Mumsnet members get a 10% discount from Boden (including free returns and free delivery), The White Company, sweaty Betty, Luxury Family Hotels, JoJo Maman Bebe, Siblu, Blooming Marvellous, GLTC, Bump to 3 (the official online shop for Grobags) and more. Click here for more info Join mumsnet here.
Not so beautiful ceremony when you have to participate in it though. Candles dripping on your hands hurt. (Sure, spiritual, but not comfortable.)
It's definately religious. The whole reverence and solemnity and whatever. Like eurythmy, actually spooky in a way.
It's a pity I threw all my waldorf stuff in the garbage. Otherwise I would've been posting gnome and sheep pics, and probably every other ugly thing I produced in school.
PLANS is suing two school districts in California claiming that Waldorf/Steiner schools violate the separation of church and state because they are religious schools.
The ceremony was taped as evidence of its religious nature. Anyone who has attended the Advent Spiral ceremony at a Steiner school knows that it is a religious ceremony. It's a beautiful ceremony, btw.
If this doesn't work, it's on his "User talk" page at wikipedia dated 22 October 2006. He calls himself Thebee. The link is to an old version of the page, and I didn't check its latest version but I'm sure he's removed it or archived it - he is famous for very swift and efficient archiving of things that make him or Steiner look bad - but if you look at the history of the page using that date, you would definitely find it. That's one nice thing about wikipedia . . . it's possible to hide things, but unless you get an administrator to do it, the evidence is always there to be uncovered if someone knows where to look.
No pigs were knitted. At 6, last year of kindergarten, my grandmother had to knit a sock, though. It was to be used as a horse head, on which I was supposed to attach the ears - I made them bright pink on one side and bright yellow on the other - and make the hairs (also pink and yellow, naturally ). I took so long to finish, I got detention. In kindergarten!! But there was no knitting, because we brought the sock from home.
In 1st or 2nd grade I knitted (or crocheted, I don't remember) a sheep. It took for ever, too.It was probably 2nd grade, and 1st grade was knitting a gnome.
zooey thanks so much for the pig quote, the pig with its extra cosmic substance, that's interesting new info to me. there is always a reason and practically everything is symbolic, don't let thebee tell you otherwise. now I know why waldorf children knit pigs, I didn't know that before.
It's easy to picture that these things arriving in the mail afterward seem chilling.
I have a couple of old bags in the back of the closet with half-finished old Waldorfy toys, and they definitely give me a shudder if I peer into it. Yeah, they're angels and dolls and fairies and other totally harmless symbolism . . .
One reason they're freaky is they're often faceless, another little Steiner oddity.
"But nothing would surprise me- i wouldn't be atall surprise if the teacher put the stamps on the letter, and then with an evil anthroposophical little spiritual half-smile, thought "This could have esoteric meaning- if you were esoteric enough."
Symbols don't have to be "evil" or have a negative content to freak somebody out. These people make even nice symbols freaky just because they act so freaky themselves. They had my kid actually afraid of angels. Angels . . . They were always blahhing on about angels and he developed some really negative associations with angels. If they had sent us a package with angels all over it after we left I can tell you we would not have appreciated it, and would have viewed it as hostile.
"I'm waiting eagerly for the 6-cent-story and the revelation of the wiki-truth!"
Zooey, from rummaging around in critics archives I don't find it. It was before my time. I find Dan mentioning it in May of 2000 and saying it happened "a couple of years ago" but I can't find anything from then. He could have been misremembering the time frame. Or maybe it was reported to him privately or on the phone. Debra's post sounds like she knew of the incident personally and that the parents were right to be concerned. She says the stamps were "no accident."
Sune posts at one point that the number 6 is a symbol of harmony and maybe the teacher covered the package with six-cent stamps to send good wishes to the family. Not impossible, but also somewhat odd. How about sending a card that says "Best wishes" like an ordinary human might do?
I, too, think the family was right to be concerned. That doesn't mean the Waldorf teacher really was trying to put satanic symbols on the package, that seems unlikely to me, as anthroposophy and satanism are not the same thing and have no real connection. I have never known an anthroposophist who was into satanism, and think it is very unusual if it ever happens. But absolutely parents are right to be concerned when their child leaves a school due to mistreatment and later receives an unusual package in the mail. I am not sure but it sounded as if there was no word of explanation in the package, and that would add to the strange and worrisome effect created.
Most often, the explanation for strange, socially "off" things Steiner teachers do is not evil or malevolence but simply dishevelement, disorganization, and cluelessness about the real world, failure to understand how their actions will affect people, or poor interpersonal skills. (Ahem - kind of like someone we know here?) Not great qualities in a teacher - and doing something slightly wacko like sending a mysteriously wrapped package to a newly departed, disgruntled family strikes me as straight out of the Waldorf "How to Alienate Families" handbook. Maybe there's a special section on how to completely freak out a family that has already left unhappy
This actually strikes me as very funny, it's fairly typical of anthroposophical psychology. They imagine they're way too spiritual to live in the world the rest of us live in, so they don't have to behave according to the standards the rest of us do. So, it's okay to threaten to punch someone - everyone following that?
Yes he really threatened to punch him. Of course he then stated that he was really way too spiritual to ever do this, it was just a passing fantasy LOL.
I thought I'd better go and look this up and post the link before he gets in there messing around with it and removing it. Here it is, with the exact quote below the link:
Su ne wrote to Pete Karaiskos, a Waldorf dad whose three children have been absolutely abysmally treated in a very well-known, old and venerable Waldorf school in the US:
"A minute ago, not now any more, but a minute ago, when I read you latest insult, it made me think: At some time, I'll punch you somewhere for your endless row of personal attacks and insults if we meet. And I'm a peaceful man. The last time I fought with someone was when I - once - in school fought with someone in grade nine. And I'm a Conscientious objector. Just to give some perspective on it. Thebee 20:42, 22 October 2006 (UTC)"
Well I'm not sure where it is. my 7 yr old's face was a picture - we left quite fast- before they could write ceremonious leaving plays about our children being too dark skinned to play in the garden with the blond princes and princesess....
When the parcel arrived, my youngest daughter was so excited, none of us had an idea of what it was- her face fell an absolute mile!
Particularly since they forced her to knit right handed, when she's left handed.
And the pink! It was so bright!
Zooey- didn't you knit a pig at 7?
My middle daughter knitted a gnome maid after her pig; a maid? What?
And thn a fl pink elephant. i suppose grey is too close to black in the spiritual realm of colours. Pink must be more spiritual. Steiner said it was like skin tone didn't he? EERRR- not EVERYONE'S skin tone actually.
Maybe that's why the pig was such a bright pink-they didn't have a darker more cafe au lait colour for our kids.....
"Here we must say to ourselves: As much as possible of cosmic substance must be carried, as it were, into a sack. Oh, the pigs, the fat pigs and sows — what heavenly creatures they are! In their fat body — insofar as it is not nerves-and-senses system — they have nothing but cosmic substance. It is not earthly, it is cosmic substance. The pigs only need the material food they eat, to distribute throughout their body this infinite fulness of cosmic substance which they must absorb from all quarters. The pig must feed, so as to be able to distribute the substance which it draws in from the Cosmos. It must have the necessary forces for the distribution of this cosmic substance."
Pretty bad to get a symbolic half heavenly creature! Half the cosmmic substance!
I thought it was quite a good story. When my daughter left Steiner - they posted her .. a... wait for it... HALF KNITTED pink... PIG! Yes! With voodoo instructions about how to sacrifice finish it.
It was gruesome.
But nothing would surprise me- i wouldn't be atall surprise if the teacher put the stamps on the letter, and then with an evil anthroposophical little spiritual half-smile, thought "This could have esoteric meaning- if you were esoteric enough. And if you weren't, you could just pretend you don't know what anyone's talking about, because you're so swet and spiritual and have a singy songy voice and werar soft floeing garbs, like an angel....."
and as we know, clairvoyance is far from perfect. Bad phone line to the spiritual world. Perhaps the ahrimanic computer interferes with the transmission, and we know Sune sits at the computer quite a lot.
Changing the subject is not going to do you any good in this case LOL!
You threatened to punch him! And if you don't admit it I will later find the link that proves it. (I'm supposed to be working over here).
You made a physical threat against him. You probably didn't mean it, I know you are really a big baby and it was safe to say "I'd like to punch you" to somebody thousands of miles away, but it's another perfect example of how you don't realize how the real world works, and think you are special and other people should always excuse your inappropriate behavior because you are sensitive and spiritual or something.
You know I am right. Either you retract it or I will post the link. Your choice.
But meanwhile the full links to the six-cent stamps discussion please? You're getting yourself into a lot of things you can't follow up on over here aren't you?
I looked in critics archives. I find that Debra Snell was apparently personally familiar with the incident of the doll mailed in the strange package, she reported that the police had been called and that she personally believed the six-cent stamp thing was "no accident." I think there's always room for paranoia on both sides, but I do trust Debra's take on situations she's been personally involved in - she is a person who has been around the block a few times, she has experience with more than one Waldorf school, and she is a tough person who can handle tough people. She's not easy to scare. She's personally had death threats from Waldorf supporters. (She's the president of PLANS, the organization behind the litigation against the school districts in California running public waldorf charters.) If Debra thought this family had reason to be concerned, my take is that maybe they really did.
I think that mums here can put themselves in that family's shoes, and would understand feeling "better safe than sorry" in such a situation. We don't know exactly what had happened to this child.
But anyway - do you want me to prove that you threatened to punch Pete or do you want to take back your mischaracterization of that episode too. Your choice.
"He needs to realize that what looks normal to him doesn't look normal to ordinary people with ordinary lives."
You mean like the ordinary male waldorf parent and fervent waldorf critic with a normal life, that you supported for seven months on WP, until he was banned indefinitely from editing any waldorf related article for his behaviour, who at one time told that he suspected that I would contact someone at his children's school, to ask them to beat him up, and who told that he thought that I would have to change my pants if I met him in person?
"It would take dozens to mail any size package at all and these days, such a package in the US would probably attract the attention of Homeland Security."
When I was young and (more) foolish (than now) I used to buy lots of minor-value stamps and cover the whole envelopes of letters I sent. It really seems nuts, but I took a lot of artistic pride in this endevour
Hey bee. Do you want to provide the link to the actual discussion you are referencing? as usual, I've clicked your links, and I find your highly distorted "summary" of the incident on your own web site, but no link to the original discussion. A bit of a pattern you have - an ironic one considering your attempt to derail Peter Staudenmaier's career claiming he's not a "scholar."
Let's find out if you are really interested in discussing what happened there. I've just rummaged around in the critics archives and a search of the word "voodoo" does not turn up the thing you have in quotes connected to Debra Snell's name. I think they're "scare" quotes - they're your misleading characterization of whatever it was that Debra originally said - and, more importantly, what she said it in reference to - another parent who had just told of very disturbing experiences their child had undergone in a Steiner school.
Let's see it Sune - post it here. I'll even give you a break from reminding you about the approximately 30 other unsourced quotes from celebrities on your web site(s) that you're obviously having a little difficulty tracing for us so we can find out if they are bogus or not.
Post a link to what the parent who told the story about the six-cent stamp package actually told the critics list about her child's experience in a Steiner school, and let the mums on mumsnet see the real story.
I dare you. Not your web site - the mum's own words; the critics' response; the context in which the parent received a bizarre package in the mail from the school. That's the end of the story luv, not the beginning.
A quick tip: I've got to run but I'll post it later if you don't. Here's your chance!!
Diana- thankyou for your post- it's exactly right.
Sune isn't a threat. He's a desperate man trying to save his cult.
I don't like the idea of a 60 yr old man with no kids saying he's not really trying to find out where I live- it does make me feel uncomfortable that it's even crossd his mind actually.
Sune- what makes you think that I am Leweekend on the green parenting forum? I have never used my name there.You are guessing- you don't know that's me for sure do you? Do you sune? How do you know that that is me? By stalking me? By making notes about which sites I've been to? Are you exhibiting normal behaviour do you think?
And for anyone interested- the Green parenting forum discussion, which the anthroposohists are so afraid of they must have threatened some sort of action, has had 935 views- it's up there now www.thegreenparent.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1086.0
What the anthroposophists find threatening I don't know- it caused much interest as can be seen, more than they' had for a very long time. There is nothing inflammatory there- just mother's comparing notes. And they are so scared- they're trying to get it deleted. What are you trying to hide?
Damn though, that was a great opportunity to review that bizarre little story.
In my take, if the doll was sent back in a package covered with six-cent stamps, it was probably not satanic (reference to 666), though you can understand why parents who were already enraged because their child had been mistreated, were nervous and perhaps paranoid at that point.
It is more likely that the Waldorf teacher, being somewhat impaired as many of them are at dealing with the real world, hadn't made a trip to the post office in awhile and had to scrounge for stamps. It sounds like the last time she bought stamps was about 1950. I'm not sure what year that story was, but it's been decades since six cent stamps would be a reasonable way to mail any package anyhwere to anyone, it was definitely an odd little thing to do.
But I definitely don't blame the parents for wondering if it had a "meaning." They'd probably just found out that everything from the lightbulbs to the kitchen sink has a "meaning" to nutty Waldorf teachers. If you're going to mess around in an occult religion, and keep it as secret as possible from the parents in your class, then when people leave because you were incompetent or mean to their children, yeah, they're worried about occult symbols in packages you send, especially when the means of mailing the package is so bizarre. (It's really not a typical thing to do, to mail a package with entirely six-cent stamps. You'd need, let's see, what's a postcard cost these days? It would take dozens to mail any size package at all and these days, such a package in the US would probably attract the attention of Homeland Security.)
For the record, I do not think he is a dangerous man in any way. (So don't bother imagining I'm going to be frightened if you say I'm "libeling" you now Sune.) I think he is clueless to an astounding degree about the real world, as a result of immersion in a cult for most of his life, and has no idea how his behavior here appears to normal mothers who are concerned for their children. Normal mothers react INSTANTLY to any suggestion someone they don't know has taken an interest in their children or their children's lives. Online we assume a degree of safety in the simple fact that unless we tell them, nobody we're talking to knows who or where we are, so even if someone nutty is reading it, they're probably a thousand miles away and we won't meet them in real life. That makes most mothers, I think, feel it is all right to take the support of other mums in saying "This happened to my children" in mothering discussion groups. But the minute someone antagonistic suggests "I know who or where you are," there is no doubt this is perceived as threatening, and when young children are involved, you have people like the mums here who already had their backs up because bad things happened to their children, suddenly people are seriously worried.
Sune, it's like you antagonized a mother bear. She was already in protective mode for her children, and you've taunted her. What do you think you're going to get back?
This is a totally different situation than Sune's (foiled) attempts at anonymity here, which is not designed to protect himself or family members but to make information that he is providing appear independent and objective when it is not - referring people to his own web sites without taking responsiblity for the content, posing as a "mum" when in fact he is a childless man, disguising his motives for posting here and attempting to mislead people about the factualness of information he posts, or the fact that he is a spokesperson for a cause.
That's what I think - his behavior is neurotic and highly inappropriate but he's not a threat to anything (except logic and sanity). He needs to realize that what looks normal to him doesn't look normal to ordinary people with ordinary lives.
You're right to doubt it Diana, because it's quite common to not go to school where you live, at least in city areas like Stockholm.
Most of my school years, and kindergarten years, I did not live where I went to school. In addition, there are more than one waldorf school to choose from.
I have no idea who said what, and if Sune explicitly tried to find out what school it was about (though I don't doubt he may have tried - at least implicitly) - following people around and tracking their activity he clearly does. For some reason it seems important that someone has commented on my blog. I don't see why that would matter - but apparently it does.
Maybe we could give him the benefit of the doubt, that in Sweden where one lives is always where one goes to school ...? But I doubt it. Here, that would be very far from the case and no one would say "where I live" when they mean "where I go to school." Many people live one place and go to school somewhere else. My son takes three buses and more than an hour each way to get to school. It is nowhere near where he lives, and while I would feel very concerned if somebody suddenly said "I know where your child goes to school" - it's a big place, and it has a lot of security - it would be even more alarming if they said, "I know where you live." Especially when there are small children involved, it is very threatening and highly inappropriate to suggest "I know where you live" in online discussions.
It isn't unusual for the anthro-defenders to try to determine what school is being discussed by critics, so that they can notify the school. It's an attempt to help the school do PR damage control. While it's inappropriate and clearly intrusive, I've never thought it indicated any kind of threat to the children - other than what northern is clearly trying to avoid - her own children being ostracized or shunned by former friends and classmates: as if that's not bad enough for young children.
But saying "I'm not trying to find out where you live" - when no one suggested you were - is really seriously putting your foot in it, dude. Is "freudian slip" an English expression you are familiar with Sune?
In one discussion, xxxxx/Northernrefugee39 has stated that I have tried to find out where her children go to school. That is not the case. My use of "live" was a simplification of "school", as that normally refers to the same city or village.
I wondered if I had missed that. Why on earth would he say he's "not trying to find out where you live"? Why they hell WOULD he try to find out where you live?
"Yes, apparently, Sune, what happened was that you contacted the admins of TES and threatened them with libel suits, exactly as you did with me. This because I quoted a legitimate passage from an online periodical, communalism. It was Peter Staudenmaier's article, you know. I can quote that passage again here, if you'd like."
He's desperate and out of ideas, you see, because he's been at this for years, threatening people who criticize Steiner that they'll be sued for libel etc. We mainly laugh and say Oh really? and proceed to post it again, or post more of the same. This can't be easy to take.
On wikipedia he made a number of completely inappropriate comments indicating he had tried to research where I worked. He was trying to imply that because I (at the time) worked freelance, I could have been using multiple computers.
Why in the world it would be of interest to him or readers of wikipedia even if I did use multiple computers (which at the time I didn't, as I worked from home) was never explained. It's just a day's work to him "researching" anybody who criticizes anthroposophy or Steiner schools. He probably has a little file of your different online names and sites you have frequented, northern.
The only part that's funny is: having a lot of sophisticated computer software and "tracking" capabilities doesn't make a person smart enough to figure out what it all means. He collects all this information but he really struggles to connect the dots, and sometimes he comes up with some very funny confused information.
"The first time I noted your anti-Waldorf writings were on the WC-list, where you write under your maiden name. "
Sune, this just really really really pisses me off.
What right do you have to do this? It's creepy, and I think you should realize eventually you're going to freak somebody out bad enough that they're going to take legal action against you for this.
How in hell would you know what's her maiden name versus any other name if you aren't basically stalking her around?
If people use different identities on different sites online, they have their reasons, whether it's personal preference, keeping professional life separate from hobbies or other interests, or fear for their family's safety and privacy. Trying to connect them and post information on someone's different identities used different places comes very close to stalking or harassment IMO.
Even if no legal authority eventually tells you to stop, you should realize you make anthroposophy look like it's full of nutters.
"As members of the WC-crew have addressed me in here in these discussions using my first resp. full name instead of my nick name, I have found it to be proper to address you too, using your first names, and in the case of Zooey and Diana also one or some times including the family name."
As you very well know, neither of us have used several names. Neither of us have pretended to be someone we're not in order to point people to a number of web pages that are really our own, and not as independent as you like your web sites to seem. Only you do those things.
You would never have told people you are the person responsible for thebee.se, waldorfanswers, and americans4waldorf (and lots of the material on wiki as well) unless we had been here to disclose this. You called yourself Eva and directed people to your supposedly independent sites for "information."
I don't think we have any other option but tell people who you are. One way to do this is to tell them your name isn't Eva but something else which they will find on these sites when looking closer.
I on the other hand did tell people the name of my blog, and I have also made it clear that I'm active on the critics' list, from the moment I came here. Never did I try to assume another name and point to my own web site endevour as if it were independent (or something else it isn't for that matter).
Sune thebee- you don't I note, ever make a comment on the reasons i feel secrecy and anthroposohy has to be in the open. Or the way my kids were treated. Never You just make totally irrelevant personal attacks, or trying to prove you know my maiden name or which blogs I read- WHAT? It's irrelevant- it's not your business. Just as you have to Diana, Zooey and all the others who disagree with you.
So- thebee- are you going to answer my questions? Do you have children- actually I seem to remeber you posting that you don't Have you any experience of steiner education? Strange- that you don't answer this one- you have websites purporting to answer questions about it- and yet you have no children and have no experience. Anyone would think you were a fanatical cult follower, bent on promoting his religious cult at the cost of all actuality wouldn't they?
If you're referring to a recent dicussion board- you haven't put the whole truth have you Sune? In your usual way- you have ommitted the full picture- it was ORIGIONALLY thought of as spam- but then realised it was a "hot topic" and aroused so much interest- more in fact than the particular board had had for a very long time. Many people came on and begged for it to be reinstated; it actually caused a huge stir didn't it sune? I thought it was brilliant- they nearly had a riot on their hands- and it won't be forgotten either- so man people saw and were watching it- you could monitor how many - it had a count.
And then someone scared the owner of the board didn't they? It was causing such a stir, and the board felt threatened by someone or something.
The anthroposophists only go on and on to prove that they have something very big to hide by this.
And your actions just exacerbate it. I'm surprised the gotheneum doesn't gag you to be honest- you do more harm than good for your cause.
Sune- by posting this, you illustrate perfectly what i have been saying. That you have followed and stalked me around the net- guessing and weevling and trying to find out if it's me or not? Do you get some sort of peverted gratification from this? because I ca only assume that you do. Ypui certainly do yourself no favours by advertising the fact that you have found out my maiden name, and have followed from site to site, discussion board to blog, guessinf , and trying to wield some sort of pathetic power by or proof.
And the- good grief- it turns out you have spies too- who write to you! Proving even more that the anthroposophical machine is parenoid and intent on supressing any one telling an experience that doesn't fit in with their lies.
And yes- it -is- -harming- my kids by posting my namr here- I have asked you time and time again not to post it on here, and you ignore it. Shame on you.
The fact that you say you haven';t tried to find out where I live WHAT? Who said that? What the hell are you talking about? The fact it's even on your mind is freaky.
You obviously are trying to find out which school my kids were at, but to talk about where I live....[hmn]
"you know perfectly well that you have tried to follow me from blogs and other chat boards which have no connection to here, and where I have used nicknames to protect the anonymity of my children"
The first time I noted your anti-Waldorf writings were on the WC-list, where you write under your maiden name. I have later also noted your comments, using your first name at the blog of Zzoey, and later also have noted comments by you, using your full maiden name, I think, at one of the blogs of "Anthromama", also here.
On the WC-list, you have commented on your participation here, where you post under the nick name "Northernrefugee39". You also may have written using another nick name, before (and maybe also after) you created a sock puppet in support of yourself, that claimed to so far (in contrast to you) only have been lurking, but failed to log in using the sock puppet name, and instead used your non-lurking nick name "Northernrefugee39.
In these forums, people from the WC-crew have told about their added raids to the TES forum, and the BBC parenting forum as part of their and your anti-Waldorf crusade in different forums. The TES discussion was deleted due to one or two instances of libel. The discussion on the BBC-board was closed by its moderators, on their own initiative, seemingly due to provocative violation of their board rules, and the account of "townielite"(?) (one on the WC-crew) was deleted.
After your participation here, you have challenged me to find three more discussion boards, where you participate.
I have noted your participation in some forum discussions, where you use partly different nick names. In one of them, I have addressed one posting by you, and the discussion has dried out. In another forum, you posted so much in all threads related to WE, that your postings seem to have been deleted completely from one thread, regarded as spam. Another thread has been closed, and will be deleted in some days. The reason for this, given on behalf of the moderation team, is to protect the future of the forum and it's users. I have not written anything in the forum, and have not been in contact with its moderators. Someone else wrote to me about your participation in the second mentioned board.
As members of the WC-crew have addressed me in here in these discussions using my first resp. full name instead of my nick name, I have found it to be proper to address you too, using your first names, and in the case of Zooey and Diana also one or some times including the family name.
I have only done this for the described reason, not - in your case - to hurt your children, and have never used your full maiden name here in these discussions. I have also not tried to find out where you live.
Monkey- you are exactly spot on Thankyou We do get stick for going on about it; Ithink it's important to expose these things so others don't get seduced.
I know nothing about SW Northernrefugee, so can't really comment. Just seems to resemble any amount of other quasi-religious tyranny. The more MN's know about it the better. Congratulations!
*Sune thebee* about your stalking and personal attacks, - I think I only once mentioned another discussion on the list. What I do based on the list? - doesn't make sense. I don't do antything "based" on the list- what are you talking about? I write my own personal story, and how we as a family have been affected by the secrecy surrounding anthroposohy in Steiner education That's what I "base" anything I write on.
When we found out that many things that happened to our kids were because their teachers had been rigidly following Rudolf Steiner's beliefs, we were horrified. One of my children in particular, had been singled out because she is slightly darker skinned, my husband having Jewish/Aisan roots. When I read Steiner's beliefs about the blonde and aryan race being superior to other lower ones, and many other of his race theories, I realised why. This was only one of many many instances at the school, where teachers used Steiner's theories and beliefs about reincarnation, temperaments, spiritual worlds and clairvoyance, as -"educational"- indoctrinational spiritual preparation for the transition to the earth's next epoch. That's what I base it on Sune, and yes, it does interest me, because it has j=had such a great impact on the people I love the most. But love probably mean little, in your world of warped spirituality.
ease- wellsaid. Sune the bee rarely has any discussion or debate; he seems incapable of the simplest discourse, unable to engage in any deliberation, but links to his fatuous sites. Sune, thebee, you know perfectly well that you have tried to follow me from blogs and other chat boards which have no connection to here, and where I have used nicknames to protect the anonymity of my children. You have gone beyond the bounds of internet courtesy. I can only assume this is because you are hell bent on a kind of personal damage, rather than keeping the discussion within the realms and limits of intellectual and logical argument. Of course, this is your chosen way of modus opperandi- as proved in your vitriolic attacks on the well respected and erudite academic Peter Staudenmaier- who you devote web pages to (!) and even wrote to his University- one of the best in the States- Cornell, to try to discredit him to his peers. Nothing surprise me as to how low and desperate your actions are. Because you are unable to win the argument with above board means, you sink to the lowest personal tactics- a classic sign of a loser.
"Can you do that!? You mean arguments aren't enough??"
Since when have you offered any arguments? Assertions along the lines of 'Steiner said' (the substance of most of your references) are only incontrovertible to the already converted, or, to those willing to surrender their own critical faculties. Ever thought of answering questions in plainspeak? What did the Edinburgh parents misunderstand?
"What I don't like about him, and actually find quite disturbing, is he stalks me around the internet."
You yourself tell on the WC-list where you're active elsewhere on the net. In between also others tell where you go on your anti-Waldorf crusade. What you do based on the list of course interests me. Doesn't it interest you?
The ceremony will take place in the spiritual realm, Sune. Rudolf - or his precious little bodyless soul - will swing a copper rod - eurythmy style - and say a little "verse."
Tomorrow when you wake up, you will be a Steiner Laureate of Silliness. Let's hear a fanfare, for Sune!
I know AMum- Sune will get his come uppance. What I don't like about him, and actually find quite disturbing, is he stalks me around the internet. I don't give a whiskers about his sites and stuff because I actually think they show him up to be what we say he is! And illustrate beautifully the evasion and slippery way the anthroposophists deceive. He does tend to lower a discussion though, and weigh it down with his tedious and tiring way.
Fugee, I sympathise with your frustration, but I can't imagine anyone but Sune would think that is a list of valid and convincing points. Anyone else reading this will recognise that Sune is failing to win the argument on the basis of either the facts or your interpretation, leaving him in a position where he has resorted to the old fall-back of trying to shoot down the messenger.
Amum- it really makes you appreciate mums net when you've bee on other sites doesn't it? Things may get a bit head to head here, but it's never boring( unless you count Sune of course- the biggest bore of the century) and people are bright and have something to say. they are witty - do you know that word sune?
And mumsnet has the biggest audience of all of the parenting sites doesn't it?
Yes- 350,000 monthly users- yes, it must be the biggest in uk at any rate. Well - that's good, 'cos the Steiner threads are now legendary- they mention them on other chat boards all over the place.
Amum- he admits all that, and seems to find it amusing and something to be proud of. Blaming single parents, implying wik and google have already looked at the situation impartially, trying to defile Peter Staudenmaier's name- he admits that and is even proud. Sune- you really are nasty to think this is something to be proud of. I thought anthroposophists were meant to be so spritual, and you prove, once again, how actually they are deceiving and unpleasant.
You really cannot see can you, how you come across? Even steiner defenders are appalled by you. Do you relly think you are a good advertisement fo9r your anthroposophical movement?
Oh yes, we had an influx of people from one of the fluffy-pink-mummies forums at one stage, and some of them didn't really appreciate the heated debates they found about some issues, so they went back home to their own lovely site where everyone is always nice to everyone else, and they never mention anything which might rock the boat.... and then made nasty comments to each other about how horrid it is over here...
"I don't ever go on mumsnet because in my experience it is very vitriolic and people attack anyone with a slight variation in opinion. It's horrible there."
"Do the Gotheneum pay you ? Are you like their drone worker? Their guardian of the portals of Arihman? Sitting selflessly on your computer to deflect the critics?" Loving your work Northern
Zooey- really- like Tesco supermarket buying land so no one else can build a supermarket on it? Sune - you are so SCARED and SAD....
Do the Gotheneum pay you ? Are you like their drone worker? Their guardian of the portals of Arihman? Sitting selflessly on your computer to deflect the critics?
That ought to cost a little, I was meaning to say. How much, I don't know. 10£ per domain/year? Well, that's not a lot. Perhaps he will be happy to tell us how many unused domains he owns.
And Davy, Sune owns quite a large number of (unused) internet domains. For exemple "steinerkritik.se" and many more. (You could easily guess what kinds of word combos he finds threatening!!) (kritik=critic/-s)
The discussion going on on another chat board, (which I'm not linking to because of Sune )has more replies and viewing than any other has had there since September.
It's aroused alot of interest, and brought many people in- some saying how they agree and it's high time it was out, and some saying they're extremely interested to see this side of Steiner Waldorf being discussed.
The press take an interest in these things, and use it as a guage, so maybe it'll catch someone's attention.
SItdownplease- No - some Steiner schools cover it up more than others. Some attempt to argue with the main anthroposophist players that they are out of date etc.....But if they call themselves a Steiner School,
). I took so long to finish, I got detention. In kindergarten!! But there was no knitting, because we brought the sock from home.
