Yup, perfectly reasonable to ask the question and express the worry. But unreasonable not to take on board the alternative suggestions and points of view being made on here!

'being self employed makes no difference. SPL is naff all. It's the same as being self employed i think. You still lose half a months wage and when that is the only bill coming in then thats a hell of a lot of money.'

Totally disagree with this. SPL is not good but even if you took 2 week unpaid then all you would be losing is 2 weeks wages. If you are self employed then you lose two weeks gross income. You lose the customers who go elsewhere and may never come back. You still have to pay (in our case) rent, rates, electricity, refuse collection and the wages of all the employees unless you want to piss them off by insisting that they take holiday at the totally random time that coincides with the birth rather than when they want to take it. You also lose money in the run up as you try to adjust stock and prevent wastage whilst you are closed. It costs thousands to close for 2 weeks.

If you take time off work then you don't get paid but when you get back they don't present you with a bill for the cleaning of the office that still happened when you were away and the secretary who wasn't as busy but still needed to be employed and the computer system that was still maintained and the subsidised canteen that lost a customer. All these things cost money and the employer absorbs the cost. If you are the employer then you may decide you can't afford it

If the MIL is the practical and helpful type, and he is self employed, I think its a pretty good option for him to take paternity leave when his work allows.

Obviously self employed women are not able to be as flexible about their maternity leave!

You can care about your friend without attacking her dh for trying to keep his business alive and a roof over their heads. People have explained again and again what it's like being self-employed but you are refusing to listen.

My DH went back to work the day after I had my DD. He is self employed too and we are not hard up BUT if he didn't work we would be as his custoerms would go elsewhere. If my DH took 2 weeks paternity leave we would be screwed! Of course it depends what industry you work in, my DH is in IT and primarily fixes things when things go wrong so if he didn't do that his custoemrs would be well peed off, baby or not.

If she were my friend, I'd volunteer to help her rather than wonder why her husband wasn't able to take off work. I'd assume there were reasons why.

Of course you can care for your friend but you have come on here and called her DH a selfish $&**$& which I think is a bit unfair.

Oh, you're perfectly reasonable to post your worries about her, but calling him a selfish ** beccause he doesn't want to lose out on money for his family is unreasonable, imho!

The thread title is 'Am I Being Unreasonable?'. Unfortuntly sometimes you get an answer you don't want

Well, you did put it in the AIBU topic, so if people thought you were being unreasonable, I think they are allowed to say so....

I do understand you feeling protective of your friend, but if she's ok with it and has MIL to help then surely it's her business?

do you like her DH normally?

But you asked if he were being unreasonable.

People said no, considering he's self-employed and she's got her MIL to help.

Sorry that should be care about my friend.

So let me get this straight. I am not allowed to care for my friend and post my worries on here? FFS.

and, yes, SPL is not much money at all.

My friend's dh is self-employed and has no ttaken paternity leave because of the money and I totally understand! no work = no money.

being self employed makes no difference. SPL is naff all. It's the same as being self employed i think. You still lose half a months wage and when that is the only bill coming in then thats a hell of a lot of money.

Sorry we are too pampered nowadays...

That makes more sense

Years ago men never took time off when the baby was born, they weren't even allowed in the birth!

I guess perternity leave is a new thing though that people think they can't live without, like M&T parking... i mean what on earth did people do without these things? They just got on with life that's what. We are too pampered too nowadays...

Why the assumption that a CS is necessarily much worse than a vaginal birth? I was in much better shape after my emergency Caesarian than after "natural" birth (heavy blood loss and fanjo like a 4yo's cross-stitch sampler).

But this was in the days before extended paternity leave, so dh (working for the council) had his 2 days and that was it.

My dh is self employed and didn't take any time off for any of my dcs births. We can't afford to close down as we would still have to pay rent and all the wages which would come to about £4000 per week. Its not just about loss of income. My MIL came to help me every day. He is a wonderful husband and father and we are a very happy family is spite of never having a holiday and dh working 60-70 hours a week. Being self employed doesn't make you a selfish twat.

Message withdrawn

agree mssparkle. Also, times may be tougher than even the new mum knows about and her DH is keeping it from her so she doesn't worry

GordontheGopher i think until either yourself or your partner have been self-employed, you wouldn't understand their predicament. It's probably not all about the money, although you don't know that for sure. But as my dp is self-employed i understand that it's not about money, it's about keeping your business alive and running which is what i'm sure this man is trying to do.

For men going back to work so soon because they are self-employed is not just "an excuse," it's very nessissary. If he did take two weeks off and the business suffered big time for it, i'm sure that would be far worse on their livelyhoods in the long run.

Also, if htis friend lives near you, perhaps offer to help her?

Message withdrawn

YABU, and more to the point, its none of your beeswax either!

I ma having a c section in 5 weeks, we run a business, we have closed for a week but will have to start again 1 week after section, if we don't we can't eat pay bills etc.

If he's self employed then he really may have no choice, the economic climate is pretty scary and he is probably desperate to earn enough money for his family. I think if she has her MIL there then that's fair.

Squonk has a good point. If I were your friend I would be pissed off that you were posting about me.

My DH was straight back at work and I found it hurtful when people commented on this he is self employeed - we cant even take a holiday without mobile going. I know this isn't how everyone wants to live but we have made our choice and respect that others make theirs.

I agree with others people can seem to have no money worries but actualy have and dont want everyone knowing (money is a very private thing)

In an ideal world, everyone would able to take the maternity/paternity leave they require, complete with whatever help/assistance they need.

It's not an ideal world.

When I had my first baby, I moved away from my husband for six months (the last three months of the pregnancy and the first three months after our son arrived) simply because my husband was in a stressful, busy, high-pressured job that could not guarantee paternity leave. Both of thought that I would be better off living with my mother and father, thus allowing my husband to concentrate on his work without worrying about me. As it happened, he managed to get paternity leave but that was due to luck rather than any sort of planning on our part!

I had an elective section for complex medical reasons and it was a hairy first few days. I can't say that either of us are disappointed or let down by what happened - mu husband was there as much as he could be and I had all the support and love from my family that a first-time Mum could wish for.

I'm expecting again and, once more, my husband's job might dictate that paternity leave is not available for us, at least not covering the birth (which he won't be present for anyway).

We made the decision for me to settle permanently near my parents and my husband now commutes on a weekly/fortnightly (depending on work committments) basis from his job. So, once more, I have lots of support around me as I face another difficult birth, this time with a toddler running around.

Without knowing the ins and outs of the OP's friend's situation, it's hard for me to say that her husband is being a selfish git or not. Yes, the friend may be a little disappointed that he's not taking paternity leave, given that she's having some complications, but perhaps their arrangements were made for the best considering what outside pressures the husband might be under.

However, I do think the OP is being a little unreasonable to judge so harshly.

He may have business debts people don't know about.

Or, as he is self-employed, he may be in the busiest season of the year and need to work to the max to increase profits to live on.

My dp is self employed and certainly can't afford to take paternity leave. Nor can we take holidays. Just be thankful you're not in that position

yes he may be desperate not to spend too much time with his mother

He might be planning on having time off when MIL has gone. She wont be there for ever I presume ?

I'd be happy for my DH to do this if the circumstances were the same.

And the MIL is staying to help, too.

She won't be on her own.

can I just ask, in a non-inflammatory way (if that is even possible on MN ) what has it got to do with you? Is your mate very upset about it, or is it you that is upset?

It's not a possibility for all fathers, financially or logistically.

I think it's a bit hypocritcal and hypercritical to expect one parent to shoulder the entire burden of breadwinning and still be expected to be as present and accommodating to the stay at home parent.

If it's going to be that much of a problem, then space your children out a bit more so the older one is in school or nursery or a bit more independent before having another one.

Running a family is the responsibility of BOTH - the earner and the stay at home parent.

My DH couldn't afford to take unpaid paternity leave but fortunately his company offered to pay him and so he could.

We don't seem to have money worries but we couldn't afford to lose 2 weeks wages and maybe your friend's DH couldn't either!!

YABU.

Is your friend upset about it? Cause if she isn't, then I think you probably ABU. My DH is self employed and he had to make superhuman efforts to take two weeks when DS was born, and it cost him a lot, financially.

and sometimes people look like they're doing well financially on the surface but aren't really as well off as they seem.

I think you'll find that most of us do appreciate that c-sections are major surgery.

I wouldn't be happy about being in your friend's situation, but I would have to accept that that's just the way life is.

"He's self-employed so doesn't get statutory paternity pay. They are not hard up by any means. "
you say it yourself, it's not that he is not taking paternity leave, he is not even being offered it.
his business could be completely reliant on a customer satisfaction and repeat business and so being unavailable for work for weeks could cost him a lot of customers.

DP is self employed and I know that it is very difficult indeed for him to take time off; it is not the matter of money, but the fact that what he does is pretty specialised and his workers are simply not able to complete the work to a high standard in his absence (added to the fact he is a perfectionist and cannot delegate, but that's a whole other thread)

I honestly don't think the issue is that much of a problem, you friend has another adult to help, doesn't she? And as other have said, you really don't know their complete situation so it is unfair to judge.

I recently had surgery and had to rely on MIL and friends as DH couldnt take time off.

If he hadnt arranged for MIL to help then you may have a point but as it stands then I still think YABU

Thanks nametaken you seem to be the only one who's recognised that!

my self employed dh booked off 4 weeks from my due date: it ran in to christmas/ new year so was easier to do than at another time of year. DD arrived by emCS 15 days late. 2 weeks of possible work wasted, which few people can afford. He ceratinly won't do the same thing if we have another child.

YABU IMHO. You cannot predict when babies arrive or how they will arrive. At least they organised a contingency plan with the MIL being around to help.

my dh is self employed and didn't take paternity leave when either of our dc's were born. nothing to do with money, he had deadlines to meet and a reputation to maintain.

If she had had a normal birth I would say that YABU - but as you say she had an emergency c-section that I think he should have taken at least another week off.

People forget that c-sections are major abdominal surgery.

When your family are dependent on just one person's self employment earnings you can wind up in financial trouble very quickly if work dried up and there is a distinct likelihood of a recession on the way so don't jump in criticising unless you've tried the roller coaster of self-employment yourself.

I wouldn't judge harshly I'd be grateful for my own financial security.

I would guess that his drive to keep the business operating fairly normally is underpinned by the knowledge that he may have lean times ahead and he is the sole earner so he can't afford to annoy customers/clients with a "Sorry, nothing happening for the next 2 weeks, I've become a father for the second time".

It's not about earning the money now, it's about trying to ensure that there is a steady stream of income in the future.

think DH was off for a week, maybe 2. i was glad to see him out the door, to be honest. he was just getting in the way and faffing a lot. MIL will probably be more help to your friend if her DH is anything like mine.

When I had my eldest, I came home on wednesday afternoon, whilst ex-p was at work, he was back at work on thursday morning.
With my 2nd, I had him on wednesday, came home thursday afternoon, ex-pwas back at work friday morning. (he only worked 1/2 day on friday!)
Both times, my mum helped out for a few days. Didn't bother any of us, I don't think you got paternity pay back then

If you were an outsider of our family, you would look at us and think "they aren't hard up."

We are not hard up no but only because we work as hard as we do. If we didn't work like we do, we would be in deep shit and fast.

Same thing with my dh - only 2 days off and then back to work. He is self employed too. And we are definitely "by no means hard up" either. In my case my mum came to help. I didn't mind really given that mum was around to assist - does you friend not get along with her MIL?

I'm with UQD on this.

We dont know enough to judge here. Just because you say they have no worries doesnt mean its the case. He may have work committments he cant get out of and without know his job it is impossible to say.

She had an emergency c section so it may be sooner than anticipated. Perhaps he plans to take time off in 6 weeks time when the exhaustion will really be hitting.

He has got his mother over to help too.

If your friend is unhappy about this then they need to sort it out.

The birth of a new baby doesn't stop red bills dropping onto the mat or customers getting what they need elsewhere.

Oh btw, I too had had a CS, so it wasnt as if I was really up and about.

I came hoem from hospital three weeks ago with my new baby, my third child, I also have a7yr old and a 3yr old.
I left hospital on the friday, dp was back at work by monday, he is employed, he could have got stat paternity pay (Which is still shit and unaffordable but that's a dfferent matter)
He went back to work because he has clients to deal with on a daily basis, he has three deadlines a week he has to meet and have things checked over by these clients, if he doesn;t do it, no-one does, and he then loses his clients, or things fuck up with their business.
Not all jobs lend themselves to having two weeks off after a birth. Thankfully he took a week of half days, but as this wasn't covered under pat leave he had to use his holiday, so had to book it in advance and actually had one week of half days the week I was due, I had the baby at 41 weeks so that was a waste of time being off.

motherinferior, i imagine it's a lot easier for a woman to tell clients etc that she is taking leave on X dates because she is the one giving birth. For a man it's a different ball game all together.

I'm not saying, btw, that this particular bloke either could or should have done this. I am trying to make the point that this is what women do. Speaking as someone who has funded two - set, clear and stated - periods of maternity leave.

I don't know, i doubt they can?

When I had dd2, we were both self-employed.

Not only did dp go back to work immediately, but I worked a full shift whilst in labour, and I was back working the day after I came out of hospital.

It's not just that you don't get paid when you don't work, but you lose customers who go to your rivals and never come back. It takes a bloody long time to recoup that business, so even if it looks from the outside that they can afford to take some time off, in reality, if he did stay at home for a few weeks, he would have lost so much work that he may not have a business to go back to.

DP didn';t take paternity leave when I had DS2 - he had about 3 or 4 days off as holiday, and I had no help and I had a CS and a 20 month old toddler to look after

it#s the way of the world.

If he had taken PL, we would have liost several hundreds of pounds, if not 1000s.

It's not ideal no, but I think your anger is wrongly directed tbh.

Exactly - the assumption that he is glad to get away is a harsh one if nothing else. I doubt he feels totally happy about it, but it's work.

Cestlavie, pregnant women say to their clients and customers that they will be on leave for a specific period!

MsSparkle I'm talking about people who are not in the UK.

But if someone is self employed, how can the law stop them from working?

GG, as many people have said on this thread, he may have no choice about going back to work. It may very well not be a case of putting money before his wife or shirking his responsibility. Having been self employed and knowing many people who are you have clients and commitments that only you can fulfil. What do you say to clients? "The baby's due in mid May so I can't take on any work for that month and I'll have to stop any work that's happening at that time if the baby arrives early"? Do you think those clients and customers wait around for you?

To be honest, it sounds like you're pissed off as much because you're having to help out as anything else. I doubt he's thrilled about the situation either.

I may be wrong but i thought it was illigal to go back to work a week after the birth for mothers? I thought they had to take a certain amount of time off?

I think we are being overly speculative here, tbh. From my pov, I did turn down work in the fortnight before my baby was due, and could in theory have lost (more) money as a result: it did suddenly strike me I could have been an additional month out of pocket. (As it happened, I went into labour before both due dates.)

I knwo some self employed women who have been working again within a week of giving birth. If they don't want to loss business, they don't have much choice.

I know my dp wanted to spend time with me and the baby at home but sadly he didn't have the choice.

sorry that was answer to motherinferior's point

Well, not if he didn't know for sure when the baby was coming. And even if he did, he wouldn't have turned down work in the 2 weeks before just in case.

Message withdrawn

Being self-employed isn't always just about the money. A small business could break down if the boss took two weeks off.

Yes, UD, but he could have calculated this into his plans and saved for it, I think.

Which is what I did, for both my maternity leaves, as a self-employed parent. (I paid for them fully myself, too, with no financial assistance from my partner. Cost me several grand for each four-month leave.)

without knowing her DH's work circumstances it is very hard to judge. My assumption would be that he can't take time off now but may be able to do so in the future.

e.g.
if he's a roofer he can't leave someone with a hole in their roof for a couple of weeks

if he's an accountant people may need their accounts NOW, not in 2 weeks

if he runs a shop he may not have anyone to mind it

etc.

When my dd was born, we had a selfish baker who went off "sick" for two weeks out of spite (long story.) So not only did my dp have to do his own work but he had to fill in and do the bakers jobs as well. It was a really hard time for us.

I've just said that she's not happy. I'd rather not disclose his job - have given away too much info already.

On one contract dh's boss was very pleased I had the baby on a Sunday! Dh was back at work the next day.

If he hadn't gone back then, he wouldn't have been paid, may have lost the contract - no money coming in and NO chance of benefits - and the company he worked for would have lost a LOT of money for not completing their contract on time.

It's not as easy as you think Ruby.

Why are you cross on your friend's behalf? The point is: is she cross?

If not, it really is no business of yours.

YABU unless you see their bank statements you do not know that they are 'well off'
When you are self employed and take 2 weeks off work it is not always 'just' the case of losing 2 weeks pay. He could lose out a lot more long term if he messes clents around or cancels jobs etc.

I was in hospital with ds1 from monday and he was finally born on the thursday. we cam home from hosp fri night and dh had to go back to work on the monday as he'd already had his week paternity leave through the long labour!
Such is life.

GordontheGopher, what is her dp's job?

I think it's unfair to say that's he's putting money before his wife. After all, he is earning money for his family presumably. And he may not want to let customers down by taking unplanned time off - after all you can't plan when the birth is going to be - you can't even plan it to the nearest month sometimes!

As I said, he presumably knew his wife was going to have this baby. In our case, we sacrificed our holiday to have some paternity leave. This was planned.

I don't care whether her dh was at home or not, but I do think I would like my dh around for a day or so.

No she's not happy that he has gone back. She had a c-section and her scar is rupturing and cannot do anything. We are helping her out as much as possible - taking the son for her etc, but surely this is her dh's responsibility?

Yuck - contracts, ffs.

The type of contract's dh has and the phase of the contract, dictates when he can take holidays.

NOT in the end phase, NOT during testing, NOT during a factory shutdown etc, etc.

Message withdrawn

RubyRioja, my dp runs a small bakery. He shuts the shop for a week at Easter, a week at Christmas and two weeks in the summer. If he didn't close the shop he wouldn't get a holiday. Not all selp-employed people can just take time off.

my dh went back to work the day after dd2 was born - even though we had a 2 yo with sn and I was in hospital for five days after a c-section. Thankfully my SIL was able to come and look after my dd1 and her dd1 and newborn dd2 at my mother's house whilst I was in hospital BUT after that - I was on my own.

I came home after 5 days - he still had no time off. I had an almost 2 1/2 sn child who was not walking who needed to get to therapy and have therapy done at home, carried places. I also had a newborn AND no one to help me - no MIL nobody and you know what - I just got on with it.

Sometimes life is tough - choices are made and people just get on with it.

I do not see why you are so bothered by it - she has another adult to help and her husband is able to continue keeping his business going.

dh took a month off when the boys were born and i still cried when he went back.

We don't know, though - maybe he has contracts to finish and he will be having some time off later. If he can have a couple of weeks off at some point, is it less useful to have it when the baby is 3 weeks or 3 months, rather than 3 days? I don't think so.

Let's be honest, most dads feel guilty about this and are caught in the trap of having to work. If someone seems "well-off" it may well be that this is because they have always worked sensibly and they can't just stop when they choose.

He might need to work to pay the bills & will take time off when mil isn't there.

I would imagine that the husband knew this baby would be arriving at some point and plan accordingly. I am amazed at how some fathers avoid spending time with their family.

I daresay he is using the presence of MIL to give him an 'out'.

I am not saying he should have 2 weeks off, but you would think he would manage a day off ffs.

IME most self-employed people do manage the occasional holiday.

YABU

If he won't get paid or work commitments won't be met if he's not there to do them then I can fully understand it.

Plus his mum is staying to help - maybe he'll manage to take some time off in a week / a few weeks when his mum has to go back. But maybe he won't - either way its up to him and his wife what works for them.

Don't be so quick to judge just because it wouldn't be right for your family.

What's his line of work, GordontheGopher?

It does sound as if he has taken this into wccount, which is why the MIL is there.

YABU. Dh went back to work just as quickly too.

Self-employment's a bitch.

Dd3 came home from hospital on the friday and dp went back to work on the monday, i had 3 under 5 and school walk to do, this time im insisting he has paternity leave, i cannot have 4 under 6 and no help!!

No, it might very well not be a case of simply putting money before this wife. If you're self employed or have a small business you are likely to have clients and/ or commitments that are dependent on you fulfilling them. If you don't fulfil them, you lose customers and your business suffers in the longer term.

I think it is fair to say that as he is self employed, he needs to work because he wil lnot get paid time off, However, to look at this from the POV of the OP, a baby arriving is not exactly a last minute surprise. You would think that they would have taken this into account so she was not alone.

Of course, we do not know their circumstances. Maybe she is happy to have her MIL stay?

Is she upset by it or is it just you?

I think the fact that her MIL is helping is adequate tbh, he may be able to take some time off later when the additional help isnt available.

I don't know what sort of work he does but it could be that he loses custom if he takes time off unexpectantly.

I know in the US fathers often don't get any paternity leave, whatever the circumstances.

dh went back to work after d was born, tbh, i dont even remember when.
but. dmother left to go back to work when she was 8 days old. and when he went to work on day nine, i went berserk. how could he leave me on my own? with newborn, 18 months old, and five year old?
i would rather have dmother, than dh any day.

yabu as he is self-employed he could be ruining business rep. losing biz etc. by taking time off now. so although they are financially secure now it could have a long term impact dependant on business.

upside he is self-employed so could he not just work shorter hours for a few weeks and be at home a bit more this is what my dh did.

self employed equals not being paid if you're not working. And how do you know they can afford for him to take unpaid holiday? Do you see their bank statements? know how much he earns? They might have a big house/flash car/go on three holidays a year but they could still be in debt up to their eyeballs.

yabu.

No GordontheGopher, your missing the point. He isn't putting money before his wife. He is probably like my dp and didn't have a choice but to go back if he runs the show.

YABU - DP went back to work when DD was about 14 hours old!!!

well his business may suffer if he is off work any longer

is your friend bothered? if not I don't see it being your concern tbh

YAB(slightly)U

Does she want him there? If I had one extra adult cluttering up the place helping, I might be quiet happy for dh to go back to work & save his paternity leave time for another time when I'd need it more. I sent dh back to work early after the birth of our second for exactly that reason. Not 2 days after though, i grant you - that does seem quick.

I can imagine taking time off if you're SE (as I am) is way harder than if you are in employment - if you let people down, that's YOUR customers lost etc.

And they are probably "not hard-up" because of the fact that he is a hard-working self-employed person?...

YABU. I brought my dd home on a Friday and my dp was back at work on Monday. He is selp-employed and if he could have taken two weeks paternity leave off he would be sadly this is the real world and he didn't have a choice to go back.

SO he's basically putting money before his wife. That's how I see it. And as I have said they do not have money worries.

DH went back to work the day I came out of hospital (DD was 1 day old). Was very hard but grew strong. With DD2 he stayed off work for a week so obviously that was better.

Obviously that sounds pretty bad on the face of it, but as UQD says, if he's self employed and the business is therefore dependent on him there may be mitigating circumstances. What's his job?

work commintments
If you are SE you don't get paid.
YABU

Oh I am for her. I had 3 easy no complications births and with my last 2 I was home within hours. I still couldn't have done without dh there in the first couple of weeks though.

It must be worse for her having had the c