there were paintings of Knights and dragons on the walls and to be honest it was like being in a Stephen King or JAmes Herbert novel....can anyone enlighten me as to why the atmosphere was so strange?

Woops Zooey.I missed you out blush

Probably you are the most likely to know of any such thing.
Davy

Northern, Janni, Pete, Diana, or anyone else:-
I know this will seem like a daft question, but it came up in conversation with a fellow outcast wink

:
We were chatting about all the wacko treatments, meds, remedies and the like we had encountered, when we got to laughing about anthroposophical dentistry. Then we realised that for all we had never encountered such a thing, that didn't mean that no such discipline exists.
Has anyone ever heard of anything like eurythmy for raging toothache?
Personally, my own experience is that the quickest remedy for a raging toothache is to welly yer thumb with a hammer, with all the f, b, and c words combining to conjure up some cosmic incantation that makes your tooth not hurt any more grin

But just in case anyone has heard of anthro dentistry...
Davy

Does anyone know Steiner schools in Suffolk/Norfolk?

They had half day school or ages at the school ours were. Many of the parents were self employed, didn't work, were Camphill parents so were at home any way, or had co workers, students, to babysit, or were teachers in some capacity at the school. people like us, who were self employed and sometimes had rushes of work, were in the minority, and if we couldn't make a work day, or a shift at envelope stuffing, sometimes from 8-11 in the evening, we were frowned upon; a definite atmosphere....but we paid over the odds for fees, more than we were meant to because we were so constantly asked. hmm

From Northern's mothering quote
"... preparing a simple altar as a powerful symbol for your birth."

Isn't it a bit too late for that? Or is it some sort of spiritual re-birth? grin

On being home alone--yes, waldorf schools seem to end school-day early, I remember that was quite an issue. The same goes for kindergarten. First, they don't have childcare for children younger than 4. Second, even after that, the kids need to be picked up at 1 pm, latest. Now, this was when I was a kid, ie, a while ago. This is all a bit weird, seeing that the reason for day care is for the parents to be able to go to work.

I don't think it's that uncommon for kids to be home alone after school when they're 7 or older. 6 perhaps not.

Oh I see. Gosh, that's very unusual , to leave kids alone at that age; I actually think it's against the law in UK isn't it?

I think anthroposophy is more "mainstream" in Germany, more people are anthroposophists. And there are more Steiner schools; obvious really since they origionated there. But I also know that they don't talk about anthroposophy unless they feel you are open to their beliefs, or ready to be helped onto the spiritual path. This was certainly the case in the anthroposophic community where our kids went to school.

ps. lived in a german anthroposophz oriented family for a year but never heard of guardian angels in that way. how interesting.

what i ment was, that whereas in england generally kids are picked up from school and not left alone at home, in germany or czech rep it is fairly normal for children of primary age /6+/ to come home after school and be on their own until the parents come home. thats why it is so difficult for parents in england to work around it because the school hours /system comes from a different cultural backround.

Theree were alot of families who left quite young kids alone at home at the school ours went to, it used to shock me....I thought they were really casual about it, until I realised they totally believed in guardian angels and karma.

catepilarr,

The kids don't need "looking after" at Steiner school, they have guardian angels to do that.

northernrefugee39 an janni -maybe it's because it comes from germany where th kids look after themselves after school? doesnt help you, i know ;)

And it always got to me that hey wanted money at every turn, but if you apologised for not being able to do a gardening job because of work, it was really frowned upon.

BTW this is one of the funniest threads I've ever participaed on mumsnet
My dh is craking up. he often wonders what keeps me on here for so long.....

Yep, lucky guy, Northern smile

Caterpillar - our experience was similar to that described by Northern. It can be very difficult if you have more than one child at the school and they have different start/finish times. In my experience, nothing was set up for the convenience of the parents.

For Monsieur Pomfrey, some useful articles on mothering.com

"The Necessity of Marriage Maintenance,
Surfing With Daddy: A Mother Surrenders,
Where, Oh Where, Has our Sex Life Gone?,
Putting the Naked Back in Marriage"

From Mothering
"Mommy and Me Meditations

I am dashing barefoot through a dew-filled mountainside....
..Oh, the sweet smell of apple juice mixed with dirty diapers—not exactly the perfect compliment to lotus position, but nonetheless the way I start my day."

OOhh why didn't I think of one of these

"Birth Altar

Get your home ready for the new baby by preparing a simple altar as a powerful symbol for your birth. Choose a place on a dresser, a windowsill, or a low table. Cover the area with a beautiful cloth or leave it bare. Add some candles and incense. Look for some interesting rocks when you go for a walk. Maybe you have some seashells you’ve collected in the past.

Select items that make you feel good and strong. Or choose objects that are meaningful to you in a religious or spiritual way. Include a small fountain, photos of beloved ancestors and inspirational sayings, if you like. Think of your altar as the place to put all of the symbolic objects that add to your confidence and feelings of strength as a birthing woman."

Barking

I do miss your Steiner input when you're not here...... I was always quite intrigued by Joseph Beuys, went right off him when I learned he was an anthro though....

catepilarr here they start with half days, ending before lunch until they're about 8/9, then they start one full day, gradually building up to complete full days all week when they're 12/13'ish. Our 11 yr old was still half day on Friday when we pulled her out.
It's one of the reasons that it's so hard to have a job when you're kids are at Steiner, along with all the endless fundraising and cleaning, gardening etc you're expected to do. But of course they're fee paying schools ( the one ours were at was means tested though) so they also expect your dosh. Not quite joined up thinking that.
Although I always loved the extra time with the children to be honest, it was a bonus for us, the half days, but hard to fit work in, tiring...

hi,just wondering how much time at school does a kid spend at school, when attending a waldorf school? is it like in germany, that there are no lessons after lunch most of the days?

Hang in there Janni, Isenhart is recharging her spiritual batteries. She uses, I guess you would call a slightly Beuys like chamber, where she covers herself in bee's breastmilk and gnome gizzum while drinking the tears of forgotten steiner children, ready to fight another day.

Pete: 'Yeah... The Waldorf Survivors group might insist on some credibility for membership. I don't think the First Class has any such requirement.'
Pete - Now that's what I call first class grin

Barking - now you're messing with my mind grin

"Yeah, Pete you're right-they're not going to let just anyone in-you for instance would not be allowed-unless, of course, you saw the error of your ways, because you would not be considered to demonstrate anthroposophical work."

Actually, there was a time when I probably could have gotten in. shock

The difference, I suppose, is that I would never want to. In actuality, Anthroposophists are not doing Anthroposophical work anymore. Maybe they should listen to me and reconsider the error of their ways.

"Kinda reminds me of the Waldorf Survivors group in that they are self-selecting. But see, I'd let me in to the Survivors Group just to hear my story and I'd let you in to First Class just because you're such a piece of work."

Waldorf Survivors is very serious stuff. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't fit in. On the other hand, the First Class is warmed-over Steiner nonsense... I'm pretty sure I wouldn't fit in.

"On the other hand, PeteK, where are all these people that have been rejected from First Class membership?"

I don't know? Do they advertise that they were rejected? hmm

"When I applied to the secret upper eschelon of the Waldorf Critics Group I was rejected so now I can never be trotted out as "An American fellow Survivor (see Further Information page: Waldorf-Anthroposophy-Steiner-Survivors-Only) formerly quite heavily involved with Anthroposophy to kindly offer (my) observations and recollections" which is again, just too bad, because I'm certain that Diana has never heard my story as I've never told it."

Yeah... The Waldorf Survivors group might insist on some credibility for membership. I don't think the First Class has any such requirement. grin

Good for them, good for Diana, and good for you, Janni. Once again-carry on! We all do lead such busy lives but no one's stopping you from speaking plainly, in a hurtful, helpful, or extremely funny way.

It is a gorgeous day hear so I shall open all my windows.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhh

Barking - wonder how long 'MonsieurPomfrey' will stick around, unless he is of the (tie)-dyed in the wool, be-sandalled and heavily bearded variety of Steiner male ...

"Isenhart - the climate on this thread is typical of mumsnet. It has nothing to do with Diana, although she fits right in. On mumsnet, people don't have time for nonsense, riddles, mind games. They speak plainly and are answered plainly - sometimes the answers hurt, usually they're helpful, often they're extremely funny."

Good for them, good for Diana, and good for you, Janni. Once again-carry on! We all do lead such busy lives but no one's stopping you from speaking plainly, in a hurtful, helpful, or extremely funny way.

"And if you simply cut and paste that post and follow it with a cryptic little message of your own I shall scream so loudly you will hear me all the way across the Atlantic."

It is a gorgeous day hear so I shall open all my windows.

Isenhart - the climate on this thread is typical of mumsnet. It has nothing to do with Diana, although she fits right in. On mumsnet, people don't have time for nonsense, riddles, mind games. They speak plainly and are answered plainly - sometimes the answers hurt, usually they're helpful, often they're extremely funny.

And if you simply cut and paste that post and follow it with a cryptic little message of your own I shall scream so loudly you will hear me all the way across the Atlantic.

"Isenhart - your refer to a tainbow felted bag of misery."

Should have been "rainbow" mea culpa!

By barking on Thu 01-May-08 18:41:24

Oh sorry Pete wasn't saying 'chips' to you - I was saying it to the felted bag of misery before you.

By northernrefugee39 on Thu 01-May-08 19:43:46

Barking rainbow felted bag surely....

"I can only conclude you are connected to Eva/TheBee in some way as that was a little dig I made at him many moons ago....."

This would be a false conclusion.

Diana - I think I love you smile

From poster MadamePomfrey on mothering.com:

Waldorf joke from my husband:

How many Waldorf moms does it take to open a can of biodynamically grown chick peas?

Three:
~one to open the can with her hand-carved maple-handled, hammered-steel bladed can opener (imported from Germany, of course);
~ one to strum the harp while debating the value of chick peas in the spiritual incarnation of the child's three-fold nature - or perhaps just the gastric digestion of the child's three-part lunch!
~ and a third to welcome the peas by singing a little, pentatonic, chick pea song.

Isenhart - your refer to a tainbow felted bag of misery.
I can only conclude you are connected to Eva/TheBee in some way as that was a little dig I made at him many moons ago.....

On the other hand, PeteK, where are all these people that have been rejected from First Class membership?

When I applied to the secret upper eschelon of the Waldorf Critics Group I was rejected so now I can never be trotted out as "An American fellow Survivor (see Further Information page: Waldorf-Anthroposophy-Steiner-Survivors-Only) formerly quite heavily involved with Anthroposophy to kindly offer (my) observations and recollections" which is again, just too bad, because I'm certain that Diana has never heard my story as I've never told it.

"Isenhart, Is being on mumsnet part of your special' work'?

No.

"You're not winning any of us over, not very first class, more like third."

You mean steerage? Could be, I've never been adverse to substandard classes, myself. How about you?

"Looks like you've got a little tangled up in your own silk rainbow scarf....."

Well, sounds a step up to me from a tainbow felted bag of misery.

"Kinda reminds me of the Waldorf Survivors group in that they are self-selecting. But see, I'd let me in to the Survivors Group"

I'm one of the moderators of the survivors group, and I've heard your story. Believe me, the survivors group doesn't need to hear it, too. They're there to recover from dealings with twisted people like you, not suffer more of it. Don't apply again.

Thank you Pete smile

I do like being woken up to the true meaning of the waldorf/steiner movement. Mustn't wake us up too quickly before we're ready wink

Isenhart, Is being on mumsnet part of your special' work'? You're not winning any of us over, not very first class, more like third. Looks like you've got a little tangled up in your own silk rainbow scarf.....

"Your understanding may be wrong, Isenhart7."

Yeah, Pete you're right-they're not going to let just anyone in-you for instance would not be allowed-unless, of course, you saw the error of your ways, because you would not be considered to demonstrate anthroposophical work.

Kinda reminds me of the Waldorf Survivors group in that they are self-selecting. But see, I'd let me in to the Survivors Group just to hear my story and I'd let you in to First Class just because you're such a piece of work. envy

"It doesn't mean anything to me which was my only point; however, I'm not sure that Pete hasn't misinformed the list regarding it's nature. My understanding is that it is a class that anyone can join once they have been a member of the Anthroposophical Society for two years."

Your understanding may be wrong, Isenhart7. wink

Here are some descriptions.
More

"I consider myself essentially to be a human being and I have feelings just like you do. I do not appreciate being called names, being spoken of in the third person, or the repeated insinuation that I am not a human being."

"Then I suggest you start acting like one."

Do you suggest yourself as a role model, Diana?

"Drop the disturbed little games you're famous for and apparently think are very clever, and talk to other people the way most humans talk to each other. I think you can see it isn't just me you come across to this way - these people don't know you the way I do, and they are telling you pretty clearly that they cannot make sense out of anything you say."

That's true, Diana, you don't know me at all.

"If that's really the way you want it, then by all means go right on with your fatuous nonsense, but then don't whine your feelings are hurt when people say they can't relate to you."

Thanks for the permission to speak freely,
but I didn't say my feelings were hurt. I was asked why I didn't answer a question and I answered I didn't appreciate the climate here, which you, my dear, are famous for fostering.

"I consider myself essentially to be a human being and I have feelings just like you do. I do not appreciate being called names, being spoken of in the third person, or the repeated insinuation that I am not a human being."

Then I suggest you start acting like one. Drop the disturbed little games you're famous for and apparently think are very clever, and talk to other people the way most humans talk to each other. I think you can see it isn't just me you come across to this way - these people don't know you the way I do, and they are telling you pretty clearly that they cannot make sense out of anything you say. If that's really the way you want it, then by all means go right on with your fatuous nonsense, but then don't whine your feelings are hurt when people say they can't relate to you.

"Isenhart - Despite a six year involvement with Steiner education I simply do not understand many of your posts and that is really frustrating."

Losing your will to live, I think is how you put it.

"So Northern is 'objectively' a killer and you are 'objectively' an anthroposophist.
How does that work?"

Or doesn't work, as the case may be: northernrefugee39 has apparently never considered itself to be a killer. I have never considered myself to be an anthroposophist, either.

"What does 'First Class' mean here?"

It doesn't mean anything to me which was my only point; however, I'm not sure that Pete hasn't misinformed the list regarding it's nature. My understanding is that it is a class that anyone can join once they have been a member of the Anthroposophical Society for two years.

"Sorry Isenhart, I had a similar experience on Mothering.com. I was ganged up against and talked about in the third person; it's not pleasant atall. (I won't be going back to mothering.com because it's not the kind of envioronment I like. And the conversation is terribly boring too)"

Sounds like you like a stimulating environment where you are directly engaged. So do I.

"I still don't understand your posts tho' Isenhart -I am not an objective killer- what a strange thing to say."

Perhaps. I'd say that you have killed living things for your daily sustenance and by accident over the course of your life. I really don't see anyway around that. A human being as he/she stands in reality is at the top of the food chain as a matter of fact.

"It also has no correllation or relevence as to whether you are an anthroposophist- not signed up to the anthro society or attending first class."

I think that people who are members of the Anthroposophical Society and who attend First Class do generally regard themselves as anthroposophists and I would accord them that regard as well.

"What then is your definition of an anthroposophist?"

I've never had one.

"Perhaps you can start there."

Perhaps I can.

"Do you believe in spiritualality as a science?"

I believe in spirituality as an inner quality or qualities of being. If you're asking if I believe there is a methodology to explore this aspect of yes, what I do believe exists-namely spirit-then I would say there are several.

"Knitting as a way of life..."

I've never had much use for knitters myself.

Are elite Anthros pulling the wool over the eyes of the lesser Anthros? The irony would be fantastic...

Oh fab Pete grin

veils behind veils.....

First Class is the Anthroposophical Society's upper echelon. They are privy to the writings of Steiner that are too secret for the general Anthroposophists. Considering how much wacky stuff is out there in Steiner's public works, I can only imagine what he considered too sensitive to keep secret - except among the Anthro-elite. And is the First Class harboring some secret that might change the minds of others who have embraced Anthroposophy? [hmmm] Are elite Anthros pulling the wool over the eyes of the lesser Anthros? The irony would be fantastic... grin

By the way... is anyone still wondering what it's like not to be able to get a straight answer to a simple, direct question? wink

Isenhart - Despite a six year involvement with Steiner education I simply do not understand many of your posts and that is really frustrating.

So Northern is 'objectively' a killer and you are 'objectively' an anthroposophist.
How does that work?
What does 'First Class' mean here?

Sorry Isenhart, smile

I had a similar experience on Mothering.com. I was ganged up against and talked about in the third person; it's not pleasant atall. (I won't be going back to mothering.com because it's not the kind of envioronment I like. And the conversation is terribly boring too)

Pete, you are absolutely right, the pretence is everthing, even to the extent of self delusion on a massive scale, just like all cult followers.

I still don't understand your posts tho' Isenhart -I am not an objective killer- what a strange thing to say. It also has no correllation or relevence as to whether you are an anthroposophist- not signed up to the anthro society or attending first class. What then is your definition of an anthroposophist? Perhaps you can start there. Do you believe in spiritualality as a science?

Knitting as a way of life... hmm

Its Esther but thank you.
I think the orange shawl/tie dye dress combination is ill advised TBH.

Especially for Eastergreenwood and Isenhart

Oh heavens to Betsy is this thread still going?

Please direct me immediately to a link with Steiner propaganda

"What? crikey! What on earth is that meant to mean? No, I'm not a killer. I'm a vegetarian, I even rescue spiders . Anything less like a killer than me So "depends what you mean by killer" isn't my response, no."

So your response is no, you're not a killer because you're a vegitarian and you display kindness to spiders. So I could say no I'm not an anthroposophist because I don't now, nor have I ever, nor do I plan to, in the future belong to the Anthroposophical Society, nor do I now, nor have I ever, nor do I plan to, in the future, attend First Class.

"So, to pick up where we left off, are you an anthroposophist?"

I am objectively an anthroposophist and you are objectively a killer whether you consider yourself one or not.

"Why don't you tell us waht you would mean by anthroposophist, since you apparently seem to know about it?"

I consider myself essentially to be a human being and I have feelings just like you do. I do not appreciate being called names, being spoken of in the third person, or the repeated insinuation that I am not a human being.

"I think it's better to be honest (even if some people will think you're weird /mad than to lie about it), I don't get it"

Anthroposophists pretending to be mainstream people is camouflage ... it's intended to fool people. But, as we have seen, like all camouflage, it's detectable to the discerning eye. Donning this mainstream camouflage, Anthros interact with us as if there is absolutely nothing peculiar about Waldorf/Anthro behavior. This works in environments that are Anthro-heavy, Waldorf for example. The Anthrouflage that many enthusiastic Waldorf parents wear starts to reveal itself when prospective parents ask "Are you an Anthroposophist?"

Anthrouflage does work well in environments that are mainstream heavy, Mothering.com for example. The thing is, as with any good camouflage, to see Anthrouflage, you have to look closely. Sometimes, it takes a while for new parents, excited about Waldorf, to actually look closely. That's what the Anthros are counting on. They'll happily take your $10,000 a year for three years while you are discovering what Waldorf is. And if it takes you six years, all the better. angry

Anthrouflage works! That's why they do it.

So has anyone ever admitted to being an anthroposophist? I don't see why you shouldn't admit to it if you actually believe it's true..........I think it's better to be honest (even if some people will think you're weird /mad than to lie about it), I don't get it hmm

And btw, as neither a pro or anti Steiner person I would deffo say that thebee does the image of steiner a lot of harm.

"Depends on what you mean by anthroposophist. So, northernrefugee39, are you a killer?"

What? hmm

crikey! What on earth is that meant to mean? No, I'm not a killer. I'm a vegetarian, I even rescue spiders smile

. Anything less like a killer than me grin

So "depends what you mean by killer" isn't my response, no.
So, to pick up where we left off, are you an anthroposophist? Why don't you tell us waht you would mean by anthroposophist, since you apparently seem to know about it?

Thanks Diana for filling us in, I had my suspicions.. it isn't like interacting with a real human atall, and now it makes sense.

Janni, yep, me too. Losing it rapidly.
It takes me back to all those quizzical, innocent looks, throwing back in your face the genuine questions... arrgh...the complacent little smirks...the superiority wrapped up in the guise of a sort of fake humility euk.

Just popping in here briefly guys but be forewarned - Isenhart has a long, long, long history of playing games like this. She is not serious. The first time I interacted with her, she had me going quite awhile, too, thinking I was having a real conversation like one human being to another before I figured out it was all a game to her. Yes, all the little word games and mind games are quite anthroposophical. Since she isn't going to speak for herself, I'll fill you in - yes, she is an anthroposophist and a very involved and committed one.

Northern/Barking

I'm losing the will to live sad

I love the way no one will ever say they are an anthroposophist on here!

Isenhart, I'll write your next post for you to save you some time:

'I love the way no one will ever say they are an anthroposophist on here!'

Janni, what you do meant when you say you love it?

Thanks, Janni, but being a mom like you I certainly know what love is.

Do you think he does the "image" of Steiner waldorf more harm than good then? (smile)

I think attempts at explaining what anthroposophy is and that it underlies the curriculum in a Waldorf School to prospective parents is a good thing. I know of several schools that link to this FAQ sheet and I think that this information is better than no information.

Two Mums from a mothering site in the US are affiliated to Americans for Waldorf education- their names are on the website; and whenever anyone asks a question on this mothering forum, they pop up, and pretend to be regular parents, when in fact they wrote this website with thebee.

Well, it's quite possible that I'm not a "regular" parent either whatever that means-abnormal, irregular? One of the people acknowledged in TheBee associated FAQ page has actually been an overnight guest in my home. I wasn't aware of his association with TheBee when he stayed with us, though.

"One of his many websites.And he ahas apparently bought other web names to block people who may write something trthful about it. He's very desperate to propogate the Steiner myth; as are those affiliated to him."

Sounds incredibly phlegmatic to me.

I love the way no one will ever say they are an anthroposophist on here!

Isenhart, I'll write your next post for you to save you some time:

'I love the way no one will ever say they are an anthroposophist on here!'

Janni, what you do meant when you say you love it?

And on and on ad infinitum

This thread is certainly making me want to kill something.

"Can apple trees grow from rotten cores?"

Yes, indeed they can as many roadside apple trees attest.

"Isenhart are you an anthroposophist?"

Depends on what you mean by anthroposophist. So, northernrefugee39, are you a killer?

Do you think he does the "image" of Steiner waldorf more harm than good then? (smile)
Two Mums from a mothering site in the US are affiliated to Americans for Waldorf education- their names are on the website; and whenever anyone asks a question on this mothering forum, they pop up, and pretend to be regular parents, when in fact they wrote this website with thebee. One of his many websites.And he ahas apparently bought other web names to block people who may write something trthful about it.
He's very desperate to propogate the Steiner myth; as are those affiliated to him.

"Isenhart - there's something about your posting style which is reminding me of TheBee. Do you know each other?"

Janni,

You mean the 58 or 60 year old man with no children who pretended to be a Mum to get on this list in order to stalk northernrefugee39 around the internet?

I have been aware of TheBee and his work on the internet for many years but have personally vowed never to speak to him.

Can apple trees grow from rotten cores? Perhaps they can, the rottenness provides the compost. Anthropososhical compost producing little spiritual apples. Cute. Not.

Isenhart are you an anthroposophist? I'm interested , because you never seem to address the posts about the anthroposophbic core, you sort of brush past them and don't acknowledge them, very anthroposophically if I may say so grin

There... but ... oh so not there

Isenhart - there's something about your posting style which is reminding me of TheBee. Do you know each other?

"I'm pretty sure you just made that one up, Isenhart grin

"

Nahhhh, I've actually heard this argument. If I made it up, I would have said, "One person's rotten core is another person's apple tree." wink

I'm pretty sure you just made that one up, Isenhart grin

forum about Steiner Waldorf and anthroposhy

"And there lies the rotten core Isenhart, as Northern has stated in previous posts, parents are attracted to steiner for what it isn't not what it actually is"

Well, you know what they say, barking, "One person's rotten core is another person's religion."

Yes Barking, I couldn't agree more.
I've just been reading some threads
[http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=683104&highlight=steiner+waldorf&page=28 here] which may interest Sprocket. Some Steiner waldorf recovery forum from US. A Steiner teacher, again echoing the anthroposhy in the curriculum, how the schools are there to gently awaken children to their destiny.
It's worth reading. And worth reading some of the comments frommothers who have suddenly ralised, after wondering what it was that seemed strange and cult like. one woman says she felt herself go white as a sheet as she read these people's stories....

I prefer the, "Whoever is not against us is for us" formulation myself.

And there lies the rotten core Isenhart, as Northern has stated in previous posts, parents are attracted to steiner for what it isn't not what it actually is

"Isenhart demonstrates it beautifully here - with more questions, holding a mirror up to your enquiry so they carefully suggest that you aren't trusting the path, maybe you're not spiritually ready for this little journey. It challenges your sense of belonging to the community or as George Bush so eloquently put 'Are you with us or against us?"

I prefer the, "Whoever is not against us is for us" formulation myself.

When I finally admitted to one of the parents why I left and how I felt so upset, angry lied to and disillusioned, she replied : 'You made yourself feel like that'.
another ex-steiner parent that I know locally who also had a bad time was told that 'maybe it's your karma'.

Hi Janni and PeteK smile

Another thing with the positive language is that it allows the school to ignore any issues by not admitting to them.
If you don't admit to a problem there isn't one!
They wouldn't use the word ignore, they would employ a softer favourable substitute.
After all the steiner movement grew from the same country famous for their use of the euphemism sad

Sprocketgirl - I absolutely support what Barking, Northern, PeteK and PowerofJoy are saying and I have six years experience on which to base that agreement.

At my son's current secondary school, they have frequent parent tours - classes are used to parents just appearing in the doorway to observe for a few minutes, unannounced. What you see is what you get.

I was NEVER given the option of observing a class lesson at the Steiner School, even as a kindergarten parent whose child was due to go to class one. Indeed I NEVER saw parents observing class lessons, which seems astonishing to me now sad

Sprocket asks:
"What do you think would happen if I just turned up and wanted to see some of the classes?"

Try it and see. My guess wink

is you will not be allowed into the class... ANY class - especially as a surprise visitor.

"Also is the anthroposophy stuff even taught in the kindergarten?"

Absolutely! Concepts like reincarnation are brought in right away. The "Rainbow Bridge" story is practically universal in Waldorf kindergartens and is filled with images of angels, heaven/earth and incarnation/reincarnation - even a weird twist undermining fathers in some versions. hmm

Other Anthroposophical ideas brought in kindergarten include Eurythmy, of course, and again reincarnation through metaphors like butterflies. Christian themes are also apparent in Waldorf kindergartens and a Rafael's Madonna picture will be on the wall and the kids may be making yarn crosses.

Nature table, gnomes, silphs, undines, nature spirits, stories involving nature spirits make up the substance of play, holidays, all themes. Advent spiral = light/darkness themes... Michael/dragon = good/evil themes... Rainbow Bridge = heaven/hell/reincarnation... there's lots of Anthroposophy and the foundation laid for some more-or-less universal spiritual concepts that will be redefined later.

It's never too early to start indoctrination...

Hi Northern smile

spiritual ping-pong I call it! But these people aren't spiritual, they are the most selfish disturbed people I have ever met. Oh so beautiful like their surroundings but very very dangerous!

The 'positive language' they employ is rather like a combination of NVC non-violent communication (snort! yes the irony is killing me) which is big in the schools now together with Landmark, Biographical counselling and Heartspheres. It's just part of the big self-help industry calling itself natural/spiritual.

Their response shines the heavenly light on the person enquiring, so even if your child has been bullied, it is reflected back at you oh so delicately: 'So what I hear you saying is you observed x pushing Y? That must have felt really difficult for you etc. Sound familiar? On the one hand listening but on the other a little obtuse? It potentially could be a great model for problem solving, the problem is the children don't follow it and it relies on everyone to follow the same model and if you aren't aware of what they are doing you are left in the dark and very very frustrated.

The sweetness that you talk about Northern, together with the light sing song voice, but underneath these people is such rage, such anger bubbling contained underneath! Which brings me to the idea of 'containment' it's a big thing at the school, this holding together, wrapping oneself, holding oneself in cloth, wool - the feet and hands always to be covered.

Sprocketgirl, I remember when I first looked into steiner education, I read about it in a magazine called 'Natural Parent' and later in an article in the Guardian. I took it at face value, I trusted the writers and when I first observed what I thought was a natural education I mistakingly saw a meaningful way to learn, I attached all this stuff to the little wooden kitchen, the planting, the singing, the cooking. It all 'appeared' to honour the child, I didn't have the confidence to realise I could do all these things myself in the home. As time has gone on, I see a similar article every couple of years printed in the Guardian - I never questioned the writer's motives, I suspect there is a link with the school there, it's a great pr campaign for all those new vunerable parents who want to do the very best for their child. They sold it to me.

If you are looking for the meaning of life don't look to a steiner school to do it for you. The meaning of life is just that - the meaning you give to your own life and that of your children, your family, it's within. One shoudn't have to subscribe or pay for it.

Sprocket- I'm not lying! grin

Hi Barking, it was interesting to read the thread from 4 yrs ago or so, ( long before I discovered mumsnet) - I'd never read it. There were more people saying it was cult like and anthroposophy being deliberately covered up then too. Not many people coming on to support the system.
Barking, what you say about the questions which answer your questions is a great observation; always so sweetly put though, but never answering you; we had silences too; no answers, questions back and silences.
Cult.
Sprocket, the people who sing Steiner's praises are either died in the wool anthroposophists, who will lie through their teeth to pretend the bonkers stuff isn't there, or they really have no clue, they have listened to what they've been told, and will not have read Steiner themselves.
If you turn up at the school, they wil probably say it's "inappropriate" to look in on a class- that's what we were told, as if it's breaking some spell or something. But they're terified anyone will see/hear anthroposophic nonsense being used in the class, or bored, bullied shouted at children.

Hi Sprocketgirl
if you met me a few years ago I was very pro steiner. I thought I had found the holy grail, we moved area, changed our lives. Friends outside of the school did try and dampen my enthusiasm, they suggested it was a little too alternative, a bit bonkers - I refused to listen, I had the utmost pity for them, they were 'outsiders' they didn't understand, and the classic 'if only every child has access to such a wonderful education'.

I call myself Barking, not because I am one of the 'mad people' making this up, the experience has sent me very nearly loopy, I am still surrounded by these people and their darling indigo children.

It all looks so beautiful on the surface, its very subtle this uneasiness we all talk about, it creeps up on you as you begin to ask questions. Isenhart demonstrates it beautifully here - with more questions, holding a mirror up to your enquiry so they carefully suggest that you aren't trusting the path, maybe you're not spiritually ready for this little journey. It challenges your sense of belonging to the community or as George Bush so eloquently put 'Are you with us or against us?'

I would love to be proven wrong - go see for yourself, not at the next summer fayre, join for a year and tell us what you find

Hi all

Bagelbird and Sprocketgir I wish I could tell you it's as good as it 'appears' but I can't, I wanted it to work, even when there were very loud alarm bells ringing.

All I can conclude from being involved in steiner education and living in a steiner community is that quite simply its a cult.

If you are seeking an alternative education, there are other schools that may be less esoteric see human scale education

This thread isn't an isolated case, if you wish to seek further clarification search through the previous steiner threads here

www.mumsnet.com/Talk?topicid=43&threadid=487528#10069248

www.mumsnet.com/Talk?topicid=2402&threadid=411029#8348359

www.mumsnet.com/Talk?topicid=43&threadid=24844#608108

www.mumsnet.com/Talk?topicid=43&threadid=80302#1759398

www.mumsnet.com/Talk?topicid=43&threadid=329287#6667086

www.mumsnet.com/Talk?topicid=43&threadid=99648#2162019

www.mumsnet.com/Talk?topicid=43&threadid=275284#5504318

# marker#8

www.mumsnet.com/Talk?topicid=43&threadid=416171#8447650

I keep on checking this thread waiting for someone to convince me that all the anti-steiner comments are just lies made up by mad people but it's just not happening.

I think I remember someone saying that visits to steiner schools/class room viewing is always pre-arranged. What do you think would happen if I just turned up and wanted to see some of the classes?

Also is the anthroposophy stuff even taught in the kindergarten?

thanks all smile

"Isenhart, are your children still in school?"

Yes, the term doesn't end for two more weeks here.

Do you believe in gnomes?

Raconteur - what would you say to most of the people on this thread who say that Steiner is a cult, etc? Bagelbird said she was interested in the other side of the arguement......me too!

Power/Margaret grin

well said, a true picture.
Raconteur, did you romanticise the Steiner picture do you think? Did you mention all those points Margaret/Power posted? Did you even mention anthroposophy? Reincarnation? Did any of the teachers who were so bowled over by the beautiful natural sing songy childhood promated by Steiner schools think to ask why things were done as they were? Why perhaps, the paintings wee all watery? Did you say that was because to remind these children of the spirit world they had recently emerged from? I'm sure the teachers sat there feeling woefully inadequate as the beautifull myth of Steiner school was paraded before them.

isenhart, I'm sorry, I don't understand you, what are you getting at? My kids were subdued, bored and bullied, not dazed though, they had enough of the real world outside of the Steiner cult to have their feet firmly on the ground; but they were often unhappy , yes. Their teachers didn't let on though; they said " She's always fine when I see her* and " She's winding you up" They lied about that too. The only way one of their class teachers was found out, was when the daughter of an anthropsophist told the story of what went on the class and playground; then people listened. Alot came out into the open when people began to listen, but it was hushed up, covered over, teachers "left" and went on to teach at other well established schools. Plus ca change.
They are so well practised at mistruths, distorting reality( well, that's no surprise considering Steiner's record of "scientific reality") that it was natural for them.

Isenhart, are your children still in school?

"Yes, I can hear Raconteur now, making all sorts of claims about Steiner education that are not supported by mainstream studies. I can also hear what Raconteur is not saying to the state school teachers..."

Perhaps your invitation was lost in the mail, Margaret.

Isenhart wrote: "I am picturing Raconteur, the Steiner teacher on this thread lecturing to the state school teachers."

Yes, I can hear Raconteur now, making all sorts of claims about Steiner education that are not supported by mainstream studies. I can also hear what Raconteur is not saying to the state school teachers--that Steiner was an occultist; that Steiner's theories are based on his alleged clairvoyance; that the real agenda of Steiner education is to prepare students for the next epoch in Steiner's fantasy of racial evolution; that some learning disabled children might be demons in human form; that Anthroposophical science includes nonsense such as there being four kingdoms consisting of vegetables, minerals, animals and... distinct and separate from animals... human beings! that children in Steiner schools are categorized by the negative traits of a primitive theory of four temperaments, that blob painting on wet paper can help children see a non-material world that is populated by gnomes, undines, archangels and all sorts of other supernatural creatures. Yes, we could fill a book with what Raconteur is not telling the state school teachers.

"I am picturing the teachers at my sons' Steiner School. Out of the 11 full-timers (3 KG and 8 class teachers), there are three who would not seem distinctly odd at any mainstream social event and one of those is not Steiner trained."

I am picturing Raconteur, the Steiner teacher on this thread lecturing to the state school teachers.

I am picturing the teachers at my sons' Steiner School. Out of the 11 full-timers (3 KG and 8 class teachers), there are three who would not seem distinctly odd at any mainstream social event and one of those is not Steiner trained.

"Isenhart, you may think that by not sending your kids to Steiner school that you are sacrificing them, I think the opposite!"

This had never crossed my mind.

"I think to put your kid in a system which promotes a cult like pseudo religion is a big sacrifice."

Yes, I understood that you thought this. I also thought you thought you did this, albeit unwittingly.

"But if you meant that by not removing them for 2/3 years, and trying to work around the anthropsophy, and trying not to disrupt their childhood by thrusting them into a new envioronment, agonising over what to do because we had been lied to, yup, we did sacrifice them."

See above.

"And yes, the guilt is massive; but subsiding day by day as we see our happy, creative, well adjusted children, return to their natural state, rather than the subdued, bullied, bored dazed children they were with at Steiner school."

At least they weren't subdued, bullied, bored, or dazed themselves.

I've known many adults who are graduates of Anthroposophy schools. A lack of social skills was glaringly apparent in many of them. Hardly surprising, because I saw the same lack of social skills in many Anthroposophy school teachers. Where you have deception, you don't have good social skills. Where you have a cult that categorizes people into levels of spiritual superiority, you don't have good social skills. Where you have a belief that bad things happen to people because of something bad they did in a previous life, you don't have good social skills. As Northern says, pretending that Steiner schools produce students with good social skills is another myth promoted by Anthroposophists.

Parents can take credit for good social skills their Steiner school children might have.

Yes; I'm a Steiner teacher who was called in to a state school as the school's "artist in residence"; they felt the need for some creative input from the Steiner sector. The teachers there expressed their admiration for how integrated creativity is within the Steiner system, whereas they are desperately trying to survive (their words) within a system that is trying to choke their - and the students' - creativity.

Isenhart, you may think that by not sending your kids to Steiner school that you are sacrificing them, I think the opposite!
I think to put your kid in a system which promotes a cult like pseudo religion is a big sacrifice. One which many children never recover from.
But if you meant that by not removing them for 2/3 years, and trying to work around the anthropsophy, and trying not to disrupt their childhood by thrusting them into a new envioronment, agonising over what to do because we had been lied to, yup, we did sacrifice them. And yes, the guilt is massive; but subsiding day by day as we see our happy, creative, well adjusted children, return to their natural state, rather than the subdued, bullied, bored dazed children they were with at Steiner school.

"Isenhart, those like us who have moved from the Steiner system, have made few sacrifices by leaving, just heaved a huge sigh of relief, and seen our children blossom, smile, create, live."

So sorry northernrefugee39, I thought you sacrificed your child's most precious and formative years.

Hi Raconteur, smile

you are a Steiner teacher aren't you? Thanks for joining in again, it's always good to have the views of someone in the system.
Were you lecturing about Steiner education? Did you talk about the anthroposophic core of the curriculum to the teachers at the state schools?

As to your children "spreading the values" of what they have learned at Steiner school, do you mean the "occult truth" Steiner is talking about? The "spiritual aim"? shock

Steiner believed these people would be the ones who climb the spiritual ladder of reincarnation, and who will lead those who aren't spiritually evolved. A spiritually advanced hierarchy. I'm sure many wouldn't be happy to be lead by them... hmm

I entirely agree with your points about the lack of creativity and social awareness in state education. Thnis was one of the main reasons we switched to Steiner education. But of course we were lied to about the full nature of the education. I remember you saying in another thread that you found the "education" of parents about anthroposophy a tricky one.

I do not believe Steiner education fills the gap we felt state education was lacking. Copying a techer does not equal "creative richness". Steiner schools provide a level of teaching craft quite well, and the gardening aspect is good, thouigh many primary schools have gardening as part of their day now too.
Steiner education isn't creative, doesn't encourage enquiring minds to flourish, and the children there must be some of the least socially adjusted I've ever come across. There is a reputation for bullying too ( not dealt with)
These are myths which the Steiner system propagates- creativity, and social abilities which simply aren't seen. I would interpret the so called confidence is a false sense of superioty, of being better spiritually than others.

No, state education isn't perfect by any means; but entirely preferable to anthropsophy schools.

There are many teachers in the state system who feel as disillusioned with the lack of creativity. The primary school my younger two go two have had a poetry workshop, three art workshops, and made a film, working on location with three other schools. They have done animation classes, band classes, and sculpture; they have had French and German classes; they have planted a garden; they have planted a small wood of trees, working with local conservationists; they do have, I would say, an exceptional head, who in his own words says "sats are bollocks" (!) but have done all these creativly enriching activities in less than a year. At the Steiner school , they didn't do anything like this, let alone bring in working artists, writers and poets. The schools do the best they can within the restrictions of the curriculum, and if Steiner schools were put under the microscope as state schools constantly are, there would be a few eyes opened.

Isenhart, those like us who have moved from the Steiner system, have made few sacrifices by leaving, just heaved a huge sigh of relief, and seen our children blossom, smile, create, live.

"Whether or not you choose Steiner education to provide your pupils with creative richness and social abilities, which it generally does well, I appeal to all to mobilize to bring these qualities (back?) into state education. All children deserve these."

Anyway, don't you think that's what people who don't choose Steiner education are doing already? Obviously, people who move from the Steiner/Waldorf system into another system have already mobilized to bring these qualities into state education and, in most cases, they've made sacrifices to do so.

"BTW, I have to say that I wouldn't mind if my children, who attend Steiner schools, would end up as world leaders spreading the values they are learning there, which I think are sound ones."

Dear Raconteur,

Really? I can honestly say that I have consistently steered my eldest away from the world leadership racket. I personally think it's a really tough gig.

"In fact, I would be rather proud if they achieve this! But their schools are exceptionally accepting of any career path (joiner, glass blower, nurse); there is certainly no emphasis on world leadership roles."

While I understand your point, your post does semm to beg the question if you'd be equally proud of your joiner, glass blowing, nurse children as your world leader.

I've just returned from lecturing at a state secondary school, one of the very best in its region. The teachers are saddened by the increasing pressure that is eliminating all the creative programs due to the recent retirement of the principal who had protected these. They have seen an enormous change in the social climate amongst the pupils over the last 10 years; more isolation individually as well as more tendency to form hard and fast groups that do not communicate with one another. They are desperately worried that all that was of value there is being destroyed by the current educational climate.

Whether or not you choose Steiner education to provide your pupils with creative richness and social abilities, which it generally does well, I appeal to all to mobilize to bring these qualities (back?) into state education. All children deserve these.

BTW, I have to say that I wouldn't mind if my children, who attend Steiner schools, would end up as world leaders spreading the values they are learning there, which I think are sound ones. wink

In fact, I would be rather proud if they achieve this! But their schools are exceptionally accepting of any career path (joiner, glass blower, nurse); there is certainly no emphasis on world leadership roles.

Isenhart - I appreciate you taking the time to read and understand my 'story'. I sincerely do not feel I am in a trough now, though. I feel hopeful and free!

Thank you Frogs, northernrefugee and janni for answering my post. There is a huge amount to take in and I think I might print off this thread and the previous one that is linked at the start and read it through slowly and carefully again when kids are asleep.
Thanks for the links - I will look at those very carefully.

Isenhart you said
"It sounds to me like you see Steiner Schools mission as being prostelyzing versus educating."
If by proselytizing you mean recruit to the Steiner institution, in order to create a spiritually superior group, yes , I do believe that is a mission of anthroposophists. It's all over his work. That's one of the main reasons he believed in education.
Here are Steiner's words on the subject
""The aim of the Sixth epoch of humanity will be to popularise occult truth in the widest circles; that is the mission of that epoch"
"So a certain group of people must join together in order to prepare the future. .... The point will be for people over the whole earth to find each other spiritually, in order to fashion the future in, a positive way."

"There is no other means of bringing about a universal human brotherhood than the spreading of occult knowledge through the world. One may talk forever of Love and the Brotherhood of Man, one may found thousands of Unions; they will not lead to the desired goal, however well intentioned they may be. The point is to use the right means, to know how to found this bond of brotherhood. Only those whose lives are grounded in universal occult truth, valid for all men, find themselves together in the one truth. "
"So you see, the Spiritual Movement has a quite definite goal, namely, to mould future humanity in advance.
so have we now the task of working towards the great moment in the Sixth Age, when humanity will undertake a great spiritual ascent.
We must endeavour to come out of materialism again, and societies with a spiritual aim must undertake to guide humanity, not from motives of arrogance and pride, but as a task and duty."

I think Steiner's writings are pretty clear on this point. Gather together a group of spiritually advanced humans; he talks about missions, aims, tasks, goals, and spreading occult truth, i.e.anthroposophy.
Steiner schools are anthroposophy schools. The education they offer is to guide children towards so called concealed spiritual truths - anthroposophic beliefs.

The Michael Hall statement is good in one way- that they say anthroposophy underpins so much, and is so wide reaching within the Steiner community. What is interesting is that they don't actually say what anthroposophic belief entails, that it takes a religious stance, that the beliefs in reincarnation, clairvoyant ability, spirit worlds etc are it's main tenets. It would be simple to say this, but they don't- and the reason is that it would put so many people off; so they stick to the natural creative stuff. They even say that parents "might" notice this, and only after they have been there a while. Why not put parents straight before then? I think they dig themselves a hole. Theyv still don't say what anthroposophy entails.
Most schools don't even mention it in the promotional material. And if they do, the nearest they get to any explanation as to what it is about is some bland statement like
"Anthroposophy is a path of knowledge, to guide the spiritual in the human being to the spiritual in the universe" which really says so very little, and certainly doesn't help when it comes to how it is used in the classroom.

"I am one of the world's least pushy mums, BTW, but I feel very guilty that I did not realize how little they were learning."

Janni,

Since you have mentioned this now twice I did go back through the thread and I read your story. I saw a lot of positives and reasons why you chose the school in the first place (child miserable in state primary) and reasons why you may have stayed (community, teacher, happy child) At one point you said:

"I challenge ANYONE to tell me we made the wrong decision to remove him from that environment."

So sounds to me like you are confident in your decision and I would guess then that you didn't have enough clarity to make the decision earlier.

I felt inadequate when I was a working mother with children in pre-school and K. and then for years after I quit working I felt guilty that I wasn't "there for them" in those early years. I got over it by being a full-time mom to three adolescent children now for several years-that pretty much squares that guilt-trip away as far as I can tell.

I don't know that you'll have the opportunity to make up to your children what you believe that they have missed out on but I believe that you will.

Because, I do think there are periods of time when children are really receptive to learning certain lessons and certain skills but I don't think they are windows of opportunity that close so much as waves that come and come again and come again.

I guess that could mean you are in a trough now. wink

I cannot say whether my children's school was proselytizing, but the level of education they received their was shockingly inadequate given their age and ability.

I am so glad they are out and have a chance to fulfill their potential.

I am one of the world's least pushy mums, BTW, but I feel very guilty that I did not realize how little they were learning. sad

"Isenhart, it was an ironic statement."

Oh! shock

"I am appalled that families are lied to by Steiner schools, for the sake of indoctrinating children."

It sounds to me like you see Steiner Schools mission as being prostelyzing versus educating.

"You're right though, I didn't word it very well and I apologise."

I accept your apology.

"The implication from your posts was that you either think it's ok for the schools not to tell parents about anthroposophy , straight and clear at the onset and in their promotional material,"

No, I certainly knew what the philosophical underpinnings were of each and every one of my options for the primary grades because I researched all of them quite thoroughly. I don't have the expectation that other parents will have the amount of information that I did when I made my decision because my field, at that time, was early childhood education.

I think that the MH statement that you provided was a good thing, a positive step toward the disclosure that you may seek. I also noticed that much of MH's website is replicated in other web site's (as I noticed HH's is duplicated as well)-so it seems to me that if this is language that new parents find helpful that other WS's would quite likely be willing to adopt it.

"or that you think this is happening already- which I can catatgoriclly say that it isn't."

I actually didn't mean that either but yes, to some extent it is happening already and no-you can't say categorically that it isn't.

"Am I wrong about your stance? if so, what is your view on this, because that was the impression I had, but perhaps I'm wrong, so please put me right."

This was your question:

"No-one expects a thesis on anthroposophy, but the basic tenets of reincarnation, spirit worlds, etc etc would be a start.And would , of course, be honest, truthful and a more complete picture than the one they are trained to give, wouldn't you say?"

I said that, no, I wouldn't say that for several reasons. For starters, no I don't think that would be a start-I think a definition of anthroposophy would be a start.

Bagelbird - I understand totally why you are drawn to Steiner. Most of us who have had children in Steiner schools felt the same way, initially. The appeal is so powerful partly because of the inadequacies of many other early years/primary school provision.

If you read my posts about my younger son's class one experience (and hence MY experience - it was a nightmare), you will understand how the bubble well and truly burst for me.

I saw many Class One groups form over the years. Some worked quite well and the teacher and group got on OK, others were extremely problematic and I really felt the children were getting a very poor education.

Isenhart, it was an ironic statement. I am appalled that families are lied to by Steiner schools, for the sake of indoctrinating children.
You're right though, I didn't word it very well and I apologise.
The implication from your posts was that you either think it's ok for the schools not to tell parents about anthroposophy , straight and clear at the onset and in their promotional material, or that you think this is happening already- which I can catatgoriclly say that it isn't. Am I wrong about your stance? if so, what is your view on this, because that was the impression I had, but perhaps I'm wrong, so please put me right.

"Isenhart, interesting that you don't agree that telling the truth about the belief system which supports the curriculum would be honest and truthful."

Of course I didn't say that and I'm sad that you think these sorts of things about your fellow mothers. sad

"I'm glad you're happy that many families are kept in the dark;"

Really? If true, this would seem quite perverse to me.

"it goes along with the anthroposophists idea that all children should be allowed to have this spiritual -indoctrination- education foistered on them."

Again, odd to me that this should make you glad smile

when someone's thinking runs along these lines. I gathered you were against the indoctrination of youth into a spiritual education. If so, it seems to me that this would actually make you unhappy or perhaps even angry. angry

Frogs- that's a fab post. You are so right. I used to think the boredom and frustration of the kids at the school was a main trigger for the appalling bullying which goes on in Steiner schools, ( and is ignored, as a "past life issue" in which intervention would interrupt the karmic path)

When we first were at the school, the other parents were all over us; when the first kids came back to play, i was given a lecture, no story tapes, no recorde music, no tv obviously. My youngest ran into the room while I was making tea and listening to the news quiz or something "MUM! MUM! R isn't allowed to hear the radio"!!!

The creativity thing is a good example of where peope are misled by Steiner, because it couldn't be less creative; those endless wet on wet rainbows - and the curved edges of paper! HA! Both because there are no lines in the spirit world of course"!

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

Bagelbird -- first off, I'm not an experienced Steinerist, and only lurk on these threads very occasionally.

We have a Steiner school quite near to where we used to live, and I did look into it at one point, as I'd always seen it as pretty benign in a tree-huggy way. In the end I didn't go further with it, because I had the vague sensation that it was a bit cliquey and probably wasn't really my thang.

I only changed my view on Steiner more recently when I did an exchange between my dd1 and a German friend's dd (both then aged 8). My dd had been to stay with the German family without incident, they'd raved about how lovely she was, blahblah. When the Steiner kid came to us, I was struck by how completely incapable she was of entertaining herself -- didn't know how to read, at an age where my dd1 was a complete bookworm, and had read huge quantities of children's fiction already. She wasn't allowed to listen to storytapes or watch TV and videos, and I got the distinct impression that she was really lacking mental fuel and was actually very bored in quite a destructive way.

The week reached a low point with the only punch-up that has ever taken place in my house (and my kids were at pretty rough inner-city primary schools) where my dd and this other child had a minor altercation over a toy, which ended in the Steiner child thumping dd1 full in the face, breaking her glasses and giving her a black eye and a nosebleed.

Sure, the whole experience is a one-off, and might not be representative. But I did have genuine feelings of concern for this child who seemed to be to be bored, frustrated and terribly afraid of doing something 'wrong' such as watching videos, using felt-tips or drinking fizzy drink etc. And the much-valunted creativity seemed to consist of
doing endless identical rainbow pictures with my toddler's wax crayons, and cutting the corners off the paper.

It was just all very odd, and slightly disturbing, and made me feel very much less benignly towards Steiner education. I now wouldn't go near it with a ten-foot pole.

Margaret, thankyou for an excellent post.
I think the points you make so well about depriving the children of a good education are particularly valid, because, after all, that's what we would expect children to have; and by a "good education" I certainly don't mean lots of A grade exam results, but an envioronment where children can question, explore, and discover; which in Steiner schools, although the pretence is there, they are not allowed to question, or discover anything apart from the "truths" Steiner deemed.
Also, your point about finding out for yourself meaning becoming a clairvoyant is so true in Steiner speak too! Just as "freedom" in Steiner speak actually means "spiritual activity".
So the quotes about "freedom" are really quotes about 2spiritual activity"

Sprocket we too are atheists. We asked the school at the very start about the pictures of Madonnas, the morning "verse" / prayer, and if they were religious. They replied with a strong no. But of course they're religious. Anthroposophy is a religion, not a science. tjey tell the children that guardian angels are watching them. When you attend a "festival" like Michelmas, or the advent spiral, you are attending a religious ritual/ceremony.
Michelmas is highly important, St Michael the archangel, is thought to be the spirit of the age, it's not just some vague, joyful festival, which is the impression they want uninitiated parents to think.

""in 1879, in November, a momentous event took place, a battle of the Powers of Darkness against the Powers of Light, ending in the image of Michael overcoming the Dragon" Rudolf Steiner.

Anthroposophists consider Michael to be the administrator of cosmic intelligence, who 'dwells on the Sun'.Steiner Waldorf schools celebrate the Michaelmas Festival (the festival of 'strong will') during the Autumnal Equinox (September 29).

The advent spiral is a phenomonally important festival too.

Ok - this has taken a long time to read. I have switched my usual name as I want to remain as anonymous on this issue as possible - have RL friends who I have not discussed my plans with.
We have 2 children, 1 in school (CofE primary), 1 in kindergarten. The kindergarten is a Steiner group one not connected with a steiner school. It is wonderful - I think. After reading this thread I am obviously concerned. She is there because we were so unhappy about the local group so switched to one in a nearby town away from our village. The original plan was to keep her there and move when 5 to the same primary as our eldest child. With recent problems at this primary we were considering moving them both to a private Steiner school - as we have been so delighted with the kindergarten and on face value totally love many of the concepts behind Steiner education.
We see it as natural approach to education, steeped in a strong sense of respect and belonging for your own family, ethical view points and the environment is at the heart of every task etc etc. The arts are treasured and valued, each child taught to think and act as an individual with responsibility and a place within the world. This thread has not quite popped my little dream bubble but it has made me question it.
Many of the posts seem so angry and so extreme, Frankly I am shocked by some of the suggestions and personal statements at what has happened to you and some of your children. Not that I don’t believe you all, just amazed that I have not heard of any of this before! Here I was thinking about stretching our budget to give our children this idyllic and gently way of life and now I am worried we might be duping them into some organised equivalent of devil worship!
So.. please, anyone out there with experience, please help me see a balanced viewpoint in all this. Are these awful incidents isolated in a few extreme schools (if so, which ones should be avoided) and there are great middle ground ones? or are there any people out there who are not evangelists/personally involved in the schools as teachers/governors etc who have had positive experiences? Is it really so black and white or is it dangerously grey?
I do not know what/who to believe in all this and am starting to think we should put up with the CofE "voodoo magic" (DH is very anti church schools as he is atheist) and tarmac playgrounds as a safer bet than beautiful wooded playareas, small class sizes etc of the indoctrinating Steiner schools?

Sorry for my rambling. I have read all of this thread and I am no wiser. Just wondering if there is a middle ground or better perspective in all this. I am even concerned about any potential issues in the kindergarten that I am missing? It seems so sweet and lovely - gnomes on the windowsills, little natural wooden toys to play with etc etc - how worried should I be?
HELP!

Isenhart, interesting that you don't agree that telling the truth about the belief system which supports the curriculum would be honest and truthful. I'm glad you're happy that many families are kept in the dark; it goes along with the anthroposophists idea that all children should be allowed to have this spiritual -indoctrination- education foistered on them.

"Why did we never have text books at the Steiner School?"

Because then the parents could see what the children are really studying.

The Margulies sisters' father is an Anthroposophist so that no doubt added to the comfort level they felt in going to Steiner schools as they moved from one place to another.

My 11 year old told me today how much he liked having text books to work from. Why did we never have text books at the Steiner School?

'Because mummy didn't think to ask whether the school had any books in it' is what I should have said...

Well, if he's a teacher, he may be able to supplement the shortcomings in their education. I suspect, however, once he gets a load of what they're teaching, he will very likely have second thoughts about his decision (playing the odds here). What Isenhart7 said "Waldorf education should be viewed as a long-term commitment in part due to the difficulty a child most likely will face in transitioning to another system." is very true. Please be sure it's a very good fit for you before getting in long-term. Your kids are still young, so you wouldn't be making an irreversible mistake at this point, but keep your eyes open.

BTW, I noticed Michael Hall talks about "their" pupil Julianna Margulies. I don't know how long she was there, but she and her sister were army brats and were relocated a lot as children (I know this because I've talked with her sister) - so Michael Hall was actually one of several Waldorf schools the Margulies sisters attended.

One of the things they found comforting, growing up and moving from army station to army station, was the fact that they could attend a Waldorf school anywhere in the world and feel right at home (that's how similar Waldorf schools are). The transition from one Waldorf school to another was easy for them. This, also, broke up the mind-numbing monotony of their education (unlike kids who stay in the same school with the same classmates and same teacher for 8 years). So her Waldorf education was very different from a typical one. That's explains her perspective "One of the greatest gifts of Waldorf education... making you feel comfortable in the world" - because that's what Waldorf did for her. And "and learning that being an individual is a wonderful thing." - because she had a different Waldorf experience, she did, indeed, get a feeling of individuality that other Waldorf students... again, stuck in the same group for years... just don't come away with.

Hello again, Sprocketgirl.

Steiner education is not about natural parenting, although most of us thought it was when we first got involved in it. The problem is not that Anthroposophists believe crazy stuff; the problem is that the crazy stuff influences the academic curriculum in ways not apparent in PR materials and conversations with the teachers.

I went to a Church of England school. We had heavy doses of religion on a daily basis, including scripture classes a couple of times a week. The religion, however, never entered into academic classes such as biology, physics and history. We learned the story of Adam and Eve in scripture classes. We learned about evolution in science classes.

In Steiner schools, Steiner's supernatural and pseudo science beliefs are incorporated into the academic curriculum. From what I and other parents have observed, children are taught to distrust modern science and technology *in favor of* belief in an unreal world as imagined (or, in many cases, plagiarized from other spiritual belief systems) by Steiner.

When questioned about nonsensical Steiner teachings, Anthroposophists usually answer "Steiner is sometimes difficult" (insinuating that you have to study lots and lots of Steiner writings to understand what he means) or that Steiner himself said not to take his word for anything but find out for yourself (following his directions for finding out, of course, which involves becoming clairvoyant!). In spite of this, as far as I know, no Steiner skeptic has ever succeeded in getting an Anthroposophist to acknowledge the falsity of any specific Steiner claim.

Would your husband want your children to be taught the following in a science class?

"Now science believes that the heart is a kind of pump; that is a grotesquely fantastic idea. Occultism has never made such a fantastic statement as has modern materialism. It is the feelings of the soul
which give rise to the movement of the blood; the soul drives the blood, and the heart moves because it is driven by the blood. Thus the truth is exactly the opposite of what materialistic science states." (149-150
Rudolf Steiner, Theosophy of the Rosicrucian, Rudolf Steiner Press London, reprint 1981, lecture from 1907)

And would your husband want your children to be taught science by a teacher who believes such rubbish?

And how about this for geography:

“[A]n island like Great Britain swims in the sea and is held fast by the forces of the stars. In actuality, such islands do not sit directly upon a foundation; they swim and are held fast from outside.” (Faculty Meetings with Rudolf Steiner, p. 607.)

And this for astronomy:

“[I]t is not that the planets move around the Sun, but these three, Mercury, Venus, and the Earth, follow the Sun, and these three, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn, precede it.” (Faculty Meetings with Rudolf Steiner., pp. 30-31.)

Steiner's teachings are replete with rubbish like this. It's not that difficult for a moderately intelligent adult to recognize the rubbish for what it is. Unfortunately, that is not the case for children. They sit in classrooms, trusting that what their teachers are saying is true and based on reality, not on the fantasies of some long dead occultist.

I strongly suggest your husband do masses of Internet research on Steiner and Anthroposophy before he commits your children to an education that I believe will deprive them academically and socially in many, many ways.

Best,
Margaret

My kids are 2 and 3 so really right at the beginning of this "journey". My dh is still really keen for them to go to MH, he's a teacher himself and (like me) is really into the whole natural parenting thing. He's an atheist and thinks that believing in gnomes is no more ridiculous than believing that a man walked on water. He knows a lot of older Steiner kids who don't believe the anthroposophy but still love the school. It does worry me that they don't need a teaching qualification to teach there but actually that is the same as most private schools.

"It mentions Steiner in the margin and basically says he was way ahead of his time."

Yet to those of us who criticize Steiner's racist and antisemitic statements, Anthroposophists reply, "He was a man of his time."

"No-one expects a thesis on anthroposophy, but the basic tenets of reincarnation, spirit worlds, etc etc would be a start.And would , of course, be honest, truthful and a more complete picture than the one they are trained to give, wouldn't you say?"

No, I wouldn't say that.

Pete- Steiner way ahead of his time - I love it!
Isenhart, I'd be really interested to see links to the school literature and websites about anthroposophy, and difficulty in transfering to other education systems. I've certainly never seen them.
Anthroposophy micht be mentioned as in the Michael Hall prospectus, but the mention rarely goes as far as an explanation.
And if explanations are asked for, it is met with false interpretation, shock or exasperation, as on the US forum. Often, the schools or anthroposophists will say- "how on earth can anthroposophy be exlained in a short paragraph?"
or "it's far too difficult to try and unravel the complex ideas involved" and so- end of story.
No-one expects a thesis on anthroposophy, but the basic tenets of reincarnation, spirit worlds, etc etc would be a start. And would , of course, be honest, truthful and a more complete picture than the one they are trained to give, wouldn't you say?

"The only way the internet can be useful finding out the real truth about Steiner education is on forums like these, which the anthroposophists do their utmost to gag."

And the real truth is, as I've heard it expressed here, is that anthroposophy underlies the curriculum in a Steiner/Waldorf school. In addition, a Waldorf education should be viewed as a long-term commitment in part due to the difficulty a child most likely will face in transitioning to another system.

I have seen these truths in other places on the internet and even in school websites and literature.

Also, notice they wave the requirements of:

* State Teaching qualification.

* A Degree and Post Graduate Certificate of Education.

in lieu of... you guessed it:

* Proven successful teaching experience in another Steiner school

"Highland Hall's website also makes no mention that I can find about Anthroposophy, reincarnation, etc. It mentions Steiner in the margin and basically says he was way ahead of his time."

You know what they say, Pete, one person's margin is another person's text:

"The Highland Hall community invites you to explore Waldorf education from early childhood through high school. Waldorf education is based on the research into child development conducted by Austrian educator and philosopher Rudolf Steiner (1861-1925)."

BTW, at Michael Hall, they have an opening for a class teacher. One of the job REQUIREMENTS is Interest in and knowledge of Anthroposophy and the footnote says: This includes continuous work on the teacher’s own moral/spiritual development

Highland Hall's website also makes no mention that I can find about Anthroposophy, reincarnation, etc. It mentions Steiner in the margin and basically says he was way ahead of his time. hmm

The school prospectus for the school our kids went to was updated in 2007. It makes no mention of anthroposophy, no mention of reincarnation, spirit worlds, souls, etheric cosmic or asral forces. you would imagine, from treading the glossy pretty stuff, with pictures of little blond children making bread and playin the cello, thatvit was a natural child centred creative envioronment for learning, not an induction to a cult like pseudo religion.
Itis misleading in the extreme; it is deceiptful.
The only way the internet can be useful finding out the real truth about Steiner education is on forums like these, which the anthroposophists do their utmost to gag.

"Isenhart, have you been on other threads on mumsnet? You should try it, there are some interesting discussions going on."

No. Thanks for the advice.

"I was surprised that the continuity of children in the class was implied rather than the continuity of teachers and staff."

The reason why I was surprised is that my own school's attrition rate consistently runs several points higher than the public or state schools. On the other hand, the state schools double and triple track whereas Waldorf Schools in the U.S. are typically single-track, i.e. one class per grade, so perhaps that could account for this emphasis.

"Isenhart7, if you had read Janni's post, you'd have seen she mentioned the fact that when she enrolled her child, she had no access to this sort of information."

Obviously, I did read Janni's post because I responded to it. My point is that parents, in my experience, have become much more sophisticated about school choice.

As a result, my children's school proviodes much more information than they used to. The school's Strategic Plan and Parent Handbook are both available on their web site, for example.

Certainly, one should be able to form a more complete picture of a prospective school environment now, with virtual reality, and Janni's point was, I thought, that it will be interesting to see what impact the internet will have on Steiner school enrollment.

I hope and expect that the internet is and will be a great tool for families to find the right fit for their children.

Sprocketgirl - I second what Northern says about Diana. She is both a former Steiner parent, a former kindergarten helper and someone who has done an extensive amount of research into Steiner since leaving. I have been really impressed by her posts and would urge you to have a good look at them.

Sprocket, Diana knows alot about Steiner education, she is well worth listening to smile

Isenhart you said
" I was surprised that the continuity of children in the class was implied rather than the continuity of teachers and staff."

I was talking to the parent of a child at my dd's (new) school on Saturday. I knew her daughter had been to a Steiner school before attending this one too, but what I hadn't known until last week, was that she was a trained Steiner teacher. She did buy into all the spiritual anthroposophical stuff, and was happy that her two children ahd been Steiner educated until they were 11. But one of the things which she found very hard to take, was the continual emphasis on the class as a whole as opposed the the individual. Each child was not valued individually. This was something I remember too, and wonder if anyone else found that? The children were never praised for doing something kind, thoughtful, well, working hard. Never.
One of the things one would hope from a school sold as Steiner is, would be that your child's individualality, and things particular to them would be nurtured. But in actual fact it is the opposite.
The other thing she said was, that in the first weeks of her son being ther, his teacher rang and said "We need to talk about helping D to change his left-handedness" As a Steiner trained teaher she disagreed with this ,( when it came to her own son).

Isenhart, have you been on other threads on mumsnet? You should try it, there are some interesting discussions going on.
On a forum in the US, I was blocked from the Waldorf threads, because I didn't post enough in other threads!
Bollocks!
Anyway, I posted in the art, literature and gardening threads, quite often, but that wasn't enough for the police there.
Aha wink

, you only come here because the other forum is so boring

Isenhart7, if you had read Janni's post, you'd have seen she mentioned the fact that when she enrolled her child, she had no access to this sort of information. The same goes for us; I had hardly any access to the internet 5/6 years ago when we were investigating Steiner education. Strange to think of now. So, we asked the school to give us recommended reading about the education; after all, it is a major commitment; the school literature does not mention anthroposophy, soul, reincarnation, spirit worlds or anything relating to that.The books they recommended didn't either.
Since anthroposophy is the mainstay of the education, and absolutely central to the curriculum, I think this is dishonest in the extreme.
As Pete says, at least Michael Hall mention it, and say that the parents "may" notice it when they,ve been there fro a while. The emphasis very much on the fact that they won't be told upfront about it, only notice when they've been there a while! They also admit anthroposophy is "in the curriculum, the approach to each child, the teachers’ training, the organisational form of the school, the approach to food, clothing, play and even medical treatment." and how strange it is.

Hello again sprocketgirl,

I looked briefly at the web site for Michael Hall. One of the highlights in the section I read on Steiner Education seemed to be on the social aspects of the education and the benefit of having a class of children together for twelve years. I was surprised that the continuity of children in the class was implied rather than the continuity of teachers and staff.

The school should have statistics available on their attrition rates for both students and faculty/staff and it should be an easy matter to compare these to other schools you may be considering.

This is not something I ever looked into before enrolling my first child, however I later became quite familiar with both local and national averages and how our school differed, and why, in any given year.

Michael Hall: there is not a lot I can say without violating confidences told in a private place. I can say that it is an anthroposophically very intense place. I wouldn't even go near the place, personally.

"I think the advent of the internet is interesting in terms of whether or not parents continue to invest in Steiner, when able to avail themselves of all the facts."

In my experience, Janni, the parents who actually consider their child's education an investment, and I know of many, have researched their options extensively including reading schools' past annual reports and prior year's tax filings (both of which are often available on the internet.)

For many years now we have had families that have relocated from across the country in order for their children to attend this particular school and one of the major sources of information for them has been the internet.

I think the advent of the internet is interesting in terms of whether or not parents continue to invest in Steiner, when able to avail themselves of all the facts.

When we sent our eldest, six years ago, we had no access to any of the sort of info. available here. I specifically asked his kindergarten teacher whether he would be academically disadvantaged in the long term by having an extra year in kindergarten and she assured me 'no'.

Now that he si nearly twelve, I can see that t
that is categorically NOT the case, however.

With your first child you can be far more trusting of those who seem to know what they are doing...

Also sprocketgirl-MH should be able to provide a list of College acceptances and whatever is comparable to SAT and ACT test averages for the students in the MH Upper Grades. These are also things that I requested and received prior to my first child's enrollment in the first grade.

"Oh hi Isenhart, funny how you pop by when someone is interested in Steiner education"

That's what this thread is about.

"just keeping an eye?"

No.

"Watching for new initiates?"

No.

Sorry to join in late. I think Isenheart gave some excellent advice... See how Michael Hall students stack up in local colleges. I've been keeping an eye on Michael Hall since hearing from a parent there many years ago. Their story could have been mine except for minor details. My kids went to Highland Hall - a 50 year old Waldorf school in Southern California. Michael Hall seems to have the same very serious problems Highland Hall has.

I'm encouraged, however, by the fairly decent job of disclosure (at least for a Waldorf school) they produced in their prospectus. Some schools hit bottom and start to turn around - others just veer off in a new direction that's equally problematic. If Michael Hall is disclosing the true extent to which Anthroposophy permeates Waldorf (and their statement, again, is encouraging), then that's a good start... (I wish Highland Hall would make at least baby steps in that direction).

Northernref has a point about the Waldorf teachers being more open to people who appear more receptive. It may serve you to show a lot of wide-eyed enthusiasm for anything spiritual-looking. They might just let on a little more about what drives the school (and there will be a lot of knowing looks wink

).

Good luck to you!

Sprocket- I also meant to say- you're welcome! And sorry I ramble on. I really hope you make the right decision for you. And have the time to really sit back and weigh everything up. It's a huge decision choosing a school, but with steiner more so, because you're comitting yourself and your family to a whole way of life for years, and extricating your kids from it and sending them elsewhere is hard but not impossible speaking from experience grin

How old are your kids? Still very small?

Sprocket, for a "net novice" you're doing very well smile

I'm not much better though.
I've met a few teachers from Michael Hall- there was one who particularly stood out- I think he was Dutch, and was very charismatic. (This was before we realised the full extent of the anthroposophical web you understand, and we were quite enthusiastic about the whole Steiner thing.) Anyway, as a Steiner teacher, I should imagine this particular man was quite inspiring. Looking back, and knowing what I was only gradually learning then- I would think that the charisma is also quite anthroposophical, spiritual, believing in cosmic and astral forces and the higher worlds. It's something that anthroposophists can give out- a kind of superior confidence, which comes from them *knowing", while the rest of us are stumblimng around in the dark. They will be saved in Steiner's "war of all wars".
But obviously, that confidence and knowingness is quite alluring.

I don't think Michael Hall's academic results are atall impressive to be honest. But then , you don't end your kids to Steiner school for academic results. That goes totally against the grain ( academia is too Ahrimanic, not spiritual enough.) But after however many years of education, I think you would want enough qualifications to be able to do what you want to do. ( My eldest- 13- isn't particularly academic, and is dyslexic, which wasn't picked up at Steiner. She is talented at art, loves making things, and biology! She wants to make wildlife documetaries. I would hate for her drams to be shattered for the sake of a "spiritual education")

There was a woman on another chat board, in the States actually, who said she sent her children to Steiner school because the children there "looked cool"; the same woman also likened living with her children to living with the Bloomsbury Group, because they had discussions and painted. The image obviously was ultra important to her- she must have had the label "Bohemian intellectual" imprinted in her brain! Very shallow reasons I know, but Steiner school's don't have a monopoly on that style of education, which is the impression they love to give. People buy into it , and also for what it isn't.
Most arts and culture people find the "art" extremely prescribed and copied, and the children aren't encouraged to read literature atall until they're about 14- everything they are taught comes from the mouth of their one teacher.

I have to say, that since my eldest daughter has been going to her liberal, progressive, arts/drama orientated secondary school (a Quaker one) she is so much more confident, interested, alive,is given respect and responsibility, has amazing teachers; the drama, art and music are wonderful, they have artists in residence for art, sculpture, english, poetry, they have orchestras, bands, singing, the biology teachers let them have an aray of creatures, the physics teacher is so enthusiatic, he has groups of them watching stars, who have to be picked up at at god knows what hour. Today she came home having been picked to go to masterclasses as gifted in art. It makes the Steiner curriculum a joke in comparison. The children were so bored , even the most anthroposophical of the parents complained. Steiner schools are meant to produce confident children, but somany I know had their confidence totally undermined there.

Oh hi Isenhart, funny how you pop by when someone is interested in Steiner education- just keeping an eye? Watching for new initiates?

"I do have a lot of opportunities to talk to former and past pupils of the school so I can now do that with my eyes open."

Dear sprocketgirl,

All three of my children attended a Waldorf school for Kindergarten. When it came time to decide on a first grade for my eldest I called the local University and spoke to the admissions counselor specifically about their experience with Waldorf students.

If you have a College or University nearby that takes kids from MH this could be worth a call.

former and past means the same thing doesn't it!, I meant present and past! hmm

Thanks so much for spending the time to answer my questions northern. I'm really glad I joined Mumsnet (I'm such a non-computer person normally so I can't believe I'm having a virtual conversation!). I do have a lot of opportunities to talk to former and past pupils of the school so I can now do that with my eyes open.

The other thing I would seriously research, (and another thing not to take the school's word for it) is find out what the kids who leave go on to do, how many kids stay at the school, or more to the point, how many leave.

How they deal with dyslexia, left handedness for instance( karmic, past life issues).

And realise you will be expected to do alot of helping, fundraising, cleaning gardening etc. (And not for world disasters like Burma, as my daughter's Quaker school does, but for themselves)
For me, I found this terrible, they were completely wrapped up in their own spiritual path , journey Steiner daze, to the detriment of all else.

Good luck Sprocket.
We thought Steiner would be a marvellous alternative to state education, we really thought we'd found a wonderful creative, natural child centred school, but wow, were we wrong....
I truly believe it's a pseudo religion and a cult.

I know Michael Hall. (I know two teachers who will be starting there in September too.)
It's the oldest school in Britain, and yes, it is based very much on anthroposophical lines.
It's a very beautiful setting for a school- all those acres wonderful grounds and the old buildings mingled with that European Steiner architecture is very appealing. (I thought the parents there were the sort who wanted a private school education, but a bit more arty)

Sprocket- they are all based on Steiner's anthroposophy, whatever they tell you. It's up to you as to whether you take that on board I think. I'm completely against the anthroposphical curriculum, I just don't believe or buy into it; the reincarnation, clairvoyance, spiritual worlds, angels, gnomes, etc, I just don't believe it and for us, it was wrong to have our kids taught in an environment where these beliefs are a given.
The schools line is "We don't teach it to the children", and no, they don't. But in their training, they are taught to "direct" the children towards "concealed levels of truth"- and these truths are spiritual worlds etc. So,for instance, my eldest daughter is very practical- she likes to know how things work, takes stuff apart, find out why things are. At Steiner, she never got a straight answer, often silence, or the question asked back, lots of deflecting methods to steer her away from a solution to for instance why the moon is silver or something.(Steiner's reasons were probably totally bonkers- to do with Ahriman the devil or something, considered to be scientifically correct too) This is meant to encourage awe and wonderment in Steiner's method, but caused frustration and confusion.
But for some kids maybe it works.

This is from Michael Hall's prospectus, which says quite alot I think ( my bold)

"Many different paths lead children and their parents to Michael Hall. From the moment of their arrival the new family will notice the friendly, relaxed approach – and soon, after more involvement, they may realise that ideals of a far-reaching nature and a complex picture of the human being – Anthroposophy – lie at the heart of it all. This is seen in many areas – in the curriculum, the approach to each child, the teachers’ training, the organisational form of the school, the approach to food, clothing, play and even medical treatment.All this is very different – but why?The ideals underlying Michael Hall were established by Rudolf Steiner at the beginning of this century, yet they are still new, astonishing and invigorating. Though these concepts may seem strange, confusing or even uncomfortable to some, working with them is a challenging task for teachers and parents alike."

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STEINER WALDORF SCHOOLS AND INSTITUTIONS #2