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Earlier on in this thread, people were talking about private schools excluding people with special needs or disabilities. I just wanted to say that I attended a highly selective academic school and there were several girls there with physical disabilities of one kind or another - cerebral palsy, severe rheumatoid arthritis, very impaired vision etc etc and probably others with less severe or invisible disabilities which I happened not to notice as a self-obsessed teenager. This was in a school of approx 600 girls. It seems to me that this is actually pretty inclusive. Certainly, the girl I knew who had very severe problems with her vision was offered a lot of extra help.
The poster who stated that this is a very English problem is correct. Why knock people like Xenia who are in the fortunate position of being able to afford private education.
Additionally with regard to disabilities. I am not totally convinced about the label ADHD. A friend of mine has adopted at a very young age a boy who was hitting, biting, bulling and at one point attacking the teacher. He has now been allocated a support assistant to sit next to him. He is in mainstream education Hand on heart would you want your child to sit next to him..... We can be very liberal when we make sweeping generalisations but when it affects us maybe our view changes. Sadly there was a petition from some parents to have him removed from the class. Lets be totally honest and admit that could have been any of us.
Having gone to NLCS myself, I wouldn't dream of putting my very bright ds into the private sector. Perhaps there's less externalising of problems (disruptive behaviour) as they're kicked out pretty quickly but eating disorders and self harm are often HUGE problems in these hot houses some people call schools. For boys the drug culture is enormous. I also want my son to mix with everyone and to know he can cope with the world and not feel that large sections of society are alien or even dangerous. I feel worried about him going to our local secondary comp as it too is far from perfect but at least he should continue to discover that he can learn from and have fun even with people who are not pushed to their limits and with very high iq's. All schools have problems, private schools have terrible ones and you get to pay for them too. They do tend to be in nice buildings though...
I see on the Times league table of top 100 schools in both sectors MGS is placed 32 and Manchester High School for girls is 24 (simply because girls usually do better than boys at exams I'm sure). Withington is numeber 3 in the country just one place behind my daughter's ex school North London collegiate with st pauls's girls ahead. Place 4 is girls too. Eton is 10. Habs girls is 12. Merchant taylors where my son went 18. Not often it beats MGS actually. It's doing better recently.
Place 21 is the first state school on the table - Henrietta Barnet.
Xenia, the girls school is Withington Girls which also has phenomenal results. She was saying that they do have a scheme to help with fees but even then she would struggle with the top up. She's a teaching assistant and their wages are shockingly poor.
I'll mention the Sutton Trust to her, thank you. Perhaps someone at MGS can advise her too.
Ah JudgeNutmeg, you may have grown up near me LOL - mind you in some ways I'd prefer the Millfield scene to the alternative which was Taunton, and from which my XP, BIL and other sisters XP came- all seemed aprticualrly immature for their age, very sheltered existence (was a while ago now though!).
What an eye-opener this thread is. My dh went to Bristol Cath and we can't think of any of his classmates who sound remotely posh. They were mostly the sons of Bristol shop-keepers with accents to match.
I went, as a teen, to the best parties of my life at Millfield. That's all I have to add on that subject.
My two go to an independant school in a very rural area so the dominant accent is 'ooh-aar'. Oh well.
I agree with cc. I found schools like Habs and NLCS which although not needs blind, you get in if you're very clever, and lots of not too well off people compete for places are not snobby or posh and also the children are cleverer. That's why the schools like Manchester Grammar, NLCS, Habs etc get better exam results than most of the boarding schools often NLCS beats Eton.
In general I think there is less criticism of you if you're clever and going to university (as 99% of children are and go there at these schools) in those schools than the average comp so that is better if you have that sort of child.
On help for girls with fees I am trying to think of the Manchester Grammar type girls equivalent in the area. I think it's a tragedy where one sibling does really well from a poor home because they get to a good school and another doesn't as they don't even though they are both as bright. It shows the impact edcuation has - it's what I suppose we tried to stop happening when we abolished the 11+ and grammar schools but instead the bright children then end up in the sink schools because there are not good state schools in most parts of the country so all we did was damage them rather than benefit others. If the sister is equally as bright she might win a full academic scholarship at 11+. Even my sister is currently applying for a bursary at primary level for one school. It's worth trying. Try bodies like the Sutton trust or ISIS may be able to recommend some sources or try to take on a second job to pay school fees.
I think you're right cushioncover that the absolutely most academic schools - I mean really the top handful, of which Manchester Grammar is certainly one - tend to have a different kind of hierarchy/snobbery/elitism in play (because all institutions have some kind don't they?) which is based primarily upon intelligence/wit/sparkiness or whatever. Doesn't make it better, but it is different, and certainly better for some children than the alternative hierarchies (of sportiness, or popularity, or fashion sense, or money or whatever). At the school I was at (of druggy fame, above) this was certainly true, which was a revelation for me (having been friendless before!). But one of the saddest things about it, and why I would never send a child there without careful thought, was that I knew so many boys who got all As and A*s at GCSE, all As at A-level, Grade 8 in an instrument or two, could sing or act, and perhaps good sportsmen too, and who went through school never feeling anything but mediocre. I really think it was the kind of school that made compulsory education bearable for the very very brightest, but I felt sad for those boys who felt 'average' and really weren't (and I'm sure this kind of situation contributes to the drug problem - it is by the way very largely a day school Xenia, although I boarded).
I was speaking to a woman today whose second son has just started at Manchester Grammar. Both boys are extremely bright but she's on her own and not at all well off. They are there due to MGS's 'blind entry' policy.
She was telling me that the education is outstanding and that they genuinely make her feel as if her sons deserve to be there. I found that interesting considering they are considered one of the best schools in the country.
The problem is, she has a daughter 2yrs off secondary school. Unless WGS follows suit, her daughter will end up at the local sink comp. What will this do for family dynamics?
Out of interest, does anyone know of a charity or similar which helps with fees for very bright girls from deprived backgrounds?
I still think children are better off in day academic private schools and parental influence at night. They are then less in a culture which is dominated by whatever type of child they're boarding with and have more influence from their parents. More of the top schools for results (and sport/music even) are day schools than boarding too.
I also think more children smoke at boarding school than day school.
I was at one of the most academic public schools for the sixth form - I had an amazing time, the education was extraordinary, and it transformed my life - I felt accepted and stretched for the first time (had been v. miserable at a local private school beforehand) - BUT the amount of drug taking was astonishing, including in school itself and in the boarding houses (not just at weekends). (My very first day I asked someone in all innocence where I could get some coke, meaning a can of fizzy drink, and got told precisely how and where I should go to buy some coke . . .) I never breathed a word of all this to my parents, who would have been shocked and alarmed, but the thing is that this didn't stop it being an amazing school, and the best possible place for me at the time, which is not of course to defend the drug culture, or to suggest that it didn't do real damage to some pupils. But it's a complicated issue, and I think it's too easy to assume that the 'best' schools by definition don't have issues of this kind, or that if they do they aren't really all that 'good'.
Millfield is where hey go if they're not at alla cademic but sporty, for the locals anyway- which my aprents are. They go to Sidcot for pastoral care, which is where we'd send ds2 (Ds3's Sn too severe to consider). There's a few academic enough schools in the area, but bear in mind DS1 has often been marked out as particularly able in athletics despite HFA and dyslexia and the choice makes sense.
A good frined went to a local academic, was head girl of her oxbridge uni and is now extremely high earning, professional and successful- and miserable so I would look further
I wouldn't choose Millfield. It's where they go if they're not at all bright. Children have too much money there. But overall there is less disruption in most private schools than state for a whole load of very obvious reasons.
It's not fair to criticse accents and all children rebel at some point. Obviously university students can drink too much. I've 3 in higher education at the moment and one was at Bristol. Interesting you wouldn't want them mixing with those types. I suppose some privtae school parents wouldn't want their children mixing with those with the wrong accent from some state schools either. Perhaps the better segregation at university level we now seem to have achieved (fewer children from state schools than ever getting into better universities because of the demise of state grammars) is something parents in both sector applaud as they don't want their common or posh little darlings polluted by children from the other sector/class?
This school - Bristol Cathedral School - did expell a few last year for messing about and one lad was caught with drugs. But its also a problem even in the poshest school that has Princes attending it. And then they all move on to Oxbridge or Bristol. Gawds, walking through the student parts of Bristol and dodging the vomit is an eye-opener. All the accents are ultra-posh, the students lunch in the organic placeyet I wouldn't want my kids mixing with braying sloaney types. ds1 wants to go to Bristol Uni. Urk. He's also talked about going to BCC. I'd rather he stayed at home and mixed with nice home educated kids and the SN lot we hang out with
No matter how much one pays one won't be able to avoid crass people such as Belladonna who may believe herself to be beautiful whilst her opinions are poison.
Well it does depend but I grew up near one of the poshest schools around and there was a huge drugs problem there and widely acknowledged in the press at the time too. Another local small prvate prep closed down after discipline standards were so terrible aprents panicked and (rightly) removed their kids.
OTOH there were some fantastic private schools inclusding a Quake4r one nearby, and I would be mroe than happy with my kids attending.
Fee payng covers such a wide trange that to say X and Y applies to all is completely wrong. There are good and bad much as in state education, the benefit of course is that you can talor it to you- won't happen but we'd love ds1 to go to somewhere like Millfield (DH's mate is a teacher there), as he is so incredibly talented at sports and the school here isn't sporty at all.
needmorecoffee that really does depend on the school. My DS is in selctive independent and the fees are expensive. He is 14. There are the 'nerds' and they tend to be the 'bookish' extremely bright kids. The 'nerds' are no more villified than the jocks and the cool kids. If anything the 'cool kids' are trhe group on the outside because they are viewed as screwing with the oppertunities they have They are different parts of that community. My DS swims between the groups being pretty bright but in the A teams at sports and pretty cool and handsome too. He says a couple of boys talk about using drugs but he thinks only one is actually using and the others are just trying to get bragging rights. A couple of his friends are 'nerds' and he actually feels that several of that group have traits he recognises from his brother. Their abilities are accepted and rewarded in that enviroment and they support each other.
He wanted to help at an activity centre for kids with both physical and learning disabilities and had about five boys asking if they could apply with him. His brother has never been treated with anything but kindness and respect by the boys who visit here and he is a regular at the rugby matches where all the boys greet him in spite of his determindly ignoring them.
As for the kids messing about in class - sorry - just not tolerated - doesn't happen or they are out. There are crap schools in all the sectors but the " druiggie lazy snotty" stereotyping of kids in private schools is just as redundant as the "yobbish foul-mouthed lazy" stereotyping of state schools.
Either the child goes to a crap school or was showing off. If kids are messing about in class and taking drugs without the school dealing with it your friend should get her money back.
friend of mine's son is in a private school and he was talking about the 'nerds' and the 'cool people'. This doesn't happen in HE so asked what constitutes a 'cool person'. Apparently its the teens who smoke and do drugs and mess about in class. This is despite the 9 grand a year fees and posh parents.
But there ARE disruptive children in fee paying schools.
There were identical twins in my DDs class in preprep. I once asked her how she told them apart. "Oh, that's easy Mummy", she said. "X is the naughtiest."
There are several overly bright pupils in the classes who are very pushy and command more than their fair share of teacher time.
There are children who are the product of the middle-class malaise (imho and I'm middle class) of, 'Oh Tarquin darling that is sooo wonderful, you pinched your sister/kicked that dog/pushed that old granny you are so clever and talented etc" who have no boundaries and think that they are entitled to behave as they wish.
There are disruptive pupils, one way or another, in every school.
I am always impressed by people with (sadly) first hand experience in this area who don't become tub-thumping bores but are able to retain analytical perspective.
Leaving aside the special needs points there are fewer disruptive children in private schools. First they interview the child. They also get a report from the previous head and with 4 + children competing for each place no school would bother taking a disruptive one when they have 3 clever behaving ones to take in. Then parents complain we are paying fees and little johnny cannot concentrate as Clive is on his feet thumping us all day so the children are removed who are disruptive and ultimately would be suspended and then expelled if other methods didn't work. Why would that not be so? It's a free market and parents are in effect in charge. You pay so they aren't disrupted. My ex husband was a policeman in a comp and a proper teacher in an academic private school.
Of course teenagers in every school can play up but I think the private schools have better discipline for that, systems to ensure good behaviour, boys to stand up, calling teachers sir, etc etc It works well. It's why a lot of us pay. It's very good value for money.
It's 7-10% for the MMR- these are figures that I have been quoted by the people working on the link between ASD and MMR. It'll be a bit more perhaps if you include other jabs. The DW article is good isn't it? She tends to talk a lot of sense about this sort of thing.....
You didn't sound accusing to me graciefer- I think I said the same about our school a few posts before
Sorry, I wasn't throwing around accusations, just trying to add my thoughts to the class issure debate, I was actually sort of agreeing with you, in a somewhat unclear manner.
Anyways, I suddenly remembered where I read the figure and it was onDonna Williams website which was linked to on a thread on the SN board recently. However I had the percentage wrong, she actually quotes 10%.
Not sure anyone would consider her mainstream press, but her page on MMR does make good reading.
Apologies again if I came across a bit brash and accusing
I love the way it's assumed that the private sector will NOT have any 'disruptive' kids in it. All 3 of my dses are at state school and every single one has had disruptive kids in the class. It's just too easy to get away with it. It's not SN, it's lack of discipline. The private sector will not be any different.
Must disabuse all of the idea that I introduced the possible connection between class and ASD! it wasn't me m'lud, I just threw into the debate the role of jabs. Gracie, I would love to know where you read the 20pc figure. If it was mainstream press I would cynically assume it to be a loss leader by those with a great deal at stake if people realised that a good deal of the burden imposed on parents, schools, the health service, the taxpayer and the criminal justice system by ASD could be put down to a simple non-essential medical procedure. If they admit 20pc it'll be nearer 80 pc! But then I'm a rotten cynic even at the beginning of the new year.
I ahve the e-mail somewhere of a lady who took her LEA to court to get privayte school ed for her AS son, she will pass on her info if asked (offered it on freecycle)- if anyone wants her addy just CAT me.
!) kids with as are quite often overly complinat in a school situation- quite a few like mine struggle when they get home as they feel 'safer' letting off steam that way
2) It varies, but ehre to get any form of Dh you have to see a paed, Ed Psych, SALT, OT and PT and the DX is absed on the collated reports- so imo a DX is set in stone (I do know of a DX of dyspraxia back home which turned out to be erroneous but Hallelujah for that little girl- was fab news).
3) Chatting to the SEN Prof at Uni a few weeks abck whilst at my MA interview, he mentioned they never get Nurses applying as ASD etc really isn't within their remit, as such I would say the views of your average Nure are fairly uninformed. Certainly by the time I left Nurse training (all Child and SN Nursing modules completed and passed), there wwas no real input on the subjects. Certainly no formal traning.
There is very posibly a class problem with ASD that I am aware of: it is this. ASD is genetic in my family (I agree with the leaky gut for our famillies trigger but I can see lots of things which may have ahd input). As a result, past generations of my family have been unable to hold down well paid jobs due to poor social skills, or have indeed been confined to mental health units with symptoms we would now class as ASD related. In turn thatseverely limits their earninga nd housing attainment, and therefpre reduces social class levels. For both ASd person and their carers- its the same with all disabilities in the effects it has on the immediate family.
Obv. ASD is my experience and I don't know so much about other SN, however I do believe the bad aprenting thing is implicit in only the smallest minority of cases. No doubt poor (exhausted? unsuported? isolated?) aprenting exaccerbates some issues and I know at times this has been a factor with DS1 and I, but that's not through anything alcking in me so much as the system- after X years of 2 hourly waking watches, everything suffers.
Sorry that was in reference to the original post by Candypandy about the theory of asd being connected to low incomes and mercury.
I must remember to check if my post is still relevant to the discussion, after having to leave the pc for 10 minutes in the middle of typing a response.
I am sure I read somewhere recently that only around 20% of cases of ASD would/could be related to vaccinations, so that would somewhat go against that theory.
However like you, I don't actually believe in a class discrepancy in regards to autism.
As although my friends and family would indeed represent a limited demograhic, since joining the world of special needs (DS1 is severly autistic, DS2 has Downs Syndrome), I can talk from experience that ASD does not favour any class in particular (I have met people through DS1's school, various support groups, etc, that I would never had the pleasure of meeting without said places and they indeed represent a wide section of society).
I heard someone say something that I found really eye opening once and that was 'Autism, coming to a family near you soon'.
As alarmist as that sounds, unfortunately it seems to be reality and no one should feel immune to the possibility of having their life or the life of someone close to them being affected by ASD, there is no magic shield, especially not class.
Didn't Olivia regress following MMR? (that's only half remembered so I may be wrong). Some of the recent MMR stuff includes the role of mercury before receiving the MMR.
And I think that was part of the thing with the California figures where there is supposedly a drop in numbers of various conditions when mercury was removed from the paediatric jabs, but i think there are also lots of problems with the accuracy of the California figures.
candypandy- I have heard the things you said (Sorry I totally misread the first time and thought you were talking about SBC and his IT bods meeting and baby making). It would fit with leaky gut anyway- IIRC the middle classes are more likely to breastfeed- which will provide some protection.
Yurt -- I take that on board and I think you're better informed than I am. Where the class issues are concerned I think the debate is skewed by vast amounts of prejudice, but I wanted to put the theory in the mix. I hate reading about children who are suffering real disorders having it put down to their social class or parenting -- especially when (I am absolutely sure) many of these disorders have been triggered or exacerbated by mercury. (that is, their parents trying to do the right thing). But y'know. Everyone has something to say on that one. 2shoes: actually, a few, and it's closer to me than you might imagine. If I knew hundreds -- or none at all -- it doesn't really make that much difference if there is a physiological connection. But some people might be interested enough to read a bit more. I must go -- I'm being a bad parent myself and should be downstairs with the bairns!
Yes I've heard the testosterone stuff with relation to mercury etc. Mercury is out of standard paediatric jabs now though (watch those flu jabs though!) although of courseonly recently- perhaps there'll be a drop in numbers.
TBH I suspect a leaky gut is somehow behind a lot of the rise in conditions- although it might be a whole host of different things leaking through that are causing the problems.
candypandy- most of baron cohens stuff only really relates to HFA- or more to the point AS (all his assortative mating stuff, male brain etc). I don't think he's ever been near a severely autistic child- he's certainly never done any research involving them (you can't do false belief tasks with the very severely affected). In Ds1's school autism is no respector of class boundaries. Families from across the social spectrum are equally represented.
hi -- don't know what side of the debate you are on here but my view is that "most of the people" any one person knows will probably cover quite a limited demograhic; so while interesting and absolutely viable point to make of course -- I would say not necessarily something which really contributes to the debate.
oh sod that all sounds awful when i read it through on the page. I am not horrid ghastly snob or even campaigner. It's just that it interests me and I've read about it and just think it's another theory people might like to think about. Perhaps shouldn't have put it in middle of big spikey row.
Please no one shoot me on this one. One theory which tries to account for why asd and add may be on the rise in low income or poorly educated families, if this is so, is that the brain disorders which cause these very real afflictions are triggered by the use of mercury in vaccinations. This is a highly controversial area. "Middle class" families are much more likely to question and delay vaccinations (as shown by studies in america, sorry), and in addition "middle class" families (due to a higher income) are much more able to give their children nutritionally varied Annabel Karmel type diet which helps babies metabolize some of the other chemicals in vaccines. This theory also explains why boys are more likely to be affected; it's because testosterone facilitates the transport of the mercury in the vaccines to the brain. I struggle to imagine what other reasons there could reasonably be for such a class discrepancy but then are we absolutely sure that this discrepancy exists? It has nothing to do with allegedly better middle class parenting, of that I am absolutely sure. Speaking as middle class parent in state system.
unfortunately peapod, regardless of what belladonna does in her spare time, all people can go in , is what she has posted, which , on the whole has been unmitigated offensiveness.
i cannot actually remember another thread that has gone on for this long and raised such ill feeling and upset amongst so many well respected long standing posters
Hi there, I've been a long time reader but never posted anything before! I THINK I actually know BellaDonna79 in person (she mentioned a few things about her nickname origins and her children's names were at one point posted on her profile page, they are somewhat unusual) If I'm right then I think I need to stick up for her. I agree her posts sound awful but there is history there that you don't know. It's not my place to divulge but she has very clear reasons for feeling as she does and I think if any of you were in her shoes you wouldn't be able to help feeling similarly. She is a warm and lovely person who would do anything for her friends, she volunteers with her 5 kids in an old people's home because the 'old folks' love seeing the little children so much, she sponsers children in africa and she is a fantastic mother and friend. She has been somewhat misunderstood in her posts as is the danger in a forum instead of speaking face to face. Then again it could be someone else who is a total cow with no reasons to feel how she does who we should all despise...
Custardo and VS, my GP recently acknowledged that sometimes children are sent to our local SN nursery (therefore often perpetuating the belief that they have SEN)due to the fact they are either brighter than their parents who have low IQ or very poor parenting skills and/or have not had enough decent stimulation/care in their lives.
There is a huge waiting list for this precious resource, I know my own DS was waiting ages.
i had a friend who liked the drama of situations which revolved around her. she became pregnant - and oh if wasnt everyday a lifethreatening drama for her or her unborn child - i wont even tel you about the birth
as this child became a toddler she took him to every doctor she insisted on all tests because she coundlt understand why her boy was so - what she called naughty allt he time. she was a poor parent with little imagination and she was so houisproud that having the child got in the way of her tidyness. this was her second child - she has a first the father unknown he came from canada oh the drama with the CSA anyway my point is that she saught out a diagnosis for her piss poor parenting.
if the kid cried it got crsips and chocolate - then wouldnt eat anything else - i wonder why - she persisted and persisted until someone actually said this kit had some kind of medical thing to do with his eatng. the kid as it grew more mobile and vocal became louder and more wilful and she sought and sought a diagnosis for ADHD - as she sat in her kitchen ignoring him in favour of a fag.
NOW i speak with regards to ADHD only, i dont believe it to be a disability in the instances that it does exist, it is a condition.
i do not believe that every other kid nowadays has it either.
there was another thread earlier about stifling debate - the real jist of the thread was about emotional blackmail and the "how very dare you you have made me cry" <flounce> aspects of threads that stop epeople from conributing further.
i think that this is rather turning into a "i know, i have, i am someone ith a disability....how very dare you!" instead of debating the facts.
i only know what i have lived and i do not purport to be a medical expert. but sometimes kids are too much for a parent and the parent doesnt like to admit it
my ds (10) goes to an academically selective independent school - he has TS/AS/ADHD/anxiety disorder but also has a massive IQ and is v talented at sports. Instead of thinking "oh, we must protect Belladonna's kids from this fiend who might disrupt lessons" they decided that on balance ds would be an asset to the school, as long as the right support was in place
he already had a statement at his primary school, and that was transferred to secondary - we pay the fees (although he got an academic and sports scholarship ahead of plenty of 'normal' children) and our local authority funds the statement requirements - as the SENCO said, they'd have to provide the same support if he were going to mainstream state school, and it's a lot cheaper for them than specialist provision which we'd be able to make a very good case for if we'd needed to
What gets to me on threads like this is that it is IMO, true that some children are badly behaved because of poor parenting and that some doctors are too quick to diagnose a behavioural disorder, I believe the same about the amount of people diagnosed with depression, the numbers have gone up, partly because it is more known about and partly because some doctors find it easier to say 'this is blah blah here are the tablets, bye'.
But, I would assume that is a very small minority of the people actually diagnosed, and the pain and heartache that parents go through just to get a bloody dx is horrendous, so I rarely make that point as to not offend those who truly suffer.
FWIW, I would imagine those whose children do suffer from such conditions would be the first to say DX happy docs are a bane for us all, for it gives these parents an even harder job to make their children accepted and treated properly.
Yes that's a shame reallytired- some LEAs will provide funding to be used in independent schools. DS2 and ds3 attend an independent school btw- but partly chosen because they had a better attitude towards AS than our local state school (neither has AS but I didn't want them to see children with AS being treated badly by their school).
I am open mouthed at some of the posts on this thread. A little like admitting to driving a certain type of car, I fear admitting my education preferences on here in case I am tarred with the same brush.
NMC along with LL, let me reassure you that not all parents who choose to independently educate their children suffer from the same narrow-minded bigotry. I have one DD at a seriously pushy IS and a DS with SN at a tiny, nurturing IS.
Reallytired would love some info on getting LEA to pay once statementing is in place. DS going for a statement at mo and the SN nursery he went to say that the private school will not get any extra funding although they will be obliged to meet the legal specifications with the statement. At the mo we are paying for his 1 to 1 etc.
Belladonna, other than your family, who are these "many many people" who agree with you? I agree with Xenia who said "most of us would agree with the principle that we want our children working in an orderly environment where they can concentrate", but I can't agree with your frankly bizarre remarks about SN and various conditions.
Only quickly skimmed this thread to see who the idiot was but, I am currently pg and if my child has a behavioural disorder I want them taught by someone who knows what they're dealing with, and if that involves being in a class with 'normal' children then sorry but that's the way it will be.
why are they right when there are so many other docs, specialists, SENCOS, teachers etc who diagnose , treat and teach those with the conditions you scoff at as bad parenting?
i hardly think the word of an 81 year old ex GP is more valid than some of the opinions on this thread, posted by parents of SN children who have been forced to research and learn about SN due to negative and patronising attitudes like yours.
'I spent christmas with my extended family which includes several doctors (including a child Psychiatrist) , teachers, a psychologist and a nurse. ALL of them without exception agreed that they wouldn't want their offspring in a class at school with children with the aforementioned conditions. All of them agreed that such labels are used to excuse bad parenting. Again I'm not saying all adhd children are the product of inadequate parenting but some are. Again it is a fact. You have to consider where were these conditions 50 years ago? My 81 year old grandmother was a GP, she said she could count on one hand the number of children suffering from 'hyperactive child syndrome' what is now known as adhd.'
Oh dear god, no wonder half the professionals we have to deal with are so fucking useless. Unless a professional we see is specifically ASD trained - which none of the ones you mention will necessarily be - even the Child Psychiatrist- most know jackall about those sorts of conditions- I have generally found them to be next to useless. The dangerous ones are the ones who think they do.
Yes - I would agree that we should be looking at why these conditions are increasing dramatically. SOme (especially for AS) probably is down to better dx. Some interesting stuff in Gut Journal at end of 2006 about the increase in autoimmune conditions such as diabetes. There is some evidence to suggest that in certain cases ASD is autoimmune- and the article caught my eye as the mechanism proposed was almost identical to a model for the development of ASD.
Well if you're going to stoop to this level I might as well join you... BellaDonna as I have explained before was a childhood nickname and I was born in 1979. but no, no, no, couldn't possibly be as innocent an explanation as that, so... BellaDonna = beautiful woman. because I am. 79 can still be the year I was born in because at 28 I still think I'm young, vivacious and thoroughly gorgeous. so there.
What does that make me? One wityh Aspergers and one with quadrapgeic cerebral palsy? Bad mummy of the year? No Eton for us Best stay in the SN ghetto so as not to upset all the perfect people (that was sarcasm btw....)
Belladonna um - the numbers of children with ASd is massively on the rise. In the 80's the numbers were considered to be approx 1 in 10,000 ( those are i think the numbers also quoted at the end of rainman). estimates now suggest that it may be as high as 1 in 100. I can't give an accurate number as i don't really give a toss. But when my DS was diagnosed ( he is profoundly affected) most people I spoke to had no idea wha autism was or how it affected you. Now i can't go anywhere without people saying "oh yes, my DS, cousin, friends boy has that". If the numbers are broadly accepted to be rising in this communication disorder why not in other ( and indeed related) conditions ? Did any of your relatives explain that one to you? As ADD ADHD etc are often seen in association with ASD it would actually be a bit weird if the incidences of ADD etc WEREN'T rising... As for the all encompassing wisdom of the medical profession.... there are thousands of brilliant and devoted Dr's and nurses and physicians of all sorts outr there. Having worked for many years in the field of medical malpractice there are also a fair few knobs who could not find their bums with a torch and a compass. I wonder which group you are broadly related too.
The exception to the rule is the badly bahaved kid whose parents 'plead' ADD. The sad truth is more painful
I don't think many people feel this way Belladonna. You are possibly ina minority of disablist people. Maybe you should explore your rather bigoted views? What would you do if one of your children turned out to have SN or your grandchildren? Maybe some disability equality training,mmmm?
Being a doctor or a child psyciatrist doens't exempt one from being ignorant about SN. I had a GP tell me that all kids with quadraplegic cerebral palsy were 'retarded'. Nice word there. GP was talking out of arse of course and didn't realise how ignorant he was. My son has Aspergers syndrome yet MIL who is a teacher is still in denial about it. She blames his behaviour on the fact that he has a disabled sister. Not a bad mind-twister given his sister was born 3 years ago yet he was disagnosed with ASD over 8 years ago. Aspergers is not a 'shadowy gret area' but a recognised condition with genetic tendencies.
There were more special schools in the past than there are now. In the past people did not meet many children with ADHD/ severe aspergers/ behavioural issues. They certainly existed but the more extreme ones were put into reform schools. (Effectively child prisons...)
Also I think there was a better release for excess energy for boys. I find it shocking that the majority of the children at the moderate learning difficulties school I work at are boys. Do boys really on average have a lower IQ than girls or is the problem that many boys find the national curriculum girly and uninspiring.
In particular boys are not allowed be boys without a huge telling off. My son is not allowed to play football at breaktime. He gets told off for making a toy gun out of twigs or playing power rangers.
It would be interesting to know the percentage of boys with special needs compares with the percentage of girls who have special needs in private schools.
Children with those types of SN have always been around. There just wasn't a name for it back then.
I also don't understand the insinuation that if a nurse, Child Psych and a teacher says something then it must automatically be right. Teachers are given very little training and information about SN. A nurse is unlikely to have much specialist training in ADHD, ADD etc - especially if they are someone who thinks that those conditions don't exist! Doctors too will only have a great knowledge of those areas if they have either chosen to specialise in those areas of medicine or if they have a lot of personal experience. Sorry but your attempts to justify your opinions by saying "My Aunt Josephne says so and she's a nurse so it must be true" are feeble to say the least.
I can't believe that Belladonna is persisting in defending her poisonous views. Thank goodness that she is able to buy her way out of educating her children in an inclusive school which includes interaction with SN children. This means that there is one less narrow minded, opinionated bigot to which my DS is likely to have to be exposed to.
Mmm, I am a teacher and my son was and is educated in schools with children with said conditions. I expect your family just didnt want to get in to a detailed discussion over christmas with you as your hardly open to considering you might be wrong.
Actually several members of my family clearly had and have aspergers now but their odd habits were always put down to eccentricity. Sadly as aspergers hadnt been 'discovered' when my brother was a child there was no where for my mother to go to get help.
No point in saying any thing else about your post really..
My my. hmm Maybe your extended family just wanted to get on with having a festive christmas without having you ear bashing them. Saying "of course you're right darling" in a soothing manner. It's one thing to say that you'd prefer your children educated in a homogenous, condition-free environment. I disagree with that, but hey. Another thing completely to suggest that parents of some children with special needs are at fault. Quite another thing, inflammatory and plain insulting.
Ok I resent the fact that people seem so angry about me simply stating what many MANY people feel. For the record, I am not, and was never refering to conditions such as down's syndrome, deafness, blindness, severe autism etc I am talking about conditions which do exist but fall into a shadowy grey area. Namely ADHD, ADD, ODD and, in some respects aspergers. Children with these conditions are more likely to be disruptive in a class setting than other children. That is a fact. Before you pounce I know there are exceptions to every rule so don't bother to tell me all about your darling adhd child. I spent christmas with my extended family which includes several doctors (including a child Psychiatrist) , teachers, a psychologist and a nurse. ALL of them without exception agreed that they wouldn't want their offspring in a class at school with children with the aforementioned conditions. All of them agreed that such labels are used to excuse bad parenting. Again I'm not saying all adhd children are the product of inadequate parenting but some are. Again it is a fact. You have to consider where were these conditions 50 years ago? My 81 year old grandmother was a GP, she said she could count on one hand the number of children suffering from 'hyperactive child syndrome' what is now known as adhd.
In the UK private schools are independnet schools and you pay fees. Public schools are also private and independent schools but not all private schols are the traditional "public schools" which tended to be boarding and mostly for boys like Harrow. In the US I think the word public school means the complete opposite of what it does in the UK which is even more confusing.
no just wondered. dd goes to an independant school and I was never sure of the difference. thought as seing as i might end up as a govenor it might help if I knew.
An independent school is one you pay for unless your children are funded through scholarships. They do things differently there - what differently and how differently depends on the type of school you choose.
A state school is free.
Was that what you were asking? Was there a deeper question or motive in there that I should have understood?
Yes, of course. The difficult thing for parents like I am where 100% of everyone in the family for a few generations has been at university even if not Oxbridge etc etc is to accept a child who isn't going to have the life you perhaps expect it might but I know last night at dinner my daughter was reminding
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- mind you in some ways I'd prefer the Millfield scene to the alternative which was Taunton, and from which my XP, BIL and other sisters XP came- all seemed aprticualrly immature for their age, very sheltered existence (was a while ago now though!). 
