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Anyhow, I have taken a look at your other thread and the petition and I am a bit confused.
From your petition: ".....that rear facing stage 1 car seats are five times safer for the child in an accident. Despite this, these car seats are not available on the UK market and UK parents are not informed of their existence....."
Stage 1 refers to car seats for babies up to 13kg (29lbs), roughly from birth to 12-15 months. The majority of the seats marketed in the UK for this age group are rear-facing.
I haven't read the other thread but I would assume they're talking about group 1 seats which are from 9-15kg. Supposedly from 9 months - 4 years approx.
Can't take the credit for the petition SaintGeorge as I'm just an interested Mum who will be trailing to Milton Keynes next week to buy one. The seats I'm aware of go up to 25kg (551bs?) and as far as I'm aware are also classed as stage 1 I think. I'm really no expert (yet)...just pro-choice.
group 0 (or 0+) are the rear facing baby ones that are in current use in the UK.
rear facing group 1 seats are rare, but are available in the UK - volvo dealers have them (that's where we got ours from) and dd1 only moved out of hers when she was approaching 3 (she's on the large side,though - dd2 wil probably still be in it when she's about 8 at the rate she's growing!)
I have no idea, Pixiepants. I wish they were more widespread, would have loved to have a choice of seat for dd1 (and now, dd2) but the only one we knew abou was the volvo one.
Our seat is a Britax seat, and sits on the Isofix Britax base (same base as used for their infant seat), but sits up higher.
so, imagiine a 2normal" group 1 seat, turned arouned, and set onto a base about 8 inches off the car seat.
Not a very good description, but dd1 is a tall girl (91st centile) and she was fine until about 3 ish. Would have loved to have a choice, as then could maybe have kept her in one until now, when we have bought her a group 2 seat. Would have loved a seat that was rear facing until 25kg!
I'll get the petition instigator to check out the Stage 1/Group 1? thing StGeorge.
No, you're not being thick Pinkyminky...There's much more leg room because of the way the seats are fitted, although long legs might have to be crossed or bent at the knee towards the end of the seat's useage...From what I gather anyway. Users have found they're LO's to be quite comfortable in them.
The numbers are slowly creeping up so hope no-one minds me bumping A spokesperson from Brittax told me today that the reason they don't manufacture for the UK is that UK parents/carers don't want this product. Personally I didn't know it/they existed 3 weeks ago Did you?
I knew they existed as I've had chats with the rearfacing.co.uk lady (can't think of her name) a few times in the last few months. DD is still in her group 0+ and rear facing at 15 months. She's short so she won't need another seat for a while yet - hopefully the Which? report will be able to give the results of the one they tested in next months report. hopefully it'll be a good result. Then hopefully I can get it somewhere locally! The problem with the Milton Keynes place is it's very far from me and I couldn't be 100% sure about fitting it myself. My local road safety officer likely wouldn't have a clue either.
I've been told by Maxi Cosi and Britax that there is no demand for these seats in the UK. So I told them that's probably because nobody knows they exist or if they do they're marketed for special needs.
I am the creator of the mentioned petition. An infant seat is a stage 0 seat, and will take a child from 0-9 kg. A 0+ seat is an infant seat that will take your child from 0-13 kg. This category always come as rear facing seats as they are safer for infants. A stage 1 seat is a seat for children 9-18 kg. Stage 2 goes to 25 kg and then there are booster seats.
In many other countries all stage 1 seats (9-18 kg) are rear facing and it is 5 times safer for a child to be rear facing for as long as possible as their bodies are very fragile. The sceleton mainly consists of cartilage as the child is still growing and in an accident, if the child is forward facing, the very heavy head will be thrown forward from the seat and in worst case scenarios you will end up with brain damage or a broken neck.
Hopefully if we manage to raise enough awareness Suzi2, they will be available locally in time for you.
I'm trying to get our road safety officer involved as it would be great if they were trained to fit them for those who have to rely on mail order for the time being.
Sounds like you're doing loads already but I guess boringthepantsofffriendsandfamily spreading the word and asking people to phone/ write to the manufacturers and retailers is the way forward.
BTW Britax Customer Services 01264 386 034 Option 4..but less staff on a friday I think
In Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Denmark you pratically cannot buy forward facing stage 1 seats. They are taken off the shelved by the authorities as they are not safe enough. Last year only 2 children under the age of 14 died in car accidents in Sweden. One drowned as the car landed upside down in a lake, and the other died in a side impact accident at 90 km/hour.
Knock, knock, touch wood. My only aim, I have to point out to everyone, is to inform so that more children can be safer in the car. I do not sell carseats and I am not sponsored by anyone.
Lyra. I'm hoping that if they know no different then it won't be much of an issue and have read some positive stuff about the views rear-facing. . Plus, at the end of the day sometimes the real pixiepants doesn't want to get into her highchair/buggy etc...but we manage with a bit of distraction as I'm sure others do.
LyraST, I think that it is a question of attitude and what you are used to. If all children were rear facing for longer, children would not think twice about it as it would be the norm. My daughter is 15 months and rearfacing. She never complains. I think that it's because she doesn't know that there are any alternatives. Which, in her case, there aren't ;)
We have got rear-facing car seats bought in Sweden. I would never in a million years let my children travel in forward-facing car seats. UK is always SO behind when it comes to children.
Not too late for the next generation though Lyra... Thanks for the interest and signitures...lets hope they keep coming. Am I starting to sound like Sir Bob with his LiveAid plea's?
Brilliant! I have realised that you have to use a different tactic for spotting things outside of the car. It has to be "soon you will see some sheep outside the window". It takes a little while for you to drive past the sheep and then you will hear the happy Baaaaa from the back seat. If you sit in the back seat with the child (when someone else is driving, on bliss) it is much easier to interact as you can look at each other.
I've got one from the Milton Keynes stockist. They work fine for my DD who is a tall 2.6 yrs. It doesn't matter if their legs can't be completely straight - they rest them on the seat back. That said, they have a "leg" to support them against the car floor, so are much bigger with greater leg room than size 0 seats. They;'re a bit more fiddley to fit and have a few irritating flaws, but compared with their safety advantage these are minor.
Most of the rear facing stage 1 seats are not isofix. The one I have is not (I have a BeSafe Izi Kid from HTS in Norway - a brilliant seat). It's just that kidsincars is a blog and you ended up at the latest comment, which was about isofix. There is a lot more to explore there.
OK, why are these seats so much safer? Surely it depends whether the impact of the accident is from the front or the rear? If you are rear-ended, the child will be thrown forward (from their perspective) in a rear-facing seat, won't they?
I guess, lapin, because you're more likely to have faster crashes, higher impacts, front on. Two cars head on at 30mph = 60mph impact. One car gets rear-ended doing 30mph by one doing 35mph = 5mph impact. The only way you get the 60mph impact in a rear-ender is if you're sitting still and a car hits you from behind at 60mph (or equivalent relative speeds). The high-impact front-on crash is much more likely to occur.
Maybe the wording on the petition can only be altered during office hours? Watch this space...Bed now...please help to let people know this product exists so that they can make a choice...thanks
SaintGeorge, I don't think I am contradicting myself at all. Infant seats are readily available in the UK but they are stage 0 (0.9 kg). Stage 1 would be for children 9-18 kg. My seat goes from 0-25 kg but that is beside the point. I don't know if I can change the wording in a petition that is already set up. It would have been better if I had written Group 1. I have to blame not being a native English speaker for that. Sorry!
Exactly! Seats are available in the UK. Stage 1 seats.
Your whole argument in the petition is that they are not and neither is information.
It does not make sense unless it is re-worded to say Stage 2 and/or Group 1. Getting government to take notice of petitions is hard enough. Something as simple as this is enough to get it ignored.
If there is a chance that this petition is likely to get ignored then there's even more reason to inform parents/carers that there is another 'safer' option which Britax (other manufactures?) think they don't want. That way people can choose to contact the manufactures and retailers to see if they might consider selling them in more shops.
Support from the government would help to bring about this sort of change much more quickly but if anyone has more experience in this field and feels strongly about alternatives being marketed and supplied to a greater extent, perhaps they could do a bit of lobbying too.
Meeely2...Not Mothercare or Halfords as far as Ive found. I'd like to be able to buy one and have an trained fitter to make sure I get it absolutely right....but have to travel 150 miles to Milton Keynes for this at the moment...Guess I should be glad I have that Option I suppose...
Meely, as far as I undersyand it, you cannot (actually, must not) keep a two-way seat rear facing after the weight the manufacturer specifies. the seat has not been tested past that weight, and may not protect your child in a crash.
so you are lobbying the government to make these seats more available in shops not just on tinternet?
Could you not buy on the internet and have halfords fit it? Is this really worth bothering the MP for?
I've not found fitting a car seat very hard though myself so have always bought seats off internet....
I could understand your plight if these seats were not available anywhere in the UK, but just because you haven't got a shop local to yourself, seems a bit extreme to me....sorry
MrsAki, yo can get them through volvo dealers (as I did) and, I believe, through saab dealers as well.
However, you do have to do a lot of digging to find them (not even shown on websites, and dealership staff not always up to speed on car seats) so I agree more info needed (sorry for abruptness, wriggly baby on lap)
silverfrog, why would it be less effective rear facing than forward facing if it's designed to hold a child up to 4 years old? It's doing the same job and as far as we've discussed on here it's safer in the rear facing position.
Meeely, you can NOT keep your seat rear facing after the child has reached the weigh limit as they are not tested to support that weight and if something happened to you or your child your insurance would not be valid! I have checked this with experts that have been working in this area for over 40 years. DO NOT keep rear facing after reaching the weight limit.
the seats you linked t, Meeely, are not sold as rear-facing pas 10kgs.
in testing during manufacture, they are tested for the weight they carry in each of the positions they are designed to fit in (I do nt own one of those seats, so have no idea how they fit seat-belt wise, but presume it is slightly different routing for rear and forward facing)
in the event of a crash, if you have the seat fitted rear facing and your childis over 10kg, then the seat integrity may not hold, and the seat will not do the job you expect.
The seats we are talking about here are seats which are designed as rear facing only, not seats which should be forwrd facing, but have been fitted (incorrectly, if past a certain weight) rear facing
Pixi - I found them when i first started looking when I was pregs, cos i do all my browsing online. Then found it was twins, so went with baby carriers in the end which clipped into buggy instead of the combination rearward/forward facing seats (personal choice).
Meeely, you are linking to a completely different type of seat.
There are seats readily available in the UK that let you keep your child rear facing up to 13kg (either a 0+ or some stage 1 seats which are combi rear/forward facing)
There is currently NO easy way in the Uk to get a seat which keeps a child rear facing until 18kg.
About fitting a seat that you but off the tinternet... I spent a morning with Road Safety Officers from Essex who checked car seats at a fire station in Basingstoke. While I was there, not a single seat was installed correctly! Not a single one. Statistics for the UK states that 7 out of 10 seats are installed incorrectly. To buy from tinternet and install yourself could be very dangerout unless you know what you are doing. As anyone who has visited www.rearfacing.co.uk will know, I am well aware that you can buy rear facing seats from Milton Keynes, Volvo, Saab, Recaro's sites and you can import them from Sweden via www.toddler.se but in regards to the above, what I am after is to have them in all the high street shops so that every parent would have the choice to buy the safest possible seat for their children.
Can't expect Halfords etc to know any more than me if they don't stock the product, and given that incorrectly fitted seats are the reasons for most (sorry haven't time to dig up current stats.) injuries I'm quite happy to be a bit OTT on this.
I just want more people to know about them as then they would have the choice...no harm in that and if one less child was injured I wouldn't consider raising awareness and getting them in the high street extreme. How did you hear as glad to find out that some marketing is working
if we had two rear facing seats for the boys now we'd need a much bigger car - simply can't afford it, so I guess they will just have to travel in a more dangerous way - perhaps if I was rich they would be safer - hey ho.
er, silverfrog, I have a pug 206 and a very tall/big dh who drives with seat almost in boot, so forward facing seat behind him struggles - when the boys were in baby carriers we couldn't fit one behind him so one would be in front with airbag switched off and other would be behind that - I would be squashed in behind DH.
Legroom / car size is an issue for them if you have to either have two or for some reason have to have it behind the driver seat. I have a peageot 206 and it's fine behind the driver's seat when I drive (I'm a shortarse) but gets a bit cramped with DH. Here's a link to the one I have if anyone's interested in seeing them. incarsafetycentre.co.uk/shop/special_br_07.html The fitting is quite different and does need to be shown, so not ideal to get off internet.
Rear facing seats are standard in Norway and Sweden for instance. I can guarantee you that not everyone in these contries have enormous cars! www.hts.no/svenska/pdf/izikid.pdf If you look at page 16 in this PDF you will see all the cars the BeSafe Izi Kid will fit in, and you find most small cars in there.
I understand that for some people this is a new and strange concept, but for my part, I will do anything to keep my child safe in the car and in this case, when the product exist, just not on the UK high streets, it is such a simple thing to do. You have two types of seat; choose the safer one...
i kid yee not, there is an inch gap between edge of back seat and the back of dh's seat when he drives - he has it right back on the runners. I can guarentee the makers of these cars seats will say it fits in a pug 206 because it will if front setas are pushed forward, but they don't take into consideration tall drivers.
Anyhoo, we won't be buying two new seats at this stage anyway, so I guess no point fretting over it.
STAGE 1 car seats, using the accepted ROSPA standard in the UK, are for Group 0 (babies up to 10 kgs/22 lbs, roughly from birth to 6-9 months) or Group 0+ (babies up to 13kg/29lbs, roughly from birth to 12-15 months)
ThesearereadilyavailableintheUK!
You are not using the correct terminology in your petition and it therefore does not make sense.
Hi, I work for a retailer that advises and sells car seats. I struggle, along with many of my colleagues, to get people to keep their babies in rear facing car seats until they get to the minimum forward facing criteria. I get called "stupid cow" if I tell them that it is not safe or appropriate for a 5 month old to go forward facing even if he is twenty pounds. Much of the attitude in the UK (that I've come across) is that the child is godlike and if he grizzles when he faces rearwards, turn him around- it won't do any harm. All I can say is I really hope these particular people don't have to find out the hard way. I have in the past refused to sell group 1 car seat to a couple whose 4 month old (12lbs)"Didn't like going in his car seat". Can you imagine the abuse we would get trying to tell them to keep Junior facing the back of the car till they were over 3 years? Personally, I am in favour of rear facing till a later stage and would very much like the law to become even stricter than it is.
Differentid - I'm a big fan of rear facing seats, ds is currently nearly 5 months old and we have an Graco autobaby car seat base (one in each car), and I think the seat is a Group 0 - one that goes up to 9kg. When ds is too big for that seat, is it possible to buy the next stage seat which would fit on that seat base? If so, where would i get them from? TIA
I think the biggest problem is that people simply don't have the information and statistics that rearfacing is safer here in the UK. I only know about it because I am from Sweden.
BouncingTurtle (fab name). Check out www.rearfacing.co.uk and www.incarsafetycentre in Milton Keynes for now....Will do proper links later..in the middle of tea!
That really is shocking differentID. My ds1 was in a rearfacing car seat until he was over 5 year old. We don't have a car now, but we do still have rear-facing seats and I insist on my children travelling in them is travelling in other peoples cars. I am completely obsessed with car safety. I know too much to ignore it.
The Graco autobaby is a group 0+ seat- 13kg- and he should remain in it till his head is at the very top of the back of the car seat or he weighs 13kg. FairyMum, when I was Britax car seat trained not so long ago, my trainer mentioned that he personally thought Sweden had it very right. It's the challenge of making the Great British Public see that. I would love to be able to show customers crash tests in store when they buy a seat and explain why, very bluntly, they are foolish to go to the next stage before their child is ready; if I did that I would probably have complaints made about me to head office and a "chat" with my manager about appropriate customer service. It's a lose/lose situation for people in my position. Damned if you say it, feel like you're damned to eternal hell if you don't. Bouncing Turtle, do you mean when your DS gets to 9kg or 13kg?
Great you've joined this chat diff.id....Not convinced all parents want to go forward facing and I think the problem might be that the rear facing seats are still uncommon. Hopefully the rear facing campaign can help more people know that there is another option, and maybe new market research stating this might show that there is a market...everyone who I've spoken too is interested.
I've just double checked my car seat, I have the Autobaby Carseat which according to the website goes upto 13kg, so wouldn't need to move him up until he reaches this weight. So got plenty of time! Hopefully Babyworld will be stocking the next size up Graco seat by the time he reaches that weight (he is 6kgs).
I really wish that rear facing seats were more widespread. The crash test stuff that you do see is horrific.
I had to leave dd2 with a childminder last week, and as I dropped her off I made sure that the CM had a baby seat for her - "oh, is she still in one of those?" says CM (dd2 is 15 months, but only weighs 16lb - she is tiny)
"isn't she bored of facing backwards?" she said, "my ds was making a fuss by the time he was 8 months, and as he was over 20lb, I changed him around"
sadly, this is not the first time I've heard similar.
My own stepchildren think I'm some weird paranoid freak because dd1 was still rearfacing until recently, as their cousins (similar age to dd1) are all forward facing...
I wish the info was out there for pepople to make a proper, informed, choice.
The Four most commonly heard comments from customers 1. He's old enough now, he's 6/7/8/9 months. So which car seat does he go in next ? Is it that one?(Customer points to high back booster) 2. His feet touch the back of the car- he's too long for it now (Child commonly has half the length of the seat to grow before his head gets anywhere near the top) 3. He gets bored facing the back( then get him something to play with on journey) 4. I can't loosen the straps any more and he's all squashed in.( Child in question is 6 months old and is wearing what appears to be 5 layers of clothes. Advise customer to take outer layers off, response is usually "but he'll get cold". (This was just over a fortnight ago by the way)I just wanted to reply better a cold baby than a badly injured one, but I bit my tongue just in time- the customer didn't seem to realise she could speak to me quietly and had talked at me rather than with me the whole time) These are just the commonest ones. No I agree not all parents want to go forward facing, but the vast majority of people whom I speak to on a daily basis, do. Those who keep their little ones rear facing for as long as possible are to be commended, and I will always say to them if they are little unsure that they have done the best for their children by keeping them rear facing. I agree that maybe if group 1 rear facing seats became common, the G-B-P would accept them more but would then moan about the price
Diff.id that is so scarey....there are alot of very ill informed people out there. You sound very good at your job and it sounds so frustrating at times.
Regarding the price, would there really be a massive difference once the export and then re-importing and delivery costs are taken away? I don't know which is most popular at the moment, but people who are choosing the 'safest' in Mothercare are paying around £180 I think. That's £20 less than a rearfacing....(Still alot of money I know, but there are many many ways to cost cut with children and for me this isn't one of them)
rearfacing car seats are produced here in the UK, but not sold in the UK as I understand it. Its exported to the Scandinavian market from the uk, but they don't think its a market for them here. I agree the British public is generally really hard to educate. They often have this thing about the "nanny state" and I think would ignore the facts and thinks "health and safety gone mad" or blame Gordon Brown. Oh, I don't know. Just seems the British public is very suspicious when it comes to being informed.
We use Isofix seats, and the number of people who have said to me "oh, but they're so expensive" while I just sit there and smile sweetly (and cancel all thoughts of a night out any time soon due to high cost of car seat)
I aree with you, Pixiepants, for me this is not an area that I will compromise on.
For us, using isofix actually worked out well, as we bought the britax infant carrier and base, and then dd1's rear facing 9-18kg seat fitted on to the same base, so we just needed to buy a new seat unit (half the cost)
The main issue, I think, is the fact that because so few people are aware these items exist, even fewer are prepared to purchase them. Because it isn't legally required, the vast majority of people (sheep, I say) are only willing to do the minimum required by law, and even then they begrudge it. If the rear facing ones became more readily available, and company's became less scared of customers reactions to being told the plain truth then maybe, just maybe, change could be effected. Personally, I believe that it should be a legal requirement for all parents-to-be to have as part of their ante-natal instruction a session on infant safety- focusing on car and travel safety. even if it's just one extra half hour session where the reasons behind the thinking could be explained. That's where the problem lies. Spoon feeding information is dangerous- people should be discussing cause and effect and I don't believe lectures are an effective way of disseminating vital information. Unfortunately time and budget constraints on midwives and health visitors mean that many unsure parents don't ask or feel unable to ask questions about things like this- especially if they are feeling particularly vulnerable and may be too shy to approach a confident sales adviser.
In sweden we have road safety organisations who advice on these things. Its just simple facts and recommendations. You will not be taken out and shot in Sweden if you have a forward facing seat, although I am not sure if they are readily available to buy because everyone knows what is safest. I do think advice and recommendations are often perceived as lecturing in this country though.
Hi FairyMum! In Sweden, if a shop starts to sell forward facing seat, the work group that looks at car safety (the leader is one of my main sources of information) will go to the shop in question and take the seats of the shelves. But as more and more people buy car seats online and forward facing seats are cheaper ... well, I don't need to continue do I? Some people are idiots.
Hi Pixiepants - I'm a fellow rear car seat user (well dd was - she's now outgrown hers). We went to the In Car Safety Centre in MK as they were recommended to us; dd has CP and I felt she didn't have enough head control to be forward facing at nine months.
I'm now a total convert - the car seat was soooo much better locked down to the car than any forward facing seat we've used.
I agree it's madness that these seats aren't more freely available. Will sign your petition
Thanks chonky, but can't take credit for the petition...thats MrsAki.
Hoping positive comments like yours will encourage a few more people to approach shops and manufactures requesting them to supply them as well as forward facing.
In reply to SaintGeorge who think the wording is wrong. I am at the moment changing all mentions of "stage" to "group" on the rearfacing website. I can't change the petition, so I have 3 alternative suggestions for you. 1. Just sign it anyway and then let the matter go. 2. Create a new petition with better wording and post us the link. I will sign your petition as well. 3. Ignore the petition completely.
I agree with Pixiepants and others that the wider picture is the important thing here, i.e. to keep our children safe in the car. If the wording is such a problem to you that it gets on your nerves, just don't look at it.
Brilliant MrsAki , and, as I like to keep the peace....Appreciate that you took the time to point out the finer details SaintGeorge. I know sometimes, very sadly, these factors can get in the way of progress.
Loving this thread. We have a rear faceing seat for our DS he is now 2.9, we got it from Volvo, and found out about it from some junk mail that volvo sent us, so they are trying to get the message out there. The chaps at Volvo fitted it for us, so we know that it is correctly fitted too. They go on a course about the seat where they get to wear a helmet that makes their heads the same weight as a babies, which is about 25% of their weight, and the chap told me that he could hardly lift his head, now imagine that being thrown forward in a crash. We have no trouble with DS travelling in it, he has a forward facing seat in our LR, so he knows you can travel the other way, and as for some of the comments about where their legs go, i am pleased to tell you that my son has knees and is not afraid to use them, The seat was not that much more money than the forward facing seat either unless you buy the volvo to go with it as we did!!! Go buy one today.
And I am just trying to be helpful by informing parents in this country that their children could travel safer in the car. I could not have bothered and just got my own child a mega safe seat and not given a flying monkey about anyone else but instead I spent every night in front of my computer, writing leaflets, updating my website, writing to experts, manufacturers, road safety officers, parent organisations, newspapers, authorities and the like to try to make sure that your children and grandchildren are as safe in the car as my little monkey. I do appreciate your help and as I said, I am now changing the wording on my whole website, but they way you said it, it didn't sound like helpfulness. Enough about that. I send you kisses for correcting me. I will never say stage again when I mean group.
...and thank you, one person, if you were from here. 
A spokesperson from Brittax told me today that the reason they don't manufacture for the UK is that UK parents/carers don't want this product. Personally I didn't know it/they existed 3 weeks ago 
Did you? 
then there's even more reason to inform parents/carers that there is another 'safer' option which Britax (other manufactures?) think they don't want. That way people can choose to contact the manufactures and retailers to see if they might consider selling them in more shops. 
